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Old 03-08-2014, 11:09 PM   #701
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 4

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Not really. Offer people free 20 million dollars and it's a no brainer. Where's the experiment? Try and force people to murder dozens of other people, or they die themselves, that's a social experiment.
You see people dying clutching money, and even after the gas is released, there are still people around trying to get the money. It's not until Joker's goons fire their guns that they eventually disperse (don't forget Joker poisoned the city previously, yet people could not help be lured by the money).

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Old 03-08-2014, 11:16 PM   #702
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Not really. Offer people free 20 million dollars and it's a no brainer. Where's the experiment? Try and force people to murder dozens of other people, or they die themselves, that's a social experiment.
Yes, because normal people are known for offering their lives gracefully just to save some convicts' lives saved. Same thing with convicts, they would do anything to save an innocent person's life. Where's the experiment? That the writers had everyone inexplicably uncertain about saving their own lives.

Nicholson's Joker experiment was that even when people know he's a killer, they would go just to grab a few bucks. That's their nature.

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Old 03-08-2014, 11:18 PM   #703
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 4

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Originally Posted by CountOrlok View Post
You see people dying clutching money
So?

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and even after the gas is released, there are still people around trying to get the money.
No, after Batman has removed the balloons and the gas is gone you see people grabbing the money.

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(don't forget Joker poisoned the city previously, yet people could not help be lured by the money).
Two things:

1. When Joker is making his announcement on TV nobody in Gotham is paying the slightest bit of attention to him. Like he's not even important. It's not until he mentions the free money does anyone take notice that he's on TV. So for some bizarre reason Gotham's people don't consider him someone worth listening to.

2. Again this is not a social experiment. All it shows is people are greedy for money. He wasn't trying to prove anything. He was just luring them there because he knows people won't be able to resist free money. Whereas in the TDK situation it's an actual experiment to see can you turn people into murderers.

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Yes, because normal people are known for offering their lives gracefully just to save some convicts' lives saved. Same thing with convicts, they would do anything to save an innocent person's life. Where's the experiment? That the writers had everyone inexplicably uncertain about saving their own lives.
It's not about convicts lives, it's about taking lives in general. Convicts were not the only people on that boat either. There was Prison officers, Cops, and ship crew, too.

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Nicholson's Joker experiment was that even when people know he's a killer, they would go just to grab a few bucks. That's their nature.
That was not his experiment. He had no experiment. He wasn't trying to prove anything. He was just using the money as bait to lure the crowd there so he could kill them. It's a no brainer that if you offer free money, no matter who you are, people will take it.

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Old 03-08-2014, 11:30 PM   #704
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 4

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So?
So the point is made.

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Two things:

1. When Joker is making his announcement on TV nobody in Gotham is paying the slightest bit of attention to him. Like he's not even important. It's not until he mentions the free money does anyone take notice that he's on TV. So for some bizarre reason Gotham's people don't consider him someone worth listening to.
It was an official transmission. Nobody was listening because it was the major speaking and no one was expecting the Joker. Plus, the Joker had killed only mob bosses or models and people who would wear a lot of make-up. The people we see listening to the transmission had obviously never seen even a toothbrush in their lives.

But yes, it was the talking about money what made people care.

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2. Again this is not a social experiment. All it shows is people are greedy for money. He wasn't trying to prove anything. He was just luring them there because he knows people won't be able to resist free money. Whereas in the TDK situation it's an actual experiment to see can you turn people into murderers.
Yeah, both "procedures" were similar. But of course Nicholson's Joker didn't put it as an experiment.

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It's not about convicts lives, it's about taking lives in general. Convicts were not the only people on that boat either. There was Prison officers, Cops, and ship crew, too.
I'm sure those guards' lives are the very first thing that crosses people's minds when their very lives are about to end and they can prevent it from happening.

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That was not his experiment. He had no experiment. He wasn't trying to prove anything. He was just using the money as bait to lure the crowd there so he could kill them. It's a no brainer that if you offer free money, no matter who you are, people will take it.
It's a no brainer that if you threaten to kill someone and then give them a chance to survive, they'll use it. Unless you're an obvious character from a movie that won't do the obvious because the script requires so.

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Old 03-08-2014, 11:37 PM   #705
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 4

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So the point is made.
What point. People dropped dead holding money? That doesn't prove any point other than they were holding money in their hands before they died.

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It was an official transmission. Nobody was listening because it was the major speaking and no one was expecting the Joker. But yes, it was the talking about money what made people care.
"Joker here. Now you people have said some pretty mean things blah blah blah"

They knew it was the Joker. The guy who had been killing them with poison products was speaking. If Osama Bin Laden interrupted a public broadcast after 9/11 you can bet NY citizens would be paying very strict attention. Eyes glued to the screen.

The point is nobody seemed to give a damn he was on TV like he wasn't important or threatening enough to grab their attention. It's only when they hear about the free money they all stop and take notice.

Ergo it shows nobody cares who is handing it out as long as it's free money.

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Yeah, both "procedures" were similar. But of course Nicholson's Joker didn't put it as an experiment.
No they weren't. Joker didn't put Gotham's people in a situation where they were forced to make a terrible choice.

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I'm sure those guards' lives are the very first thing that crosses people's minds when their very lives are about to end and they can prevent it from happening.
Why wouldn't they be. Nobody is naive enough to think the convicts are manning that boat by themselves lol.

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It's a no brainer that if you threaten to kill someone and then give them a chance to survive, they'll use it. Unless you're an obvious character from a movie that won't do the obvious because the script requires so.
No it's not, depending on what the chance is. Killing dozens of people is not your typical choice to save your own life. Being offered free money, and having blood on your hands are two very different things.

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Old 03-08-2014, 11:43 PM   #706
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 4

I'm not here to argue which is better. It was more of a 'joke' than a 'social experiment', anyway, and a plot to lure Batman for a final showdown. Not that the Joker in Burton's films had no plot or purpose, like many people think. He wasn't really out to prove a point, though, except who was better.

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Old 03-08-2014, 11:46 PM   #707
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 4

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I'm not here to argue which is better. It was more of a 'joke' than a 'social experiment', anyway, and a plot to lure Batman for a final showdown. Not that the Joker in Burton's films had no plot or purpose, like many people think. He wasn't really out to prove a point, though, except who was better.
I'm not arguing which is better either. It's apples and oranges. One was a set up to lure Batman and the citizens to the parade. The other was forcing people into a situation where they had to kill or be killed.

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Old 03-08-2014, 11:50 PM   #708
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 4

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I'm not arguing which is better either. It's apples and oranges. One was a set up to lure Batman and the citizens to the parade. The other was forcing people into a situation where they had to kill or be killed.
That reminds me of the Saw movies a bit.

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Old 03-09-2014, 03:58 AM   #709
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What point. People dropped dead holding money? That doesn't prove any point.
People dropped dead holding money after someone labelled as a killer by the authorities told them he was innocent and generous.

The point is, no matter what, people would go after the money. Too obvious? How about, people who are about to die would do anything to get off the hook. Yeah, we needed the experiment to assume that's true.

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"Joker here. Now you people have said some pretty mean things blah blah blah"

The guy who had been trying to kill them was speaking. If Osama Bin Laden interrupted a public broadcast after 9/11 you can bet NY citizens would be paying attention.

The point is nobody seemed to give a damn he was on TV like he wasn't important or threatening enough to grab their attention. It's only when they hear about the free money they all stop and take notice.

Ergo it shows nobody cares who is handing it out as long as it's free money.
Well, as they were on a boat sailing the waters and the only thing they were able to listen to was the boat's speakers, they didn't have much of a choice but listen. Unlike people in a bar or working building something who were uninterested in the major speaking.

Plus, as I said, this Joker fellow seemed to be killing models and a certain type of people only. Not everybody.

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No they weren't. Joker didn't put Gotham's people in a situation where they were forced to make a choice.
Allow themselves to be killed because they probably needed the money. Not a terrible choice?

But okay, when i said, "Nicholson's Joker didn't put it as an experiment," I meant it.

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Why wouldn't they be. Nobody is naive enough to think the convicts are manning that boat by themselves lol.
Or naive enough to think those guards' lives are enough to stop people to save their own lives.

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No it's not, depending on what the chance is. Being offered free money, and having blood on your hands are two very different things.
Yes they are, but when it's about saving your own life, there's no many things you consider. You just save your neck and think later about anything else. Unless maybe your loved ones' lives were at stake.

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Old 03-09-2014, 09:07 AM   #710
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 4

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People dropped dead holding money after someone labelled as a killer by the authorities told them he was innocent and generous.
Charlie Manson had legions of followers after he was labelled a killer by the authorities and even locked up in prison, and he didn't have to offer them a free 20 million bucks either. It doesn't prove anything other than people are always up for a freebie.

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The point is, no matter what, people would go after the money.
I know that. That's not a social experiment. That's obvious, as was shown in the scene where Joker was ignored on TV until he mentioned free money. They didn't care he was on TV until he offered them something nice for free. People will always come if they're offered something for free. Common human nature. No experiment involved or needed.

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Too obvious? How about, people who are about to die would do anything to get off the hook. Yeah, we needed the experiment to assume that's true.
Yes you do. Because to assume everyone will slaughter hundreds of people to save themselves is not a clear cut conclusion like taking free money.

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Well, as they were on a boat sailing the waters and the only thing they were able to listen to was the boat's speakers, they didn't have much of a choice but listen. Unlike people in a bar or working building something who were uninterested in the major speaking.
In the bar scene in TDK when Joker makes his announcement after blowing up Gotham hospital you see everyone watching intently and then they clear out of the bar when he tells them "If you don't want to be in the game get out now".



They didn't have to listen to a word he was saying. But they did. That's the difference between the people in Gotham in B'89 and TDK. One set never seem scared of him or even acted like he was important unless they were getting something out of it. Whereas in TDK you saw Gotham's people panicked and scared of him several times. Which is more normal and believable.

Be realistic. If the guy who has been terrorizing your city with mass murder gets on TV, people will pay close attention, whether they have a choice or not. That's common sense.

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Plus, as I said, this Joker fellow seemed to be killing models and a certain type of people only. Not everybody.
It is never specified that he is only killing certain types of people just because the first two victims were models. The news says there's another 6 deaths later, and they never specify they're models or anything. You're just making an unfounded assumption there.

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Allow themselves to be killed because they probably needed the money. Not a terrible choice?
No it's not. Not even close. Nobody was forcing them to go and take this money. They were not backed into a corner. They were just greedy. Hence why Knox points at them and says "Gotham's greed", not "Gotham's desperation". That was Burton's statement on this situation. They were acting out of greed not need.

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But okay, when i said, "Nicholson's Joker didn't put it as an experiment," I meant it.
Ok. And when I said it wasn't a social experiment I meant it. It was just a set up to lure Batman and the citizens to him. Best way to gather a crowd is offer something for free.

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Or naive enough to think those guards' lives are enough to stop people to save their own lives.
Why not? It's naive to think anyone will kill other innocent lives to just save their own neck. I was glad TDK showed that.

Normal people actually want to help their fellow man, and they certainly don't want to be responsible for taking lives. Look at the Boston Marathon bombings. People actually ran toward an area that had just been rocked by multiple explosions in order to help the injured. Not just police, regular people did this. There was no reason to assume things are safe when two explosions just occurred. They helped their fellow man knowing full well they were potentially putting themselves in harm's way.

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Yes they are, but when it's about saving your own life, there's no many things you consider. You just save your neck and think later about anything else. Unless maybe your loved ones' lives were at stake.
No they're not, and that's the thing these people did have time consider these things since they had half an hour til midnight, and they expected someone else to push the trigger and have that blood on their hands.

That's why nobody would get up and do it, except for that one guy because "No one wants to get their hands dirty", and even then he couldn't do it when push came to shove. It's one thing to say yeah we should pull the trigger and then expect someone else to do the deed, but it's another to actually do it yourself.

What people say and what they do are two entirely different things. It's easy to be callous, cold, and uncaring in a hypothetical. When it comes down to actually pulling the trigger most people wouldn't and in cases of a large crowd gathered together groupthink more often than not becomes the deciding factor.

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Old 03-10-2014, 04:02 PM   #711
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 4

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Charlie Manson had legions of followers after he was labelled a killer by the authorities and even locked up in prison, and he didn't have to offer them a free 20 million bucks either. It doesn't prove anything other than people are always up for a freebie.
Yeah, you can gather the loons if you have the skills. In Joker's both actions (in B89 and TDK) he was looking to corrupt normal people though.

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I know that. That's not a social experiment. That's obvious, as was shown in the scene where Joker was ignored on TV until he mentioned free money. They didn't care he was on TV until he offered them something nice for free. People will always come if they're offered something for free. Common human nature. No experiment involved or needed.
Same with the boats, if you look at it like that. People can become killers if it's in order to save their own lives or their loved ones'. I don't need an experiment to know that.

For example, Joker told Gotham, kill Reese now or I'll kill some of your loved ones. BOOM , everyone didn't give a damn and started shooting and whatnot to kill him. Nobody thought, mh, maybe Reese has a family so I should sacrifice my wife. No, their own interests came first and with a bang (literally).

So yes, in general Gotham people (policemen or not) don't care put other people's lives first when it's about their loved ones (in those boats there were families, not just individuals). And I say "kill others" because Reese might be one man, but the guy shooting like crazy or the one trying to crash his car into the police van certainly didn't care about killing someone else in the process of killing Reese. Everything goes.

So, the point was made, no boat experiment was necessary.

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Yes you do. Because to assume everyone will slaughter hundreds of people to save themselves is not a clear cut conclusion like taking free money.
Why not exactly? Are there official numbers to support either statement?

But that's what the movie showed me regarding killing Reese.

Then again, not everyone would risk their lives for a bunch of dollars. Because it's not just "taking free money."

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In the bar scene in TDK when Joker makes his announcement after blowing up Gotham hospital you see everyone watching intently and then they clear out of the bar when he tells them "If you don't want to be in the game get out now".

They didn't have to listen to a word he was saying. But they did. That's the difference between the people in Gotham in B'89 and TDK. One set never seem scared of him or even acted like he was important unless they were getting something out of it. Whereas in TDK you saw Gotham's people panicked and scared of him several times. Which is more normal and believable.

Be realistic. If the guy who has been terrorizing your city with mass murder gets on TV, people will pay close attention, whether they have a choice or not. That's common sense.
Except if, as I said, people killed by the Joker were only models and TV people. We only saw drunks and workers reacting to the Joker's announcement. They haven't been touched or killed by Joker, so I can get why they didn't take it as a personal threat, unlike in TDK.

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It is never specified that he is only killing certain types of people just because the first two victims were models. The news says there's another 6 deaths later, and they never specify they're models or anything. You're just making an unfounded assumption there.
No, I'm saying what's in the movie, not assuming anything else as true.

People who wear a lot of make-up and beauty product were Joker's target. That's what the movie shows and that's why Joker chose that way to kill. Joker himself talks about "the avant garde of the new aesthetic" and how he is motivated by people's typical appreciation of beauty ("You know how concerned people are for appearances. 'This is attractive, that is not.' That is all behind me.") That's why he attacks through beauty products, that's why the movie only talks about models and such as victims ("The fashion world was stunned today by the sudden deaths of models..." "Three mysterious deaths at a beauty parlor in Gotham..." "COSMETICS SCARE IN GOTHAM") and Joker even re-makes over Alicia "in line with my new philosophy." That's why those drunks and workers weren't worried. At that time, also, Batman had already warned people which beauty products NOT to consume.

Saying that Joker was trying to poison everyone is an unfounded assumption. It's not in the movie. Joker chose his deadly weapon based on what people he was trying to kill.

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No it's not. Not even close. Nobody was forcing them to go and take this money. They were not backed into a corner. They were just greedy. Hence why Knox points at them and says "Gotham's greed", not "Gotham's desperation". That was Burton's statement on this situation. They were acting out of greed not need.
You're right.

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Ok. And when I said it wasn't a social experiment I meant it. It was just a set up to lure Batman and the citizens to him. Best way to gather a crowd is offer something for free.
And best way to make people kill is to put a gun against their heads. Not a mystery exactly.

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Why not? It's naive to think anyone will kill other innocent lives to just save their own neck. I was glad TDK showed that.

Normal people actually want to help their fellow man, and they certainly don't want to be responsible for taking lives. Look at the Boston Marathon bombings. People actually ran toward an area that had just been rocked by multiple explosions in order to help the injured. Not just police, regular people did this. There was no reason to assume things are safe when two explosions just occurred. They helped their fellow man knowing full well they were potentially putting themselves in harm's way.
And it's naive to think that everyone would risk everything for money. But we're talking in general here I think.

But, as TDK showed, when their families are threatened, most Gotham people don't hesitate to try and shoot an innocent man. Not even if they're a cop.

And, anyways, Joker's boats experiment only needed one person to push the button. But hey, suddenly everyone in Gotham, even convicts, are too noble. That's naive.

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No they're not, and that's the thing these people did have time consider these things since they had half an hour til midnight, and they expected someone else to push the trigger and have that blood on their hands.

That's why nobody would get up and do it, except for that one guy because "No one wants to get their hands dirty", and even then he couldn't do it when push came to shove. It's one thing to say yeah we should pull the trigger and then expect someone else to do the deed, but it's another to actually do it yourself.

What people say and what they do are two entirely different things. It's easy to be callous, cold, and uncaring in a hypothetical. When it comes down to actually pulling the trigger most people wouldn't and in cases of a large crowd gathered together groupthink more often than not becomes the deciding factor.
Nobody would do it except for that guy because the writers suddenly felt the very same Gotham people who didn't hesitate in trying to take one life would suddenly have problems trying to kill convicts.

When the boats scene came it was suddenly a chore, even for convicted murderers, to kill and protect yourself and your families because the scene required so.

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Old 03-10-2014, 04:52 PM   #712
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 4

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Yeah, you can gather the loons if you have the skills. In Joker's both actions (in B89 and TDK) he was looking to corrupt normal people though.
You're missing the point. He had followers even though the authorities labelled him a killer and put him in prison, which was a point you raised about Gotham's people going to the Joker for free money even though the authorities called him a killer. Manson's followers were long term devoted followers of him. He didn't have to bribe them with free money to come and gather around at a public parade.

What happened in B'89 was just a bunch of greedy people taking advantage of an offer of free money. Hence Knox's statement of "Gotham's greed". That's all it was. Not corruption.

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Same with the boats, if you look at it like that. People can become killers if it's in order to save their own lives or their loved ones'. I don't need an experiment to know that.
Yes, you do. Because you're automatically assuming the majority would turn killer. As TDK showed when it came to it nobody could actually do it.

So you obviously did need an experiment to show that.

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For example, Joker told Gotham, kill Reese now or I'll kill some of your loved ones. BOOM , everyone didn't give a damn and started shooting and whatnot to kill him. Nobody thought, mh, maybe Reese has a family so I should sacrifice my wife. No, their own interests came first and with a bang (literally).

So yes, in general Gotham people (policemen or not) don't care put other people's lives first when it's about their loved ones (in those boats there were families, not just individuals). And I say "kill others" because Reese might be one man, but the guy shooting like crazy or the one trying to crash his car into the police van certainly didn't care about killing someone else in the process of killing Reese. Everything goes.
Two things;

1. Mr. Reese was one man. Killing one person is very different to killing hundreds of people.

2. You only saw a total of three people actually make an attempt on Reese's life. The guy with the gun outside the TV station, the guy in the truck, and the twitchy Cop in the van with Gordon and Reese. Three people out of a city of millions.

The whole city was not making gang attempts in droves to get him.

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So, the point was made, no boat experiment was necessary.
No, the point wasn't made. Joker never proved the whole city would turn into killers. Cause panic with his threat? Yes. Make everyone into a mob of murderers? No.

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Why not exactly? Are there official numbers to support either statement?
Yes, there is. The official numbers that nobody has ever killed hundreds of people to save themselves. A big fat zero.

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But that's what the movie showed me regarding killing Reese.
No, the movie showed you that three people out of a whole city made an actual attempt to kill ONE man in order to save a hospital full of people. Do you think three people out of a population of millions shows a general consensus that everyone turns killer under threat?

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Then again, not everyone would risk their lives for a bunch of dollars. Because it's not just "taking free money."
Gotham never saw it as a risk to their lives. They were not scared or nervous. Total opposite. They looked like they were having a ball.

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Except if, as I said, people killed by the Joker were only models and TV people. We only saw drunks and workers reacting to the Joker's announcement. They haven't been touched or killed by Joker, so I can get why they didn't take it as a personal threat, unlike in TDK.
That's unfounded conjecture. You have no reason to believe only models were being killed.

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No, I'm saying what's in the movie, not assuming anything else as true.
And in the movie they also say there was another 6 deaths, and never specify they were models. So give me one valid reason why we should believe they were models.

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People who wear a lot of make-up and beauty product were Joker's target. That's what the movie shows and that's why Joker chose that way to kill. Joker himself talks about "the avant garde of the new aesthetic" and how he is motivated by people's typical appreciation of beauty ("You know how concerned people are for appearances. 'This is attractive, that is not.' That is all behind me.") That's why he attacks through beauty products, that's why the movie only talks about models and such as victims ("The fashion world was stunned today by the sudden deaths of models..." "Three mysterious deaths at a beauty parlor in Gotham..." "COSMETICS SCARE IN GOTHAM") and Joker even re-makes over Alicia "in line with my new philosophy." That's why those drunks and workers weren't worried. At that time, also, Batman had already warned people which beauty products NOT to consume.
Are you honestly trying to sell the idea that only people in the modelling industry use things like hairspray, lipstick and deodorant? Pull the other one. Every day working people use things like that all the time. My mother uses things like that and she is far from being a model lol.

As for the beauty parlor comment, women from all walks of life from housewives, to office workers, to waitresses go to beauty parlors to get their hair and nails done.

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Saying that Joker was trying to poison everyone is an unfounded assumption. It's not in the movie. Joker chose his deadly weapon based on what people he was trying to kill.
"I know what you're saying. Where can I get these fine new items? Well that's the gag. Chances are you bought them already"

They were in products any ordinary Joe would buy.

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You're right.
Ok, so why are you making out like it's a case of corruption? It's not corrupt to be greedy taking a freebie.

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And best way to make people kill is to put a gun against their heads. Not a mystery exactly.
Obviously it's not is it, since nobody blew each other up. Human nature is not to kill, even under pressure if they can help it. People will actually put their own lives at risk to help save other people's lives.

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And it's naive to think that everyone would risk everything for money. But we're talking in general here I think.
Nobody saw it as a risk. They didn't act nervous or scared of Joker. They were not apprehensive or cautious at the parade. People didn't give a damn. They were all enthusiastic about getting their free money.

Even hypothetically if we bought into your argument that Joker was only after models, why would they have reason to see it as a risk, unless they were all beauty models lol.

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But, as TDK showed, when their families are threatened, most Gotham people don't hesitate to try and shoot an innocent man. Not even if they're a cop.
You saw a total of three people out of a population of millions make an attempt on Reese's life. Three. I don't need to be a statistician to tell you definitively those numbers don't show a general consensus that people will kil under pressure.

A point that was reaffirmed again in the ferry scene, only with even higher stakes.

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And, anyways, Joker's boats experiment only needed one person to push the button. But hey, suddenly everyone in Gotham, even convicts, are too noble. That's naive.
396 people voted in favor of pushing the button, the majority. But nobody actually had it in them themselves to do it. That's the difference. They can want to do it to save themselves, but they don't have it in them to take lives like that. That's reality.

As for the convicts, one convict, just one, took the decision out of their hands by tossing the detonator out the window.

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Old 03-10-2014, 06:48 PM   #713
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 4

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Charlie Manson had legions of followers after he was labelled a killer by the authorities and even locked up in prison, and he didn't have to offer them a free 20 million bucks either. It doesn't prove anything other than people are always up for a freebie.



I know that. That's not a social experiment. That's obvious, as was shown in the scene where Joker was ignored on TV until he mentioned free money. They didn't care he was on TV until he offered them something nice for free. People will always come if they're offered something for free. Common human nature. No experiment involved or needed.



Yes you do. Because to assume everyone will slaughter hundreds of people to save themselves is not a clear cut conclusion like taking free money.



In the bar scene in TDK when Joker makes his announcement after blowing up Gotham hospital you see everyone watching intently and then they clear out of the bar when he tells them "If you don't want to be in the game get out now".



They didn't have to listen to a word he was saying. But they did. That's the difference between the people in Gotham in B'89 and TDK. One set never seem scared of him or even acted like he was important unless they were getting something out of it. Whereas in TDK you saw Gotham's people panicked and scared of him several times. Which is more normal and believable.

Be realistic. If the guy who has been terrorizing your city with mass murder gets on TV, people will pay close attention, whether they have a choice or not. That's common sense.



It is never specified that he is only killing certain types of people just because the first two victims were models. The news says there's another 6 deaths later, and they never specify they're models or anything. You're just making an unfounded assumption there.



No it's not. Not even close. Nobody was forcing them to go and take this money. They were not backed into a corner. They were just greedy. Hence why Knox points at them and says "Gotham's greed", not "Gotham's desperation". That was Burton's statement on this situation. They were acting out of greed not need.



Ok. And when I said it wasn't a social experiment I meant it. It was just a set up to lure Batman and the citizens to him. Best way to gather a crowd is offer something for free.



Why not? It's naive to think anyone will kill other innocent lives to just save their own neck. I was glad TDK showed that.

Normal people actually want to help their fellow man, and they certainly don't want to be responsible for taking lives. Look at the Boston Marathon bombings. People actually ran toward an area that had just been rocked by multiple explosions in order to help the injured. Not just police, regular people did this. There was no reason to assume things are safe when two explosions just occurred. They helped their fellow man knowing full well they were potentially putting themselves in harm's way.



No they're not, and that's the thing these people did have time consider these things since they had half an hour til midnight, and they expected someone else to push the trigger and have that blood on their hands.

That's why nobody would get up and do it, except for that one guy because "No one wants to get their hands dirty", and even then he couldn't do it when push came to shove. It's one thing to say yeah we should pull the trigger and then expect someone else to do the deed, but it's another to actually do it yourself.

What people say and what they do are two entirely different things. It's easy to be callous, cold, and uncaring in a hypothetical. When it comes down to actually pulling the trigger most people wouldn't and in cases of a large crowd gathered together groupthink more often than not becomes the deciding factor.
Interesting discussion, and I pretty much agree with everything you said, Joker. Though the ending of TDK is what I hope would happen. I'm not entirely convinced that nobody would pull the trigger on that boat.

But yes, Gotham's greed was what we saw in B'89. Like many of Burton's early films, the culture in his film was a satire about what he hated of the modern world. In the late 1980s, he was making fun of a decade of excess, "greed is good," (yeah Stone meant it as a chilling realization, but Wall Street turned it into a bumper sticker). Same with high fashion and excess. If Edward Scissorhands was his mockery of the suburbs, his Batman films mocked what he saw as the pretensions of urban culture, and its vapidity in the case of the first movie.

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Old 03-11-2014, 03:46 AM   #714
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 4

Anybody else find B89 the most re-watchable among the Bat films? I find myself coming back to this movie time and time again. It has flaws, but it has that magic. It's still the most iconic Batman movie yet IMO. I'm gonna re-watch this again.

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Old 03-11-2014, 04:01 AM   #715
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 4

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Anybody else find B89 the most re-watchable among the Bat films? I find myself coming back to this movie time and time again. It has flaws, but it has that magic. It's still the most iconic Batman movie yet IMO. I'm gonna re-watch this again.
I'm with you on this

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Old 03-11-2014, 04:58 AM   #716
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 4

I definitely agree that Batman 89 had satirical elements. I thought they were done well.

Joker in 89 was using peoples vanity and greed against them. Making a mockery out of the culture at the time. Joker in TDK was using peoples dishonest and situational righteousness against them. Making a mockery out of the post 9/11 attitudes and sense of morality.

That's why neither portrayal of the Joker is better or worse, only different, yet both still very well done and fitting to their eras.

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Old 03-11-2014, 05:04 AM   #717
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 4

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Anybody else find B89 the most re-watchable among the Bat films? I find myself coming back to this movie time and time again. It has flaws, but it has that magic. It's still the most iconic Batman movie yet IMO. I'm gonna re-watch this again.
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I'm with you on this
I, unfortunately, am not.

Like most, it was a huge part of my childhood (made me a Batfan), but I tried to watch it twice last year and nearly fell asleep both times. First time, turned it off when Joker was talking to Vale in the museum, second time made it to the Batmobile arriving in the cave (great scene).

It was so... boring. I'll try it again this year, hopefully it comes off better.

I made it through Batman Returns twice, however. Thoroughly enjoyed most of it.

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Old 03-11-2014, 05:45 AM   #718
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 4

B89 is hugely rewatchable. The Axis Chemicals sequence remains my favourite in any Batman movie. It's interesting to note how often it is referenced in the comics nowadays- I think the scene in the movie has bled back into the source material, in that respect.

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Old 03-11-2014, 06:07 AM   #719
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 4

I love everything about 89. The mysterious characterisation of Batman, Jack's Joker, the visuals and atmosphere, the satirical elements. It's definitely my favourite Batman movie.

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Old 03-11-2014, 08:53 AM   #720
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 4

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Anybody else find B89 the most re-watchable among the Bat films?
No. In fact I prefer Batman Returns over it. It's more deep, complex and psychological, and I think the character dynamics between Batman, Penguin and Catwoman are much more interesting. B'89 is a fun watch, but I think it's plot is too basic, and Batman doesn't have much to do in it character wise. I also really disliked the Joker being the killer of Batman's parents twist. It's one change I couldn't get on board with.

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I, unfortunately, am not.

Like most, it was a huge part of my childhood (made me a Batfan), but I tried to watch it twice last year and nearly fell asleep both times. First time, turned it off when Joker was talking to Vale in the museum, second time made it to the Batmobile arriving in the cave (great scene).

It was so... boring.
Interestingly Burton considers the movie boring. I think he even called it more cultural phenomenon than good movie.

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Old 03-11-2014, 10:56 AM   #721
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 4

To be honest as much as I hate to say this I find TDK and TDKR to be the two that have the smallest amount of rewatch value for me even though I love them.

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Old 03-11-2014, 10:59 AM   #722
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 4

Am I the only one who liked Joker killing Batman's parents?

It worked for the context of the film, and added a little more to something basic.

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Old 03-11-2014, 11:02 AM   #723
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 4

I don't think it added anything. The whole "I made you, you made me" thing was only dropped in at the end, and was not really explored in the movie itself. It was added last minute to the script during the writers strike, and it felt like it in the movie. Tacked on.

It just felt like a quick device to make it more personal between Batman and Joker, and it didn't need to be since Joker already blamed Batman for his disfigurement.

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Old 03-11-2014, 11:07 AM   #724
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 4

I think it needed to be personal for Batman's sake.

However, like you said, it was dropped in at the last minute. If the movie explored Bruce's discovery of Jack being his parents killer earlier on, it would've been a lot better. It was just brushed upon and Batman's reaction to him at the end wasn't bitter or angry enough for me.

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Old 03-11-2014, 11:12 AM   #725
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 4

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Am I the only one who liked Joker killing Batman's parents?
I like it

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I don't think it added anything. The whole "I made you, you made me" thing was only dropped in at the end, and was not really explored in the movie itself. It was added last minute to the script during the writers strike, and it felt like it in the movie. Tacked on.
When I watch the moment Batman grabbing Jack's hand before falling into that vat, sometimes the look on Batman's face seem like "Why am I trying to save you? I should off you"
Other times it feels like "Oh no, my hand is slipping"

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