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Old 04-14-2014, 10:26 AM   #251
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Default Re: Batman's fighting style - new Batman, what should his fighting style be like ?

Exactly.

"Better" is in the eye of the beholder. I've no interest in ranking things like that. CAP 2 did a very nice job, that's all I really care about.

But as has been pointed out, the BLADE movies, DAREDEVIL, WATCHMEN and MAN OF STEEL already featured very good hand to hand combat sequences. So did THE AVENGERS. I would potentially add PUNISHER: WARZONE to that mix, and to some extent, the first PUNISHER. Also KICK ASS. In other words, pretty much any comic book movie that doesn't revolve around the use of powers, which should featured a lot of hand to hand, with the exception of Nolan's movies, has featured some impressive hand to hand combat. In non-superhero movies, you've got the obvious choices of the BOURNE, the more recent BOND films, and various martial arts films.

There's also the MATRIX trilogy, which is essentially a superhero movie.

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Old 04-14-2014, 10:32 AM   #252
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Default Re: Batman's fighting style - new Batman, what should his fighting style be like ?

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Exactly.

"Better" is in the eye of the beholder. I've no interest in ranking things like that. CAP 2 did a very nice job, that's all I really care about.

But as has been pointed out, the BLADE movies, DAREDEVIL, WATCHMEN and MAN OF STEEL already featured very good hand to hand combat sequences. I would potentially add PUNISHER: WARZONE to that mix, and to some extent, the first PUNISHER. In other words, pretty much any comic book movie that doesn't revolve around the use of powers, which should featured a lot of hand to hand, with the exception of Nolan's movies, has featured some impressive hand to hand combat. In non-superhero movies, you've got the obvious choices of the BOURNE, the more recent BOND films, and various martial arts films.
Agreed, in Hollywood movies, Taken had good fight sequences, all of the Ip-Man movies, Book of Eli, Bourne films, Transporter, I didn't see the Punisher movies, I don't know what those had going for it. As far as more mainstream fighting, Warrior was like the Rocky of MMA movies.

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Old 04-14-2014, 10:35 AM   #253
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Default Re: Batman's fighting style - new Batman, what should his fighting style be like ?

300 looked awesome, but wasn't exactly the most effective way to fight.

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Old 04-14-2014, 11:49 AM   #254
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Default Re: Batman's fighting style - new Batman, what should his fighting style be like ?

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Maybe its "new toy" syndrome...I don't think WINTER SOLDIER broke any new ground when it comes to fighting.

Fast, fluid hand to hand combat on film isn't new, nor is acrobatic combat really that unknown to the superhero genre.

It's been done on film before, including at points in BATMAN and its sequels.
while it wasn't new...Cap 2 did what Cap 1 and Avengers failed to do..fulfill the promise of The Incredible Hulk when we saw how a super soldier fought.

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Old 04-14-2014, 11:52 AM   #255
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Default Re: Batman's fighting style - new Batman, what should his fighting style be like ?

Having Rogers stand in front of the Hulk would win the cbm wars. lol

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Exactly.

"Better" is in the eye of the beholder. I've no interest in ranking things like that. CAP 2 did a very nice job, that's all I really care about.

But as has been pointed out, the BLADE movies, DAREDEVIL, WATCHMEN and MAN OF STEEL already featured very good hand to hand combat sequences. I would potentially add PUNISHER: WARZONE to that mix, and to some extent, the first PUNISHER. Also KICK ASS. In other words, pretty much any comic book movie that doesn't revolve around the use of powers, which should featured a lot of hand to hand, with the exception of Nolan's movies, has featured some impressive hand to hand combat. In non-superhero movies, you've got the obvious choices of the BOURNE, the more recent BOND films, and various martial arts films.

There's also the MATRIX trilogy, which is essentially a superhero movie.
As you said, "new toy" phenomena. I'm worrisome to the idea that it applies to more than simply that films action scenes however.

Still, I ranted and ranted about the fighting in the first cap film and I'm maybe the biggest fan of the fix. I also think producers severely underrate how far badass action goes to improve a viewing experience. I can only wonder how much more I would have enjoyed the TDKT...

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Old 04-14-2014, 11:57 AM   #256
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Default Re: Batman's fighting style - new Batman, what should his fighting style be like ?

VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:

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Old 04-14-2014, 12:30 PM   #257
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Will never understand why hulk didn't just move in the other direction(away from the cannons). But yea after seeing that Roth super solider, TFA was particularly painful for me.

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Old 04-14-2014, 12:45 PM   #258
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Default Re: Batman's fighting style - new Batman, what should his fighting style be like ?

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The Arkham games, as a collective, are the best visual representation of a modern batman and his fighting style that we've been given outside of comics IMO.
i can agree with this for sure, but I think the next Batfilms could have less "showy" moves like in the Arkham games, imo.

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If he's trained all his life, it's not likely he'd forget all the martial arts he's learned. Although, that's somewhat irrelevant considering they had him fight the same way no matter how old he was.
If he's stuck inside his cave with being semi-retired or however they do it in the movie I think he could be a bit slower and rely more on his fists even with a martial arts background and when it comes to that, I think the fighting seen in Nolan's trilogy would be better, but at least the choreography needs to be stepped up a whole lot.

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It depends on how old they want him to be. Affleck is in his 40s. I think they'll probably have batman in his 40s. I imagine batman being active at least into his 50's. So, this batman isn't really at the end of his career yet. We don't know how his weariness is going to be used either. They might be talking mostly about him being weary in an emotional sense. He's fought hard for Gotham and is starting to wonder if he'll ever conquer all the bad guys that pop up. He's led a hard life and might be exhausted with the proliferation of crime despite his efforts. He's made progress, but at the cost of his own life. Perhaps he hasn't done much besides fight crime for a decade or more.

Either way, he should still have some badass in him. It should come to him like a dance he's done many times before. Things he trained hard to be able to do back in the day are almost effortless to him now.
I agree he should be more badass, and I think if choreography is done better, it could look more badass even with relying on being more of a brawler than anything.

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If they're faithful to the comics, Bruce isn't the type of guy who would slow down that easily. He's always at the top of his game physically.

When they say "tired and weary" I hope they're referring to his mental, emotional state (never-ending war on crime taking its toll) and not his physical condition. It's about time we saw the dangerous, peak form of Batman on screen.
that's I think my biggest concern, in that they would have Bruce slow down due to age and due to possibly being out of the "field" for a good number of years. even when I hate the choreography seen in all three of Nolan's trilogy, i thought it did make sense that Batman's fighting style was even worse than in TDK.

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Maybe its "new toy" syndrome...I don't think WINTER SOLDIER broke any new ground when it comes to fighting.

Fast, fluid hand to hand combat on film isn't new, nor is acrobatic combat really that unknown to the superhero genre.

It's been done on film before, including at points in BATMAN and its sequels.
i too don't understand the overall "hype" over the fighting style in TWS. It's nothing new really and shouldn't be the first example of how Batman's fighting style should be like imo.

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Old 04-14-2014, 01:13 PM   #259
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i too don't understand the overall "hype" over the fighting style in TWS. It's nothing new really and shouldn't be the first example of how Batman's fighting style should be like imo.
Exactly, nothing new that hasn't been done in a movie before. I didn't see a single thing from his fighting that made me go "oh that is nice". I keep saying it, but it is true, if you impress those of us who know martial arts, then the general audience will be impressed. Used an advanced martial art and whatever may be too fast for the audience can be shot in slow motion; however, take advance of the fact that you have a guy in a mask who can be anyone. Use martial artists, real martial artists, not some Hollywood stuntman who knows the same old tired Krav Maga or something like that.

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Old 04-14-2014, 01:19 PM   #260
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Default Re: Batman's fighting style - new Batman, what should his fighting style be like ?

They hype around the fights in TWS isn't because it necessarily new. Its because its so good. Especially considering what a pedestrian fighter Cap was in TFA and Avengers, its a very satisfying surprise.

As for other CBMs, I personally don't think anything in Daredevil, Punisher, Watchmen, etc is better than TWS...

And by better, I mean the overall presentation. That includes choreography, sound effects, fight style, tension, etc. Overall, its just superior to anything seen in CBMs thus far.

Blade was good, but a bit too kung-fuey. And the fighting in Watchmen is just plain overrated. There, I said it. Slow-motion and striking poses after every kick does not make a good action sequence, for me.

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Old 04-14-2014, 01:21 PM   #261
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Exactly, nothing new that hasn't been done in a movie before. I didn't see a single thing from his fighting that made me go "oh that is nice". I keep saying it, but it is true, if you impress those of us who know martial arts, then the general audience will be impressed. Used an advanced martial art and whatever may be too fast for the audience can be shot in slow motion; however, take advance of the fact that you have a guy in a mask who can be anyone. Use martial artists, real martial artists, not some Hollywood stuntman who knows the same old tired Krav Maga or something like that.
Whether it impressed you or not, I would take the fight scenes from TWS over the TDK trilogy a million times over. In the end, we're discussing a Batman movie, not a contest of martial arts.

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Old 04-14-2014, 01:45 PM   #262
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Whether it impressed you or not, I would take the fight scenes from TWS over the TDK trilogy a million times over. In the end, we're discussing a Batman movie, not a contest of martial arts.
But it is harder to impress martial artists, if you impress the hardest ones to impress wouldn't the general audience be impressed as well? They may be impressed by really simple things like a spinning jumping kick, etc. If Batman is supposed to be the most dangerous martial artist in the world or DC Universe, shouldn't he actually fight like the most dangerous martial artists in the world?

1:58 to 2:10 for example has one of the best fighting sequences in Watchmen and I think the general audience was probably impressed by that just as much as they were impressed by the high kicks in the jail sequence and stuff (which are very easy to do).

VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:


That fight sequence there requires training. I can teach someone all those high kicks and spinning kicks from movies in a couple of days. If someone is a quick learner, everything in Captain America I could probably teach to someone in a month or so, and they would be able to do those moves (not perfectly, but enough to film it). The fighting like the one in the scene I posted would take some more training. Engaging multiple opponents with fluid constant movement like that takes more practice. I don't see why the general audience would not be impressed with that.

In fact, I don't see why something that is better, faster, more aggressive than what is shown in Captain America would make audiences like it less, I would think they would like it better, not less.

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Old 04-14-2014, 01:47 PM   #263
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Default Re: Batman's fighting style - new Batman, what should his fighting style be like ?

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Blade was good, but a bit too kung-fuey. And the fighting in Watchmen is just plain overrated. There, I said it. Slow-motion and striking poses after every kick does not make a good action sequence, for me.
No. Though the amount of variety in the films and the versatility of the actor did allow for one or two more hong kong influenced scenes yes. Such as the Donnie Yen choreographed sword fight. That being said, too kung-fuey lol


Such a statement implies you've never heard of Nomak.

Of course it's a matter of opinion but I do think you bring up an interesting discussion point. That of what's better. Slow mo asian style posy stuff or the more gritty matter of fact stuff. Kinda like asking people if they prefer the Matrix fights or the Bourne ones.

I do think unlike cap, batman should have some eastern influence in his learnings and such things should come out when he's faced off with a Shiva type. Such as footwork and stances. I've always been of a mind to assume batman uses the style best designed for group fights during group fights and then things like akido for other situations etc...
Making up your own style seems more like cap/spidey/logan.

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Old 04-14-2014, 02:53 PM   #264
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Good post, Marvin. I think you're right about us having different preferences for how fights are portrayed. While I prefer the Bourne/TWS style, I can certainly respect people who prefer different styles, such as the one in Blade.

I think you have a good point about Batman displaying some Eastern elements, as he trained all over the world. It makes more sense for Cap to have a more Western, basic but effective way of fighting.

Having said that, I thought Cap showed a variety of different fight styles in TWS. It definitely seemed to be based off Krav, but I'm pretty sure some Muay Thai and BJJ techniques were in there too. Also, fighting with the shield and the enhanced abilities make it a whole different thing that can't be compared to.

I guess that, when I say I want Batman to be like Cap in TWS, I'm thinking more about the choreography, sound effects, and overall presentation than the specific fighting method used.

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Old 04-14-2014, 03:01 PM   #265
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I want Batman to actually USE gadgets more in his fighting.

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Old 04-14-2014, 03:05 PM   #266
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I think most would agree with that sort of upgrade with batman's fighting. For a guy known in the comics as being the arguable best and all that 127 styles stuff...it's been severely lacking. It's actually been kinda stupid imo.

I'd be happy walking away with a batman that would conceivable take on cap as presented in TWS. Given fans have often brought up that debate.

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Old 04-14-2014, 03:21 PM   #267
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I picture the batman fighting with a jeet kune do -ish style. being able to adapt to any kind of fight. in any enviroment. i would like to see him use the shadows and for his blows to be about as powerful as caps were in tws.ni hope that they portray him very angry, viscious, brutal when he fights. as if every opponent killed his parents.

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Old 04-14-2014, 03:37 PM   #268
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Batman should seem like an unstoppable force that eats common thugs for breakfast. I'd like a scene where Batman lays waste to an entire squadron or large group of enemies, without breaking a sweat.

At least that much is required when being paired up with the Kryptonian.

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Old 04-14-2014, 03:39 PM   #269
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I'd like to see him use a batarang somehow. Maybe as some sort of throwing star like in BB.

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Old 04-14-2014, 05:09 PM   #270
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Default Re: Batman's fighting style - new Batman, what should his fighting style be like ?

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I picture the batman fighting with a jeet kune do -ish style. being able to adapt to any kind of fight. in any environment. i would like to see him use the shadows and for his blows to be about as powerful as caps were in tws.ni hope that they portray him very angry, viscious, brutal when he fights. as if every opponent killed his parents.
You've got a very good point. Batman's fighting should be a mixture of different styles that also incorporates using his environment and technology. It should have flourishes of different styles. Jeet Kune Do does have that mixture and philosophy of stripping what is unnecessary. KFM in the Dark Knight films looked OK, but it was seriously lacking in speed. Too many of the movements were slowed down so the audience could see it. Maybe I'm in the minority but it really bugged me how often he was opening himself up for counters. He had the brutality but not the speed. I'm sorry but for someone to have trained as hard as he supposedly did, he had very little variety in his attacks and defense. But I also concede that I may have a bias view being a student of a few styles. I don't want that to be taken as some sort of validation of my opinion. Just full disclosure that I'm going to probably be more critical of what I see.
I think we should trust the audience a little more. You don't have to dumb it down for general audiences. It's more about doing away with shaky cam. It doesn't put you in the middle of the fight. It only confuses people. You don't have to lock down the camera. Just let it capture the movement. I personally would love to see an implementation of this camera system that Keanu Reeves wanted to use for Man of Tai Chi. Get in there, and show us Batman's brutality and commitment to learning every style he could get his hands on.

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Old 04-14-2014, 05:32 PM   #271
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Flourishes of overt style would definitely be the way to wow audiences.

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Old 04-14-2014, 06:09 PM   #272
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YES, im thankfull for Nolan and bringing batman back in a big way but damn smh. i mean i think Bale did the best Bruce Wayne ever but his batman was very much not batman imo. watching his batman was a major let down for me. fighting, detective skills, ect. there was good moments but to many moments where im like "comic batman wouldve" ..maybe it was a product of its time ..the action in these movies are improving i believe. but i know that one thing snyder will do is make batman badass. comic book batman im hoping

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Old 04-14-2014, 07:14 PM   #273
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I want Batman to actually USE gadgets more in his fighting.


I agree more smoke bombs.

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Old 04-14-2014, 09:41 PM   #274
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Still, I ranted and ranted about the fighting in the first cap film and I'm maybe the biggest fan of the fix. I also think producers severely underrate how far badass action goes to improve a viewing experience. I can only wonder how much more I would have enjoyed the TDKT...
It would be especially advantageous to have well choreographed fights in a movie about a character that is known for his martial arts abilities, lol.

Action scenes are part of the character. Neglecting them is choosing to ignore that aspect of batman.

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Old 04-15-2014, 05:48 AM   #275
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What do you guys think of Batman using an advanced style of combat like this? This looks FAST and aggressive, love it!

VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:


VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:


VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:


Just from those short little demos you can see that it is aggressive, fast, and he actually moves his body INTO the person in front of him. He isn't standing around playing with the guy. That looks good. I'd love to see Batman use that style of combat fast and quickly full speed. Very explosive.

VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:


It looks good, fast, aggressive, and it isn't like old school kung fu movies or anything. It looks very realistic. I can't imagine how awesome that would look in a Hollywood movie. It is fast and you can see how you can fight multiple opponents. I personally love how amazing this looks.


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