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View Poll Results: Which is better?
The Dark Knight 130 57.52%
The Avengers 96 42.48%
Voters: 226. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 08-31-2013, 11:42 PM   #176
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Default Re: Tdk vs Avengers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki882 View Post
That's simply unfair to TA. You can't hold it against the movie for being a PERFECT representation of the Avengers comics.
So you're saying that there are never any themes or greater ideals in Avengers comics?

If that is the case, then no movie representation of the Avengers can ever both be a great movie and a great representation of the Avengers.

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Originally Posted by Loki882 View Post
Nolan admitted to taking things from Heat and the Bond films, and that's obvious in the movie.
Every work of art takes. You think Avengers was completely original?

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Originally Posted by Kimura
Action: The Avengers
Really?

Is there a single action sequence in The Avengers that can compare to the Joker's chasing the bus that contains Harvey Dent in the tunnel?

How about when Batman goes to Hong Kong and kidnaps the mob guy? That scene was awesome.

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Old 08-31-2013, 11:59 PM   #177
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Default Re: Tdk vs Avengers

The helicarrier sequence was better than any of the action sequences in TDK, but again thats just my opinion.

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Old 09-01-2013, 01:06 AM   #178
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Default Re: Tdk vs Avengers

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Really?

Is there a single action sequence in The Avengers that can compare to the Joker's chasing the bus that contains Harvey Dent in the tunnel?

How about when Batman goes to Hong Kong and kidnaps the mob guy? That scene was awesome.
To be honest, that fight in hong kong looked like a bad Krav Maga exhibition. I think Nolan never got the choreographies quite right. Some fights are good, but there are others who are really crappy. Theyīre too slow and too unrealistic. The Hong Kong fight and Batman saving Blake are just Bat. I canīt believe Nolan thought that was acceptable.

On the other hand, both fights against Bane were amazing. In Batman Begins the fights were also cool. Fast and powerful. Batman looked more like a savage.

I agree that the truck flipping in TDK was more impressive than anything in The Avengers, just because of the fact it was done for real. It was short and sweet. With Nolan nothing is over the top. The guy has an amazing sense of timing.

But, overall, iīd have to give the "Action" to The Avengers. It has tons of it, and almost all of the scenes are very good. I donīt think the best action scenes in The Avengers are better than the best in TDK. But it has more, and theyīre all good.

TDK is a better film. But if i just wanna watch some action, iīll watch The Avengers.

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Old 09-01-2013, 10:41 AM   #179
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Default Re: Tdk vs Avengers

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Originally Posted by DA_Champion View Post
So you're saying that there are never any themes or greater ideals in Avengers comics?

If that is the case, then no movie representation of the Avengers can ever both be a great movie and a great representation of the Avengers.


Every work of art takes. You think Avengers was completely original?


Really?

Is there a single action sequence in The Avengers that can compare to the Joker's chasing the bus that contains Harvey Dent in the tunnel?

How about when Batman goes to Hong Kong and kidnaps the mob guy? That scene was awesome.
The Avengers was a great movie, having a simple plot doesn't make it a bad plot if it works. If that were the case, then Star Wars OT, Indiana Jones, Jaws wouldn't be the classics that they are. No, I never said that that Avengers had a uniquely original plot, I simply said that TDK wasn't all that original either, you were the one who called it "more of the same." As far as I know, there's never been a massive CB movie team up before (X-Men doesn't count). Yes, there is an action scene that is better than the bus scene (which was fantastic I agree), it's called the last thirty-five minutes of the film, which was one "holy crap" moment after another.

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Old 09-01-2013, 04:45 PM   #180
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Default Re: Tdk vs Avengers

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having a simple plot doesn't make it a bad plot if it works
Youīre right. It doesnīt make it a bad plot. Because good and bad are subjective notions. But it can make it an uninteresting plot for those who are tired of watching the same kind of stuff over and over again. I really felt the plot was not important in The Avengers, and i was watching it just for the action and effects. At the end of the day, it all comes down to what each person enjoys to watch. If you enjoy to watch a man satarring at a wall for 100 minutes, you would love a movie who had something like that. Itīs pretty simple. People who love The Avengers arenīt really looking for great stories. Theyīre looking for live action cartoons, and thatīs ok.

Quote:
If that were the case, then Star Wars OT, Indiana Jones, Jaws
I wouldnīt really compare non of those movies to The Avengers. But you forgot an important point: Those movies have decades. When they were made, they actually offered something new. Or at least, something that wasnīt seen that often. Story wise, The Avengers fails to do the same thing. Halloween worked great in 1978. You make a movie like Halloween today, and it will not work in the same way. Why? Because weīve seen it a zillion times.

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As far as I know, there's never been a massive CB movie team up before
It doesnīt matter who stars in the movie. Iīm talking about plot structure, not about who is in it. If i make a film like Friday the 13th, but instead of Jason i use a cat, would that make the movie anything new and impressive? No! It would still be teenagers on vacation being murdered one by one. The essence is the same. Itīs cliche, boring and unappealing.

Quote:
TDK wasn't all that original
As a comic book movie, TDK was very original and out of the box, in the sense that it did stuff that you usually donīt see in movies of the same type. Of course, nothing is 100% original. But you can see that in TDK it was actually made an effort to offer the audiences something other than your average pg-13 story.

There was a very famous critic who said something about TDKR, that i think also applies very well to TDK:

"Whether you like it or not, and it will divide opinions, it is a movie made by someone who thinks youīre as smart as he is"

Thereīs nothing that i like more in a movie than being absorbed by itīs plot. But thatīs me, and thatīs why i donīt think The Avengers is amazing. However, in the same way i say this, other people can say "thereīs nothing more that i like in a movie than great visual effects", and thatīs fine. We donīt all have to like the same thing. Thatīs why discussions like this one are pointless. They only take place because they end up being funny and we get to talk about stuff that we love, as opposed to do something more useful with our lives.

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Old 09-01-2013, 05:00 PM   #181
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Default Re: Tdk vs Avengers

The Dark Knight. The Avengers is probably my second favorite CBM though.

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Old 09-01-2013, 05:16 PM   #182
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Default Re: Tdk vs Avengers

TDK is a legitimately great film, regardless of genre.

Avengers is perhaps the more faithful comic book adaptation and is good, populist fun, but I'm a film buff first and foremost and on those grounds it isn't even close. TDK is the more striking cinematic achievement and for me the one comic book movie I'll always come back to for the things it depicts about our world...the risks and collateral damage of conflict escalation, the blurred lines between the righteous and the insane, the political machine's acceptance of corruption, the sometimes hopeless quest to enforce moral order and the reactionary response of pure anarchy and nihilism, basic human nature (good or bad?), the importance of symbols that engender belief even when the truth behind those symbols is complicated or dubious. All while giving us a few great setpieces (with the armored car sequence just tops, one of THE great action scenes) and one of the best movie villains ever.

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Old 09-01-2013, 05:26 PM   #183
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Default Re: Tdk vs Avengers

As much as I love the Avengers I have to admit no other movie, period, has had me literally on the edge of my seat, sitting up straight with my eyes glued to the screen like The Dark Knight. Nothing was like watching that movie unfold for the first time.

Plus Batman is arguably the best character in the medium (if not my personal favorite), so it makes sense that in the right hands his films can really be stand outs in the genre.

Also, one thing to keep in mind is that The Avengers was an origin story. The plots are usually a little lighter for origin films, they had to bring the whole team together. I expect a greater plot for Age of Ultron.


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Old 09-02-2013, 02:33 AM   #184
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The Avengers is the greatest fast food burger I've ever had.
The Dark Knight is a juicy grilled burger from a 5 star restaurant.

I love The Avengers, but its not a great film. Its not. Joss Whedon even said it himself. He felt its a great experience and he's 100% correct, it is a GREAT experience. It's a great thrill to watch, but at the end of the day, there isn't really anything artistically significant to the film. It PERFECTS what its trying to do. It PERFECTS it. Whedon made the exact film he wanted to make and its great...it wasn't trying to be deep, or artistically pleasing, and thats fine.

Something 'deep' with layers does NOT automatically make it better. Its all in the execution. Like I said, Whedon's execution was near perfect. Something like Prometheus , which was a hell of lot deeper and attempted to raise much more discussion than The Avengers was simply not that well executed. Therefore, it was an ok film, but The Avengers was simply better because it didn't bite more than it could chew. It bit exactly what it needed and, again, perfected it.

HOWEVER, when something thats greatly executed, but not 'deep',(I quote it because I don't particularly care for that wording, but I don't know how else to describe it in simple terms for the sake of the post) like The Avengers meets something that IS deep, but is just as well executed...well...it just can't compete. It's like the well coached unranked football team that knows its X's and O's and plays really DAMN good, but the #1 team is simply stronger. The unranked team has played near flawlessly, but hey so has the #1 team thats bigger, stronger and faster. At the end of the day, in that exact situation, the #1 team wins 10 out of 10 times.

See, The Dark Knight was directed by arguably the best blockbuster director since Spielberg. It's DP was an Academy Award winning DP who is widely considered one of the top DP's in the field right now. It was written by the three headed monster of Goyer, who specialized in the comics, and the Nolan brothers who come up with quite original stories and, with Goyer to sprinkle the comics into the pot, were able to create a grand Batman story. TDK's cast was filled with Academy Award winners and nominees. It's special effects crew was an AA nominated group. TDK had the top football recruits on its team. They were already at the advantage.

Then, they actually get on the field and they live up to their awards and hype. The film is a wonderfully shot, incredibly acted and meticulously fined-tuned film that, from a technical standpoint, was 100 steps ahead of the rest of the genre. What about the creative side of the film? Well, Nolan gave us the grittiness of the Batman from the comics. he gave us the sorrow, the rage and the drive that Batman possesses in the comics. He gives us a setting similar to The Killing Joke, Batman:Year One, The Long Halloween, and Dark Victory. He gives a tone that resembles those same comics and a bit of the tone of The Dark Knight Returns, thought a tad lighter. Make no mistake, ignoring Rises, the Batman in TDK, had he stayed Batman, would wind up as cynical as the Returns Batman. Nolan then gave us the characters from the comics. They may not have looked exactly like their comic counter part, but their overall ideals and their overall needs, desires and purpose was shared with their comic counterpart. Nolan depicted these character's actions and purposes in a realistic way, which is where his realism comes in. What do I mean by that? Well, Nolan looks at Joker from the comics and says: heres a crazy guy, who dresses up as a clown, commits heinous crimes for the fun of it. Why would someone do that in the world I live in? So Nolan finds connections with The Joker and our world and he came to the conclusion that someone who acted as The Joker would probably be an anarchist and a 'agent of chaos', so we get the anarchy, which in turn causes the terrorism themes to pop up in the film. I believe Nolan when he says he wasn't making political statements with these films, but depicting our world realistically, while asking real questions and bringing up real discussions in art will lead to the art naturally creating these other themes from real life leading to Joker naturally becoming a sort of terrorist head in the film.

Nolan does the same thing with Batman. Batman's a fighter of justice and a bit obsessed with that. He comes to the conclusion that someone like that in real life, would probably be a bit paranoid and possibly cross the moral line to stop someone like The Joker. Its sort of like his white whale. And make no mistake, Joker is Batman's white whale in Miler's The Dark Knight Returns. So, again, naturally Batman sort of brings out the counter terrorism themes and wa-la: the film becomes an embodiment of the Post-9/11 world, particularly Post-9/11 America and yes, I believe Nolan had no intention of doing exactly that, but thats what's great about truly great art: it begins to form itself and take the artist along for the ride. The film isn't Pro-Bush or Anti-Bush like many people try to claim. It just is. Its depicting our world as if it was a comic book world. Its up to the viewer to decide who's actually right and wrong, just like its up to them to decide who they feel is right and wrong in politics. However, the paranoia, the anxiety regarding this unstoppable force that seems to enjoy committing these acts, feels very real due to its real world parallels. But unlike, say ST: ID, where it was clear the film was forcing politics in(they dedicate the film to the troops which is a nice gesture, but why else would they do so?) and it suffered because it didn't help the plot. However, all of that was not forced in TDK, it came to be and it flowed perfectly in the film because these sorts of themes are dealt with in Batman comics for years. The whole 'counter-terorrism: is it helping or actually causing more harm' theme felt throughout TDK that made it so relevant is a theme that has been a part of Batman for years! Hugo Strange has been asking Batman that question since the 1970s. Its part of Batman. Nolan embraced the character. He embraced the depth of the character and went all for it.

If TDK was made into a shot-for-shot graphic novel adaption that is set after Year One and before The Long Halloween and you read those three Graphic Novels in a row...TDK would fit perfectly. TDK is Batman comics on screen. Nolan embraced the crime noir aspects of Batman and focused on that. That's no less the character of Batman than running around with the super powered Justice League. TDK is a comic book film.

TDK is also just a ****ing great film in itself. It mirrors society and asks questions, but like life, doesn't answer all of them. It excites, it entertains, but there's something stronger, something cerebral underneath it. Like all great art, it examines society.It examines humanity. It examines violence and the need to counter violence with more violence which is a theme VERY essential to all SUPERHERO FILMS, because thats what superheroes do. It also asks us if the hero is always right...Rachel tells Bruce that him giving himself won't stop The Joker...but The Joker's show seemed to mostly be for Batman. Batman was HIS white shark too. Perhaps Joker would have stopped, like the crying kid just wanting attention who stops after the silent treatment. We don't know. Nolan doesn't tell us. He probably doesn't know either. Batman did what he felt he had to do, isn't that noble enough? Do noble intentions matter if they end up leading to more harm? Alfred thinks so. Alfred convinces Batman its a war and it gets worse before it gets better. We know what the characters think. But as all great art does, TDK doesn't forcefully give us the answer. Like life, you aren't handed everything tight up neatly in a bow. You're left to decided.

The Dark Knight is ****in' art. It's exciting. It's fun. Its discussion-worthy. That's simply greater than a 'great experience' every time.

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Old 09-02-2013, 01:05 PM   #185
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Default Re: Tdk vs Avengers

Avengers is like the theatrically released endings of Little Shop of Horrors and Brazil. Light and without ambiguity.

The Dark Knight is like their original endings, darker, but overall better storytelling.

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Old 09-02-2013, 02:53 PM   #186
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Default Re: Tdk vs Avengers

I like the subtle implication of "smart people like TDK, vapid people like Avengers" floating around.

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Old 09-02-2013, 03:10 PM   #187
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Default Re: Tdk vs Avengers

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I like the subtle implication of "smart people like TDK, vapid people like Avengers" floating around.
It's more like the movies are like that, not the people. Like at all.

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Old 09-02-2013, 03:48 PM   #188
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I like the subtle implication of "smart people like TDK, vapid people like Avengers" floating around.
It's actually not so subtle.

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Old 09-02-2013, 04:45 PM   #189
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I voted the Avengers because even the promos for TDK put me off that film. I need some humour in the films I watch and DC seems to like to make films bleak.

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Old 09-02-2013, 04:52 PM   #190
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I voted the Avengers because even the promos for TDK put me off that film. I need some humour in the films I watch and DC seems to like to make films bleak.
Comedy is great when well done, but I don't know where it became a must for a good movie or a superhero movie.

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Old 09-02-2013, 05:12 PM   #191
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Default Re: Tdk vs Avengers

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Comedy is great when well done, but I don't know where it became a must for a good movie or a superhero movie.
Definitely one starring Spider-Man.

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Old 09-02-2013, 05:28 PM   #192
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Default Re: Tdk vs Avengers

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Originally Posted by weezerspider View Post
The Avengers is the greatest fast food burger I've ever had.
The Dark Knight is a juicy grilled burger from a 5 star restaurant.

I love The Avengers, but its not a great film. Its not. Joss Whedon even said it himself. He felt its a great experience and he's 100% correct, it is a GREAT experience. It's a great thrill to watch, but at the end of the day, there isn't really anything artistically significant to the film. It PERFECTS what its trying to do. It PERFECTS it. Whedon made the exact film he wanted to make and its great...it wasn't trying to be deep, or artistically pleasing, and thats fine.

Something 'deep' with layers does NOT automatically make it better. Its all in the execution. Like I said, Whedon's execution was near perfect. Something like Prometheus , which was a hell of lot deeper and attempted to raise much more discussion than The Avengers was simply not that well executed. Therefore, it was an ok film, but The Avengers was simply better because it didn't bite more than it could chew. It bit exactly what it needed and, again, perfected it.

HOWEVER, when something thats greatly executed, but not 'deep',(I quote it because I don't particularly care for that wording, but I don't know how else to describe it in simple terms for the sake of the post) like The Avengers meets something that IS deep, but is just as well executed...well...it just can't compete. It's like the well coached unranked football team that knows its X's and O's and plays really DAMN good, but the #1 team is simply stronger. The unranked team has played near flawlessly, but hey so has the #1 team thats bigger, stronger and faster. At the end of the day, in that exact situation, the #1 team wins 10 out of 10 times.

See, The Dark Knight was directed by arguably the best blockbuster director since Spielberg. It's DP was an Academy Award winning DP who is widely considered one of the top DP's in the field right now. It was written by the three headed monster of Goyer, who specialized in the comics, and the Nolan brothers who come up with quite original stories and, with Goyer to sprinkle the comics into the pot, were able to create a grand Batman story. TDK's cast was filled with Academy Award winners and nominees. It's special effects crew was an AA nominated group. TDK had the top football recruits on its team. They were already at the advantage.

Then, they actually get on the field and they live up to their awards and hype. The film is a wonderfully shot, incredibly acted and meticulously fined-tuned film that, from a technical standpoint, was 100 steps ahead of the rest of the genre. What about the creative side of the film? Well, Nolan gave us the grittiness of the Batman from the comics. he gave us the sorrow, the rage and the drive that Batman possesses in the comics. He gives us a setting similar to The Killing Joke, Batman:Year One, The Long Halloween, and Dark Victory. He gives a tone that resembles those same comics and a bit of the tone of The Dark Knight Returns, thought a tad lighter. Make no mistake, ignoring Rises, the Batman in TDK, had he stayed Batman, would wind up as cynical as the Returns Batman. Nolan then gave us the characters from the comics. They may not have looked exactly like their comic counter part, but their overall ideals and their overall needs, desires and purpose was shared with their comic counterpart. Nolan depicted these character's actions and purposes in a realistic way, which is where his realism comes in. What do I mean by that? Well, Nolan looks at Joker from the comics and says: heres a crazy guy, who dresses up as a clown, commits heinous crimes for the fun of it. Why would someone do that in the world I live in? So Nolan finds connections with The Joker and our world and he came to the conclusion that someone who acted as The Joker would probably be an anarchist and a 'agent of chaos', so we get the anarchy, which in turn causes the terrorism themes to pop up in the film. I believe Nolan when he says he wasn't making political statements with these films, but depicting our world realistically, while asking real questions and bringing up real discussions in art will lead to the art naturally creating these other themes from real life leading to Joker naturally becoming a sort of terrorist head in the film.

Nolan does the same thing with Batman. Batman's a fighter of justice and a bit obsessed with that. He comes to the conclusion that someone like that in real life, would probably be a bit paranoid and possibly cross the moral line to stop someone like The Joker. Its sort of like his white whale. And make no mistake, Joker is Batman's white whale in Miler's The Dark Knight Returns. So, again, naturally Batman sort of brings out the counter terrorism themes and wa-la: the film becomes an embodiment of the Post-9/11 world, particularly Post-9/11 America and yes, I believe Nolan had no intention of doing exactly that, but thats what's great about truly great art: it begins to form itself and take the artist along for the ride. The film isn't Pro-Bush or Anti-Bush like many people try to claim. It just is. Its depicting our world as if it was a comic book world. Its up to the viewer to decide who's actually right and wrong, just like its up to them to decide who they feel is right and wrong in politics. However, the paranoia, the anxiety regarding this unstoppable force that seems to enjoy committing these acts, feels very real due to its real world parallels. But unlike, say ST: ID, where it was clear the film was forcing politics in(they dedicate the film to the troops which is a nice gesture, but why else would they do so?) and it suffered because it didn't help the plot. However, all of that was not forced in TDK, it came to be and it flowed perfectly in the film because these sorts of themes are dealt with in Batman comics for years. The whole 'counter-terorrism: is it helping or actually causing more harm' theme felt throughout TDK that made it so relevant is a theme that has been a part of Batman for years! Hugo Strange has been asking Batman that question since the 1970s. Its part of Batman. Nolan embraced the character. He embraced the depth of the character and went all for it.

If TDK was made into a shot-for-shot graphic novel adaption that is set after Year One and before The Long Halloween and you read those three Graphic Novels in a row...TDK would fit perfectly. TDK is Batman comics on screen. Nolan embraced the crime noir aspects of Batman and focused on that. That's no less the character of Batman than running around with the super powered Justice League. TDK is a comic book film.

TDK is also just a ****ing great film in itself. It mirrors society and asks questions, but like life, doesn't answer all of them. It excites, it entertains, but there's something stronger, something cerebral underneath it. Like all great art, it examines society.It examines humanity. It examines violence and the need to counter violence with more violence which is a theme VERY essential to all SUPERHERO FILMS, because thats what superheroes do. It also asks us if the hero is always right...Rachel tells Bruce that him giving himself won't stop The Joker...but The Joker's show seemed to mostly be for Batman. Batman was HIS white shark too. Perhaps Joker would have stopped, like the crying kid just wanting attention who stops after the silent treatment. We don't know. Nolan doesn't tell us. He probably doesn't know either. Batman did what he felt he had to do, isn't that noble enough? Do noble intentions matter if they end up leading to more harm? Alfred thinks so. Alfred convinces Batman its a war and it gets worse before it gets better. We know what the characters think. But as all great art does, TDK doesn't forcefully give us the answer. Like life, you aren't handed everything tight up neatly in a bow. You're left to decided.

The Dark Knight is ****in' art. It's exciting. It's fun. Its discussion-worthy. That's simply greater than a 'great experience' every time.
Excellent post, and I agree for the most part.

Here's the thing, TDK crew had Batman Begins to get started, learn the ropes, and then the sequel to hone their craft.

TDK vs. Age of Ultron will not be such a one sided comparison.

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Old 09-02-2013, 05:31 PM   #193
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We got a Superhero film totally devoid of mirth and humor.(It was called Man of Steel) The results speak for themselves.

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Old 09-02-2013, 05:40 PM   #194
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Default Re: Tdk vs Avengers

The Dark Knight.

The Avengers was a strong ensemble movie, but that's all it was, the plot looked invisible most of the time and it didn't have a distinctive look.

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Old 09-03-2013, 03:57 PM   #195
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With his masterpiece THE DARK KNIGHT, Nolan has created the apex of Comic book storytelling, both in film and the graphic novel medium itself, which has held the title for over 5 years running.

It's all downhill from here.

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Old 09-03-2013, 04:13 PM   #196
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With his masterpiece THE DARK KNIGHT, Nolan has created the apex of Comic book storytelling, both in film and the graphic novel medium itself, which has held the title for over 5 years running.

It's all downhill from here.
Well,I guess we might as well shut this place down now.We have nothing left to look forward to.

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Old 09-03-2013, 04:21 PM   #197
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Old 09-03-2013, 04:25 PM   #198
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(Although,I suppose I should be depressed that so many actually believe that.)

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Old 09-04-2013, 12:26 AM   #199
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I like the subtle implication of "smart people like TDK, vapid people like Avengers" floating around.
Versus all of the implications that people who prefer TDK aren't "true" comic book fans?

All of the insults in the world aren't going to get folks to change their minds about which movie they prefer. I don't know why people even bother.

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Old 09-04-2013, 01:05 AM   #200
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That's simply unfair to TA. You can't hold it against the movie for being a PERFECT representation of the Avengers comics. That is what they are. Also, as fantastic as TDK is, and it REALLY is, it is not really that groundbreaking. Nolan admitted to taking things from Heat and the Bond films, and that's obvious in the movie. TDK is also ''more of the same'' just done exceptionally well.
Up until TDK we had never had a superhero film be much more than a superhero film. Anyone who says TDK is just more of the same done well either hasn't seen a lot of superhero films or refuses stubbornly to acknowledge the bench marks and direction the film went. Yes, it is influenced by Heat, hell there are shots that are almost identical, but what other superhero film before that stepped outside its genre limitations and embrace wider film influences to such a degree? Even Batman Begins is tied into superhero conventions, there's no doubt in my mind if Nolan could have made more changes he would have. And lets not forget another thing, the affect of TDK is still being felt in cinema today 5 years later.

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