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Old 09-08-2013, 11:21 PM   #26
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Default Re: Win, Lose or Draw ! If BM vs SM involves a smackdown, who comes out on top ?

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Are they even going to fight though?

The only chance Batman stood against Superman in DKR was inside of a robotic battle suit against a Superman that was severely weakened after nearly dying from a nuclear blast. Even then, Batman was getting worked over until Queen shot Supes with that Kryptonite arrow.

I doubt theyre going to reproduce these conditions in the new team up movie. I mean, does kryptonite even exist in this universe?

More realistically is that theyre not going to fight each other physically at any point. Most likely itll be a battle of wills with both one upping each other until the end where they respect and trust each other.
Maybe fight in an unconventional manner? Miller really nerfed and caricatured Superman to make it easy for Batman. Kryptonite was hinted to have exist. I think when the world engine did some minor terraforming Kryptonite was placed into the earth. Let's not forget there are other situations where an aged Superman was exposed to a nuke and was just fine (kingdom come anyone? )

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Old 09-08-2013, 11:25 PM   #27
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Default Re: Win, Lose or Draw ! If BM vs SM involves a smackdown, who comes out on top ?

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Maybe fight in an unconventional manner? Miller really nerfed and caricatured Superman to make it easy for Batman. Kryptonite was hinted to have exist. I think when the world engine did some minor terraforming Kryptonite was placed into the earth. Let's not forget there are other situations where an aged Superman was exposed to a nuke and was just fine (kingdom come anyone? )

I can't believe that this has never occurred to me. A perfect way to have Kryptonite be on Earth, and for that matter also be somewhat plentiful. I am slipping.

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Old 09-08-2013, 11:46 PM   #28
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Default Re: Win, Lose or Draw ! If BM vs SM involves a smackdown, who comes out on top ?

Damn ! I wish I'd set this thread up as a poll !

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Old 09-08-2013, 11:53 PM   #29
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Default Re: Win, Lose or Draw ! If BM vs SM involves a smackdown, who comes out on top ?

Okay ! Now I'm going to restart the thread with a poll

Great posts so far people, looking forward to seeing them
reposted along with other assorted craziness on the subject

Peace.

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Old 09-08-2013, 11:58 PM   #30
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Default Re: Win, Lose or Draw ! If BM vs SM involves a smackdown, who comes out on top ?

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Hi People,

time to address the elephant in the room.

Traditionally, one of the key plot devices in super-hero comics is that when two super-heroes meet for the first time, they try and kick the crap out of each other - you know, mistaken identity or conflicting agendas ("You can have him...when I'm done with him!") or whatever.

Apparently BM vs SM is going to draw from Miller's DKR, which I think
is a flawed premise.
Here's why: the final fight in DKR is about a philosophical difference that's been brewing for decades, that's what makes it work. You feel Batman's righteous fury at Superman's betrayal of their principles. He's pissed and
as much as we all love Supes, he kind of has it coming (also, it's very clear during the fight that Supes is holding back, a lot).

As such, it's not really appropriate material for a first meeting between the characters.

However, if it does influence the film, then we should expect the Dark Knight and the Man of Steel to engage in fisticuffs.



my opinion, a draw of sorts. Batman clearly out-thinks Clark, but has to
rely on a ****load of gadgets and tricky tactics just to keep Clark at bay.

And the winner is.....the audience. Well let's hope so.

Time for your opinions people. Throw down! Who should win, who will win, will it be a draw, who do you want to win, and most importantly, WHY ?

Peace.
Are you familiar with Superman's strength? A human trying to "fight" Superman is a joke. Superman would murder Batman with just a slap to the head. Superman's hand would actually go through Batman's head. The "fight" would be over in less than a second.

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Old 09-09-2013, 12:12 AM   #31
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Default Re: Win, Lose or Draw ! If BM vs SM involves a smackdown, who comes out on top ?

But.... BATMAN!

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Old 09-09-2013, 12:18 AM   #32
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Default Re: Win, Lose or Draw ! If BM vs SM involves a smackdown, who comes out on top ?

Anybody who thinks that WB/DC are going to let their cash cow in Batman look weak, vulnerable, or outright lose in the eyes of millions of moviegoers is going to have their feelings hurt.

Badly.

I guess AngryJoe will be even angrier?

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Old 09-09-2013, 12:28 AM   #33
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I just want Bats to somewhat lose. There will always be those who don't like the idea of Batman do anything with Superman other than bash him around.

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Old 09-09-2013, 12:38 AM   #34
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Default Re: Win, Lose or Draw ! If BM vs SM involves a smackdown, who comes out on top ?

It's going to be written in a way that plays to both of their strengths and makes both of them look strong.

You can't make your top guys look weak.

Clark will use his sheer God-like power, Bruce will use his almost omnipotent intellect. They'll fight to a stalemate more than likely.

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Old 09-09-2013, 12:39 AM   #35
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Default Re: Win, Lose or Draw ! If BM vs SM involves a smackdown, who comes out on top ?

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I just want Bats to somewhat lose. There will always be those who don't like the idea of Batman do anything with Superman other than bash him around.

At this point in the history of the characters the actual unexpected thing to do would to go full on bromance from the giddyup. Screw all the passive aggressive nonsense. Of course that makes for less than stellar drama, I know. SIGH...

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Old 09-09-2013, 12:41 AM   #36
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It's going to be written in a way that plays to both of their strengths and makes both of them look strong.

You can't make your top guys look weak.

Clark will use his sheer God-like power, Bruce will use his almost omnipotent intellect. They'll fight to a stalemate more than likely.
So having Batman EVENTUALLY lose the upper hand of someone who fought six Kryptonians makes himself look weak?

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Old 09-09-2013, 12:42 AM   #37
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I just want Bats to somewhat lose. There will always be those who don't like the idea of Batman do anything with Superman other than bash him around.
I agree, and not just to tick off the young Batman fanboys that place him on a pedestal above everything else. We need to be reminded why Batman is good, is that he could die and is mortal. Too many fanboys make him look OP to Chuck Norris levels and boast that Batman could wipe Galactus out with one punch or my favourite give a flick of his fingers to the Hulk and he turns back into Bruce Banner and faints.

What if something like what happened in Star Trek: Into Darkness occurs here in this movie? In STID, Kirk's the one who "dies" and Spock yells "Khaaaaan!" unlike the original Wrath of Khan. What I'm saying is, what if a role reversal happens here? Batman in TDKReturns gives a speech proving himself to Superman, here Superman could give his own spin of an epic speech proving himself to Batman, telling him he's here to help and "be the symbol of hope Earth needs in all the years to come".

Has anybody discussed the prospect of that?


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Old 09-09-2013, 12:47 AM   #38
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Default Re: Win, Lose or Draw ! If BM vs SM involves a smackdown, who comes out on top ?

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So having Batman EVENTUALLY lose the upper hand of someone who fought six Kryptonians makes himself look weak?
You're missing the point of what I'm saying. You only seem to be concerned with the black and white.

"Superman strong, Superman win, Superman beat puny human man."

Not really that simple.

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Old 09-09-2013, 12:53 AM   #39
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Batman isn't even as smart as Lex.

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Old 09-09-2013, 03:54 AM   #40
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Default Re: Win, Lose or Draw ! If BM vs SM involves a smackdown, who comes out on top ?

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Are you familiar with Superman's strength? A human trying to "fight" Superman is a joke. Superman would murder Batman with just a slap to the head. Superman's hand would actually go through Batman's head. The "fight" would be over in less than a second.
Oh-ho a challenge ! Are you familiar with Kryptonite, red solar energy,
magic or any of Superman's other weaknesses ?
Are you familiar with an elderly Batman kicking Superman's ass, in possibly
the greatest Batman story every (The one and only, Dark knight returns) ?

The thing is, Superman at full power (or even a fraction of his power) is of
course practically invincible to mere mortals, but writers get around all that,

You gotta see the possibilities man, Saying that Superman will automatically squash Bats is like saying an F-22 will squash a seagull - but you take a few bolts out of that F-22 or drain off its fuel, mess with its electronics and all
of a sudden its not invincible anymore.

So what I'm asking is not who should win, because it's always Supes,
what I'm asking is who you think WILL win, in the next movie ?

Peace.

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Old 09-09-2013, 04:00 AM   #41
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Default Re: Win, Lose or Draw ! If BM vs SM involves a smackdown, who comes out on top ?

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I agree, and not just to tick off the young Batman fanboys that place him on a pedestal above everything else. We need to be reminded why Batman is good, is that he could die and is mortal. Too many fanboys make him look OP to Chuck Norris levels and boast that Batman could wipe Galactus out with one punch or my favourite give a flick of his fingers to the Hulk and he turns back into Bruce Banner and faints.

What if something like what happened in Star Trek: Into Darkness occurs here in this movie? In STID, Kirk's the one who "dies" and Spock yells "Khaaaaan!" unlike the original Wrath of Khan. What I'm saying is, what if a role reversal happens here? Batman in TDKReturns gives a speech proving himself to Superman, here Superman could give his own spin of an epic speech proving himself to Batman, telling him he's here to help and "be the symbol of hope Earth needs in all the years to come".

Has anybody discussed the prospect of that?
Interesting ! Just to clarify, how does the fight play out ? Do you mean that Batman is the agressor rather than Supes ? Do you mean that Supes is actually getting his ass kicked, and then at the end rallies and takes down Bats (because that would be a reversal of DKR).

Personally, I still prefer Shatner's "Khaaaaaannnnn!" over Zachary Quinto's, a good effort, but Shatner is the king of OTT.

Anyway, develop your idea, tell us about how the fight plays out, because with a few slight changes you could certainly make a role reversal work.

cheers !

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Old 09-09-2013, 04:02 AM   #42
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Default Re: Win, Lose or Draw ! If BM vs SM involves a smackdown, who comes out on top ?

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Oh-ho a challenge ! Are you familiar with Kryptonite, red solar energy,
magic or any of Superman's other weaknesses ?
Are you familiar with an elderly Batman kicking Superman's ass, in possibly
the greatest Batman story every (The one and only, Dark knight returns) ?

The thing is, Superman at full power (or even a fraction of his power) is of
course practically invincible to mere mortals, but writers get around all that,

You gotta see the possibilities man, Saying that Superman will automatically squash Bats is like saying an F-22 will squash a seagull - but you take a few bolts out of that F-22 or drain off its fuel, mess with its electronics and all
of a sudden its not invincible anymore.

So what I'm asking is not who should win, because it's always Supes,
what I'm asking is who you think WILL win, in the next movie ?

Peace.
Watch this video from start to finish

VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Batmannerism View Post
Interesting ! Just to clarify, how does the fight play out ? Do you mean that Batman is the agressor rather than Supes ? Do you mean that Supes is actually getting his ass kicked, and then at the end rallies and takes down Bats (because that would be a reversal of DKR).

Personally, I still prefer Shatner's "Khaaaaaannnnn!" over Zachary Quinto's, a good effort, but Shatner is the king of OTT.

Anyway, develop your idea, tell us about how the fight plays out, because with a few slight changes you could certainly make a role reversal work.

cheers !
Hmm yeah, something like that. In my mind, it would play out something like this, in TDKReturns, you have Superman who's on the omniscient higher authority antagonist's(US Government's) speed-dial and beck and call while old Batman is the upstart making a name for himself in Gotham and we know how that story goes. In my mind, for the movie it would still have something like that happening, but differently. Superman's the upstart making a name for himself in Metropolis doing the whole "Truth, Justice & The American Way" thing and just being Superman, stopping crime, left right and center and helping workers rebuild Metropolis, and just generally helping people, heck throw in a scene of saving a cat from a tree or helping an old woman cross the street haha. Of course people are somehow warming up to him(for argument's sake let's say the damage to Metropolis wasn't as bad as we thought it was and more people are actually left displaced rather than killed) and the Daily Planet writing glowing reports about Superman. Of course not everyone's happy about the alien, here we introduce Lex Luthor, who takes the place of the US Government as the omniscient higher authority from TDKReturns.

Luthor doesn't like what he sees and feels Superman upstages him at every corner(perhaps show him flipping through the latest issue of the Daily Planet where Superman is pages 1-5 while Luthor's page 10 lol). Luthor flips out and decides to concot his plan to take own the Man of Steel by first framing him for a crime he didn't commit, preferably murder(ala Public Enemies) and of course Superman goes on the run trying to prove his innocence as seen in the comic/animated movie, Lois could help here if she wants. Since no known police can actually take someone like Superman in, Lex uses his connections to a friend in Gotham City(Jim Gordon) who in turn calls in the people's superhero Batman, who supposedly handles an assortment of freaks like this on a daily basis.

The movie becomes pretty much a cat and mouse game between Superman & Batman culminating in a fight in Gotham's Crime Alley ala TDKReturns. So Batman then uses an assortment of different gadgets and traps to stall Superman and then of course releases the Kryptonite(Here Batman would just call it "radioactive meteor rock which simulates your home turf". Batman, being smart could make some analogy to how we are different in other planets like how when Astronauts go to the moon they become weightless etc and reasoned that materials from your home world must soften you up or something). Then Batman grabs and throws Superman through an adjacent nearby building and then a section of it collapses and is about to fall on a mother, father and an 8 year old boy. Superman sees this and with a final burst of his heat vision destroys it into debris ala Superman Returns. Batman looks on and is stunned and horrified about what he nearly did and realises that Superman is not the bad guy. Then the sun comes up and shines on Superman.(Think of it as a form of symbolism, that the night had its fun and now is the light's turn to
take over). Superman uses a burst of speed and swoops down on Batman.(On a side note, the Kryptonite ran out and is out of Superman's system).

*Superman grabs Batman by the throat*

Superman: "Did you realise what you just nearly did?!"
Batman(gasps):"I needed to neutralize you. You scare people, you think you are high and mighty and above the law taking lives as you please, you are no God!"
Superman:"You're one to talk with what you nearly did there!"
Superman:"I want you to remember...Bruce Wayne"
*Batman's eyes widen in horror that Superman knew who he was this whole time*
Superman: "I want you to remember this symbol Bruce, it means hope. My father sent me here for a reason: to be a symbol of hope for tommorow and every day after that in all the years to come. I'm not here to rule over you or act as judge, jury, executioner. I know that now, from first hand, I want you to remember Bruce, I will never kneel before evil."
Superman: "My purpose in life is to protect life and fight for Truth, Justice and the Right Way. If lives are in danger, I want you to remember that I will always inspire hope."
Batman: "I know that now."
*Superman releases Batman*
Superman: "Fight's over"
Batman: "Luthor..."
Superman:"What?"
Batman:"It's Luthor, he did it"

Now Superman and Batman go and team up and defeat Lex Luthor, and then give the film a good closing point for Superman and Batman for them to create the JL.


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Old 09-09-2013, 05:34 AM   #43
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Default Re: Win, Lose or Draw ! If BM vs SM involves a smackdown, who comes out on top ?

They have already established that this is a grounded Superman. It wouldn't be realistic to have Batman defeat Superman in a head to head brawl unless there is some plot device to act as an equlizer. I myself think that Batman being a little wiser will try to compromise or even outsmart the Man of Steel.

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Old 09-09-2013, 05:39 AM   #44
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Default Re: Win, Lose or Draw ! If BM vs SM involves a smackdown, who comes out on top ?

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Watch this video from start to finish

VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:

Isn't Angry Joe terrific. Yes, he's authoritatively ranted on the subject,
and a very enjoyable rant too, but nonetheless the key questions for
you guys are

1) Who would win ? which, unless you're a rabid Batmaniac, is Superman 99% of the time.

and the more interesting question

2) in the BM v SM film who do you think WILL WIN ? and Why ?

It's been a long day, and I'm a bit braindead, but where were you going with this? But if you're suggesting that Batman will never be able to defeat Supes, I'm still not buying it.

Or were you just drawing the video to my attention, if so, thanks it was great !

I can accept that 99% of the time Bats would get his ass kicked out of our galaxy by Supes (kind of like Ozymandias vs Dr. Manhattan ), but at the same time I also believe it's possible (and believable when handled properly by writers) to see Bats get the upper hand,
through trickery, and one of the patented anti-superman plot devices.

In the film, I'm still predicting that Supes deals to Bats (that's an expression down here, it means that he puts him in his place) early on, and then later Bats has to save his big navy blue butt (probably from Luthor and kryptonite, blah blah blah). That would work for me, just so long as it's not like how that scenario played out in Superman returns, at the very least Batman has to deliver a major beatdown of whoever gets the upper hand on
Supes.

That in itself is a victory for the Batman.

Anyway, tell us more about your reversal idea for the DKR final scene, that's something nobody's raised yet and I think it's an interesting idea.

Peace.

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Old 09-09-2013, 06:38 AM   #45
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Anyway, tell us more about your reversal idea for the DKR final scene, that's something nobody's raised yet and I think it's an interesting idea.

Peace.
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Old 09-09-2013, 07:35 AM   #46
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It's going to be a draw. There will be fan service to Batman and Superman fans.

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Old 09-09-2013, 07:51 AM   #47
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You're missing the point of what I'm saying. You only seem to be concerned with the black and white.

"Superman strong, Superman win, Superman beat puny human man."

Not really that simple.
Not really. I want Batman to pose a challenge to Supes due to his wit and strategy, but for Superman to ultimately overcome it. That's different than just saying, if Batman is a person, Superman will squash him.

But a draw is the optimal outcome.

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Old 09-09-2013, 11:31 AM   #48
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It's going to be a draw. There will be fan service to Batman and Superman fans.
Agreed. IF they fight at all, it will be a draw, despite Bat-fans and Super fans wanting their guy to come out on top. (which we are seeing a lot of in these discussions).

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Old 09-09-2013, 11:33 AM   #49
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Batman isn't even as smart as Lex.
Wrong.

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Old 09-09-2013, 11:39 AM   #50
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Whoever wins, the audience loses.

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