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Old 09-06-2013, 06:10 PM   #301
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Default Re: Marvels biggest slap in the face!!!

Don't worry, no movie or television advertising has ever decieved me to such an extent before or since

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Old 09-06-2013, 06:21 PM   #302
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Why? Do the commercials tell you about how the teams are going to play or what are they going to do?
I'll grant you that they're good at hiding bad writing.

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Old 09-06-2013, 06:26 PM   #303
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Again, not the quality of the commercials, but the emphasis on content in the commercials. If Superbowl commercials said Patriots vs Cowboys and when it gets to halftime- TWIST - it's actually Patriots vs Steelers! Doesn't mean it's a bad twist in its conception. For Patriots fans, it might be kinda awesome, but for those poor saps who paid money and stayed up til midnight to see the Cowboys play...

It could have been done better relatively easily. Killian could have been more interesting than fake Mandarin, but they didn't even really bother with his motivations and scarcely touched on a vague goal. Fake Mandarin could have been sick, grotesque, pitiful, a monster of a lesser degree... as any drug addict who'd just shot someone on national TV would be... but instead he was comedic, silly. It wasn't just a twist, it was a gag. The audience believing in this sort of super-terrorist was a big gag, there was nothing at the end of that anticipation but a punchline.

That's why I think the twist was meant to T off fans though, to be divisive, to draw attention to the real life comparison and how it's not addressed. The message it sends is: "Why aren't you mad about that? Why do you blindly accept all over there, and here it's like 'no, it should be better!' ?"



Seriously? You can't see how a twist that ratchets UP the danger and tension and deepens the story is more appealing than a twist that does the opposite? That's arbitrary to you?

And if the Dude is Stane... he was the villain from, like, the beginning, you could call that from looking at the magazine cover with both of them on it that they showed in the first three minutes, their whole relationship screamed: "I will betray you!" When he came and took out the other, less interesting villain about midway through the film (not just before the final act), that was about as much of a twist as Justin Hammer recruiting Whiplash.
Very well said. You summed up everything wrong with the twist and why it was the product of false marketing.

You brought up a great point regarding Black's intentions that I want to further expand on. On top of them brushing off the outraged fans as purists and falsely marketing their film with a gag, what really adds salt to the wound is the fact that Black did it not even for the sake of having a good plot twist but simply for the sake of being socially relevant. He admitted this himself. He didn't want to tell the Iron Man vs. Mandarin story that has been set up since the very first scene in IM1 and instead took that story, twisted it, and broke it to have it fit his political statement of social relevance. In other words, the film as a whole is a classic example of a Hollywood writer/director putting their politics before the story & potential at hand. These types of twists don't happen for the sake of good storytelling, but for the sake of the director/writer's own political agenda.

Since people love to take arguments out of context, I already expect people to reply to me saying that there is nothing wrong with bringing in politics and political statements into a story. No, there is nothing wrong with that indeed. But there is a world of difference between what something like The Dark Knight did and what something like Iron Man 3 did. Although TDK had many political themes in its story, none of those themes and ideas came before the story itself. The film still respected the story at hand and due to that, the political themes fit naturally in the story whenever they were touched on. At the end of the day, it was still a standard Batman vs. Joker story that continued Batman's character arc and growth from the previous film. It was a Batman story that just happens to be socially relevant due to the great writing. IM3 is a film that tries a lot to be socially relevant that just happens to be an Iron Man film.

It is very dangerous to give control of a major-property film to someone who is willing to throw almost anything away just to get their message out there. In my opinion, it is a mentality that can be and currently is very poisoning to any film coming from Hollywood. It is a mentality I hope Marvel does not continue with in the future.

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Old 09-06-2013, 08:39 PM   #304
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Every single complaint I'm hearing is about how the twist sucks. Again people, that does not mean the marketing was bad, why is that so hard to understand? You may not like the twist, but that does not mean that they were wrong to hide it in the marketing. Dr. Cosmic's complaints are about the twist ITSELF, but that's not the same as marketing, its that simple.

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Old 09-06-2013, 09:49 PM   #305
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so we reached the 'the trailers lied' part of the circle again? man, is this getting old.
what's next? is chris evans too skinny or should thor wear his helmet more often?
No, this time, Chris should keep his helmet on more, and Thor is too skinny.

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Old 09-06-2013, 10:09 PM   #306
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Every single complaint I'm hearing is about how the twist sucks. Again people, that does not mean the marketing was bad, why is that so hard to understand? You may not like the twist, but that does not mean that they were wrong to hide it in the marketing. Dr. Cosmic's complaints are about the twist ITSELF, but that's not the same as marketing, its that simple.
I kind of agree. Marketing or not, the twist sucked anyways.

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Old 09-06-2013, 10:23 PM   #307
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Every single complaint I'm hearing is about how the twist sucks. Again people, that does not mean the marketing was bad, why is that so hard to understand? You may not like the twist, but that does not mean that they were wrong to hide it in the marketing. Dr. Cosmic's complaints are about the twist ITSELF, but that's not the same as marketing, its that simple.
No one cares about the "marketing" because it's deceptive. They care about it because the twist sucked, made the film worse and de-escalated excitement of the film (in their eyes). If the twist was good, or elevated the film then they wouldn't be complaining about the "marketing".

It's that simple.

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Old 09-06-2013, 10:37 PM   #308
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Default Re: Marvels biggest slap in the face!!!

Comic fans will complain about anything; I know, as I am one.

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Old 09-06-2013, 10:47 PM   #309
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Comic fans will complain about anything; I know, as I am one.
Bingo!

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Old 09-07-2013, 12:19 AM   #310
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Comic fans will complain about anything; I know, as I am one.
I'm not a fan of the Iron-Man comics.

Avatar related; MFW no one addresses Killian's characterization.

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Old 09-07-2013, 12:23 AM   #311
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Killian's characterization connects to the screen image that Guy Pearce has established for himself, going back to the Count of Monte Cristo. And Sir Kingsley portrayed a deceptive character in Shutter Island.

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Old 09-07-2013, 05:24 AM   #312
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Default Re: Marvels biggest slap in the face!!!

After IM3 I have found new appreciation for TDKR'S Twist

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Old 09-07-2013, 05:39 AM   #313
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Final Battles that are way too Short.

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Old 09-07-2013, 07:56 AM   #314
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Very well said. You summed up everything wrong with the twist and why it was the product of false marketing.

You brought up a great point regarding Black's intentions that I want to further expand on. On top of them brushing off the outraged fans as purists and falsely marketing their film with a gag, what really adds salt to the wound is the fact that Black did it not even for the sake of having a good plot twist but simply for the sake of being socially relevant. He admitted this himself. He didn't want to tell the Iron Man vs. Mandarin story that has been set up since the very first scene in IM1 and instead took that story, twisted it, and broke it to have it fit his political statement of social relevance. In other words, the film as a whole is a classic example of a Hollywood writer/director putting their politics before the story & potential at hand. These types of twists don't happen for the sake of good storytelling, but for the sake of the director/writer's own political agenda.

Since people love to take arguments out of context, I already expect people to reply to me saying that there is nothing wrong with bringing in politics and political statements into a story. No, there is nothing wrong with that indeed. But there is a world of difference between what something like The Dark Knight did and what something like Iron Man 3 did. Although TDK had many political themes in its story, none of those themes and ideas came before the story itself. The film still respected the story at hand and due to that, the political themes fit naturally in the story whenever they were touched on. At the end of the day, it was still a standard Batman vs. Joker story that continued Batman's character arc and growth from the previous film. It was a Batman story that just happens to be socially relevant due to the great writing. IM3 is a film that tries a lot to be socially relevant that just happens to be an Iron Man film.

It is very dangerous to give control of a major-property film to someone who is willing to throw almost anything away just to get their message out there. In my opinion, it is a mentality that can be and currently is very poisoning to any film coming from Hollywood. It is a mentality I hope Marvel does not continue with in the future.
So if Nolan pads his stories with political commentary, it's okay; but if Shane Black does the same for an Iron Man film, that's bad. Gotcha.

And: "He didn't want to tell the Iron Man vs. Mandarin story that has been set up since the very first scene in IM1." Really? You think that an Iron Man vs. Mandarin story has been "set up since the very first scene in IM1?" That's an....unusual thing to say, considering that there is absolutely no evidence anywhere that The Mandarin even existed in the MCU until IM3. Nor, for that matter, was The Mandarin even intended to be part of *IM3* until Feige pushed for it after shooting had already begun....the original villain of IM3 was intended to be The Ghost, but then it was rewritten to be Killian and AIM. The "Mandarin Twist" wasn't added until late in the game to "appease" fanboy demands (more than a tad ironic, considering fanboy reaction to that twist).

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Old 09-07-2013, 08:11 AM   #315
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So if Nolan pads his stories with political commentary, it's okay; but if Shane Black does the same for an Iron Man film, that's bad. Gotcha.

And: "He didn't want to tell the Iron Man vs. Mandarin story that has been set up since the very first scene in IM1." Really? You think that an Iron Man vs. Mandarin story has been "set up since the very first scene in IM1?" That's an....unusual thing to say, considering that there is absolutely no evidence anywhere that The Mandarin even existed in the MCU until IM3. Nor, for that matter, was The Mandarin even intended to be part of *IM3* until Feige pushed for it after shooting had already begun....the original villain of IM3 was intended to be The Ghost, but then it was rewritten to be Killian and AIM. The "Mandarin Twist" wasn't added until late in the game to "appease" fanboy demands (more than a tad ironic, considering fanboy reaction to that twist).
The Ten Rings had a role in IM1 and suggested that they helped whiplash escape prison. Of course we don't know for sure if the Mandarin was the leader but "Ten Rings" felt like foreshadowing.

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Old 09-07-2013, 09:19 AM   #316
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Killian's characterization connects to the screen image that Guy Pearce has established for himself, going back to the Count of Monte Cristo. And Sir Kingsley portrayed a deceptive character in Shutter Island.
So I need to watch films outside of the Iron-Man franchise to appreciate the third film's Killian?

If Killian had some development in Iron-Man 1 or 2, or if those films influenced his character in Iron-Man 3, I wouldn't have a problem considering him as a sort of "summation" of those past developments.

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Old 09-07-2013, 09:48 AM   #317
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The Ten Rings had a role in IM1 and suggested that they helped whiplash escape prison. Of course we don't know for sure if the Mandarin was the leader but "Ten Rings" felt like foreshadowing.
Raza was either the leader of Ten Rings, or else his hypothetical boss was a crappy one. Raza wasn't answering to anybody in IM1: he cut a deal with Obadiah Stane on his own, and he reneged on that deal on his own by choosing to keep Tony Stark to make weapons for him. The buck stopped with Raza, and so did Ten Rings. Killian just appropriated the name of a defunct/scattered terrorist group to cover for his Extremis "accidents," and invented the character of The Mandarin whole cloth.

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Old 09-07-2013, 09:54 AM   #318
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Raza was either the leader of Ten Rings, or else his hypothetical boss was a crappy one. Raza wasn't answering to anybody in IM1: he cut a deal with Obadiah Stane on his own, and he reneged on that deal on his own by choosing to keep Tony Stark to make weapons for him. The buck stopped with Raza, and so did Ten Rings. Killian just appropriated the name of a defunct/scattered terrorist group to cover for his Extremis "accidents," and invented the character of The Mandarin whole cloth.
The "Ten Rings" in Iron Man 1 was an obvious reference to the Mandarin. Not sure what you're trying to argue but Raza could easily have been answering to a boss. Just because something doesn't happen on screen doesn't mean it's not happening lol

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Old 09-07-2013, 10:35 AM   #319
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The "Ten Rings" in Iron Man 1 was an obvious reference to the Mandarin. Not sure what you're trying to argue but Raza could easily have been answering to a boss. Just because something doesn't happen on screen doesn't mean it's not happening lol
Agreed. Someone making independent decisions, even important ones, doesn't mean they don't have a boss. It just means their boss is makign even more important decisions.

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Very well said. You summed up everything wrong with the twist and why it was the product of false marketing.

You brought up a great point regarding Black's intentions that I want to further expand on. On top of them brushing off the outraged fans as purists and falsely marketing their film with a gag, what really adds salt to the wound is the fact that Black did it not even for the sake of having a good plot twist but simply for the sake of being socially relevant. He admitted this himself. He didn't want to tell the Iron Man vs. Mandarin story that has been set up since the very first scene in IM1 and instead took that story, twisted it, and broke it to have it fit his political statement of social relevance. In other words, the film as a whole is a classic example of a Hollywood writer/director putting their politics before the story & potential at hand. These types of twists don't happen for the sake of good storytelling, but for the sake of the director/writer's own political agenda.

Since people love to take arguments out of context, I already expect people to reply to me saying that there is nothing wrong with bringing in politics and political statements into a story. No, there is nothing wrong with that indeed. But there is a world of difference between what something like The Dark Knight did and what something like Iron Man 3 did. Although TDK had many political themes in its story, none of those themes and ideas came before the story itself. The film still respected the story at hand and due to that, the political themes fit naturally in the story whenever they were touched on. At the end of the day, it was still a standard Batman vs. Joker story that continued Batman's character arc and growth from the previous film. It was a Batman story that just happens to be socially relevant due to the great writing. IM3 is a film that tries a lot to be socially relevant that just happens to be an Iron Man film.

It is very dangerous to give control of a major-property film to someone who is willing to throw almost anything away just to get their message out there. In my opinion, it is a mentality that can be and currently is very poisoning to any film coming from Hollywood. It is a mentality I hope Marvel does not continue with in the future.
That's an interesting take, I can understand that. The corollary however is: nothing is more important than entertainment. A movie can never have a political statement as its point. That kind of removes the art out of the medium, where the artist can only make statements that are commercially popular. That would be sad culturally, even though it certainly would be more fun.

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Old 09-07-2013, 10:39 AM   #320
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It was clear in IM1 then Mandarin was going to be the big villian in sequel .
Why put Easter eggs if not for mandarin .
I never liked the Twist anyway totally Degraded the Character .


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Old 09-07-2013, 10:52 AM   #321
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So if Nolan pads his stories with political commentary, it's okay; but if Shane Black does the same for an Iron Man film, that's bad. Gotcha.
Well, let's just remember that Nolan hasn't turned a twist in his movies into a terrible over-stretched joke. I mean, the friendly but clumsy little drunk routine?

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And: "He didn't want to tell the Iron Man vs. Mandarin story that has been set up since the very first scene in IM1." Really? You think that an Iron Man vs. Mandarin story has been "set up since the very first scene in IM1?" That's an....unusual thing to say, considering that there is absolutely no evidence anywhere that The Mandarin even existed in the MCU until IM3. Nor, for that matter, was The Mandarin even intended to be part of *IM3* until Feige pushed for it after shooting had already begun....the original villain of IM3 was intended to be The Ghost, but then it was rewritten to be Killian and AIM. The "Mandarin Twist" wasn't added until late in the game to "appease" fanboy demands (more than a tad ironic, considering fanboy reaction to that twist).
Oh. You never ever take artistic decisions based on what fans say.

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Old 09-07-2013, 11:47 AM   #322
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The Ten Rings build up being for nothing was very dissapointing too.

Apparently the writer of IM3 said that Killain has nothing to do with them and just used their name and imagery for his deception.

Raises the question why they didn't retaliate?

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Old 09-07-2013, 11:49 AM   #323
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The "Ten Rings" in Iron Man 1 was an obvious reference to the Mandarin. Not sure what you're trying to argue but Raza could easily have been answering to a boss. Just because something doesn't happen on screen doesn't mean it's not happening lol
It was a reference to the Mandarin, it was an easter egg to those in the audience who know their stuff, but it was not setting up the cinematic debut of Mandarin in a future Iron Man film.

Droid, what exactly was "built up" about the Ten Rings? They had a flag, dropped their name once, and then after Stane wipes out their sect led by Raza that's that. They never mentioned any higher-ups above Rasa, they never alluded to "bigger plans". They could have called the group any name, but they chose Ten Rings to perk that member of the audience who would say "Oh I know what they did there!"

Not to establish a main villain that would show up not one, but 2 films later.


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Old 09-07-2013, 11:57 AM   #324
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It was a reference to the Mandarin, it was an easter egg to those in the audience who know their stuff, but it was not setting up the cinematic debut of Mandarin in a future Iron Man film.
So SHIELD being included and Nick Furys appearing ans mentioning the "Avengers Initiative" was not setting up the debut of The Avengers?

The general audience didn't know what these things really meant at the time, same with Ten Rings

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Droid, what exactly was "built up" about the Ten Rings? They had a flag, dropped their name once, and then after Stane wipes out their sect led by Raza that's that. They never mentioned any higher-ups above Rasa, they never alluded to "bigger plans". They could have called the group any name, but they chose Ten Rings to perk that member of the audience who would say "Oh I know what they did there!"

Not to establish a main villain that would show up not one, but 2 films later.
They had the name the logo for a reason and it returned in IM2 when their organisation gave Vanko his papers.

If they weren't building it up as a real (not fake) criminal/terrorist organsization they they'd have called it something else in the first and not had the same one return in IM2

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Old 09-07-2013, 02:45 PM   #325
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During IM,I always thought Raza was intended to be "the man who would be Mandarin".(I can't be the only one who thought that.)

I figured Stane left him alive,without men or army to humiliate him,and that he'd be back,ticked off and stronger than ever (remember,he had Stark's primitive suit plans) by IM 3.

Comes IM 2.....virtually no Ten Rings involvement.....OK....

Then comes IM 3.Ben Kingsley is "thought to be" The Mandarin from the trailers,and I figured,"Oh,Cool.They decided to take an award winning actor for such an important role.Makes sense.I guess he was pulling the strings behind the Ten Rings all that time."

Then we get Guy freakin Pearce giving a throw-away reference while on fire near the movie's end. That's The Mandarin we've been waiting all this time for.

So,it's no surprise why some people were less than satisfied.

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