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Old 02-18-2014, 01:56 AM   #1
DrCosmic
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Default Hulk is Not a Hero, Banner is.



So, I've found out recently, that some people are under the impression that Banner has "control" of Hulk, and that Hulk is something other than a Giant Green Rage Monster (TM!).

For some reason, they think Hulk is the one that changed in Avengers and not simply Banner's relationship with the Hulk.

They think this for two reasons, mainly.
1) They see Banner willingly transform into Hulk. They then assume this means he can transform back whenever he wants or that he can make Hulk do whatever he wants, even though we've seen this is not true.
2) Because Hulk didn't attack any innocents in the final battle like he usually does. They attribute this to Banner's "control" or Hulk's "heroism."

There are a few reasons that doesn't work.

A) Hulk does attack innocents. Thor is his teammate, and totally innocent. Hulk socks him one in what is clearly retaliation for earlier events. Retaliation is a function of anger. So while he doesn't go off on Thor, he shows that Banner is not in control.

B) This is no the first time Hulk did not attack people Banner cares about. Betty Ross has had this effect for years. It's not surprising that Tony Stark who bonds with Banner can also get saved. Hulk has not grown since TIH or AngHulk, he simply treats Stark with the same care he does Betty (and the other Avengers with slightly less car.)

C) Hulk attacks everything that attacks him, like he always does. This is not him being more heroic than usual. He is simply doing what he always does. The only difference is that Banner has purposefully put Hulk here to be attacked by an evil army. This is not what Banner always does. Banner has grown. Hulk has not.

D) A very key indicator of who Hulk is is found in his exchange with Cap. Cap simply says Hulk's name. Hulk turns, tense, ready to fight Cap. Again, this is not someone who Cap can treat badly and survive. Cap being too smart to rely on Hulk to now be some heroic entity tells Hulk to do what Hulk does and Hulk does it, happily. Cap and Banner use Hulk as a weapon. Hulk does not become a hero.

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Originally Posted by CoherentChaos View Post
To me, Hulk is not just rage. He has great capacity for rage, but like a developing child, he has capacity to show other emotions and even do a bit of reasoning. If Hulk was only rage, he wouldn't have "Betty's" in the first place, and wouldn't have saved Tony.

And he wouldn't have put in effort to divert the collision course of the leviathan heading towards the building full of people. Sure he could have just landed on its head and bashed its skull in, but instead he pulled it away.

The only reason we see him primarily angry is because the majority of his situations are of him being in perceivable danger. Civilians running away shouldn't make him think danger though, otherwise he would have turned his attention away from the leviathan and instead throw around those poor civilians who barely got out of his way. The whole helicarrier situation was one of hostility that was topped off with an explosion, ie sudden immense pain. And the only one in his sights after that was one of the agents he remembered as an aggressor. So he chased Nat, and cornered her. But you know what? He hesitated once he realized she wasn't a threat after all. He wouldn't have hit her even if Thor didn't intervene.

Now is he a liability? Sure. Even if he has the best intentions, "puny humans good", "big robot bad", his actions are naturally big, and thus will have big consequences. Civilians may die in the Johannesburg as a result of his actions, but it's not like he'll be actively trying to kill them. Even if they throw fruit at him. Fruit is not a threat. The gunfire from the local military yes, but there is nothing the civilians can do to him to make him purposefully try to hurt them. So if that scene isn't him fighting something, if Whedon for some reason decides to pull a complete 180 and have Hulk go on indiscriminate rampages, I might feel obliged to walk out of the theater.
I would agree that Hulk is not just rage, but his a creature of rage. Rage is what makes him appear, and when the rage is gone he disappears. It is his primary motivation. I agree its not his only motivation. Banner's love for people shines through because, after all, they're the same person.

His ability to have Betty's doesn't mean that he doesn't react like a monster though. Thor was not a threat, Captain America was not a threat, but he reacted to them like threats. Heck, Loki's army wasn't a threat to Hulk. Hulk would have been just fine, but he attacked as many as he could anyway. Hulk is a rage monster, he's not analyzing threats, he's reacting in anger. If you say hi, he's ready to fight you. Heaven help you if you insult him.

Hulk on an indiscriminate rampage would not be a 180 from Avengers at all. Whedon did not show Hulk analyzing threats. You make Hulk mad he fights you. This is a constant over 50 years. Why would it change with AoU?

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Originally Posted by Mjölnir View Post
I wrote that part so I wouldn't get criticism of Cap's order as a response. My point was that since you said that Hulk would smash someone for doing anything remotely negative I used Cap giving him an order as an example as some take offense to people telling them what to do. Hulk clearly didn't and instead clearly accepted Cap as an ally.

Hulk didn't do it out of anger. He fought Thor at the Helicarrier out of anger, that's what anger looks like. This was a punch (on someone he knew could easily take a punch from him) and a little grunt, which is more a "just don't think you're better than me" thing, or something along those lines, which also fits with what Whedon has said about it.

He attacked them under the influence of Loki and the scepter. So did Hawkeye. The only difference is the amount of influence, as Hulk requires less. There's not exactly many that can replicate that feat on him so in future events he's more likely to behave like in the NY battle.

Yes, Banner is not in full control of the Hulk. Hulk is not Banner, he just shares some memories and thoughts. He seems to share much more in The Avengers than before though.

He's not Hulking out because he's not quite there yet but the anger is gradually building up. He's the most mild-mannered of the Avengers but yet he's the one starting to become the angriest, so he's pushed closer and closer to the limit where he can lose control. Then the explosion comes and he's pushed over the line. Of course you can hurt Banner to the point where Hulk comes out, the suicide part is testament to that, but it's not like you slap him over the head and he goes wild. Whedon wanted to explain why Hulk was dangerous on the Helicarrier but not later through showing Loki's influence, so everyone could tell the difference and not just think he only acts according to plot needs. The entire arc for Banner in TA is to make Hulk go from a monster to a hero.
The reason Cap's order wasn't remotely negative is because Hulk didn't consider it remotely negative. Just because I don't like cheese doesn't mean Pizza will make Bruce Banner Hulk out. The only thing Hulk considered potentially negative was Cap saying "... and Hulk," That's how easy it is to get a green fist. Everyone who makes Hulk mad in Avengers gets it. That's the character.

Anger doesn't always require roaring. Some people will ignore you out of anger. However you slice it, Hulk hit Thor because Thor did something he didn't like. That's what Hulk does, he attacks people who do things he doesn't like. Now we can say, he didn't try to kill Thor because Thor is one of his Bettys now, but the fact that Hulk attacks people who make him angry is a constant that Avengers never does away with, thank goodness.

Hulk does not seem to share more with Banner in Avengers. I'm not sure what that could be based on.

I think your story about the staff and what Whedon wanted to show is just a story. Banner held the staff and expressed anger at his teammates without Hulking out. It took the explosion to push him over the edge, but the explosion would have pushed him over the edge without the staff, so... yeah. Whedon showed Hulk *was* dangerous later by having him almost snap on Cap and only attack people who attacked him.

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Originally Posted by xeno000 View Post
This.

I don't even know why this is up for debate. To believe otherwise one would have to ignore everything that happened with Hulk in The Avengers.
What in Avengers has been ignored? Hulk attacking people who attack him? Hulk lashing out at his teammates for no good reason? Hulk saving Stark like he always saves Betty? I don't know why you guys can't just accept that Hulk is a monster. A loveable, awesome, dangerous monster. He's not a hero. But Bruce Banner, that guy who has the courage to turn into a dangerous monster to save the world... now THAT guy, that's a hero.



So in AoU, expect Hulk to continue to attack everyone who attacks him or makes him mad in some other way, and Banner to be even more incredible in how he heroically uses this dangerous deadly unheroic monster.

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Last edited by DrCosmic; 02-18-2014 at 02:06 AM.
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Old 02-18-2014, 11:59 AM   #2
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Default Re: Hulk is Not a Hero, Banner is.

That is completely the opposite of the Hulk in the comics. While there has always been the Jekyll/Hyde thing going on, the Hulk has always been a Hero. Lee and Kirby based Hulk, not just off Jekyll and Hyde, but off Frankenstein, where Lee said he chose to base it off that, because everyone thought he was the monster, but he was really the hero.

When people say Hulk doesn't attack innocents, they mean civilians. His rage is focused against people who attack him and/or Banner. Yeah he hits Thor in retaliation, but people understood why, and it was one hit, he doesn't continue to attack him. Plus Whedon knows better than anyone of Hulk and Thor's rivalry, which was always well established in the comics.

No I don't think Banner "controls" the Hulk, but it's more a sense of he gives into his rage. Everyone has those moments when there are people that you just would love to beat the crap out of, but you restrain yourself, because you don't want to get arrested for assault. Banner gives into those feelings which is what he means by "I'm always angry".

In Ang's Hulk there was much more of a sense of the mindless beast, where in the MS films, Hulk's rage is always focused. It wasn't on the Helicarrier, because he was being manipulated by Loki and the staff.

While I agree with some things on here I totally disagree that Hulk is heroic. The whole point of Tony's conversation with Banner is that he needed to learn in some way to control what he had.

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Old 02-18-2014, 01:13 PM   #3
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Default Re: Hulk is Not a Hero, Banner is.

I agree that Hulk's rage is focused against people who attack him or Banner and make him or Banner mad... but I don't think that magically goes away when they're civilians. If that's what the original comics were like, then color me informed. Is that what you're telling me? Because in TIH, some civilians got it pretty bad in the factory. Maybe one of them had attacked him?

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Old 02-18-2014, 01:16 PM   #4
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Default Re: Hulk is Not a Hero, Banner is.

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Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
That is completely the opposite of the Hulk in the comics. While there has always been the Jekyll/Hyde thing going on, the Hulk has always been a Hero. Lee and Kirby based Hulk, not just off Jekyll and Hyde, but off Frankenstein, where Lee said he chose to base it off that, because everyone thought he was the monster, but he was really the hero.

When people say Hulk doesn't attack innocents, they mean civilians. His rage is focused against people who attack him and/or Banner. Yeah he hits Thor in retaliation, but people understood why, and it was one hit, he doesn't continue to attack him. Plus Whedon knows better than anyone of Hulk and Thor's rivalry, which was always well established in the comics.

No I don't think Banner "controls" the Hulk, but it's more a sense of he gives into his rage. Everyone has those moments when there are people that you just would love to beat the crap out of, but you restrain yourself, because you don't want to get arrested for assault. Banner gives into those feelings which is what he means by "I'm always angry".

In Ang's Hulk there was much more of a sense of the mindless beast, where in the MS films, Hulk's rage is always focused. It wasn't on the Helicarrier, because he was being manipulated by Loki and the staff.

While I agree with some things on here I totally disagree that Hulk is heroic. The whole point of Tony's conversation with Banner is that he needed to learn in some way to control what he had.
So you don't think hulk is heroic?

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Old 02-18-2014, 01:18 PM   #5
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Default Re: Hulk is Not a Hero, Banner is.

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Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
I agree that Hulk's rage is focused against people who attack him or Banner and make him or Banner mad... but I don't think that magically goes away when they're civilians. If that's what the original comics were like, then color me informed. Is that what you're telling me? Because in TIH, some civilians got it pretty bad in the factory. Maybe one of them had attacked him?
I don't remember any innocents being hurt in that scene, everyone he attacked was previously chasing him.

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Old 02-18-2014, 02:01 PM   #6
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Default Re: Hulk is Not a Hero, Banner is.

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Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
I agree that Hulk's rage is focused against people who attack him or Banner and make him or Banner mad... but I don't think that magically goes away when they're civilians. If that's what the original comics were like, then color me informed. Is that what you're telling me? Because in TIH, some civilians got it pretty bad in the factory. Maybe one of them had attacked him?
Like Tony Stark said, I think you're confusing "innocents" with "civilians." Hulk, as a hero, does not target *innocents,* period. He targets anyone who's trying to kill him, or trying to kill someone he's trying to protect. I'm sure there's plenty of soldiers and cops and SHIELD agents who've faced the un-jolly green giant's wrath who would say they're "innocent" guys just doing their job, but Hulk doesn't see it that way. It's self-defense and survival, pure and simple.

Do innocent civilians accidentally get killed during a Hulk rampage? No doubt. That's collateral damage. But if you start picking on Hulk for that, you might as well pick on Superman, and Iron Man, and pretty much every superhero that's ever lived. For that matter, collateral damage isn't a problem that's limited to the superhero genre, but to every action film ever. James Bond and Indiana Jones and the A-Team probably killed more innocent bystanders than Hulk ever did in his "career."

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Old 02-18-2014, 03:10 PM   #7
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So you don't think hulk is heroic?
sorry typo, he is heroic, I disagree that with the thought he is NOT heroic.

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Old 02-18-2014, 03:45 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
I agree that Hulk's rage is focused against people who attack him or Banner and make him or Banner mad... but I don't think that magically goes away when they're civilians. If that's what the original comics were like, then color me informed. Is that what you're telling me? Because in TIH, some civilians got it pretty bad in the factory. Maybe one of them had attacked him?
Yes the guys who attacked him in the pop factory got hurt, and possibly were killed/died from their injuries, I don't deny that. The civilians in the factory were trying to gang rape that girl, and Banner stepped in, then they started attacking him and then he went off. Add to the fact that Ross' men and Blonsky were also there. In his rage and confusion the Hulk perhaps couldn't tell the difference between the factory workers and Blonsky/Ross' men.

What I am saying is that the Hulk has always protected innocent people in the comics.

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Old 02-18-2014, 05:20 PM   #9
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Default Re: Hulk is Not a Hero, Banner is.

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Originally Posted by Gamma Goliath View Post
I don't remember any innocents being hurt in that scene, everyone he attacked was previously chasing him.
I guess threatening Hulk as those factory workers did makes one not innocent and gets you killed.

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Originally Posted by cherokeesam View Post
Like Tony Stark said, I think you're confusing "innocents" with "civilians." Hulk, as a hero, does not target *innocents,* period. He targets anyone who's trying to kill him, or trying to kill someone he's trying to protect. I'm sure there's plenty of soldiers and cops and SHIELD agents who've faced the un-jolly green giant's wrath who would say they're "innocent" guys just doing their job, but Hulk doesn't see it that way. It's self-defense and survival, pure and simple.

Do innocent civilians accidentally get killed during a Hulk rampage? No doubt. That's collateral damage. But if you start picking on Hulk for that, you might as well pick on Superman, and Iron Man, and pretty much every superhero that's ever lived. For that matter, collateral damage isn't a problem that's limited to the superhero genre, but to every action film ever. James Bond and Indiana Jones and the A-Team probably killed more innocent bystanders than Hulk ever did in his "career."
I'm not confusing anything. Someone said Hulk doesn't attack civillians, I pointed out where he does. We can do the same for innocents. And what is this 'picking on' Hulk madness? Making honest observations is not an attack.

The reason it's not survival for Hulk is because Hulk's life is never in danger. Hulk is motivated by rage, pure and simple, not fear for his life.

Law enforcement is a great example of people who are indeed innocent, who actually are trying to protect their people from a dangerous monster, and they get Hulk's wrath.

So Hulk attacks civilians, and he attacks innocents. Does he attack innocent civilians? Well, innocent civilians have never upset the Hulk, as far as I've seen in the films, but since he attacks civilians who upset him and innocents who upset him, I see no reason why he would all of a sudden stop at innocent civilians. Maybe someone can enlighten me how that would be any different?

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Yes the guys who attacked him in the pop factory got hurt, and possibly were killed/died from their injuries, I don't deny that. The civilians in the factory were trying to gang rape that girl, and Banner stepped in, then they started attacking him and then he went off. Add to the fact that Ross' men and Blonsky were also there. In his rage and confusion the Hulk perhaps couldn't tell the difference between the factory workers and Blonsky/Ross' men.

What I am saying is that the Hulk has always protected innocent people in the comics.
The men weren't trying to rape the girl when Banner Hulked out in the factory, she was back at her apartment. And it's not that Hulk couldn't tell the difference... he never tried to because he didn't care. Why would he? He's mad, everyone in the area gets direct attacks, because he's attacking something, and if you are the only available target, then it's you. Even the two sidekick bullies who hadn't actually done or said a doggone thing.

Now in the comics, if Hulk has been doing something different than in the MCU in the past, hey, what can I say, the MCU isn't a faithful adaptation then.

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Old 02-18-2014, 06:09 PM   #10
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Default Re: Hulk is Not a Hero, Banner is.

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Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post


So, I've found out recently, that some people are under the impression that Banner has "control" of Hulk, and that Hulk is something other than a Giant Green Rage Monster (TM!).

For some reason, they think Hulk is the one that changed in Avengers and not simply Banner's relationship with the Hulk.

They think this for two reasons, mainly.
1) They see Banner willingly transform into Hulk. They then assume this means he can transform back whenever he wants or that he can make Hulk do whatever he wants, even though we've seen this is not true.
2) Because Hulk didn't attack any innocents in the final battle like he usually does. They attribute this to Banner's "control" or Hulk's "heroism."

There are a few reasons that doesn't work.

A) Hulk does attack innocents. Thor is his teammate, and totally innocent. Hulk socks him one in what is clearly retaliation for earlier events. Retaliation is a function of anger. So while he doesn't go off on Thor, he shows that Banner is not in control.

B) This is no the first time Hulk did not attack people Banner cares about. Betty Ross has had this effect for years. It's not surprising that Tony Stark who bonds with Banner can also get saved. Hulk has not grown since TIH or AngHulk, he simply treats Stark with the same care he does Betty (and the other Avengers with slightly less car.)

C) Hulk attacks everything that attacks him, like he always does. This is not him being more heroic than usual. He is simply doing what he always does. The only difference is that Banner has purposefully put Hulk here to be attacked by an evil army. This is not what Banner always does. Banner has grown. Hulk has not.

D) A very key indicator of who Hulk is is found in his exchange with Cap. Cap simply says Hulk's name. Hulk turns, tense, ready to fight Cap. Again, this is not someone who Cap can treat badly and survive. Cap being too smart to rely on Hulk to now be some heroic entity tells Hulk to do what Hulk does and Hulk does it, happily. Cap and Banner use Hulk as a weapon. Hulk does not become a hero.
The Hulk in the Helicarrier is a rage monster in the sense that he's entirely controlled by his rage. The Hulk in NYC is angry but still a hero who's actions are affected by doing what's good (saving people, attacking the bad guys). Hulk becoming a hero is the point of Banner's arc, as stated by Whedon.

A. Attacking Thor is not like attacking an innocent human since Thor had already taken Hulk's best punch and smiled. Hulk punching Thor is more an action of friendly rivalry.

B. There's always been some crossover between Banner and Hulk but that's to a much larger degree now. Before it was Banner's longtime love interest that caused Hulk to care, now he works together with people Banner doesn't even have that much of a relationship with (yet). Banner has hardly met Thor, and Hulk has fought him, yet he cooperates with Thor to take down a leviathan and a bunch of soldiers. That's completely inconceivable for the Hulk in TIH.

C. If Hulk hasn't grown, how can he actively cooperate with other people in a fight? Him ripping off that metal chunk and lodging it in the leviathan so Thor can kill it is operating at a very different thought level than before.

D. In what way is being a weapon and a hero mutually exclusive? Thor is also only used as a weapon in that fight. Thor and Hulk are the two most powerful so they are put on destroying things. Hulk isn't particularly bright so you can't really give him any complicated orders but he's certainly a hero.

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The reason Cap's order wasn't remotely negative is because Hulk didn't consider it remotely negative. Just because I don't like cheese doesn't mean Pizza will make Bruce Banner Hulk out. The only thing Hulk considered potentially negative was Cap saying "... and Hulk," That's how easy it is to get a green fist. Everyone who makes Hulk mad in Avengers gets it. That's the character.

Anger doesn't always require roaring. Some people will ignore you out of anger. However you slice it, Hulk hit Thor because Thor did something he didn't like. That's what Hulk does, he attacks people who do things he doesn't like. Now we can say, he didn't try to kill Thor because Thor is one of his Bettys now, but the fact that Hulk attacks people who make him angry is a constant that Avengers never does away with, thank goodness.

Hulk does not seem to share more with Banner in Avengers. I'm not sure what that could be based on.

I think your story about the staff and what Whedon wanted to show is just a story. Banner held the staff and expressed anger at his teammates without Hulking out. It took the explosion to push him over the edge, but the explosion would have pushed him over the edge without the staff, so... yeah. Whedon showed Hulk *was* dangerous later by having him almost snap on Cap and only attack people who attacked him.
Hulk responds to an order, which is a completely different way to react for him. Him smiling is also new and that's a perfect evidence that he's not just rage anymore.

Hulk has never been anger that leads to ignoring things, he's been rage that destroys things or runs away from them.

As for Thor being a Betty, and not sharing anything more with Banner, that makes no sense. Banner has barely met Thor and certainly does not know him. A good part of the conversations we've seen with the two in the same room were also pretty heated, due to Loki's influence. Banner knows that these are the ones that can save Earth though, so Hulk also gets that now since there's more crossover thoughts. That's why he cooperates with the guy he previously tried to kill.

One pretty clear point with the staff is that Hulk actively tries to kill Avengers, despite them not having done anything threatening to him. Even in TIH he doesn't attack people like that despite being the uncontrolled rage monster, he attacks people that tried to hurt him or Banner.

Just because he's a hero now doesn't turn him into Captain America. He's still a loose cannon with rage and limited intellectual capacity but a hero nonetheless.

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Old 02-18-2014, 06:14 PM   #11
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Default Re: Hulk is Not a Hero, Banner is.

I think the definition of attacking innocents is what has caused this whole discussion. I don't think people are talking about Hulk punching out Thor or any other superhero, or Hulk reacting to gunfire from an army, or accidentally injuring innocents as he tries to help (which can still be heroic if a little stupid & reckless). What I don't want to see is Hulk instigating attacks against civilians who have no connection to whatever event is taking place and are just minding their own business. If he does that he needs to give himself up to be locked away somewhere secure (can have lots of fun things to do there though ); it's the only decent thing to do. And he should be let out only when there is a world crisis and the risk of him hurting others is not significant next to the threat of world destruction.

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Old 02-18-2014, 07:01 PM   #12
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Default Re: Hulk is Not a Hero, Banner is.

While I am solidly on the "by the end of Avengers, the Hulk was a hero" side. . . no, the Hulk has *not* always been a hero in the comics. The majority of the time he is a tragic villain, who Banner would be very well off to successfully eliminate. The Hulk has threatened to kill, and *actually* killed, innocents before, and *deliberately* rather than by mindless accident. The idea that he is always a misunderstood child provoked by evil people is a fallacy. *Sometimes* he's like that. *Sometimes* he'd a mindless force of destruction. *Sometimes* he's a ruthless selfish thug. *Sometimes* he's a maniacal supervillain who decides to destroy New York City until the people he wants to kill show up ( this one he's done twice! ). The Hulk in the movies is a hero, because the Hulk in the movies is *not* like he is in the comics. He's allowed to be rather more consistent in behavior and characterization.

That said, I do agree that Banner is the real hero. That's because Banner *is* the Hulk. The Hulk is Banner. They are not two separate people, they are one person who happens to turn into a giant green rage monster when he lets go of his anger.

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Old 02-18-2014, 07:13 PM   #13
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Default Re: Hulk is Not a Hero, Banner is.

The guys at the soda factory were kicking the crap out of Banner. They were not exactly innocent. Hulk attacks only those who threaten him. He's a reactionary creature like that. But, if you don't give him reason to attack you, he leaves you alone. Only exception would be collateral damage. I don't agree with this assessment of the Hulk. People think of Hulk as a different person. He is not. Hulk is still Banner. As a person who sometimes has anger issues, I have experienced having little control of yourself when you explode. But, that doesn't mean I was another person. I was still myself. Hulk is the same. He is Banner when his emotions take over. But, one thing consistent in all Hulk comics, TV, etc is that he is heroic. He saves many people from threats to himself or others. Sure, in TIH, Hulk was a bit more feral than in many portrayels, but that was the point of the film: trying to find a way to hold back the beast and accept that part of Banner's personality. Blonsky was corrupted by his monster. Ross let his desire for power and controlling the monster lead to ultimately having no control of his surroundings. Banner was able to channel the beast. It was the whole point of the movie, and by the end of TIH, you feel like Hulk is now that heroic beast of the comics. Avengers only further showcases this. I will agree, Banner is heroic. Which is exactly why HULK is heroic: they're one and the same.

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Old 02-18-2014, 08:06 PM   #14
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Default Re: Hulk is Not a Hero, Banner is.

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The guys at the soda factory were kicking the crap out of Banner. They were not exactly innocent. Hulk attacks only those who threaten him. He's a reactionary creature like that. But, if you don't give him reason to attack you, he leaves you alone. Only exception would be collateral damage. I don't agree with this assessment of the Hulk. People think of Hulk as a different person. He is not. Hulk is still Banner. As a person who sometimes has anger issues, I have experienced having little control of yourself when you explode. But, that doesn't mean I was another person. I was still myself. Hulk is the same. He is Banner when his emotions take over. But, one thing consistent in all Hulk comics, TV, etc is that he is heroic. He saves many people from threats to himself or others. Sure, in TIH, Hulk was a bit more feral than in many portrayels, but that was the point of the film: trying to find a way to hold back the beast and accept that part of Banner's personality. Blonsky was corrupted by his monster. Ross let his desire for power and controlling the monster lead to ultimately having no control of his surroundings. Banner was able to channel the beast. It was the whole point of the movie, and by the end of TIH, you feel like Hulk is now that heroic beast of the comics. Avengers only further showcases this. I will agree, Banner is heroic. Which is exactly why HULK is heroic: they're one and the same.


Yeah, Hulk is still Banner, and Banner is still Hulk. It's not like some monster magically appears in Bruce's place whenever he hulks out. That's still Bruce.

The proof of that, if there needs to be any, comes in the "Professor" facet of Hulk. (Hulk has had many personalities over the decades; and yeah, being an outright villain from time to time). "Professor Hulk" was a facet of Hulk's personality that was explored extensively at different times over the years in the comics. In that facet, Bruce and Hulk were literally one and the same --- Hulk's body, Bruce's brain. Still big green rage Hulk, but he had the full intellectual (and language) capacity of Bruce Banner.

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Old 02-18-2014, 08:31 PM   #15
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Default Re: Hulk is Not a Hero, Banner is.

This place needs a poll lol

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Old 02-18-2014, 08:33 PM   #16
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Default Re: Hulk is Not a Hero, Banner is.

Edit: replying to Cherokee

And to relapse again undoes the work of these films and makes him too unreliable a team member. I mean I don't mind if he relapses once more, but any more than that and he becomes redundant.

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Old 02-19-2014, 12:35 AM   #17
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Default Re: Hulk is Not a Hero, Banner is.

Personally I feel that Marvel need to show HULK as an individual living being that shares a body with Banner, and is not just a personification of Banners anger.

Some of my friends only follow comic book movies and don't know anything about the comics.To them its simple, Banner gets angry and his anger manifest as Hulk, and Banner needs to learn to control his anger to control Hulk. They don't really see Hulk as being with its own conscious, they see a raging green monster with Banners conscious.

I'm sure the GA see Hulk the same way... I say we need to see more of internal battle between Banner and Hulk, with Hulk refusing to turn back to Banner after a battle.

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Old 02-19-2014, 02:17 AM   #18
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Default Re: Hulk is Not a Hero, Banner is.

I just don't understand why people want to give up the whole Banner losing control and hulking out against his wishes aspect of the character.

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Old 02-19-2014, 08:40 AM   #19
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Default Re: Hulk is Not a Hero, Banner is.

He *can* still lose control. It just requires more than "someone pokes me". Like say, "an alien space-god zaps me in the brain".

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Old 02-19-2014, 08:53 AM   #20
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Default Re: Hulk is Not a Hero, Banner is.

Of course Banner can still lose control of the Hulk. Everytime he has Hulked out in the MCU movies, he always targetted the source of Banner's anger. On the Helicarrier, that was Black Widow (and Thor once Thor started fighting him...notice, he didn't attack random SHIELD agents that didn't fire at him with a helicopter). In the Chitari invasion, it was the Chitari that was the source of his anger, and he had just befriended the others. Even that jab he takes at Thor I felt was more of a friendly love tap amongst rivals than it was malicious.

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Old 02-19-2014, 08:57 AM   #21
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Default Re: Hulk is Not a Hero, Banner is.

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I just don't understand why people want to give up the whole Banner losing control and hulking out against his wishes aspect of the character.
Because that's his ultimate goal in the comics. And he's attained that goal from time to time, only to revert.

In the movies, the evolution of Bruce has been seen as a positive one. TIH is kinda coming in at the end of the "uncontrollable" cycle....by movie's end, he's able to control the Hulk. In the Avengers, the control is even more visible, with an "on-off" switch that Bruce can use more or less at will (witness the "I'm always angry" line, and instant unprovoked Hulk-out: that's sheer willpower right there). Loki-magic is the only thing that supersedes Bruce's willpower in The Avengers.

So MCU audiences see this as a positive progression. Hulk has gone from green rage monster to a bona fide hero and savior of the world. And it's clear that they want to see more of the latter instead of the former. So, as Iceman said, reverting back to rage-Hulk would definitely be regarded as a step back in Bruce's overall story arc.

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Old 02-20-2014, 01:24 PM   #22
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Default Re: Hulk is Not a Hero, Banner is.

You guys discuss a storm. Anyways, some people just seem to analyze too much on how Banner was suddenly able to control his rage. This annoys me. As that honest trailer narrator put it, "but who cares, because that shot was awesome!"

It was a turning point in Bruce Banner's life. He's always been angry, due to years of stress with the beast within him, after years and years of trying to find a cure, usually failing to calm down, and as a result, it has caused more destruction and trouble around him....I can certainly get angry. I understand Banner.

Banner decided to let all his rage out in that scene to protect the Earth. It was an opportunity for him to get angry for his own freewill for once.

I don't think this means Banner will still be able to control his anger, if someone makes him angry, I'm sure he won't be able to help himself but destroy whoever it is that's making him angry, and Hulk-out. Hope we see that in the sequel.

Once Banner is Hulk, Banner has no control. He made a choice to get angry and become Hulk.

Banner cannot force his Hulk-self to shrink back into Banner. That's stupid.

What is logical though is that anyone can force themself to get angry. Which is how Banner was able to turn into Hulk by willingly agreeing with himself to get angry.

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Old 02-20-2014, 04:54 PM   #23
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Default Re: Hulk is Not a Hero, Banner is.

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Originally Posted by Gu3ree View Post
You guys discuss a storm. Anyways, some people just seem to analyze too much on how Banner was suddenly able to control his rage. This annoys me. As that honest trailer narrator put it, "but who cares, because that shot was awesome!"

It was a turning point in Bruce Banner's life. He's always been angry, due to years of stress with the beast within him, after years and years of trying to find a cure, usually failing to calm down, and as a result, it has caused more destruction and trouble around him....I can certainly get angry. I understand Banner.

Banner decided to let all his rage out in that scene to protect the Earth. It was an opportunity for him to get angry for his own freewill for once.

I don't think this means Banner will still be able to control his anger, if someone makes him angry, I'm sure he won't be able to help himself but destroy whoever it is that's making him angry, and Hulk-out. Hope we see that in the sequel.

Once Banner is Hulk, Banner has no control. He made a choice to get angry and become Hulk.

Banner cannot force his Hulk-self to shrink back into Banner. That's stupid.

What is logical though is that anyone can force themself to get angry. Which is how Banner was able to turn into Hulk by willingly agreeing with himself to get angry.
There was nothing sudden about him being able to control the transformation. It's hinted at when TIH ends, which was the second movie in the MCU so it's been expected for quite a long time. When he turns back into Banner is a different issue and we haven't gotten any info on that either way, so no one can say how that works.

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Old 02-20-2014, 05:07 PM   #24
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Default Re: Hulk is Not a Hero, Banner is.

he's like a pitbull.

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Old 02-20-2014, 07:09 PM   #25
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Default Re: Hulk is Not a Hero, Banner is.

In that if you treat him like crap, he'll sink his teeth into you? But just because he's capable of being vicious, doesn't necessarily mean he's just going to go around the neighborhood snatching babies and devouring them? Actually I think that's a great analogy. Pitbulls are largely misunderstood. Hulk is misunderstood. They are misunderstood monsters, very in line with Frankenstein, whom Stan Lee took lots of inspiration from. Frankenstein wouldn't have harmed anyone at all if only people weren't so easily startled and quick to throw pitchforks. Barring the original incident, which injured Betty, the most notable incidents only happened because someone was starting **** with Bruce, or because Bruce needed to save the day.

Anyways, I've agreed with Dr Cosmic on various other topics surrounding the Hulk, and that at the end of the day, Bruce is the true hero, but I just cannot get behind this notion that Hulk is completely without reason and would attack you if you said hi. Especially since if there's anything TIH established, is that Bruce has learned to at least guide the Hulk. He's far from perfect control, and in fact should never have anything close to that unless they go the Professor Hulk route. But as Hulk develops further (and he will, especially as he gets more positive social interactions), Hulk despite being primarily motivated by anger, should be able to form opinions and yes, analyze threats. Sure the Chitauri can't harm him much, but something in Hulk's head told him they needed to be engaged in combat, even if only because it would help his teammates and also, he was capable of analyzing that the Leviathan was a threat to civilians. Of whom he rushed to protect. I do not recall any retaliation to my repeat upbringings of that scene, which I think says volumes about Hulk as he appears in the Avengers. Did this scene fade from memory? Is it no longer valid?

Failing that, I'm under the impression that Bruce can at least give him clear targets, making everything else either secondary, or to be ignored completely. Like Ross and his military at the end of TIH. Instead of trying to just scare them off, let alone throw cars at them, Hulk ran, and he even ran in a way that would minimize further damage and threat to civilians (hence the parkour as opposed to super jumps that hold unforeseeable consequences). Influence from Bruce or not, that's indisputable proof that MCU Hulk is capable of decisions, namely choosing flight over fight for once.


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