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Old 09-07-2013, 04:39 AM   #1
Batmannerism
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Default Win, Lose or Draw ! If BM vs SM involves a smackdown, who comes out on top ?

Hi People,

time to address the elephant in the room.

Traditionally, one of the key plot devices in super-hero comics is that when two super-heroes meet for the first time, they try and kick the crap out of each other - you know, mistaken identity or conflicting agendas ("You can have him...when I'm done with him!") or whatever.

Apparently BM vs SM is going to draw from Miller's DKR, which I think
is a flawed premise.
Here's why: the final fight in DKR is about a philosophical difference that's been brewing for decades, that's what makes it work. You feel Batman's righteous fury at Superman's betrayal of their principles. He's pissed and
as much as we all love Supes, he kind of has it coming (also, it's very clear during the fight that Supes is holding back, a lot).

As such, it's not really appropriate material for a first meeting between the characters.

However, if it does influence the film, then we should expect the Dark Knight and the Man of Steel to engage in fisticuffs.



my opinion, a draw of sorts. Batman clearly out-thinks Clark, but has to
rely on a ****load of gadgets and tricky tactics just to keep Clark at bay.

And the winner is.....the audience. Well let's hope so.

Time for your opinions people. Throw down! Who should win, who will win, will it be a draw, who do you want to win, and most importantly, WHY ?

Peace.

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Old 09-07-2013, 04:49 AM   #2
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Default Re: Win, Lose or Draw ! If BM vs SM involves a smackdown, who comes out on top ?

I have no problem with the idea that Batman could pose a danger to Superman through incredible planning and tactics that take into account the totality of Clark's powers/skills ect. It's just that almost all of the times the creative minds in charge have taken the "conflict" route between the two across media they don't come up with anything that I find remotely satisfying. I know it can often come down to Bruce knowing what Clark's character is like. Even then, Superman's powers are so versatile I just don't think Batman really has a chance. If he is made to win in a given story the reasoning must be more than "He's Batman."

They often present a fight between the two as coming down to fisticuffs. Really? I don't believe that Bruce would even chance being 1,000 miles of Superman if he had some plan to take him out.

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Old 09-07-2013, 05:32 AM   #3
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Default Re: Win, Lose or Draw ! If BM vs SM involves a smackdown, who comes out on top ?

I think it would be amazing to see and know Batman is a mere human who has what it takes to take on Superman. He confronts him and there is something of a "battle" but in the end I'd rather they give this one to Superman.

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Old 09-07-2013, 06:50 AM   #4
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Default Re: Win, Lose or Draw ! If BM vs SM involves a smackdown, who comes out on top ?

Who SHOULD win: Superman.

Who WILL win: Batman.

Optimal outcome: Draw.

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Old 09-07-2013, 08:13 AM   #5
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Default Re: Win, Lose or Draw ! If BM vs SM involves a smackdown, who comes out on top ?

Goyer likes to do the opposite of what fans think he will do. He will have Superman smack Batman up, down, and around.

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Old 09-07-2013, 09:43 AM   #6
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Default Re: Win, Lose or Draw ! If BM vs SM involves a smackdown, who comes out on top ?

I think they should both get the best of each other at different points in the fight but in the end its a draw, everyone leaves happy.

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Old 09-07-2013, 10:01 AM   #7
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Default Re: Win, Lose or Draw ! If BM vs SM involves a smackdown, who comes out on top ?

both.

Perhaps Superman clearly has the opportunity to kill Batman. Perhaps he lifts him by the throat, and the eyes light up for a moment before making them go back to normal, showing Batman that he only kills if he needs to. Thus Superman wins.

However, eventually Bruce is able to peel off Clark's fingers from his throat, to Clark's surprise. And Batman is able to engage him in an actual fist fight. Clark gets progressively weaker and eventually Bruce subdues Clark, revealing a mysterious green rock. Thus Batman wins too.


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Old 09-07-2013, 10:52 AM   #8
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Default Re: Win, Lose or Draw ! If BM vs SM involves a smackdown, who comes out on top ?

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Originally Posted by FeedOnATreeFrog View Post
both.

Perhaps Superman clearly has the opportunity to kill Batman. Perhaps he lifts him by the throat, and the eyes light up for a moment before making them go back to normal, showing Batman that he only kills if he needs to. Thus Superman wins.

However, eventually Bruce is able to peel off Clark's fingers from his throat, to Clark's surprise. And Batman is able to engage him in an actual fist fight. Clark gets progressively weaker and eventually Bruce subdues Clark, revealing a mysterious green rock. Thus Batman wins too.
I like the idea of Superman having Batman by the throat and possibly about to kill him but instead of Batman uses kryptonite he uses words "Go ahead and finish me off like you did Zod" something to that effect which causes Superman to regain control and let go of him. That would be a cool way for the fight to end actually.

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Old 09-07-2013, 10:56 AM   #9
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Default Re: Win, Lose or Draw ! If BM vs SM involves a smackdown, who comes out on top ?

Have Lois beat up both of them.

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Old 09-07-2013, 11:10 AM   #10
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Default Re: Win, Lose or Draw ! If BM vs SM involves a smackdown, who comes out on top ?

Traditionally, Batman is shown as being the winner in philosophical debates and being smart enough to somehow beat Superman. So I would prefer to see Superman come out on top of one of those.

The only time I really can recall Batman ever really, really losing to Superman is in Torment, where Superman (under control of Desaad and Darkseid) fatally wounds Batman.

One punch gave Bruce a broken sternum, shattered ribs and a punctured lung. If Bekka hadn't shown up to save him, he would have died.

I wonder if the way they will go this time around is to not use kryptonite, but to lure Superman into a building that changes the atmosphere to depower Clark. If Batman makes Superman more human, I think that he would be able to win more easily.

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Old 09-07-2013, 11:34 AM   #11
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Snyder wants Miller's advice, does he not?

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Old 09-07-2013, 12:58 PM   #12
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All of this sounds great but in addition to the battle of ideals which no doubt should be in the forefront they should go a more human and unconventional route that would suite them meeting early in their careers. Have some tension between Bruce Wayne and Clark develop early when they meet in Gotham via Clark and Lois covering Wayne and Lex's press conference announcing the rebuilding of Metropolis. Bruce will have already started studying the alien during man of steel with his advanced equipment and figured out his identity and doesn't trust him fully so he devises a plan to be sure. Bruce's plan is simple. Piss Clark off just as another human being would piss of another to see if he can't control his emotions and would cross the line and run the risk of becoming violent and turning against humans. Clark would view him as this arrogant wealthy playboy type who only cares about himself and his name while Bruce will deliberately strike his buttons by acting as if Clark is beneath him because he's a farm boy and a nobody in the world of wealth as well as insulting him outright with every chance and indirectly throwing jabs at his superman persona. Clark would dislike him already but the icing on the cake would be Bruce hitting on Lois in front of Clark and threatening to take away the only thing besides his parents that he holds most dear and makes him feel as if he actually fits in on earth. Although Lois won't leave Clark, Bruce's charm would have Lois flirting with him which would increasingly irritate Clark to the point of him and Lois having minor arguments and Clark feeling a little detached and fearing she would leave him. So now everything points to the a**hole Wayne and all that needs to happen now is Bruce getting Lois to visit him in Gotham somehow via news story etc. (also sending Clark a message that Lois is his now and he should go back to his farm etc.) where he's already developed a plan to weaken Clark (somehow) if he gets in real trouble. Clark finally has enough and plans to just fly to Gotham as Superman and rough up this a**hole Wayne but under the disguise of accusing him of being the out of hand vigilante Batman whose methods he finds to be highly illegal etc. (his way of getting even). This is where things get interesting when he confronts Bruce and starts to push him around with great satisfaction until Bruce having already begun his process to weaken Superman smacks him and to his surprise he actually felt the hit. Superman then asks him how he managed to make him feel the hit but Bruce suddenly throws a small bomb at him (enough to stun and put him down for a little while). This is where Bruce suits up quickly and Batman emerges (first costume reveal) and surprises Clark and tells him that he was actually right in his accusation of him being Batman and seeing now that they are enemies he will have to kill him and proceeds to pound Superman who he believes is as weak as a human (Bruce was secretly in Gotham before and studied him and monitored the effects of the weakener on Clark without him even knowing). Of course Batman won't kill him but now we discover Superman is holding back and is indeed not as weak as a human for that can only happen in kryptonian atmosphere. He then suddenly turns the tables on Batman who underestimated his strength and tells him that the human in him wants to destroy him but he won't because he believes in blah blah etc. Batman then calls him Clark and tells him it was all just a test. What Batman doesn't tell Superman is that he didn't use enough kryptonite to actually make him human but now he knows he can be trusted. Batman dupes Superman, Superman dupes Batman and they both dupe the audience. Win, win and win.


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Old 09-07-2013, 01:10 PM   #13
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Default Re: Win, Lose or Draw ! If BM vs SM involves a smackdown, who comes out on top ?

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AngryJoe says it best here.

As for my opinion, Superman needs to win, mainly just because the notion of Batman being some sort of Chuck Norris figure needs to go, and those Batman fanboys(especially the "too young, too dumb Batman fans" as said by AngryJoe in the video from 1:15-1:39 and 4:05-4:10) seriously need a lesson taught to them. It would make my day to see them walk out of the theater early in rage after seeing Batman lose.

I don't think the confrontation in the movie would play out too much like TDKReturns. The essential element to what made that fight really work is the fact that both players knew each other for years and their conflict of views led to this. In that fight, Batman knew it was coming for years, and prepped for it using the "fortune and time" he had. The Batman in the movie only learned about Superman yesterday. Plus Superman isn't a US government stooge, I mean doesn't anybody remember this?


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Old 09-07-2013, 01:17 PM   #14
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Default Re: Win, Lose or Draw ! If BM vs SM involves a smackdown, who comes out on top ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Batmannerism View Post
Hi People,

time to address the elephant in the room.

Traditionally, one of the key plot devices in super-hero comics is that when two super-heroes meet for the first time, they try and kick the crap out of each other - you know, mistaken identity or conflicting agendas ("You can have him...when I'm done with him!") or whatever.

Apparently BM vs SM is going to draw from Miller's DKR, which I think
is a flawed premise.
Here's why: the final fight in DKR is about a philosophical difference that's been brewing for decades, that's what makes it work. You feel Batman's righteous fury at Superman's betrayal of their principles. He's pissed and
as much as we all love Supes, he kind of has it coming (also, it's very clear during the fight that Supes is holding back, a lot).

As such, it's not really appropriate material for a first meeting between the characters.

However, if it does influence the film, then we should expect the Dark Knight and the Man of Steel to engage in fisticuffs.



my opinion, a draw of sorts. Batman clearly out-thinks Clark, but has to
rely on a ****load of gadgets and tricky tactics just to keep Clark at bay.

And the winner is.....the audience. Well let's hope so.

Time for your opinions people. Throw down! Who should win, who will win, will it be a draw, who do you want to win, and most importantly, WHY ?

Peace.
Didn't Snyder say that the quote was used to reference the character, more than the story arc? I also heard he was consulting Millar, but not sure if this is confirmed or rumour.

Personally, if Bruce is a few years into being bats, taking down crime in gotham etc and then an alien threat shows, he will want to know more, protect the nation etc, i mean, come on, he is the sherlock holmes of our day, this is the perfect mystery.

The only way Bats will take him down is to crush him mentally, know his secrets, his flaws, then, with a piece of kryptonite, use the element of suprise.

A good script writer is needed for this

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Old 09-07-2013, 01:17 PM   #15
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Default Re: Win, Lose or Draw ! If BM vs SM involves a smackdown, who comes out on top ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Senator Pleasury View Post


Snyder wants Miller's advice, does he not?
Just because he wants Miller's advice, doesn't mean that he's going to actually implement it to his project. The Superman fan in him would probably rage at Miller for suggesting such a thing.

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Old 09-07-2013, 01:25 PM   #16
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I think Snyder meeting with Miller was debunked in the end.

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Old 09-07-2013, 04:56 PM   #17
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Have Lois beat up both of them.
I'd buy that from Amy's Lois. Then she dusts them off and they head to a bar to pound some scotch back and hit the karoke bars where the 3 of them sing THAT'S WHAT FRIENDS ARE FOR and bring down the house!

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Old 09-07-2013, 07:01 PM   #18
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Default Re: Win, Lose or Draw ! If BM vs SM involves a smackdown, who comes out on top ?

Is it too much to ask to see Batman breaking a sweat hurting his hands and feet on Superman's face while Superman just sits there and kinda smiles at him? I like Batman I really do but it just seems like everyone writes the guy like he could kick the crap out of everyone in the JLU. Ok the man is a martial arts master, I got that. He is a genius and thinks quickly on his feet, but in a world where Kryptonite hasn't yet been discovered he could be the best human the world has to offer and still get his tail end kicked from metropolis to gotham without Superman even breaking a sweat. I honestly hope they don't even have a fisticuffs.

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Old 09-07-2013, 07:42 PM   #19
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Quote:
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Is it too much to ask to see Batman breaking a sweat hurting his hands and feet on Superman's face while Superman just sits there and kinda smiles at him? I like Batman I really do but it just seems like everyone writes the guy like he could kick the crap out of everyone in the JLU. Ok the man is a martial arts master, I got that. He is a genius and thinks quickly on his feet, but in a world where Kryptonite hasn't yet been discovered he could be the best human the world has to offer and still get his tail end kicked from metropolis to gotham without Superman even breaking a sweat. I honestly hope they don't even have a fisticuffs.
Out of the question. Someone who can outsmart the most intelligent villain can't go and just punch a man of steel, let alone repeatedly.

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Old 09-07-2013, 07:48 PM   #20
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Out of the question. Someone who can outsmart the most intelligent villain can't go and just punch a man of steel, let alone repeatedly.
Your probably right. Who needs the JL when you can just have Batman. Doomsday just came to earth.

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Old 09-08-2013, 04:54 AM   #21
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Default Re: Win, Lose or Draw ! If BM vs SM involves a smackdown, who comes out on top ?

Loving the vibe people ! Great posts ! Can see all of these playing out to great effect onscreen, hope Goyer's out there having a read.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.? View Post
I like the idea of Superman having Batman by the throat and possibly about to kill him but instead of Batman uses kryptonite he uses words "Go ahead and finish me off like you did Zod" something to that effect which causes Superman to regain control and let go of him. That would be a cool way for the fight to end actually.

Nice ! Supes has been beaten by reason, remember the end of Mark
Millar's Red Son ? Good to remember that the source of Supes' greatest
strength is his humanity, but it's also his greatest vulnerability (after
kryptonite, and spunky investigative journalists).


Quote:
Originally Posted by smallville fan View Post

AngryJoe says it best here.

As for my opinion, Superman needs to win, mainly just because the notion of Batman being some sort of Chuck Norris figure needs to go, and those Batman fanboys(especially the "too young, too dumb Batman fans" as said by AngryJoe in the video from 1:15-1:39 and 4:05-4:10) seriously need a lesson taught to them. It would make my day to see them walk out of the theater early in rage after seeing Batman lose.

I don't think the confrontation in the movie would play out too much like TDKReturns. The essential element to what made that fight really work is the fact that both players knew each other for years and their conflict of views led to this. In that fight, Batman knew it was coming for years, and prepped for it using the "fortune and time" he had. The Batman in the movie only learned about Superman yesterday. Plus Superman isn't a US government stooge, I mean doesn't anybody remember this?

With you dude, the confrontation can't play out like TDKR because the characters haven't had that time to get to know each other, and have years of philosophical differences that lead to the fight, which Bats won, but died in the process. The inference we can draw is that if he hadn't
faked his death, he really would have died. Given how much Clark is holding back, which is obvious from his statements, he (and thus Miller as well) knows that without the kryptonite Bats doesn't have a prayer.

However, Chuck Norris is a different story. He could take on Batman, and Superman and then pick his teeth with the rest of the JLA. LOL ! Chuck Norris sweats kryptonite !

Having said that, for the film, I predict a draw, of sorts. However, I don't have a problem with Batman beating Supes, as long as it's done in a
reasonably believable way (well a way that suspends all my other disbelief)
Which means that Bats would need a tremendous amount of planning, the home field advantage and a way to neutralize Supes' powers (take any one of those away and really he doesn't stand a chance) Mark Millar covered this well in Red Son (with Red sun radiation projectors).
Anyway, this means that 99% of the time Supes should win, but it is possible for Bats to take him down, but only given the factors I've listed
(at least take him down temporarily, Bats doesn't kill, usually).
As someone said, it's nice to think that Bats could win, because after
all he's just a mere mortal (just a good-looking ultra-talented ninja, genius, billionaire mortal).

How it will play out in the film ? Looking forward to spoilers and leaked shots from the set, so I'll have to wait a while.
Although based on his characterization from MOS, I can't see Clark starting anything, so Bats would have to throw the first punch, and
I'm not sure that Batfleck's up for that. Battle of wits maybe ?

Anyway, keep the posts coming. Strong opinions are what make these
characters so much fun to yak about !

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Old 09-08-2013, 05:19 AM   #22
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Default Re: Win, Lose or Draw ! If BM vs SM involves a smackdown, who comes out on top ?

Yo people !

Here's a quick variation on the theme.

Early in the film, Supes clearly dominates Bats in some
sort of physical confrontation -although Bats manages to elude capture or
at least outsmart Supes in some way, enough to escape in one piece anyway.

Later on, after much excitement and plot twists and turns,
Luthor has Supes on the ropes, probably using kryptonite to make him
vulnerable and is gleefully kicking the crap out of him.
Bats emerges from the shadows ,
and says.
" Nobody beats up big blue, except me !" or words to that effect.
And proceeds to put a fearsome beatdown on Luthor. Audience winces
as Lex spits out some teeth.

So Bats ends up saving Supes' ass, a victory for Batman. Everybody wins.

Just a thought. Peace.

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Old 09-08-2013, 07:53 AM   #23
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Default Re: Win, Lose or Draw ! If BM vs SM involves a smackdown, who comes out on top ?

Superman should/would/will win, of course

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Old 09-08-2013, 05:29 PM   #24
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I dunno I guess I'll find out when everyone else does but I think it's pretty obvious that both guys are gonna be seen getting the one up each other at distinct points in the movie before they eventually come to terms and band together.

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Old 09-08-2013, 06:09 PM   #25
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Default Re: Win, Lose or Draw ! If BM vs SM involves a smackdown, who comes out on top ?

Are they even going to fight though?

The only chance Batman stood against Superman in DKR was inside of a robotic battle suit against a Superman that was severely weakened after nearly dying from a nuclear blast. Even then, Batman was getting worked over until Queen shot Supes with that Kryptonite arrow.

I doubt theyre going to reproduce these conditions in the new team up movie. I mean, does kryptonite even exist in this universe?

More realistically is that theyre not going to fight each other physically at any point. Most likely itll be a battle of wills with both one upping each other until the end where they respect and trust each other.

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