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Old 09-07-2013, 04:33 PM   #326
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Default Re: Marvels biggest slap in the face!!!

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Originally Posted by cherokeesam View Post
So if Nolan pads his stories with political commentary, it's okay; but if Shane Black does the same for an Iron Man film, that's bad. Gotcha.
I already addressed the difference between what Nolan and Black did.

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Very well said. You summed up everything wrong with the twist and why it was the product of false marketing.

You brought up a great point regarding Black's intentions that I want to further expand on. On top of them brushing off the outraged fans as purists and falsely marketing their film with a gag, what really adds salt to the wound is the fact that Black did it not even for the sake of having a good plot twist but simply for the sake of being socially relevant. He admitted this himself. He didn't want to tell the Iron Man vs. Mandarin story that has been set up since the very first scene in IM1 and instead took that story, twisted it, and broke it to have it fit his political statement of social relevance. In other words, the film as a whole is a classic example of a Hollywood writer/director putting their politics before the story & potential at hand. These types of twists don't happen for the sake of good storytelling, but for the sake of the director/writer's own political agenda.

Since people love to take arguments out of context, I already expect people to reply to me saying that there is nothing wrong with bringing in politics and political statements into a story. No, there is nothing wrong with that indeed. But there is a world of difference between what something like The Dark Knight did and what something like Iron Man 3 did. Although TDK had many political themes in its story, none of those themes and ideas came before the story itself. The film still respected the story at hand and due to that, the political themes fit naturally in the story whenever they were touched on. At the end of the day, it was still a standard Batman vs. Joker story that continued Batman's character arc and growth from the previous film. It was a Batman story that just happens to be socially relevant due to the great writing. IM3 is a film that tries a lot to be socially relevant that just happens to be an Iron Man film.

It is very dangerous to give control of a major-property film to someone who is willing to throw almost anything away just to get their message out there. In my opinion, it is a mentality that can be and currently is very poisoning to any film coming from Hollywood. It is a mentality I hope Marvel does not continue with in the future.
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And: "He didn't want to tell the Iron Man vs. Mandarin story that has been set up since the very first scene in IM1." Really? You think that an Iron Man vs. Mandarin story has been "set up since the very first scene in IM1?" That's an....unusual thing to say, considering that there is absolutely no evidence anywhere that The Mandarin even existed in the MCU until IM3. Nor, for that matter, was The Mandarin even intended to be part of *IM3* until Feige pushed for it after shooting had already begun....the original villain of IM3 was intended to be The Ghost, but then it was rewritten to be Killian and AIM. The "Mandarin Twist" wasn't added until late in the game to "appease" fanboy demands (more than a tad ironic, considering fanboy reaction to that twist).
Short answer: Yes. The Mandarin has been built up and foreshadowed more than any other character in the MCU so far (Thanos will take his place in a few years). On top of the obvious Easter eggs/references/setups within the narrative itself, the Mandarin has been on the "to do" list over at Marvel since the very start of the MCU. Favreau's original intentions were to have the Mandarin in the first film until Mark Millar advised him to save him for later and to build up to him. Iron Man 2 toned down on the Mandarin buildup a bit due to the time restrictions Favreau had (a large chunk of the film had to be used to set things up for The Avengers) but when asked in an interview what villain he was going to do next in IM3, he said it was going to be the Mandarin. So yes, the Mandarin has been on the table all along since day 1.

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Old 09-07-2013, 09:17 PM   #327
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Default Re: Marvels biggest slap in the face!!!

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The Ten Rings build up being for nothing was very dissapointing too.

Apparently the writer of IM3 said that Killain has nothing to do with them and just used their name and imagery for his deception.

Raises the question why they didn't retaliate?
Because Ten Rings ceased to exist. As I said, the buck stopped with Raza. He *was* their leader. Stane had him killed. The IM2 novelization stated that Iron Man went on to mop up the remnants of the organization in the weeks after the IM1 events.

Ten Rings does *not* exist in IM2 ---- some people try to point out a deleted scene where Favs mentioned that the guy who gave Vanko the documents to get to Monaco and get the pit pass was supposed to wear a big honking ring, and that it was supposed to be implicit that he was part of the Ten Rings organization. That scene never materialized. Instead, Vanko was linked to Justin Hammer, the guy who busted him out of prison to recruit him to make battlesuits. The guy who gave Vanko the papers to get to Monte Carlo can be dismissed as merely a black marketeer or Russian mobster that Vanko paid to get him close to Stark at the race. (Fun fact: it's not hard at all to get a pit pass to a non-sanctioned Legends race at Monaco. LOTS of civvies wander around the pits at even the major GP races, let alone a non-event like the one Tony was in.)

So in IM3, Killian was having trouble with his test subjects 'sploding from time to time. So to cover that up and distract anyone from investigating the problem too closely, he came up with the idea to create a fake "leader" of a "resurgent" Ten Rings, but "Ten Rings 2.0" was nothing more than actors and Killian's Extremis soldiers. Of course, the US military didn't know that, nor did the media, nor did the general public; so they were all ripe for fearmongering and boogeyman-ing, which is exactly what Killian gave them.

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Old 09-07-2013, 09:20 PM   #328
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Default Re: Marvels biggest slap in the face!!!

And Spider-Man fought a giant robot in the novelization of Spider-Man 2.

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Old 09-07-2013, 09:20 PM   #329
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Default Re: Marvels biggest slap in the face!!!

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Because Ten Rings ceased to exist. As I said, the buck stopped with Raza. He *was* their leader. Stane had him killed. The IM2 novelization stated that Iron Man went on to mop up the remnants of the organization in the weeks after the IM1 events.

Ten Rings does *not* exist in IM2 ---- some people try to point out a deleted scene where Favs mentioned that the guy who gave Vanko the documents to get to Monaco and get the pit pass was supposed to wear a big honking ring, and that it was supposed to be implicit that he was part of the Ten Rings organization. That scene never materialized. Instead, Vanko was linked to Justin Hammer, the guy who busted him out of prison to recruit him to make battlesuits. The guy who gave Vanko the papers to get to Monte Carlo can be dismissed as merely a black marketeer or Russian mobster that Vanko paid to get him close to Stark at the race. (Fun fact: it's not hard at all to get a pit pass to a non-sanctioned Legends race at Monaco. LOTS of civvies wander around the pits at even the major GP races, let alone a non-event like the one Tony was in.)

So in IM3, Killian was having trouble with his test subjects 'sploding from time to time. So he came up with the idea to create a fake "leader" of a "resurgent" Ten Rings, but "Ten Rings 2.0" was nothing more than actors and Killian's Extremis soldiers. Of course, the US military didn't know that, nor did the media, nor did the general public; so they were all ripe for fearmongering and boogeyman-ing, which is exactly what Killian gave them.

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Old 09-07-2013, 09:27 PM   #330
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Default Re: Marvels biggest slap in the face!!!

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Originally Posted by cherokeesam View Post
Because Ten Rings ceased to exist. As I said, the buck stopped with Raza. He *was* their leader. Stane had him killed. The IM2 novelization stated that Iron Man went on to mop up the remnants of the organization in the weeks after the IM1 events.

Ten Rings does *not* exist in IM2 ---- some people try to point out a deleted scene where Favs mentioned that the guy who gave Vanko the documents to get to Monaco and get the pit pass was supposed to wear a big honking ring, and that it was supposed to be implicit that he was part of the Ten Rings organization. That scene never materialized. Instead, Vanko was linked to Justin Hammer, the guy who busted him out of prison to recruit him to make battlesuits. The guy who gave Vanko the papers to get to Monte Carlo can be dismissed as merely a black marketeer or Russian mobster that Vanko paid to get him close to Stark at the race. (Fun fact: it's not hard at all to get a pit pass to a non-sanctioned Legends race at Monaco. LOTS of civvies wander around the pits at even the major GP races, let alone a non-event like the one Tony was in.)

So in IM3, Killian was having trouble with his test subjects 'sploding from time to time. So to cover that up and distract anyone from investigating the problem too closely, he came up with the idea to create a fake "leader" of a "resurgent" Ten Rings, but "Ten Rings 2.0" was nothing more than actors and Killian's Extremis soldiers. Of course, the US military didn't know that, nor did the media, nor did the general public; so they were all ripe for fearmongering and boogeyman-ing, which is exactly what Killian gave them.
These are all very good points... and would be totally reasonable if the Ten Rings was not a direct reference to Mandarin - which it was. It was a foreshadowing reference, and no amount of not cashing in on that foreshadowing will make Ten Rings not a reference to the Mandarin.

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Old 09-07-2013, 09:30 PM   #331
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Default Re: Marvels biggest slap in the face!!!

Also, realistically speaking, an organization like Ten Rings doesn't simply go away. Ra's Al Ghul was killed, the League was still there. So it is reasonable that the Ten Rings of IM3 are the same group that we saw in IM1.

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Old 09-07-2013, 10:41 PM   #332
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Default Re: Marvels biggest slap in the face!!!

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These are all very good points... and would be totally reasonable if the Ten Rings was not a direct reference to Mandarin - which it was. It was a foreshadowing reference, and no amount of not cashing in on that foreshadowing will make Ten Rings not a reference to the Mandarin.
Of course it was a reference, and a "setup" for Mandarin.


Just like the Infinity Gauntlet in Odin's Treasury was a reference and setup for Thanos' IG saga....and never materialized.

Just like Curt Connors was a setup for Lizard in 3 Sam Raimi Spider-Man movies....and never materialized (until you got a new director, and reboot).

And the Gem Theater in Harlem in TIH was a setup for Luke Cage...
And the Human Torch at the Stark Expo in CATFA....
And Samuel Sterns was a setup for The Leader....


There's lots of easter eggs in Marvel movies that haven't had payoffs. There was no reason to expect that the Ten Rings easter egg "confirmed" that there would *have* to be a Mandarin out there anywhere. And to date, there is absolutely no hint that there ever *was* a Mandarin outside of Aldrich Killian's schemes.

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Old 09-07-2013, 10:45 PM   #333
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Default Re: Marvels biggest slap in the face!!!

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Of course it was a reference, and a "setup" for Mandarin.


Just like the Infinity Gauntlet in Odin's Treasury was a reference and setup for Thanos' IG saga....and never materialized.

Just like Curt Connors was a setup for Lizard in 3 Sam Raimi Spider-Man movies....and never materialized (until you got a new director, and reboot).

And the Gem Theater in Harlem in TIH was a setup for Luke Cage...
And the Human Torch at the Stark Expo in CATFA....
And Samuel Sterns was a setup for The Leader....


There's lots of easter eggs in Marvel movies that haven't had payoffs. There was no reason to expect that the Ten Rings easter egg "confirmed" that there would *have* to be a Mandarin out there anywhere. And to date, there is absolutely no hint that there ever *was* a Mandarin outside of Aldrich Killian's schemes.
Technically, the IG COULD still be used, we have no idea what Marvel's future plans for Thanos are. Connor's also doesn't count since the franchise was rebooted. Luke Cage could still appear in the future, Marvel is either making or looking into making movies featuring lesser known properties.

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Old 09-07-2013, 10:49 PM   #334
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Default Re: Marvels biggest slap in the face!!!

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Of course it was a reference, and a "setup" for Mandarin.


Just like the Infinity Gauntlet in Odin's Treasury was a reference and setup for Thanos' IG saga....and never materialized.

Just like Curt Connors was a setup for Lizard in 3 Sam Raimi Spider-Man movies....and never materialized (until you got a new director, and reboot).

And the Gem Theater in Harlem in TIH was a setup for Luke Cage...
And the Human Torch at the Stark Expo in CATFA....
And Samuel Sterns was a setup for The Leader....


There's lots of easter eggs in Marvel movies that haven't had payoffs. There was no reason to expect that the Ten Rings easter egg "confirmed" that there would *have* to be a Mandarin out there anywhere. And to date, there is absolutely no hint that there ever *was* a Mandarin outside of Aldrich Killian's schemes.
A supporting character on whom we're given little to no background does not equal a villain set-up. A terrorist organization would be considered set-up for the leader of said organization's eventual appearance. It is a tremendous stretch to assume something in the background-a theater-is a character setup. Since we saw Sterns mutating, yeah, it was a setup for The Leader. There are two things in the MCU, among the films I've seen set in the universe, that haven't had payoffs. I had every reason to expect those payoffs.

Unless you want to chalk it up to sloppy storytelling.

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Old 09-07-2013, 10:52 PM   #335
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Technically, the IG COULD still be used, we have no idea what Marvel's future plans for Thanos are. Connor's also doesn't count since the franchise was rebooted. Luke Cage could still appear in the future, Marvel is either making or looking into making movies featuring lesser known properties.
Sure, they could be used. And I hope and pray they are someday. What I'm saying is that Ten Rings in IM1 was an easter egg, *not* "foreshadowing" or a "promise." It didn't "guarantee" the existence of a Mandarin in a future IM film at all, any more than these other easter eggs "guarantee" that we'll see the payoffs someday.

Mandarin didn't exist until IM3. There is NO reference to him, anywhere, in IM1 or IM2. So there was no foreshadowing, no expectation, no guarantee of a future "showdown" with Mandarin that some people are claiming. As I stated before, Mandarin wasn't even part of IM3's plot until a late addition after filming had already begun. Hell, there's a whole thread on the IM3 boards that was dedicated to *****ing about Mandarin NOT being in IM3, because Feige and Black had absolutely said he WOULDN'T be in the movie.

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Old 09-07-2013, 10:57 PM   #336
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Ten Rings was in IM1. Mandarin heads up Ten Rings. So...

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“Evil is nothing but a word, an objectification where no objectification is necessary. Cast aside this notion of some external agency as the source of inconceivable inhumanity – the sad truth is our possession of an innate proclivity towards indifference, towards deliberate denial of mercy, towards disengaging all that is moral within us. But if that is too dire, let’s call it evil. And paint it with fire and venom.”
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Old 09-07-2013, 11:02 PM   #337
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Default Re: Marvels biggest slap in the face!!!

Including Dr Connors, who is known to become a villain, is setting him up for future use as a villain, they just never got around to it.

Same thing for Osborn in ASM, they were setting up his presence in the continuity, to be used later.

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Old 09-07-2013, 11:07 PM   #338
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Default Re: Marvels biggest slap in the face!!!

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Ten Rings was in IM1. Mandarin heads up Ten Rings. So...
Really? Prior to IM3? Find me *anything* other than fan fiction that said specifically that Mandarin headed up Ten Rings prior to/during IM1 and IM2.

Again: Mandarin is Killian's invention. Tony Stark had never heard of the guy until after the events of The Avengers. Don't you think that Tony Stark would have heard of someone who "headed up Ten Rings?"

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Old 09-07-2013, 11:11 PM   #339
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You know he means Comics

Putting the Ten Rings organisation in the first movie was a reference to Comic Book Mandarins' Ten Alien Rings.

People assumed the organisation therefore had a link to a future adadption of the character.

It was fanservice calling them that and wasn't an obligation to connect them to the Mandarin character, but they did anyway

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Old 09-07-2013, 11:15 PM   #340
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Comics.

These films have to come from somewhere. If Tony wasn't interested in pursuing a war against Ten Rings, why would he be worried about finding out who's running the show? Furthermore, after the blow they took in IM1, it only makes sense that they would keep their operations more low key. You didn't see the League of Shadows engaging in further attacks on Gotham right after Ra's died. There weren't any heavyhanded political themes about terrorist attacks on American soil in the aftermath of the League attack in Begins. Thus, of course Tony wouldn't have learned about Mandarin prior to IM3. He had Stane to deal with, and a company to run.

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“Evil is nothing but a word, an objectification where no objectification is necessary. Cast aside this notion of some external agency as the source of inconceivable inhumanity – the sad truth is our possession of an innate proclivity towards indifference, towards deliberate denial of mercy, towards disengaging all that is moral within us. But if that is too dire, let’s call it evil. And paint it with fire and venom.”
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Old 09-07-2013, 11:22 PM   #341
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Default Re: Marvels biggest slap in the face!!!

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You know he means Comics

Putting the Ten Rings organisation in the first movie was a reference to Comic Book Mandarins' Ten Alien Rings.

People assumed the organisation therefore had a link to a future adadption of the character.

It was fanservice calling them that and wasn't an obligation to connect them to the Mandarin character, but they did anyway
MCU Ten Rings organization =/= 616 ten rings on Mandarin's hands.
Favreau stated outright in the IM1 featurettes that the Ten Rings name was just, as you say, fanservice, and did not refer to any ten rings worn by any representation of Mandarin. Who, again, did not exist until IM3.



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Comics.

These films have to come from somewhere. If Tony wasn't interested in pursuing a war against Ten Rings, why would he be worried about finding out who's running the show?
He *did* pursue a war against Ten Rings, as I stated above. The IM2 novelization stated outright that he mopped up the remnants of the organization in the period between IM1 and IM2. If there was a Mandarin operating, he (and Fury) would have discovered it.

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Old 09-07-2013, 11:22 PM   #342
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I believe that the Ten Rings in IM 1 WAS a reference to the Mandarin, and also setting him up. I believe that Shane Black changed those plans. If Favreau had directed IM 3, we may very well have gotten the Mandarin.

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Old 09-07-2013, 11:25 PM   #343
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MCU Ten Rings organization =/= 616 ten rings on Mandarin's hands.
Favreau stated outright in the IM1 featurettes that the Ten Rings name was just, as you say, fanservice, and did not refer to any ten rings worn by any representation of Mandarin. Who, again, did not exist until IM3.





He *did* pursue a war against Ten Rings, as I stated above. The IM2 novelization stated outright that he mopped up the remnants of the organization in the period between IM1 and IM2. If there was a Mandarin operating, he (and Fury) would have discovered it.
If that is in continuity with the rest of the MCU, it seems like that's something you'd cover in the film. Again, if Mandarin is keeping low key, how would Fury and Stark have found him?

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“Evil is nothing but a word, an objectification where no objectification is necessary. Cast aside this notion of some external agency as the source of inconceivable inhumanity – the sad truth is our possession of an innate proclivity towards indifference, towards deliberate denial of mercy, towards disengaging all that is moral within us. But if that is too dire, let’s call it evil. And paint it with fire and venom.”
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Old 09-07-2013, 11:27 PM   #344
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Didn't Favreau say he wanted to use Mandarin in IM1?

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Old 09-07-2013, 11:44 PM   #345
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If that is in continuity with the rest of the MCU, it seems like that's something you'd cover in the film. Again, if Mandarin is keeping low key, how would Fury and Stark have found him?
Never mind *finding* him; Tony Stark hadn't even *heard* of him until IM3. He says in voice-over that, after the Battle for New York, the Ten Rings (allegedly) re-emerged and this Mandarin character emerged as their leader (allegedly).

Mandarin wasn't "low key" in IM1 and IM2; he *did not exist.* Aldrich Killian invented him. Both the Trevor version, and the Killian version.

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Old 09-07-2013, 11:47 PM   #346
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Emerged doesn't mean said character was never there to begin with. In the context of your example, I could say Talia emerged in Act 3 of TDKR. She was there the whole time; Bruce just wasn't aware of her existence until then. You were the one who asked me why Fury or Stark wouldn't have discovered the Mandarin.

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“Evil is nothing but a word, an objectification where no objectification is necessary. Cast aside this notion of some external agency as the source of inconceivable inhumanity – the sad truth is our possession of an innate proclivity towards indifference, towards deliberate denial of mercy, towards disengaging all that is moral within us. But if that is too dire, let’s call it evil. And paint it with fire and venom.”
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Old 09-08-2013, 12:03 AM   #347
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Emerged doesn't mean said character was never there to begin with. In the context of your example, I could say Talia emerged in Act 3 of TDKR. She was there the whole time; Bruce just wasn't aware of her existence until then. You were the one who asked me why Fury or Stark wouldn't have discovered the Mandarin.
You keep valiantly trying to use the TDK films as an analogy to this, when there *is* no analogy. The TDKR subterfuge and misdirection is about a villain who is very real (at least in the context of a fictional universe). Bane lies to protect Talia from being revealed; but Talia is a very real and dangerous villain. In IM3, Killian lies to protect his business and himself; but the Mandarin is just a fictional character.

There was never a Mandarin. IM3 makes that clear. IM1 makes absolutely no reference to a Mandarin, nor anyone higher up the food chain in Ten Rings than Raza. IM2 foregoes the whole Ten Rings subplot altogether, and the novelization indicates that they're already destroyed. The "Ten Rings" that appears in IM3 is an entirely fictional one, headed up by a fictional leader invented by Killian.

Therefore, there was never any "continuity" for Ten Rings from IM1 to IM3. Ten Rings in IM1 was real; Ten Rings in IM3 was fictional. IM1 did nothing to "foreshadow" an arrival of this fictitious Mandarin several years later. It was nothing but a ruse.

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Old 09-08-2013, 12:15 AM   #348
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Default Re: Marvels biggest slap in the face!!!

The TDK Trilogy, aside from the two Hellboy films, are the only comic films I really know. There's nothing in the Hellboy series that works for our debate, hence I fall back on TDKT. Killian said that he was the Mandarin. So there was a Mandarin. Simply, a badly written Mandarin, but a Mandarin none the less. Dangerous enough, though. That's why I was disappointed with the shoddy characterization. I saw so much potential in Killian.

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“Evil is nothing but a word, an objectification where no objectification is necessary. Cast aside this notion of some external agency as the source of inconceivable inhumanity – the sad truth is our possession of an innate proclivity towards indifference, towards deliberate denial of mercy, towards disengaging all that is moral within us. But if that is too dire, let’s call it evil. And paint it with fire and venom.”
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Old 09-08-2013, 12:43 AM   #349
Kirk Langstrom
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Default Re: Marvels biggest slap in the face!!!

Avengers founders Hank & Jan Pym not in the Avengers movies....

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Old 09-08-2013, 11:45 AM   #350
SilentWarriorZ
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Default Re: Marvels biggest slap in the face!!!

I wonder why SW and QS were considered more relevant Instead of Hank & Jan Pym


Last edited by SilentWarriorZ; 09-08-2013 at 12:14 PM.
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