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Old 08-13-2013, 01:33 PM   #101
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread. -

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Originally Posted by kguillou View Post
See, I dont know if anyone else feels this way but I kind of felt like MoS could have been a standalone film. I mean, yes, there were definitely threads to pick up on and follow through with, but on a whole this very much felt like its own epic. I think snyder and Goyer made this film with the thought that this could potentially be their only shot. This is very different from the marvel movies which all felt like pieces to a larger puzzle instead of their own standalone epic films. This is why I'm cool with this team up happening.
And that is what many worry about. MOS a stand-alone final (well last Superman film for a long time to come) Superman film with Superman used only in supporting roles in team films going forward. It makes some mad to consider the possibility that Bats and the others get stand-alones in the new cinematic DCU but not Superman. Hopefully Snyder will address this on his own or be asked about it at one of his public appearances.


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Old 08-13-2013, 01:37 PM   #102
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My point was that the studio has been trying for a very, very longtime to find an excuse to make this film work and happen but it always stalled and burnt out for some odd reasoning. Now with Marvel breaking the ice with their cross-over franchise's and the success of Man of Steel and the ending to Nolan's Bat franchise, they feel this was the perfect time to finally get the chance to do a Superman/Batman before it was too late. Though the before plans in the earlier decade didn't involve Nolan and co., WB always wanted to find the excuse to get this possibility as a reality. MOS was that possibility.



Exactly.



Maybe not, but as Marvin pointed out, before the release of MOS, Cavill and Snyder shot down the works of a Justice League film coming next in installment and that was that.

But, they were WIDELY talkative and chippy about Batman. In May, Cavill even made a point to go on about how awesome a Worlds Finest teammup would be if givin' a greenlight and Snyder pulled no punch's into revealing the Batman Easter Egg in an interview, all but confirming the Wayne Enterprise's logo before Man of Steel's release.

It just sounds to me like WB was banking on involving Superman/Batman one way or another givin' how MOS performed and givin' how Cavill shot down JL rumors, but was so open and talkative about Batman. Even a day before the SDCC announcement, Cavill was on the carpet and was asked about a Superman/Batman and he acknowledged, with a smile, how he'd be onboard.

The writing was there for a World's Finest all along, before MOS's release as well.
Just because the concept of "Batman and Superman in a movie together" has been around for years, doesn't mean they were planning this particualr film that whole time.

And again, all that any of that proves is that Cavill and Snyder wanted to do a Batman/Superman film someday, not that they wanted it for the next film.

But let's say I'm wrong and they totally planned this from the get-go. Then they're less sellouts and more incredibly stupid.

For a WF movie to work, both characters need to be well-established in their own worlds so that the culture clash makes sense and isn't a forced conflict.

Here, we have a half-developed, inexperienced Superman and a Batman we've never met before (who is, according to Goyer, also new on the scene). This means that either:

a) character development will be rushed so that Batman and Superman can fight in the first 30 minutes, then spend the rest of the movie doing stuff we don't care about because we have no idea who these guys are, OR

b) we'll have to sit through a bunch of boring character development in order to see what we came to see (a la Ang Lee's Hulk).

Either way, you have a fatal storytelling flaw just waiting to bring the whole thing down. For comparison, this would be like if, right after TIH, Marvel just made an Iron Man vs. Thor movie. You go from a cool fight scene to half-formed characters punching each other for ninety minutes.

You can't run without walking first; if you do, you end up right on your ass.

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Old 08-13-2013, 01:51 PM   #103
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread. -

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Just because the concept of "Batman and Superman in a movie together" has been around for years, doesn't mean they were planning this particualr film that whole time.

And again, all that any of that proves is that Cavill and Snyder wanted to do a Batman/Superman film someday, not that they wanted it for the next film.
So what you're saying is, speculation is none other than speculation. I'll give you that, but judging by how long WB wanted a Superman/Batman; how Cavill/Snyder spoke highly of the teammup and then WB announcing Superman/Batman as EARLY as SDCC with MOS still in theaters; let alone Wayne Enterprise's being seen in the movie, all points towards a Worlds Finest from the get-go. It's just.........all there.

When it's all said and done, who knows what plans were. I'm sure they had options on the table and were comfortable with either direction to announce something as soon as SDCC.

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(who is, according to Goyer, also new on the scene).
Other reports are conflicting and saying the studio wants a more polished and aged Batman, ala Josh Brolin, Joe M, etc. Can't jump to conclusions, it's still early. NOTHING we know as of yet.

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But let's say I'm wrong and they totally planned this from the get-go. Then they're less sellouts and more incredibly stupid.

a) character development will be rushed so that Batman and Superman can fight in the first 30 minutes, then spend the rest of the movie doing stuff we don't care about because we have no idea who these guys are, OR

b) we'll have to sit through a bunch of boring character development in order to see what we came to see (a la Ang Lee's Hulk).

Either way, you have a fatal storytelling flaw just waiting to bring the whole thing down. For comparison, this would be like if, right after TIH, Marvel just made an Iron Man vs. Thor movie. You go from a cool fight scene to half-formed characters punching each other for ninety minutes.

You can't run without walking first; if you do, you end up right on your ass.
So, you're pretty much saying this movie is going to bomb and you're not confident, no?

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Old 08-13-2013, 01:55 PM   #104
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread. -

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Are you afraid this is going to happen and shouldn't?

Or are you dreading their team up because Batman is superior and there is no point (not my personal opinion)?
I'm not opposed to Batman being better at some things than Superman. A good partnership and friendship usually come about because there is a balance in personalities, strengths, and weaknesses.

Because Superman is so powerful, and because Batman is human, I'm worried that they will go Batgod on us, which is just silly.

Batman is cool. But if they go too far, he will be irritating. Plus the urgency of the storytelling goes down if he has all the answers to everything and can do it all by himself.

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Old 08-13-2013, 01:57 PM   #105
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I'm not opposed to Batman being better at some things than Superman. A good partnership and friendship usually come about because there is a balance in personalities, strengths, and weaknesses.

Because Superman is so powerful, and because Batman is human, I'm worried that they will go Batgod on us, which is just silly.

Batman is cool. But if they go too far, he will be irritating. Plus the urgency of the storytelling goes down if he has all the answers to everything and can do it all by himself.
Agreed. I often find in Batman team up stories that writers have to dumb everyone down. I guess it makes sense since no writer can be as smart as Batman...

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Old 08-13-2013, 01:59 PM   #106
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread. -

I have to admit I'm getting more and more less interested in this right now. At least until we hear something more concrete as the rumours surrounding this are just ridiculous.

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Old 08-13-2013, 02:02 PM   #107
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Agreed. I often find in Batman team up stories that writers have to dumb everyone down. I guess it makes sense since no writer can be as smart as Batman...
Like I said, I love Batman. I just don't want them to go nuts with trying to make him super awesome to compensate against Superman.

Make him a genius, make him capable, but make sure we have an intelligent, thoughtful Clark.

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Old 08-13-2013, 02:03 PM   #108
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread. -

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I have to admit I'm getting more and more less interested in this right now. At least until we hear something more concrete as the rumours surrounding this are just ridiculous.
I can make up some new rumors for you, if you want.

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Old 08-13-2013, 02:04 PM   #109
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread. -

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I have to admit I'm getting more and more less interested in this right now. At least until we hear something more concrete as the rumours surrounding this are just ridiculous.
It's just begun! Though, MOS's wait was excruciating. Superman/Batman news, however, could come faster than expected and hopefully, more higher-ups will start talking up the hype machine. This is the calm before the storm....

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Old 08-13-2013, 02:06 PM   #110
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread. -

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b) we'll have to sit through a bunch of boring character development in order to see what we came to see (a la Ang Lee's Hulk).
I've never seen anyone twist such a thing into such a negative so quickly such as this.

Who knew that not only was character development so dreaded, but that it would always ways amount to a film like that hulk one.

Here's something to think about, even if batman is new on the scene, will he need as much set up with the GA into back story/origins/powers as say a Thor in 2011? Just curious.

And people, a batman that's intensely smart, enough to take on superman isn't all that far removed from a luthor that is capable of doing the same, however a smart batman is considered annoying(I know ledger would hate such a thing, so would bane), but a smart luthor is met with cheers?
No one is asking for Ozymandias(can't speak for everyone). And superman isn't Manhattan with all that omnipotence...

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Old 08-13-2013, 02:10 PM   #111
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread. -

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It's just begun! Though, MOS's wait was excruciating. Superman/Batman news, however, could come faster than expected and hopefully, more higher-ups will start talking up the hype machine. This is the calm before the storm....
Oh I know, believe me no one was more hyped than I was for MOS it wasn't just a film to me it was an event.

I'm just not that excited right now because I fear what this film will be, I don't like the fact that Batman is been pushed onto us in a Superman sequel at all and I fear that with the way Batman us seen right now they're just gonna make him get one over on Superman at every available chance.

So I'm definitely feel cautious until I start to hear concrete things.

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Old 08-13-2013, 02:16 PM   #112
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread. -

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Oh I know, believe me no one was more hyped than I was for MOS it wasn't just a film to me it was an event.

I'm just not that excited right now because I fear what this film will be, I don't like the fact that Batman is been pushed onto us in a Superman sequel at all and I fear that with the way Batman us seen right now they're just gonna make him get one over on Superman at every available chance.

So I'm definitely feel cautious until I start to hear concrete things.
It may sound that way on the surface with Batman because over the years, Superman lived in the shadow and all the bandwagon Bat fans were all like "LOL Superman sucks, Batman rocks, LOL" but you got to remain confident in context.

Not only was Snyder hired to bring Superman BACK, but his sole intentions was to bring Superman back to being COOL and takin' serious again. HE even said "I will NOT apologize for my Superman.." so, I don't think MOS2, a reality set in SUPERMAN'S world, will have Clark just be a pushover to the Bat-God. I think it could establish Supes back to the top and garner back respect. They just can't rip apart and bring something down to something they took so much time and effort to rebuild....

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Old 08-13-2013, 02:19 PM   #113
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread. -

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So what you're saying is, speculation is none other than speculation. I'll give you that, but judging by how long WB wanted a Superman/Batman; how Cavill/Snyder spoke highly of the teammup and then WB announcing Superman/Batman as EARLY as SDCC with MOS still in theaters; let alone Wayne Enterprise's being seen in the movie, all points towards a Worlds Finest from the get-go. It's just.........all there.

When it's all said and done, who knows what plans were. I'm sure they had options on the table and were comfortable with either direction to announce something as soon as SDCC.
Fair enough. Like I said, I'm just guessing and I could be wrong about that. You're right, we don't know.

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Other reports are conflicting and saying the studio wants a more polished and aged Batman, ala Josh Brolin, Joe M, etc. Can't jump to conclusions, it's still early. NOTHING we know as of yet.
I wasn't talking about age, more about how long he's actually been Batman (Goyer seemed to imply that the other DC heroes, including Bats, only came out of the woodwork after the events of MOS). In any case, it will still be a Batman we've never met before, which means they would have to take up screentime to establish him. That was the whole point of Marvel's solo films, to have the characters be fully developed coming into the team-up.

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So, you're pretty much saying this movie is going to bomb and you're not confident, no?
No, I'm saying the rushed schedule could result in a storytelling obstacle that the writers may find insurmountable, which audiences might object to, thus causing the film to potentially underperform (there's no way it's gonna outright bomb). Then again, maybe they'll overcome that obstacle and the film will blow Avengers out of the water. I'm not a psychic so, like you and everyone else in this thread, I'm just speculating.

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Old 08-13-2013, 02:26 PM   #114
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread. -

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See, I dont know if anyone else feels this way but I kind of felt like MoS could have been a standalone film. I mean, yes, there were definitely threads to pick up on and follow through with, but on a whole this very much felt like its own epic. I think snyder and Goyer made this film with the thought that this could potentially be their only shot. This is very different from the marvel movies which all felt like pieces to a larger puzzle instead of their own standalone epic films. This is why I'm cool with this team up happening.
This too is a reason for the divide. Some fans don't care if MOS is the last stand-alone Superman film as long as WF launches Batman. Others want more stand-alone Superman films.

It does seem odd that WB would essentially bring the Superman franchise to an end with MOS while launching the rest of the DCU into solos - but this is WB and Lord knows what they are up to. Those of us who are worried about the future of the franchise and want more Superman films remember the years of development hell and all.

The contradictory comments from some quarters just muddy the waters. Snyder said in one interview that they'd done all they could with Superman in MOS. But that that was a good thing. One could read that as MOS being the end of the franchise. But then he is quoted when touring OS to promote MOS that when he gets back he will sit down with the MOS team and decide where to go next with the franchise. Implying an MOS stand-alone. Then the announcement at ComiCon about WF.

So, depending on whether you think the Superman franchise has run its course or not - either position has some fodder out there which seems to support it - this unclairty about Superman gives rise to the arguments and back and forth. No one knows the truth but one's preference vis a vis Superman, no matter what it is, can be supported by one or the other of these seemingly contradictory comments.

Hopefully we will get more info in the months to come.


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Old 08-13-2013, 02:34 PM   #115
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread. -

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In any case, it will still be a Batman we've never met before, which means they would have to take up screentime to establish him. That was the whole point of Marvel's solo films, to have the characters be fully developed coming into the team-up.
Marvel's solo films had characters the audiences have NEVER been accustomed to on screen. Iron Man? Who the hell ever heard of Iron Man before Robert Downey Jr played himself in it? Thor? What did the GA know ANYTHING about Thor? Captain America? All these characters were never flushed out..ever.

Batman on the other hand? Do you REALLY need to have an entire backstory to tell the story of....Batman? I mean, we are only coming off of a franchise doing just that with the Nolanverse since 2005-2012....that's 7 years worth of Batman to wrap your head around. True, this would be a new Batman, but...

....do we REALLY need to see more of his parents dying, Alfred taking Bruce in and him molding a Bat-a-rang for people to walk out and say "WOW! That must have been BATMAN!"

No, you don't need to establish Batman as you would say...Iron Man, Thor or Captain America. Just introduce him as such...as you would the rogue that is Lex Luthor. People will get it. Hell, a simple flashback or two would do the trick for Batman, ala MOS..


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I'm not a psychic so, like you and everyone else in this thread, I'm just speculating.
Of course, but in ALL this doom and gloom, lets go on the other side where the grass is always greener. What if WB/Snyder/Goyer pull it off and manage to knock it out of the park? Talk about mind-blowing? It's all in the fun that will lead us off the next 2 years. We shall see. Regardless, this sheit is happening!

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Old 08-13-2013, 02:41 PM   #116
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread. -

Yeah, I dont even think we're going to have any concrete news until close to year's end, I'd be surprised if Goyer is even halfway through the screenplay.

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Old 08-13-2013, 02:41 PM   #117
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread. -

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Man of Steel had SO MUCH working against it that it wasn't even funny (up until what? Trailer #3 a month prior?) Even with the great Trailer #2, people were still suspicious. "Where is Superman's red trunks? Why is it dark? It looks like Batman Begins. This isn't Superman! Not enough action!" Blahblahblah.

All that, and not to be outdone by the audience being turned off by Superman Returns back in '06, it was facing an uphill battle. Yahoo.com, at one point, ranked MOS as their LEAST movie they were excited to see on their list. Yet, somehow this was supposed to be a billion dollar movie? Gimmie a break, those #'s weren't possible.

That all changed with trailer #2 and #3. At first, MOS was to be a laugh because it's Superman facing an uphill battle. I think MOS and the anticipation and the numbers it pulled is a great success in the face of its OWN adversity (darker Superman, non-traditional suite, Zack Snyder, etc.)

Don't act like MOS was always going to be the "billion dollar franchise/reboot" as predicted by a person within WB who was probably just "selling" the film to begin with.

MOS had a lot going against it than going for it. The numbers it brought in are about as respectful as a reboot can get. It's the fans that put this movies performance on the pedestal.

All WB wanted from it was the numbers to let them decide if a JL/crossovers were possible. It succeeded.
Good post. I still think Superman Returns scared some people from seeing this movie. Trailers 3 and 4 are what really made me want to see this movie. I think a follow up Superman movie and a solo Batman movie before a team-up movie is a better way to do it.


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Old 08-13-2013, 02:44 PM   #118
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread. -

Tra-El, I agree with almost everything you post. Just thought I'd let you know.

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Old 08-13-2013, 02:49 PM   #119
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread. -

I understand keeping expectations low especially if you didn't love Snyder and goyers take in Mos, but for so many to immediately assume their worst case scenario is almost certainly going to come to fruition is straight up laughable. By doing this you're setting up a sure failure in your own eyes. All this with absolutely no confirmed info besides the fact that Batman will appear in the next Supeman film. So sure, lee expectations low, but keep some hope in there so that you'll at least have an opportunity to enjoy a film we've all been waiting for our whole lives. Even if it doesn't end up being your exact vision, there will be plenty of movie to enjoy.

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Old 08-13-2013, 02:56 PM   #120
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread. -

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It may sound that way on the surface with Batman because over the years, Superman lived in the shadow and all the bandwagon Bat fans were all like "LOL Superman sucks, Batman rocks, LOL" but you got to remain confident in context.

Not only was Snyder hired to bring Superman BACK, but his sole intentions was to bring Superman back to being COOL and takin' serious again. HE even said "I will NOT apologize for my Superman.." so, I don't think MOS2, a reality set in SUPERMAN'S world, will have Clark just be a pushover to the Bat-God. I think it could establish Supes back to the top and garner back respect. They just can't rip apart and bring something down to something they took so much time and effort to rebuild....
I hope you're right but for now I'm staying cautious, I'm waiting to see something for now.

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Old 08-13-2013, 02:59 PM   #121
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread. -

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I've never seen anyone twist such a thing into such a negative so quickly such as this.

Who knew that not only was character development so dreaded, but that it would always ways amount to a film like that hulk one.

Here's something to think about, even if batman is new on the scene, will he need as much set up with the GA into back story/origins/powers as say a Thor in 2011? Just curious.
Wow, that is some hardcore reductio ad absurdum there, dude.

If you read my post again, you'll kindly note that the phrases "all character development", "always sucks", and "automatically makes a film into Ang Lee's Hulk" do not appear.

In fact, character development comes in two main flavors: well-placed and boring-as-hell. Well-placed character development is related through their responses to the action around them and makes the audience want to see them through to the end. Boring character development (the kind I talked about in my post, you'll recall) completely stops the movie in its tracks so we can hear characters who aren't doing anything important talk about their personalities, a technique which is neither plausible nor interesting. The former technique can be found in movies like Iron Man, BB, B89, the new Star Trek movies. Boring character development can be found in films like Spider-Man 1-3 and, yes, Ang Lee's Hulk.

I hope this is clearer to you.

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Old 08-13-2013, 03:07 PM   #122
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread. -

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Tra-El, I agree with almost everything you post. Just thought I'd let you know.
Thanks man, I appreciate that. It's others and their contributions that have brought me out to post more and more over the years. Though it could get heated up, I'm looking forward to making this 2 year merri-go-round worthwhile, as we did Man of Steel. Had a blast.

Boards like this are unique and I've enjoyed everybody's thoughts and opinions for something we are all passionate about. Even Tobias, (though I've been harsh on him the past few days, he keeps his cool and never shows his teeth) haha.

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Old 08-13-2013, 03:09 PM   #123
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread. -

Yet you seem to assume that including batman in this movie automatically means it will lead to boring character development, which is a bizarre conclusion to come to so definitively. It's more likely going to be very thematically relevant to where supes' arc will be - an example of good and efficient development. Both are pure speculation in either the optimistic or pessimistic direction.

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Old 08-13-2013, 03:18 PM   #124
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Wrong. I'm assuming that pairing a completely new character with one barely developed in the last movie, in a conflict that depends on their polar-opposite personalities, will either result in no character development and bland characters, or too much CD and no action. What part of that is unreasonable?

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Old 08-13-2013, 03:22 PM   #125
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread. -

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Originally Posted by EssayM View Post
Wrong. I'm assuming that pairing a completely new character with one barely developed in the last movie, in a conflict that depends on their polar-opposite personalities, will either result in no character development and bland characters, or too much CD and no action. What part of that is unreasonable?
The other factor is with Batman and Lex having big parts in the film what happens to Lois? I can't see her having more screen time in WF than in MOS. She probably will have significantly less so the Lois/Clark relationship which really has not been developed will perhaps not be done in the film. Its why WB had best do a follow-up Superman stand-alone so we get loose ends tied up that the next film won't have time to address.

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