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View Poll Results: How do you feel about Goyer writing the script for the first Superman Batman film
His work on MOS was VERY GOOD. He'll do GREAT. 27 20.45%
His work on MOS was OKAY. I am Skecptical. 30 22.73%
His work on MOS was POOR. I feel dread. 32 24.24%
He NEEDS Affleck's help and guidance to deliver a great script 43 32.58%
Voters: 132. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 08-27-2013, 03:11 PM   #51
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer!

Its easy to point out Goyer's flaws and ignore his strengths, isn't it?

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Old 08-27-2013, 03:34 PM   #52
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer!

Henry Cavill's reaction after reading the finished Man Of Steel 2 script when he sees he has even less footage than Man Of Steel.


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Old 08-27-2013, 03:37 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Rowsdower! View Post

- Introducing a doomsday device (which is common in almost every superhero movie and I personally love them because it raises the stakes) that is actually the opposite of a doomsday device and yet will wipe out humanity regardless.
I think this was a very bad idea. It was like TDKR all over again, all these climaxes of OMG last moment ****.

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Old 08-27-2013, 03:37 PM   #54
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I'm not sure where the idea of this being a bad script came from.

It may not have been the Superman movie some of the more crazed, idealogical (or stuck in the past) fans may have wanted, but that does not equal a bad script.

The story made logical sense, the characters behaved appropriately in their given situations, and there were no major plot holes that made me question the entire point of the film. While it wasn't a perfect script, I don't see it being the worst thing to ever happen to comic book movies.

It was fine, Goyer is fine, and I am interested to see what he does with expanding this universe, which is so much better than any of the previous live action Superman films.

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Old 08-27-2013, 03:39 PM   #55
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer!

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I'm not sure where the idea of this being a bad script came from.

It may not have been the Superman movie some of the more crazed, idealogical (or stuck in the past) fans may have wanted, but that does not equal a bad script.

The story made logical sense, the characters behaved appropriately in their given situations, and there were no major plot holes that made me question the entire point of the film. While it wasn't a perfect script, I don't see it being the worst thing to ever happen to comic book movies.

It was fine, Goyer is fine, and I am interested to see what he does with expanding this universe, which is so much better than any of the previous live action Superman films.
If you see the poll, only 9 out of 45 thought it was good, 20%. Most people hated the script.

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Old 08-27-2013, 03:40 PM   #56
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer!

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Originally Posted by Rowsdower! View Post
- Presenting Clark as a good and heroic man who is nevertheless conflicted over what he has to do, due to his father's advice and the evil nature of mankind.
I think Clark is a good man despite his father's advice. He was even scolded for saving the drowning kids just because he could have exposed himself, which we then were showed to don't matter since no one believes a few crazy people that talk about a supernatural child. Clark didn't get any encouragement to be a hero until he met his real father, so Goyer basically removed the vital aspect where being raised as human is a big part of him being good. To me that alienates him more than other incarnations.

I'm not going to say that Goyer can't have any good ideas though. I do think he brings some bad ones too though.

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Old 08-27-2013, 03:41 PM   #57
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer!

The death scene of papa Kent is absolutely horrible.

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Old 08-27-2013, 03:42 PM   #58
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer!

Why are doomsday devices/scenarios a bad idea? At least it gives the hero something other than the villain himself that he has to deal with. If it's a bad idea here and TDKR, then it was a bad idea in Batman, Batman Begins, Spider-Man 2, Thor, Captain America, The Avengers, etc. My only complaint about the World Engine was that I don't think they needed to have the ship split in half like that; they could have just made it part of the regular ship and had Superman battles its defenses in Metropolis while Lois and Hardy attempted to send it back to the Phantom Zone.

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Old 08-27-2013, 03:42 PM   #59
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer!

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Its easy to point out Goyer's flaws and ignore his strengths, isn't it?
Yep. And Goyer's still better than a lot of WB hited writers out there. You really want the writers of Jonah Hex back on board?

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Old 08-27-2013, 03:45 PM   #60
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer!

He is a great idea man, but cannot write good dialogue. If they hand the dialogue duties to someone else, I will be fine with the decision.

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Old 08-27-2013, 03:54 PM   #61
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^ I agree. The dialog in MOS (generally) was either trying too hard "I'm a prize winning reporterr!" or not hard enough (Release the World Engine!).

There were moments (Where did you learn to train? On a farm?!), but overall the script felt like it couldn't allow characters to interact without conveying some type of information (though there are a few exceptions, such as the Ma and Clark scene near the end)

I think the script isn't particularly impressive, but it does have some good moments here and there.

And I LIKED the movie.

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Old 08-27-2013, 03:54 PM   #62
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer!

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The death scene of papa Kent is absolutely horrible.
It wasn't that bad.

The death of Thomas Wayne in Batman Begins was really weird... "It's ok... It's ok".

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Old 08-27-2013, 04:06 PM   #63
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowsdower! View Post
- Introducing Lois as a tough, investigative journalist who is tracking Superman, as opposed to a chain smoking ditz that can't spell.
I do like this one a lot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowsdower! View Post
- Making Zod simply a man driven (and genetically engineered) to preserve the Kryptonian race, no matter the cost, rather than simply a power mad nutbar who just wants everyone to kneel in front of him.

- Presenting Clark as a good and heroic man who is nevertheless conflicted over what he has to do, due to his father's advice and the evil nature of mankind.

- Introducing a doomsday device (which is common in almost every superhero movie and I personally love them because it raises the stakes) that is actually the opposite of a doomsday device and yet will wipe out humanity regardless.

- Showing really great scenes of young Clark and his family, giving us an understanding of his upbringing and the type of people they were.
These are all ok, but hardly original or brilliant. And some of these would have come off way better if better thought through and executed. I suppose that's partly the fault of the directing.

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- Making Jor-El a badass, even as a hologram.
Jor-El as a badass was kind of cool, but it really didn't make sense that he could beat up Zod, who was a bred and trained fighter and military leader. This idea was actually one of the weaker ones that I didn't mind at all though.

I did not like the presence of Jor-el the hologram. At least not the way he's presented here, as basically a plot convenience who gets Lois out of the ship and tells Lois and Clark how to solve the Zod problem. It's not as interesting when they're just told what to do vs seeing them work it out themselves with their wits and ingenuity.
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Those are just a few.
Of course, this is all subjective and I'm sure you'll refute all of this as stupid, but I could just as easily tell you that you're wrong.
I could just as easily refute you too. I have yet to see anyone convince someone into changing their minds here.

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Old 08-27-2013, 04:18 PM   #64
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer!

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Originally Posted by slumcat View Post
The death scene of papa Kent is absolutely horrible.
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:


One day mankind will harness the power of hyperbole. Till that day, we have more luck sustaining atomic power and cold fusion.

I personally enjoyed that scene. On it's own and in comparison with the way it's been adapted in the past. I fear in any other movie it might have actually stood a chance at a fair reception.

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Old 08-27-2013, 04:51 PM   #65
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer!

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One day mankind will harness the power of hyperbole. Till that day, we have more luck sustaining atomic power and cold fusion.

I personally enjoyed that scene. On it's own and in comparison with the way it's been adapted in the past. I fear in any other movie it might have actually stood a chance at a fair reception.
I doubt what movie it was in had any relevance. We had the growing hero choose not to save his father (on his father's command) just to avoid being exposed himself, something we had been shown that it could be swept under the rug. Making the hero let his own father die for something like that paints him in a bad light to me, and it would be my opinion even if it wasn't Superman.

I'd easily take the risk of having to claim that the witnesses are crazy, or even have to move, if I could have my father live. The scene would have made more sense if Superman either had to make a choice to save one parent, or tried to save his father but failed for some reason. Showing us that his great power can't overcome everything and have him be down because he for a long time feels that he should have been better since he is powerful. That would have created sympathy.

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Old 08-27-2013, 04:54 PM   #66
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer!

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Its easy to point out Goyer's flaws and ignore his strengths, isn't it?
Plus 1.

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Old 08-27-2013, 04:59 PM   #67
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer!

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I doubt what movie it was in had any relevance. We had the growing hero choose not to save his father (on his father's command) just to avoid being exposed himself, something we had been shown that it could be swept under the rug. Making the hero let his own father die for something like that paints him in a bad light to me, and it would be my opinion even if it wasn't Superman.

I'd easily take the risk of having to claim that the witnesses are crazy, or even have to move, if I could have my father live. The scene would have made more sense if Superman either had to make a choice to save one parent, or tried to save his father but failed for some reason. Showing us that his great power can't overcome everything and have him be down because he for a long time feels that he should have been better since he is powerful. That would have created sympathy.
I feel it was less him fearing having to explain himself to the public, and more the respect he had for his father, and what his father believed was right for Clark. His death in a sense was a symbol of connection he's always had between him and his father. No matter how much he wanted to save him.

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Old 08-27-2013, 05:05 PM   #68
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He is a great idea man, but cannot write good dialogue. If they hand the dialogue duties to someone else, I will be fine with the decision.
I'm actually really forgiving of bad dialogue. It would have to be really really really bad for me to notice. I didn't even have a problem with 'release the world engine', and didn't think any of the rest of the dialogue was earsplittingly bad. So it must have been the overall story and ideas that I had a problem with.

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Old 08-27-2013, 05:08 PM   #69
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer!

Think he's the best superhero screenwriter around. Followed by Shane Black.

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Old 08-27-2013, 05:22 PM   #70
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I trust him. He has been linked to some of the greatest comic adaptations of our generation.

If the people who constantly jab at his storytelling can do any better, I welcome them to go make some money and write the next classic comic book screenplay.
Agreed!

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Old 08-27-2013, 05:40 PM   #71
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If you see the poll, only 9 out of 45 thought it was good, 20%. Most people hated the script.
If I carried through life deciding what is good or bad based on majority opinion, I would love Twilight. Not. Going. To. Happen.

And no, the poll says that 30 people hated the script, 21 thought it was fine, or really loved it. So it's a bit closer than you think.

As for Jonathan's death, I don't know why people are fussed.

Yes, he told Clark that the world would be afraid of him. Clark explains that to Lois as well, I think mainly because she blew off his request for privacy.

Jonathan told Clark that he had to know who he was when he stepped in front of the world. He told his son numerous times that he was going to change the world. He also told Clark that he had to know how to temper his powers with compassion.

What Jonathan wanted was for Clark to be able to grow up, to know who he was, so that he could face the world, even if it wasn't ready for him. This is not guesswork; it's exactly what Jonathan says in the film.

Jonathan chose death, because he was afraid of what the world would do to Clark, and how Clark might deal with that. He knew Clark wasn't ready to shoulder the burdens his powers gave to him.

I don't think Jonathan's death was wasted. Clark was able to continue to grow and mature, and was able to figure out what it was he wanted to do with his life.

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Old 08-27-2013, 05:55 PM   #72
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer!

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I feel it was less him fearing having to explain himself to the public, and more the respect he had for his father, and what his father believed was right for Clark. His death in a sense was a symbol of connection he's always had between him and his father. No matter how much he wanted to save him.
It could be what they were going for, but it didn't resonate with me. I can directly relate to losing a parent and there's no way anyone could stop me from changing that if I knew I could for such a small price. I think the whole set up in the scene felt weird as well as why not let your indestructible son get the dog? I get the protective father issue but you also have a responsibility with your life towards your family since you devastate them by throwing it away.

They also went too far with the emotional moment since Jonathan can't just stand there calmly when the wind is strong enough to lift cars just a few meters behind him. For me all parts of the scene fell apart.

I'm not going to harp on that more since there's a new movie to discuss, but I hope they do better next time.

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Old 08-27-2013, 05:57 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Rowsdower! View Post
- Introducing Lois as a tough, investigative journalist who is tracking Superman, as opposed to a chain smoking ditz that can't spell.

- Making Zod simply a man driven (and genetically engineered) to preserve the Kryptonian race, no matter the cost, rather than simply a power mad nutbar who just wants everyone to kneel in front of him.

- Presenting Clark as a good and heroic man who is nevertheless conflicted over what he has to do, due to his father's advice and the evil nature of mankind.

- Introducing a doomsday device (which is common in almost every superhero movie and I personally love them because it raises the stakes) that is actually the opposite of a doomsday device and yet will wipe out humanity regardless.

- Showing really great scenes of young Clark and his family, giving us an understanding of his upbringing and the type of people they were.

- Making Jor-El a badass, even as a hologram.

Those are just a few.

Of course, this is all subjective and I'm sure you'll refute all of this as stupid, but I could just as easily tell you that you're wrong.
- Showing us in the first 15 minutes how cool a potential Jor-El prequel set on Krypton could be. That could have easily supported it's own film.

- Having Superman throw more punches and display more power than he ever has in live action cinema, which has been a complaint by Superman fans for years.

- Best interpretation of Ma and Pa Kent on screen that I've seen. Again, my opinion.

- Introduced Superman's costume in the most seamless, coolest, and most practical way possible. Krypton body suits under a layer of armor = genius.

- Gave us a non-cheesy Fortress of Solitude that was already built into the plot.

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Its easy to point out Goyer's flaws and ignore his strengths, isn't it?
It's the oldest trick in the book.

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Old 08-27-2013, 05:58 PM   #74
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer!

It seemed idiotic. Dang I love my life, I wouldn't throw it away just because a few people will see my son fly. It truly is being a dick to your wife if no one else.

And being Superman, I would have saved him in a heartbeat, with super-speed and all, people wouldn't even have realized what happened. I would do it for any life I could save much less my father's.

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Old 08-27-2013, 06:21 PM   #75
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It seemed idiotic. Dang I love my life, I wouldn't throw it away just because a few people will see my son fly. It truly is being a dick to your wife if no one else.

And being Superman, I would have saved him in a heartbeat, with super-speed and all, people wouldn't even have realized what happened. I would do it for any life I could save much less my father's.
And because you see it that way, goyer fails. Nothing on you but all on him.

I would ask, how do we know superman has faster than vision speed?

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