The Case For a Pure Versus Movie

[Mightyally]

Yes your point is good jmc! What´s important if they do this though, is that neither of the heroes are portrayed in a way that makes us dislike them.

Sure, someone needs to learn the "ultimate" lesson(supes imo, for several reasons) but we aren´t supposed to like him less because of that.

During the movie both must show good and bad sides. The choice shouldn´t be obvious. You shouldn´t like Batman over Supes because they make Superman look stupid. No it´s better to show + and - with both charachters and teach say Supes the ultimate lesson. I think that would connect well with Justice League. One could see it as Batman in a way helped Superman become a better leader by teaching him to not underestimate his foes... for instance.

[Masone]

Originally Posted by Mightyally

Yes your point is good jmc! What´s important if they do this though, is that neither of the heroes are portrayed in a way that makes us dislike them.

Sure, someone needs to learn the "ultimate" lesson(supes imo, for several reasons) but we aren´t supposed to like him less because of that.

During the movie both must show good and bad sides. The choice shouldn´t be obvious. You shouldn´t like Batman over Supes because they make Superman look stupid. No it´s better to show + and - with both charachters and teach say Supes the ultimate lesson. I think that would connect well with Justice League. One could see it as Batman in a way helped Superman become a better leader by teaching him to not underestimate his foes... for instance.

That's good with me, but Batman should also learn a lesson from his time with Supes. It should be a thing where they both come out having learned something from the other.

[jmc]

I'll make the analogy with a boxing movie. Usually with a boxing film one person plays the 'villain' role, even if they're not truly a villain per se they aren't the one you're cheering for. The opponent tends to have traits and a personality that is the opposite of who the 'hero' is. This is exactly what a genuine Batman vs Superman can be, the superhero equivalent of Rocky if you will, two people with different ideologies taking on one and other with the film building up to the 15 round title fight for the Heavyweight Championship. But someone has to come out the victor to some capacity, we can't have a situation whereby it ends in a draw, that's anticlimactic. I don't care who it is who wins but we can't spend an entire third act of the biggest superhero battle in history with both declaring a stalemate. I know some people don't like the idea of one of the two characters being crowed a winner but someone has to emerge with a victory of some sort. You can still end it with their being a sense of respect and understanding of where each person is coming from, but they don't have to be drinking buddies by films end. Lessons will be learned, lessons that will shape the future of both franchises, but if it's done right it will be worth it.

[DA_Champion]

Another factor:

We're already getting a team-up movie: Justice League 2017.

You don't want to show the same movie twice in a row by having a team-up movie shown in summer 2015.

[TheFlamingCoco]

Is 2017 confirmed? But a one person crossover teamup is different from a 5+ person teamup. It'd be like comparing IM2 with TA. Sure BlackWidow teams up with Tony Stark, but the dynamic is different from TA.

[DA_Champion]

Originally Posted by TheFlamingCoco

Is 2017 confirmed? But a one person crossover teamup is different from a 5+ person teamup. It'd be like comparing IM2 with TA. Sure BlackWidow teams up with Tony Stark, but the dynamic is different from TA.

JL is not confirmed, but it seems to be the general consensus around here so I'm going along.

It's been a while since I watched IM 2, but I recall BW showed up only very briefly in what felt like an add-on to the plot to advertise the avengers.

[Tempest]

Originally Posted by jmc

I'll make the analogy with a boxing movie. Usually with a boxing film one person plays the 'villain' role, even if they're not truly a villain per se they aren't the one you're cheering for. The opponent tends to have traits and a personality that is the opposite of who the 'hero' is. This is exactly what a genuine Batman vs Superman can be, the superhero equivalent of Rocky if you will, two people with different ideologies taking on one and other with the film building up to the 15 round title fight for the Heavyweight Championship. But someone has to come out the victor to some capacity, we can't have a situation whereby it ends in a draw, that's anticlimactic. I don't care who it is who wins but we can't spend an entire third act of the biggest superhero battle in history with both declaring a stalemate. I know some people don't like the idea of one of the two characters being crowed a winner but someone has to emerge with a victory of some sort. You can still end it with their being a sense of respect and understanding of where each person is coming from, but they don't have to be drinking buddies by films end. Lessons will be learned, lessons that will shape the future of both franchises, but if it's done right it will be worth it.

Yeah, but your idea is preachy and it's really quite frankly, boring. How would you keep people interested in a 'boxing' film for super heroes?

I mean, there has to be excellent motivation for these guys to not figure out how to see eye-to-eye throughout the whole film without making one of them look like a complete jerk.

Superman could be taking his vigilant justice too far; interfering in international problems, handing out justice in ways that perhaps aren't entirely legal, but that just makes him look like a jerk.

Batman could dislike Superman for being an alien, for being too powerful, or because Superman ends up on his turf for some reason. Although that's perfectly IC for Batman to behave, he still comes off like an ass half the time.

The big problem with such a major conflict is that there is absolutely NO reason then for the guys to work together in the future. That means the next film will be wasting a lot of time on somehow getting these guys to join forces, when there is zero motivation for them to want to work together.

Goyer managed to surprise me with MOS, so if he goes the route of whole long drawn out fight between Batman and Superman, then I might be surprised again.

[jmc]

Originally Posted by Tempest

Yeah, but your idea is preachy and it's really quite frankly, boring. How would you keep people interested in a 'boxing' film for super heroes?

I mean, there has to be excellent motivation for these guys to not figure out how to see eye-to-eye throughout the whole film without making one of them look like a complete jerk.

Superman could be taking his vigilant justice too far; interfering in international problems, handing out justice in ways that perhaps aren't entirely legal, but that just makes him look like a jerk.

Batman could dislike Superman for being an alien, for being too powerful, or because Superman ends up on his turf for some reason. Although that's perfectly IC for Batman to behave, he still comes off like an ass half the time.

The big problem with such a major conflict is that there is absolutely NO reason then for the guys to work together in the future. That means the next film will be wasting a lot of time on somehow getting these guys to join forces, when there is zero motivation for them to want to work together.

Goyer managed to surprise me with MOS, so if he goes the route of whole long drawn out fight between Batman and Superman, then I might be surprised again.

How the hell is what I wrote preachy? And you're taking the boxing thing way too literally, I was just using it as an example of how you play two characters against each other who aren't necessarily enemies. And as for future films this is the beginning of the relationship, it's not the cementing of it. I know some of you want Bats and Sups to be all best mates at the end but there's actually more to gain from the film ending with them not being friends, it means there's something to work toward in future movies especially JL. This whole thing about them having no motivation for teaming up later on is frankly absurd, what each will gain from their encounter will be an understanding of what they both bring to the table. In a future JL film both will know they need to work together, and it is in that film where relationship can be cemented. It's kinda dull if they're both mates at the beginning of a JL film. There's no reason you can't end BvS with them having a new found respect for one another, it doesn't have to end on bad terms where they hate one and other, that's being extreme for the sake of argument.

[the last son]

I want a pure vs movie.

[Mr.M]

I don't think a versus movie can be done with the intent of JL. If Batman is going to be this gung-ho about ridding the planet of aliens, then how on Earth does he gel with JL? I mean, this isn't just a matter of reconciling differences. Batman has to be a member on the team and has to collaborate with these aliens instead of being counter productive the entire time. It would be a nice story to see, but how do you end it? Who wins? Who would be the Rocky Balboa or Apollo Creed?

If a versus movie is the direction they go with, I would make Batman the Apollo Creed, but his identity should remain a secret until the end. I think he should be mentally broken once his identity is exposed and Bruce Wayne falls out of favor with the public as the man responsible for crippling Superman. Then Lex may want to finish Superman off, but Batman has to intervene and sacrifices himself maybe not with his life, but something meaningful enough where he can still contribute on the JL as the mastermind behind the operations, seeing limited physical action against Darkseid or whatever.

[TheFlamingCoco]

It can be a vs movie like Toy Story was a VS movie against Lightyear. That movie developed Woody AND Buzz's character, explored the world that the toys made up, AND explored the relationships between them and other characters.

Zack Snyder should rewatch Toy Story for some inspiration

[Mr.M]

Originally Posted by TheFlamingCoco

It can be a vs movie like Toy Story was a VS movie against Lightyear. That movie developed Woody AND Buzz's character, explored the world that the toys made up, AND explored the relationships between them and other characters.

Zack Snyder should rewatch Toy Story for some inspiration

It's still clichéd... that's the issue. Yeah the movie is going to be a hit regardless, but we've seen that story before.

[TheFlamingCoco]

And we've seen alien invasions, teamups, romances, fighting, conspiracy, before. I'm not saying they shouldn't try to create original work, but rejecting an idea because it's been done before in a different way is wrong. With that in mind, HTTYD and The Iron Giant shouldn't have been made because the story of an alien pet showing up and the community being scared has been done before (ET).

[STARMAN]

I think they're going to do the old fight in Act 2, then team-up in Act 3 bit.

[Frodo]

Well to be fair , I think the team up and the vs are both clichéd at this point. The question becomes how to tell the new story and what new story you want to tell which makes the audience engaged with it. Either route is also dependent on factors beyond just the two characters. You still have the supporting characters such as Lois, Lex, Bruce's Love interest, in addition to the story threads left over from MOS which are gonna dictate the type of story you tell and the approach toward the two leads. You also have what's been mentioned before, which is the final destination. Where do you want the story and the characters to be at the end of this film? What's the ultimate goal? And frankly , it also depends on whether or not this is a team up film or just a sequel to MOS featuring Batman. Either option I think , will dictate what type of film we're going to get.

[Tempest]

Originally Posted by jmc

How the hell is what I wrote preachy? And you're taking the boxing thing way too literally, I was just using it as an example of how you play two characters against each other who aren't necessarily enemies. And as for future films this is the beginning of the relationship, it's not the cementing of it. I know some of you want Bats and Sups to be all best mates at the end but there's actually more to gain from the film ending with them not being friends, it means there's something to work toward in future movies especially JL. This whole thing about them having no motivation for teaming up later on is frankly absurd, what each will gain from their encounter will be an understanding of what they both bring to the table. In a future JL film both will know they need to work together, and it is in that film where relationship can be cemented. It's kinda dull if they're both mates at the beginning of a JL film. There's no reason you can't end BvS with them having a new found respect for one another, it doesn't have to end on bad terms where they hate one and other, that's being extreme for the sake of argument.

You're idea is that Superman needs to 'learn lessons' in order to be a better person/superhero/whatever your goal is.

It's very easy to get preachy, especially if the lesson being 'taught' is a philosophical one. Plus, like I said, I think it will be difficult to fill an hour plus of movie time with that kind of thing.

As for the rest, I don't necessarily want them to be best buds at the end of the film, but I don't want there to be too much animosity at the end either. There has to be a happy medium where the guys leave things off at least as reluctant partners at times, otherwise the payoff of the film will kind of suck. What was the point in having them fight if they don't resolve things one way or another?

That just means that a JL movie will spend time resolving things between them, instead of developing other interesting characters.

If there was a confirmed schedule for sequels, I'd be more comfortable with the idea of Batman and Superman ending on a sour note, but as there is not, I'd rather they streamline the story than to get too bogged down in what could be a crippling rivalry between the two.

I don't know why people want to see them fight so badly; Superman and Batman make up the greatest comic partnership of all time. They are at their best when they're working together. I want to see that come alive on the screen, not waste time with them having what amounts to a pissing contest.

[TheBat812]

Agreed. Also a villain should be more than just background fluff being set up for another film, for they need and deserve to have an arc during the film and help develop the two heroes and their relationship.

[Mightyally]

I would like to see a pure Batman vs Superman movie. The whole team up thing will be seen in Justice League as someone mentioned and I think a pure vs movie
has more to offer. Sure they are the best team up but that can be shown even more when they establish the JL, or in a second movie.

The reason for them being VS.
Personally I think that Lex could could play the Man of steel as well as The Batman. He could have both of them think that they are doing the right thing while they
are actaully being played against eachother unaware of Lex scheme. They would collide somewhere along their "noble" paths, giving us a pure vs movie thx to
Lex who made it that way. I can think of several reasons for why he would want to do this.

Now this doesn´t mean that we can´t have another villain. We could have The Riddler or someone from Gotham to be a part of Lex plan. So Batman comes across
this villain that´s really there on purpose. That way we could have another villain partly involved without the team up against him(even if this villain can´t consume
too much time). It would be a cool thing to do imo and also a good way for Lex to sell the whole thing to Batman.

The balance of pros and cons in each hero.
The audiance should see pros and cons in both charachters and yet consider both to be heroes. No one should appear better than the other. What I mean is that
it´s not going to be a SUPERMAN vs Batman movie or a Man of Steel 2 - vs Batman... where we think Batman is the villain until the end where it´s better
explained to us. No, Batman isn´t the villain he is a hero, Lex is the villain. In the end Lex´s entire scheme should be revealed for the heroes. We on the other hand
will already know some of this scheme from the beginning but now we get the complete version.

I don´t want to feel like Batman is a douche the entire movie. I want to see Lex play his game on both heroes. I want to see his motives(partly in the beginning and
more later on) and I want to understand how his plan is affecting Bruce and Clark and while I see them fight I will then understand why they are fighting eachother
so badly. Lex really need to push on their weak spots here.

Learning the lesson.
Someone mentioned that it would cool if someone learned a lesson from this. To have one clear winner rather than a tie and then a team up. I agree on this.
Someone should loose but not in way that makes them look stupid though. I don´t think Batman should crush Superman or own him so much that we loose hope in
him or start cheering on Batman entierly. It´s more about giving appreciation to Batman´s experice and wisdom and let that(via some kind of defeat) fix a part of
Clark that´s not well equiped for a leader. So Batman helps Clark becomming a better leader. However, Batman should learn a lesson from Superman too but the
ultimate lesson goes to Clark OR anyway you like it. It doesn´t really matter who learns what as long as it´s done in a good way.

The relation
The realtion must be done in a good way. Preferably in a way where Superman and Batman can forgive eachother, accept eachothers differeces and become
friendly(not friends). They need some common ground but also some issues with eachother.

The ending
It should end with Superman and Batman having been "inspired"/learned from eachother, like they have seen something worth considering during their fights so
that in the end where Lex think they will seriously finish eachother, they finish fighting eachother. They in a way combine their better sides to become the worlds
finest. It´s one of my ideas that Batman should show Superman mercy.

Imagine if Batman found/synthesized kryptonite(good way to introduce this btw) in order to harm MoS, but in the final moment where let´s say MoS isss
temporarily trapped or slowed down, he doesn´t use it because he understands that it´s not always about taking down the enemy in a brutal way with the most
efectiveness. So he learns his lesson from Clark and doesn´t show the world that the Man of Steel can be harmed by a man. Lex loses because he can´t get the
one man who can come up with a way to kill supes to kill him or harm him.

(This text does speak against itself sometimes lol but it´s more about showing some ideas that can be used rather than one big idea)

[TheBat812]

But if you want to have lex playing them, would they then be too stupid to figure it out? Not saying much for our heroes. That's why I suspect the first two acts will be very much a 'versus' kind of tension, until they realize they've been so focused on each other that they've been missing the true source. And then together they resolve it. It's simply not a satisfying story to have pure vs the way anybody here has described it. There's probably a way, but nobody here has convinced that's the smartest way to go.

[Isearch4dope]

Good discussion but Goyer and Snyder alone (maybe with the help of batfleck and others) probably won't even think on the level we are currently going for but maybe they'll prove us wrong. What I'm eager to know is what will motivate a god-like alien to see the need of a partnership with a human because this is what it will come down to. We all have seen that Superman is here to help on his own terms and will never be controlled via MOS. The only way for Superman to respect and acknowledge this human as being worthy (to fight alongside him possibly against other god-like enemies that could crush him easily) is for Batman to show the extraordinary ability and means to take him down alone. The best way imo for this to happen is for Superman to become fascinated and in awe of Batman because he won't know what hit him. I'm all for Batman being the villain but he would appear at the halfway mark (Bruce Wayne appearances during the first half) of the movie with all his activities being done in the shadows until he unleashes on Superman and we see just what he is capable of. With this first confrontation of them in costume we find out all we need to know about this Batman and his motivations. The first half of the movie would focus on Superman mainly and his journey from his perspective and the world's current state because of his presence. That's time for the beginning of Lex's anti superman arc, Lois and Clark relationship, Clark at Daily Planet, Superman's relationship with the government and the world etc. This Batman as we now know is tired, weary and has been around for a while and he feels that he has mastered taking care of all threats effectively enough. What if with the appearance of these powerful aliens he feels upstaged and is compelled to meet the challenge of taking down this new kind of threat both for personal gratification and in case of future attacks. Superman being the seemingly peaceful alien is the perfect opportunity to get close enough and develop a plan to defeat him. When they finally meet and he takes down Superman momentarily in an epic sequence of events, Superman then outclasses him but stops fighting and asks him to become his ally having already heard of him and having now witnessed his potential. Batman is secretly flattered that this God sees him as some sort of equal and just says I'll think about it and tells him to stay out of Gotham. Superman might reply, "You can't keep me out"....and Batman would fire back with "We'll see about that." This is when we move to the battle of ideals which makes for a interesting alliance over the next couple of months and we find out exactly what they don't like about each other due to their interactions. The first villain here is Batman's paranoia and ego and the second villain is them finding a way to work together with their approach to justice being so different (Batman and Superman are the good guys). A final event threatening Gotham and Metropolis brings them in action together indirectly and they put their differences aside for the best realizing after the battle that they create the perfect balance of justice. This is when they are officially Batman/Superman.

[Mightyally]

Batfleck! haha

[smallville fan]

Originally Posted by jmc

If you noticed I used the word villain in inverted commas, ie Batman is the antagonist not an actual villain. In all honesty, you don't need Lex if Batman is going to be present because he basically can be a substitution for Lex. My issue is teaming them up to combat a mutual threat - it's boring and predictable and a film I can already play out in my head. Batman vs Superman should be about a clash of ideologies and misunderstandings, a simmering tension that bursts onto the surface in full view of everyone, and the finale should have one of them coming out on top. Go big or go home, don't pussy foot around and have them at the end of the film and be all smiles and handshakes, if you want there to be a sense of respect after all is said and done then that's fine, but one of them has to learn something about themselves after the ordeal, either Bruce needs to learn his actions aren't always right, or Clark needs to learn that in spite of his powers he can still be brought down to size.

MOS sets up Lex Luthor unbelievably well, you have to be silly to not include him in any capacity. There will be public outcry against Superman in the next film for sure, Lex perfectly symbolizes that. Clark still needs some character development before he becomes that person who embodies those qualities, he deserves fleshing out before he's "brought down to size". Lex Luthor can also act as the vehicle to bring Superman and Batman to even meet. The last time Zack Snyder "went big rather than going home" and decided to not play it safe, we got Man of Steel sure there's fans of that movie but I don't need to tell you and others about the other kind of reception it got. As for the cliched plot, it's all about how it's presented, rather than what is presented. If David Goyer (with a slight touch of a possible Ben Affleck ghost-writing) could make the team up interesting enough that it doesn't look too Avengers-like, then it might be great.

Originally Posted by TheBat812

But if you want to have lex playing them, would they then be too stupid to figure it out? Not saying much for our heroes. That's why I suspect the first two acts will be very much a 'versus' kind of tension, until they realize they've been so focused on each other that they've been missing the true source. And then together they resolve it. It's simply not a satisfying story to have pure vs the way anybody here has described it. There's probably a way, but nobody here has convinced that's the smartest way to go.

^This.

[jmc]

Originally Posted by Tempest

You're idea is that Superman needs to 'learn lessons' in order to be a better person/superhero/whatever your goal is.

That's not what I said.

Originally Posted by Tempest

It's very easy to get preachy, especially if the lesson being 'taught' is a philosophical one. Plus, like I said, I think it will be difficult to fill an hour plus of movie time with that kind of thing.

As for the rest, I don't necessarily want them to be best buds at the end of the film, but I don't want there to be too much animosity at the end either. There has to be a happy medium where the guys leave things off at least as reluctant partners at times, otherwise the payoff of the film will kind of suck. What was the point in having them fight if they don't resolve things one way or another?

That just means that a JL movie will spend time resolving things between them, instead of developing other interesting characters.

If there was a confirmed schedule for sequels, I'd be more comfortable with the idea of Batman and Superman ending on a sour note, but as there is not, I'd rather they streamline the story than to get too bogged down in what could be a crippling rivalry between the two.

I don't know why people want to see them fight so badly; Superman and Batman make up the greatest comic partnership of all time. They are at their best when they're working together. I want to see that come alive on the screen, not waste time with them having what amounts to a pissing contest.

Again you're taking things to extremes to prove a point. Who says there has to be animosity at the end? Who says it has to be crippling? You're only assuming it can be done a certain way. Don't just look at it from one perspective, there are a bunch of directions you could take and still end up with a situation where both characters aren't disrespected. I get it, people don't want one character to triumph over the other, but what's the point in a Verses movie if they're just going to end up working together? What, they fight in the first act, put aside their difference and join forces to fight off the big bad guy at the end? It's the movie we can already play out in our mind. If you're going to do a Verses movie then that has to be the climax of the film, and someone has to win.

[jmc]

Originally Posted by TheBat812

But if you want to have lex playing them, would they then be too stupid to figure it out? Not saying much for our heroes. That's why I suspect the first two acts will be very much a 'versus' kind of tension, until they realize they've been so focused on each other that they've been missing the true source. And then together they resolve it. It's simply not a satisfying story to have pure vs the way anybody here has described it. There's probably a way, but nobody here has convinced that's the smartest way to go.

But what you wrote is predictable. The biggest thing about them fighting in the first two acts is that there's no build up towards it.

[StraightSix]

Great post, you've definitely swayed me into thinking this way.