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Old 09-08-2013, 11:13 AM   #351
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Default Re: Marvels biggest slap in the face!!!

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Originally Posted by droidwarrior View Post
Didn't Favreau say he wanted to use Mandarin in IM1?
Yes. Mandarin was the Villain in a very early Draft of IM1.

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Choosing a villain was difficult, because Favreau felt Iron Man's archnemesis, the Mandarin, would not feel realistic, especially after Mark Millar gave his opinion on the script.[48] He felt only in a sequel, with an altered tone, would the fantasy of the Mandarin's rings be appropriate.[52] The decision to push him into the background is comparable to Sauron in The Lord of the Rings,[50] or Palpatine in Star Wars.[52] Favreau also wanted Iron Man to face a giant enemy. The switch from Mandarin to Obadiah Stane was done after Bridges was cast.[27] Stane had originally been intended to become a villain in the sequel.[48] The Crimson Dynamo was also a villain in early drafts in the script.
Source: Wikipedia

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Old 09-08-2013, 02:26 PM   #352
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Default Re: Marvels biggest slap in the face!!!

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Avengers founders Hank & Jan Pym not in the Avengers movies....
Or Hank Pym not creating Ultron...

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Old 09-08-2013, 02:31 PM   #353
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Default Re: Marvels biggest slap in the face!!!

BW and Hawkeye made much more sense for the first movie. One, they're SHIELD's two best agents, and since SHIELD was a big part of forming TA, it made sense for them to be on the team. Two, they were already introduced in previous films. Three, they add diversity to the team since they are just two "badass normal" to balance out the super soldier, superpowered beings, and Tony's advanced tech. Having two other superpowered characters would be boring, diversity is good. Four, they were easier to do than Ant Man and Wasp from a budget/effects perspective. And finally, this is the MCU, you don't need to do things exactly like the comics, in fact you SHOULDN'T.

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Old 09-08-2013, 07:37 PM   #354
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Default Re: Marvels biggest slap in the face!!!

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I wonder why SW and QS were considered more relevant Instead of Hank & Jan Pym
I can't speak for anybody else, but I would much rather have Wanda & Pietro.

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Old 09-08-2013, 07:49 PM   #355
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Default Re: Marvels biggest slap in the face!!!

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I can't speak for anybody else, but I would much rather have Wanda & Pietro.
same here. Their backgrounds and powers are a lot more exciting, and i'm not sure the Avengers need yet another genius scientist on the roster with Stark and Banner still on board

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Old 09-08-2013, 08:11 PM   #356
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Default Re: Marvels biggest slap in the face!!!

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same here. Their backgrounds and powers are a lot more exciting, and i'm not sure the Avengers need yet another genius scientist on the roster with Stark and Banner still on board
I also think super speed and hex power are alot more interesting than shrinking/enlarging abilities. I like Janet Pym but lukewarm over her hubby, and even though they were one of the founding fathers of Avengers I don't think it means the movie have to follow the comics, but they should make the decision that is best for MCU.

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Old 09-08-2013, 08:19 PM   #357
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Default Re: Marvels biggest slap in the face!!!

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I can't speak for anybody else, but I would much rather have Wanda & Pietro.

I love Wanda & Pietro and Jan & Hank about equally, but for the Age of Ultron I would prefer the Pyms over the Maximoffs. Whedon's plans are great and I'm fine with it, but there is no denying that Ultron should be Hank's baby. That isn't Joss's fault, though. Edgar Wright is to blame.

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Old 09-08-2013, 10:15 PM   #358
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Default Re: Marvels biggest slap in the face!!!

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same here. Their backgrounds and powers are a lot more exciting, and i'm not sure the Avengers need yet another genius scientist on the roster with Stark and Banner still on board
But "genius scientist" isn't a generic term; the MCU would work just fine with one genius scientist who specializes in technology and engineering (Stark), one (or two) who specialize in astronomy/astrophysics (Selvig and Foster), one who specializes in physics (Banner), and one who specializes in biology/biochemistry (Pym). Add to that the fact that all of them have radically differing personalities, and I don't think anybody in the audience would have any trouble telling them apart.

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Old 09-08-2013, 10:38 PM   #359
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Default Re: Marvels biggest slap in the face!!!

Wasp is a bit more debatable, but Hank Pym is without a doubt the most important Avengers member after the Big Three (Cap, Iron Man, Thor). He's been with the team since the very beginning, has been on the team throughout most of its comic run, has built most of their gadgets, is connected to Ultron, has a very interesting dynamic with the rest of the team due to his pacifist views (at least in the older comics), is connected to Ultron, is one of the most committed Avengers even though you would expect him not to be, etc.

Along with the Mandarin twist, the treatment Marvel Studios gave to Hank Pym is by far their biggest slap in the face. My biggest complaint with The Avengers was the lack of Hank Pym. It would be like having a Justice League film without Flash or GL being there. However, I was willing to give it a pass because the film was good and dismissed it as them not having the time and the ways to properly introduce him yet. As time passes, we not only find out that Hank Pym won't show up until way after the Avengers are formed, but that he will also have no connection to Ultron.

In conclusion, not only have they downplayed the importance of Hank Pym to the Avengers but also completely robbed him of his most interesting character arcs. Him being the creator of Ultron was a major part of who he was. It was why he always tried his best to help the Avengers in any way possible, why his marriage with Janet failed, and the list goes on.

By the time they bring in Hank (which is confirmed to be in Ant-Man), he will be a pale version of the real Hank with only a small smidge of his importance to the team and of his interesting aspects from the comics being there. What Marvel did to Hank Pym would be the equivalent of WB not having Flash and GL as major characters in their Justice League films and rob them of everything that makes them interesting. Heck, what Marvel did is even worse than that. If that were to happen to Flash/GL, they would at least still shine in their own solo films. As a character, Hank Pym is all about the Avengers. The team is incomplete without him and he is incomplete without the team.

I love what Marvel did so far with their universe for the most part, but there is no excuse for their treatment towards Hank Pym. It is essentially the same treatment that Fox gave to Cyclops. But of course nobody wants to admit this because Marvel Studios is just so perfect and can do no wrong. The idea of Marvel actually butchering a character that badly cannot possibly occur in this dimension, at least according to some of you.

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Old 09-08-2013, 10:53 PM   #360
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Default Re: Marvels biggest slap in the face!!!

I'm still amazed that we are even getting an Ant Man film. Don't think it's fair to say he will be a pale comparison before we even know what they are planning on doing with the character. We are getting a full film focused on him, that's pretty awesome. While I can definitely see the complaints with Ultron, his role in Avengers 3 may be significant, we really have no idea yet. They have definitely been developing him for awhile and never dropped Wright so he's still a priority over alot of the other possible Marvel franchises.


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Old 09-08-2013, 10:55 PM   #361
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Default Re: Marvels biggest slap in the face!!!

Isn't that movie going to be Scott Lang and not Hank Pym?

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Old 09-08-2013, 10:58 PM   #362
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Default Re: Marvels biggest slap in the face!!!

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Isn't that movie going to be Scott Lang and not Hank Pym?
They changed the script to better fit the MCU last I heard. Pym's def in it. Could be wrong, but I don't think theres been any confirmation of Lang with the current draft.

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Old 09-08-2013, 11:05 PM   #363
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Default Re: Marvels biggest slap in the face!!!

How about signing interminable deals with Sony and Fox? That was a slap in the face.

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Old 09-08-2013, 11:20 PM   #364
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Default Re: Marvels biggest slap in the face!!!

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Of course it was a reference, and a "setup" for Mandarin.

Just like the Infinity Gauntlet in Odin's Treasury was a reference and setup for Thanos' IG saga....and never materialized.

Just like Curt Connors was a setup for Lizard in 3 Sam Raimi Spider-Man movies....and never materialized (until you got a new director, and reboot).

And the Gem Theater in Harlem in TIH was a setup for Luke Cage...
And the Human Torch at the Stark Expo in CATFA....
And Samuel Sterns was a setup for The Leader....
Those are all really bad analogies. So because they don't happen immediately it means they're not setups? Do you know how many characters showed up in comics years before becoming major characters? For example, Bart Hamilton appeared literally at least a full year before taking up the Green Goblin mantle.

The Infinity Gauntlet setup will materialize when Thanos battles the Avengers in Phase 3 or 4. It is currently being set up.

The Gem Theater and The Leader are on hold until Luke Cage comes to the big screen and Hulk gets his own films again (respectively).

The only reason Connors didn't become the Lizard is because production on the last Spider-Man franchise fell through and the franchise was rebooted. Even then, Connors didn't have half the role and involvement in the entire trilogy that the Ten Rings just had in IM1. Certain ideas from Spider-Man 4, i.e. the Lizard, carried over to the reboot.

Your only valid analogy is of the Human Torch in CA:TFA. Though even then, you're comparing a two-second cameo to the involvement of the Ten Rings in IM1.

Favreau originally planned to use the Mandarin in the first film until Mark Millar advised him to foreshadow/setup the Mandarin in the first film and to introduce him later. He was originally going to be the main villain in the first film and be the head of the Ten Rings. He was going to foreshadow the Mandarin further in Iron Man 2, but he didn't get the chance to do so due to the time spent on setting up Avengers. When asked what villain he was going to do next, he said it would finally be the Mandarin. The Mandarin - Kingsley's Mandarin, that is, or something very similar to him - has been planned and foreshadowed from the very beginning according to Favreau. After Favreau walked away from IM3, there was a small period in which Feige wasn't sure whether or not to proceed with Favreau's Mandarin idea. He eventually decided to do so, until Shane Black came along and came up with the twist. That's the whole story in a nutshell. The Mandarin has been foreshadowed and planned since day one until Black came along and changed things up.


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Old 09-08-2013, 11:36 PM   #365
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Default Re: Marvels biggest slap in the face!!!

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I'm still amazed that we are even getting an Ant Man film. Don't think it's fair to say he will be a pale comparison before we even know what they are planning on doing with the character. We are getting a full film focused on him, that's pretty awesome. While I can definitely see the complaints with Ultron, his role in Avengers 3 may be significant, we really have no idea yet. They have definitely been developing him for awhile and never dropped Wright so he's still a priority over alot of the other possible Marvel franchises.
The main reason Ant-Man is getting done is because Wright expressed interest in doing the film for years. Plus, Scott Lang will be the main character and is the Ant-Man that Lang is the most interested in. It's been recently confirmed that Hank will be in the film, but that doesn't mean he'll be the main character. Chances are he will be a mentor to Lang.

I think it's beyond fair to say Hank will be a pale version of who he has the potential to be. Appearing so late into the game and being robbed of his greatest character arc from the comics via the lack of Ultron are not minor changes that should just be ignored. It would be the equivalent of having Flash join the JL much longer than when the JL formed with the team already having more members than just the founding ones plus to then strip him of most of the stuff that makes him interesting and of the stuff that makes him fit so well in the team.

If anything, Pym being announced to appear in Wright's Ant-Man only made things worse. Up until recently, the argument everyone presented me with regarding Marvel's treatment towards him was "Your rant on the necessity of Hank Pym to the team and to Ultron is based on the assumption that Marvel has any plans for him in the movies to begin with." Well, now we know Marvel has plans for him thus that argument is now rendered futile.

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Old 09-08-2013, 11:50 PM   #366
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Agree to disagree. If Flash didn't show up right away in JL but had his own movie coming out, I really wouldn't have a problem with it as long as the character is done justice in his solo and will appear later in JL. I don't want them throwing in characters just cause. JL would benefit more with Flash then Avengers would with Pym imo. They should definitely be included but I think those teams can still operate fine without Pym or Flash . The Ultorn thing bums me out, but it's not a deal breaker for me. I was more then satisfied with the way Avengers was done and the roster. Janet, Hank and The Twins are def the ones I'm looking forward to see being added the most.

Even in FC where they only had one member from the original team and probably the weakest roster I've seen still didn't bother me in the end because of how well it was done. I'd prefer to see these things perfect in synch like the books with rosters but they could still be a well made film in the end. I'm dieing to see Cyc added and a FC2. They can still be respectful even though they show up a bit later then the books while retaining what works.....hopefully.

I'm really just excited we are getting a full movie to Ant Man. If they do downplay Pym's role in Ant Man then I'll be pretty disappointed and probably a bit angry, but as of right now I have no idea what they are doing so it's really tough for me to judge it. The MCU will be here for awhile and is still just getting warmed up, so time will tell. I don't really see this being late in the game when we still have yet to see Ms Marvel, Black Panther etc. It's still early.


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Old 09-09-2013, 01:03 AM   #367
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Default Re: Marvels biggest slap in the face!!!

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Originally Posted by Shikamaru View Post
Favreau originally planned to use the Mandarin in the first film until Mark Millar advised him to foreshadow/setup the Mandarin in the first film and to introduce him later. He was originally going to be the main villain in the first film and be the head of the Ten Rings. He was going to foreshadow the Mandarin further in Iron Man 2, but he didn't get the chance to do so due to the time spent on setting up Avengers. When asked what villain he was going to do next, he said it would finally be the Mandarin. The Mandarin - Kingsley's Mandarin, that is, or something very similar to him - has been planned and foreshadowed from the very beginning according to Favreau. After Favreau walked away from IM3, there was a small period in which Feige wasn't sure whether or not to proceed with Favreau's Mandarin idea. He eventually decided to do so, until Shane Black came along and came up with the twist. That's the whole story in a nutshell. The Mandarin has been foreshadowed and planned since day one until Black came along and changed things up.
Well there we go, Marvel's biggest slap in the face was bringing in Shane Black.

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Old 09-09-2013, 07:23 AM   #368
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Default Re: Marvels biggest slap in the face!!!

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Those are all really bad analogies. So because they don't happen immediately it means they're not setups? Do you know how many characters showed up in comics years before becoming major characters? For example, Bart Hamilton appeared literally at least a full year before taking up the Green Goblin mantle.

The Infinity Gauntlet setup will materialize when Thanos battles the Avengers in Phase 3 or 4. It is currently being set up.

The Gem Theater and The Leader are on hold until Luke Cage comes to the big screen and Hulk gets his own films again (respectively).

The only reason Connors didn't become the Lizard is because production on the last Spider-Man franchise fell through and the franchise was rebooted. Even then, Connors didn't have half the role and involvement in the entire trilogy that the Ten Rings just had in IM1. Certain ideas from Spider-Man 4, i.e. the Lizard, carried over to the reboot.

Your only valid analogy is of the Human Torch in CA:TFA. Though even then, you're comparing a two-second cameo to the involvement of the Ten Rings in IM1.

Favreau originally planned to use the Mandarin in the first film until Mark Millar advised him to foreshadow/setup the Mandarin in the first film and to introduce him later. He was originally going to be the main villain in the first film and be the head of the Ten Rings. He was going to foreshadow the Mandarin further in Iron Man 2, but he didn't get the chance to do so due to the time spent on setting up Avengers. When asked what villain he was going to do next, he said it would finally be the Mandarin. The Mandarin - Kingsley's Mandarin, that is, or something very similar to him - has been planned and foreshadowed from the very beginning according to Favreau. After Favreau walked away from IM3, there was a small period in which Feige wasn't sure whether or not to proceed with Favreau's Mandarin idea. He eventually decided to do so, until Shane Black came along and came up with the twist. That's the whole story in a nutshell. The Mandarin has been foreshadowed and planned since day one until Black came along and changed things up.
So, a bunch of failures to launch, ideas that never went past the concept stage, and brainstorms that got crumpled up and tossed into File 13 constitute "foreshadowing and setups" now? Okay. None of that BTS stuff ever made it to the actual movies, so no one in the audience can reasonably say that it was being "promised" to them.

By your reasoning, I can take any number of scrapped IM movie ideas and say they were "promised" to us and were "foreshadowed," including failed plans to use Crimson Dynamo and Ghost.

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Old 09-09-2013, 02:04 PM   #369
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Old 09-11-2013, 12:52 PM   #370
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How about signing interminable deals with Sony and Fox? That was a slap in the face.
Freakin best one YET!!!!!

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Old 09-11-2013, 01:23 PM   #371
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How about signing interminable deals with Sony and Fox? That was a slap in the face.
lol

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Old 09-11-2013, 02:18 PM   #372
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How about signing interminable deals with Sony and Fox? That was a slap in the face.
Nah, gave us some of the best Marvel movies and led to the Marvel CBM genre becoming what it is today

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Old 09-11-2013, 03:00 PM   #373
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Default Re: Marvels biggest slap in the face!!!

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So, a bunch of failures to launch, ideas that never went past the concept stage, and brainstorms that got crumpled up and tossed into File 13 constitute "foreshadowing and setups" now? Okay. None of that BTS stuff ever made it to the actual movies, so no one in the audience can reasonably say that it was being "promised" to them.

By your reasoning, I can take any number of scrapped IM movie ideas and say they were "promised" to us and were "foreshadowed," including failed plans to use Crimson Dynamo and Ghost.
Except that none of those things were failures to launch or were scrapped. Huge difference between being scrapped and being put on hold. And the ones that could be described as "scrapped" are really just easter eggs instead of foreshadowing (i.e. the Luke Cage easter egg, Human Torch in Cap, etc.).

The Mandarin was by no means an idea that was scrapped over even put on hold. It was only put on hold in IM1 because Favreau wanted to lead up to the Mandarin instead of having him already be the main villain in the first film. It was really Favreau walking away from the project and Black coming in with the twist in mind that put an end to the Mandarin (at least to the Mandarin it was leading up to).

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How about signing interminable deals with Sony and Fox? That was a slap in the face.
It was between that and going bankrupt.

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Well there we go, Marvel's biggest slap in the face was bringing in Shane Black.
It could be. I cited the Mandarin twist and their treatment of Hank Pym as Marvel's biggest slaps in the face so far. We all know his involvement in the Mandarin twist, but there is a rumor going around that the reason Ultron might be Tony's creation instead of Hank's is because they need a reason to get Tony back into the suit since he quit at the end of IM3. If that is true, Shane Black is responsible for both Marvel's treatment to the Mandarin and to Hank Pym.


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Old 09-11-2013, 03:38 PM   #374
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Default Re: Marvels biggest slap in the face!!!

Where is all this information on the Mandarin buildup coming from? Because everything I've ever heard from Favreau the past few years is that he didn't want to do the Mandarin at all, because he thought the character delved too far into the mystical for the tone of the films he was making and that he only included the Ten Rings references as a nod to the fans.

Can we get some sources on this, because I'd love to read them if Favreau has said otherwise more recently.

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Old 09-11-2013, 04:06 PM   #375
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Actually, i only rememer him saying they pushed Mandarin from the first film to the background to surfasse in a future film in a role similar to the emperor:

http://www.mania.com/iron-man-favrea...7.html#ad_jump

http://www.aintitcool.com/node/33483

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