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Old 03-12-2014, 08:26 PM   #776
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 4

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Old 03-12-2014, 08:36 PM   #777
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 4

Well, Joker, I don't agree with you about the graveside vows in MOTP. It's clear to me that his parents are talking to him and they're answering back. No question about it.


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What episode was this?
Old Wounds I believe, specifically when he finds out Barbara was involved.

Towards the end he does come around when he sees what Bruce did for that reformed crook. But later on he has some problems with Bruce and his stability.



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Like who?
Smallville, Ma Kent.




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"This is my gift. My curse. Who am I? I'm Spider-Man" Peter Parker's internal monologue to himself. Thinking of himself as Spider-Man in his mind doesn't make him crazy any more than it does Batman.

That's actually not an internal monologue, he's breaking the 4th wall and telling a story to the audience. It's Shakespearean in a sense.

"Who am I? You sure you want to know? The story of my life is not for the faint of heart. If somebody said it was a happy little tale, if somebody told you I was just your average ordinary guy, not a care in the world, somebody lied."

Then if you were really unsure he was talking to someone else (i.e. us),

"But let me assure you, this, like any other story worth telling, is all about a girl. That girl, The girl next door. Mary Jane Watson. The woman I loved since before I even liked girls. I'd like to tell you that's me next to her."

"Heck, I'd even take him."

Nowhere is it stated that Peter actually thinks of himself as Spider-Man. Spider-Man 2 even deals with this notion. He's telling a story.



DCAU Bruce? He literally thinks he's Batman. It's not a mask, or a mantle. He refers to himself, his conscious, as Batman. He's not telling the audience a story like Peter Parker, he was LITERALLY thinking that in his head. He's not BRUCE, he's Batman.


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Old 03-12-2014, 08:51 PM   #778
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 4

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Well, Joker, I don't agree with you about the graveside vows in MOTP. It's clear to me that his parents are talking to him and they're answering back. No question about it.
I'm questioning it. Because it's absolutely normal for anyone to talk to a grave where someone they love is buried. Bruce is no different.

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Old Wounds I believe, specifically when he finds out Barbara was involved.

Towards the end he does come around when he sees what Bruce did for that reformed crook. But later on he has some problems with Bruce.
I know the scene you mean. It's when he finds out Barbara is Batgirl, and then learns Bruce knew all along, and accuses him of putting Barbara in danger, and she says she volunteered, and Dick says she thinks she did but Batman just manipulated her. Which is BS. He never did anything of the kind. Dick was just reacting in anger. This is the scene where he quits being Robin. He even punches Batman.

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Smallville, Ma Kent.
In other words an outsider who doesn't know him.

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That's actually not an internal monologue, he's breaking the 4th wall and telling a story to the audience. It's Shakespearean in a sense.

"Who am I? You sure you want to know? The story of my life is not for the faint of heart. If somebody said it was a happy little tale, if somebody told you I was just your average ordinary guy, not a care in the world, somebody lied."

Then if you were really unsure he was talking to someone else (i.e. us),

"But let me assure you, this, like any other story worth telling, is all about a girl. That girl, The girl next door. Mary Jane Watson. The woman I loved since before I even liked girls. I'd like to tell you that's me next to her."

"Heck, I'd even take him."

Nowhere is it stated that Peter actually thinks of himself as Spider-Man. Spider-Man 2 even deals with this notion. He's telling a story.



"I'm Spider-Man and I'm not going to fail"





Yeah, Peter Parker is telling a story in the movies, but at the end he says "Who am I? I'm Spider-Man". Meaning that's who he thinks he really is, like he does in the comics such as the ones I posted. In his thoughts he refers to himself as Spider-Man. That doesn't mean he's crazy.

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Old 03-12-2014, 09:01 PM   #779
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 4

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I'm questioning it. Because it's absolutely normal for anyone to talk to a grave where someone they love is buried. Bruce is no different.
But not to answer.

If Bruce doesn't want to do it (become a vigilante), he doesn't have to. We even see him going through this with the sketch book and Alfred literally the scene before the graveyard.

What does he do though? He goes to their graveside, on his hands and knees BEGGING and PLEADING with them that there's another way and that he doesn't want to do this. He goes on and on like they're answering him (like Andrea also does, who I would say is crazy). He holds his head in shame and begs his parents until Andrea approaches. Seems evident like he's begging them because they won't listen and they keep telling him to keep his vow, why else would he be having this conversation aloud with them.

It's a closed case in my opinion. Not that he's crazy, but that he's talking to his folks and he hears them answering back.


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Yeah, Peter Parker is telling a story in the movies, but at the end he says "Who am I? I'm Spider-Man". Meaning that's who he thinks he is, like he does in the comics.

Spider-Man 2


"Who am I? I'm Spider-Man, given a job to do. And I'm Peter Parker and I, too, have a job."

Comparing this to old man Bruce who has given up the mantle for years is apples and oranges. This Batman (not movie, not comics), in his own head, refers to himself as Batman and doesn't consider himself Bruce Wayne. Closed book.

Comic Spider-Man? Sure, maybe he does the same thing with his little thought bubbles? Movie Spider-Man? Nope.

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Old 03-12-2014, 09:06 PM   #780
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 4

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But not to answer.

If Bruce doesn't want to do it (become a vigilante), he doesn't have to. We even see him going through this with the sketch book and Alfred literally the scene before the graveyard.

What does he do though? He goes to their graveside, on his hands and knees BEGGING and PLEADING with them that there's another way and that he doesn't want to do this. He goes on and on like they're answering him (like Andrea also does, who I would say is crazy). He holds his head in shame and begs until Andrea approaches.

It's a closed case in my opinion. Not that he's crazy, but that he's talking to his folks and he hears them answering back.
It's very black and white, milost. He does it because he's conflicted. He made a promise, and now he wants to break it. He's spent years prepping himself for this, and then Andrea comes along and throws a curve ball to it, and makes him want to live a normal life with her instead. That's a big thing.

Going to his parents' grave out of grief over this conflict he has and talking to their grave is perfectly normal.

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Spider-Man 2

"Who am I? I'm Spider-Man, given a job to do. And I'm Peter Parker and I, too, have a job."


Fair point. I'd forgotten about that line.

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Comparing this to old man Bruce who has given up the mantle for years is apples and oranges. This Batman (not movie, not comics), in his own head, he refers to himself as Batman and doesn't consider himself Bruce Wayne.

Comic Spider-Man? Sure, maybe he does the same thing with his little thought bubbles? Movie Spider-Man? Nope.
But the point is the same (just not in the case of the movie version). Spider-Man in the comics is not crazy.

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Old 03-12-2014, 09:11 PM   #781
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 4

I don't know enough about comics Spider-Man to "diagnose him". I'm not an avid reader or fan of Spider-Man comics like I am with Batman, so I wouldn't know. I do know that Batman is murkier territory though, and has been for decades. There's always been a touch of madness to the character of Batman. BTAS is no different.

Whether someone thinks he's nuts or not is up to one's perception/interpretation of the character. The bottom line, BTAS Batman has come across as crazy/unhinged (even if he may not be) AND has had sadistic and creepy smiles (like his "imma rape Rupert" face). That's all.


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Old 03-12-2014, 09:30 PM   #782
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 4

Arthur Reeves: [on TV] What kind of city are we running when we depend on the support of a potential madman!
[clicks off]
Alfred: What rot, sir! Why you're the very model of sanity. Oh by the way, I pressed your tights and put away your exploding gas balls.
Bruce Wayne: Thank you, Alfred.

I think that funny little exchange was a statement that Bruce is quite sane but it's easy to see why people can mistake him as crazy.

Btw milost, it is good to see you back again in full force.

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Old 03-12-2014, 09:44 PM   #783
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 4

I absolutely agree with The Joker, and I love the fact that so many citizens in the Batverse, as well as fans and writers in real life, seem to think Bruce/Batman is crazy when, IMO, he's not.

Every time they have psycologists on a Batman related documentary, they all pretty much say that Bruce has no major psycological disorders.

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Old 03-12-2014, 09:56 PM   #784
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 4

Thanks Joker.

And yeah, that's a great exchange. BTAS Alfred is easily my favorite Alfred out of any interpretation, from comic to film. That dry wit and that proper sensibility that version had was brilliant.

Also, while we're on the subject, I always go back to Perchance to Dream. Remember, the Mad Hatter doesn't actually control Bruce's actions or his dream world. That's not even actually the Mad Hatter in there. That is Bruce's own world that he creates out of his own wants and desires (his parents living, Selina, no super villains etc.)

I think it's telling when you essentially have him up there with himself in a bell tower (Bats in the belfry, just like Batman 1989) by the end of it, fighting himself. Even if it isn't a dream, he's willing to kill himself because that sort of happy life doesn't compute and is a lie he wouldn't want to live (even though he actually would considering it's his unique dream). The symbolism is all there. Batman even says to himself "you're not well, Mr. Wayne. You need professional help" and Leslie Thomkins' "Bruce Wayne, who has never had to work for what he wants, is jealous of the personality of Batman, whose every deed has great value".

Hatter isn't in control of that internal conflict, that's all Bruce/Batman (in fact, I think Hatter wanted nothing more than Bruce to be content with himself so he'd stay out of his hair, which obviously didn't happen). So while he might not be crazy, he is certainly unbalanced. Perchance to Dream, I am the Night, and Dreams in Darkness all play around with the mental dilemma that Batman is facing, from craziness, to darkness, to hurting others to being responsible for their fates. That's why I think it's quite sad how Perchance ends with the "what dreams are made of" ending. Let's remember, he not only refers to himself as Batman, but also as vengeance and the night (more than once, he even tells Grayson that he somehow "owned the night" and became it while Grayson looks at him confused). How many Batman interpretations can we say think that way? Not many. It's not just a metaphor for him, he actually believes it.

That suit up sequence in Mask of the Phantasm where Alfred is shocked at what he sees is probably the best Batman scene, period.

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Old 03-12-2014, 09:58 PM   #785
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 4

I wouldn't call Batman insane. I would say he's psychologically damaged. That doesn't make him "crazy", per se, just irrevocably scarred by tragedy.

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Old 03-13-2014, 06:53 AM   #786
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 4

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I wouldn't call Batman insane. I would say he's psychologically damaged. That doesn't make him "crazy", per se, just irrevocably scarred by tragedy.
Agreed. This is how I see it.

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Old 03-13-2014, 07:05 AM   #787
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 4

Well, a guy dresses up like a bat he clearly has issues.

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Old 03-13-2014, 07:11 AM   #788
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 4

If Batman were insane, his state of mind would prevent him from having normal perception, behavior, and social interaction. In other words, he would be mentally ill.

However, I believe Bruce Wayne was perfectly capable of living a normal life, but it's simply not the life he chose. And even as Batman, I'd say he has relatively normal perceptions about the world around him. He's not a lunatic because (for the most part) he's in control of himself and his actions. This goes for the comics, films, and animated universe.

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Old 03-13-2014, 07:16 AM   #789
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 4

Bruce Wayne isn't insane... but he's clearly got psychological issues. I don't see how this can be denied. A key trait of him is his utter obsession, to an almost unhealthy degree. That alone indicates he ain't normal and can't be compared to someone like Peter Parker.

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Old 03-13-2014, 07:17 AM   #790
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Bruce Wayne isn't insane... but he's clearly got psychological issues. I don't see how this can be denied. A key trait of him is his utter obsession, to an almost unhealthy degree. That alone indicates he ain't normal and can't be compared to someone like Peter Parker.
Good point. Many people have unhealthy obsessions/addictions and psychological issues which do not make them insane.

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Old 03-13-2014, 07:32 AM   #791
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I'm with theShape on this.

Frank Miller's Batman might take it to another level, and I love it, but not as the default character.

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Old 03-17-2014, 05:08 PM   #792
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However, I believe Bruce Wayne was perfectly capable of living a normal life, but it's simply not the life he chose.
^ This 100%, and if I may I'd also like to compound on Milost's point by referencing Perchance to Dream because that episode spells out it more than any other.

You have to understand that Bruce had been given a taste of the ultimate temptation, a heavenly existence where everything is the way he wanted it to be and all of his deepest fears had been cast aside. Most mortal men would not have the courage or the will to deny themselves of such temptation but that is precisely what Bruce does. Because in Bruce's mind continuing to live that life would be taking the easy way out.

When Bruce jumps to his death at the end of the episode it is not out of fear but out of desire. Because in his mind he would rather die than have to live a life where happiness is handed to him on a silver platter instead of having to work towards it. That it is not the destination that matters but the journey in which that destination is arrived.

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Old 03-17-2014, 05:18 PM   #793
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 4

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You have to understand that Bruce had been given a taste of the ultimate temptation, a heavenly existence where everything is the way he wanted it to be and all of his deepest fears had been cast aside.
And in the episode he embraces that, after having a little chat with Leslie Thompkins who explains to him that his whole Batman life had just been a delusion based on some kind of repressed guilt or something. He's delighted - "Then....the nightmare is finally over". He goes home, hugs his dad warmly, tells him he's never felt better. Then invites him and his Mom out to dinner that night with him and Selina.

It isn't until he goes to read a newspaper and books that he realizes he's not living in reality but a dream because the print is unintelligible. That's when he rejects it.

As for this whole suicide bit, when he confronts Mad Hatter dressed as Batman, Mad Hatter TELLS him that he is right, he is living in a dream. So it's confirmed for him. Bruce would rather risk dying than be trapped living in a complete lie fantasy forever.

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Old 03-17-2014, 07:20 PM   #794
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 4

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Old 03-17-2014, 11:18 PM   #795
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 4

I've been playing this version of the NES Batman89 game on my Wii. It's the exact same game, but the graphics are a bit smoother, and his suit is black like in the movie, and not blue like the original game. Same music and everything, just a bit more updated.

VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:

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Old 03-17-2014, 11:25 PM   #796
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 4

You're lucky. I'd love to play those old school Batman games again.

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Old 03-18-2014, 12:50 AM   #797
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 4

the game is so much fun

great soundtrack too

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Old 03-18-2014, 07:01 AM   #798
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 4

I never had opportunity to play any of B89 or BR games.

You're so lucky.

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Old 03-18-2014, 01:00 PM   #799
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 4

The C64 version was great. It really got the most out of that typewriter's weedy sound capability.

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Old 03-19-2014, 08:58 AM   #800
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You're lucky. I'd love to play those old school Batman games again.
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I never had opportunity to play any of B89 or BR games.

You're so lucky.
You can still play them.

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