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Old 06-25-2014, 08:45 PM   #1
Dasher10
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Default Heinrich Zemo and Nick Fury Sr need to be in this.

So is there anyone else who wants to see these two appear? If the show is set in the aftermath of World War II, then it's obvious that the first Baron Zemo would take over HYDRA and use it for his own purposes to set up the inevitable villain for the next Captain America sequel.

At the same time, Nick Fury Sr. should appear. He's one of the founders of SHIELD after all. There also needs to be some drama about a man in the late 40s who's trying to hide his love for a black woman. Plus, Peggy absolutely needs a superior who may not take her seriously as a woman but when she returns to base is always subtly impressed by her reports.

Also, I'd have the series keep going until the early 80s with each season skipping a decade.

Theoretically, Agent Carter can skip decades from the 40s to the 50s with the first wave of feminism during the civil rights movement, leading to Peggy getting more respect from Nick while Nick's son is born. This is also where 1950s-style Cold War intrigue is in full swing to the point where HYDRA aligns itself with the Soviet Union. This in addition to the Stark Expo debuting as does the Winter Soldier.

Then a 60s series where the moral ambiguity of the Cold War is setting in, SHIELD's dark side gets showcased more often and HYDRA becomes more sympathetic. Oh, and a SHIELD splinter-faction known as Leviathan appears which has duplicated the Super Soldier Serum and allowed it to have anti-aging properties with the intent of creating immortal warriors. The first of these is Black Widow who's a KGB agent recruited into Leviathan. Nick Sr. takes the serum himself. Nick lies to Nick Jr about his day job. A Leviathan operative named Anton Vanko also designs a prototype powered exoskeleton and calls himself the Crimson Dynamo.

Then in the 1970s, Arnim Zola is secretly recruited back into HYDRA and gets his consciousness uploaded into an AI, Nick Jr joins the military and Tony Stark and Helmut Zemo are born. Howard Stark also works with a Soviet Defector from Leviathan named Anton Vanko on the arc reactor after he becomes targeted by Zemo. This is also where Dum Dum Dugan dies.

By the 1980s, everything hits the fan. Nick Jr. learns of his father's identity and is recruited into SHIELD after his father is forced into retirement. A young Donald Pierce works his way up through the ranks of SHIELD. Black Widow defects to the West after learning that Leviathan was compromised by HYDRA. Peggy Carter becomes director of SHIELD. Oh, and Howard Stark and Heinrich Zemo both die. Howard and Maria Stark are assassinated by Bucky Barnes on Zemo's orders which causes Peggy Carter to personally handle Zemo once and for all, killing him in front of his young son who is forcefully interrogated by SHIELD agents before being released back into the world since a small child isn't considered a significant threat. Black Widow is granted a new identity after defecting on the condition that she serve SHIELD. Nick Fury Sr. says a few parting words to his son before disappearing, presumably never to return.

Point being, we need Zemo to be somebody masterminding HYDRA. Arnim Zola needs to be conflicted if he's supposed to last as a character until the 70s, otherwise he's not compelling, nor can he be LEADING HYDRA if he's undercover in SHIELD. Also, Nick Fury Sr. should be this mentor figure who Peggy eventually surpasses and outranks with Nick even conceding that the only reason why he outranks her for most of the series is because he's a man and Peggy should always have been in charge. These two characters are integral. That and Helmut Zemo can't be a major villain until his father has been dead for a good long while.

Also, Nick Fury needs to have his father be present since you can't do a Cold War-era Marvel story without him. Agent Carter needs to be about legacies. It needs to be about how Black Widow and Winter Soldier evolved into who they are today. It needs to be about why Helmut Zemo is so mentally unstable and wants revenge on SHIELD. It needs to be about Peggy Carter, Howard Stark and Nick Fury Sr. paving the way for the new generation. It also needs to establish that Russia has Crimson Dynamo as a title which may also tie into a potential War Machine solo film.

Point being, I can't see how this show can even be greenlit without Nick Fury Sr and Heinrich Zemo. They're so essential to the Marvel Universe as a whole where everything from Secret Avengers to Thunderbolts is somehow tied to the two of them.

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Old 06-26-2014, 06:27 AM   #2
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Default Re: Heinrich Zemo and Nick Fury Sr need to be in this.

I could do without Nick Fury Sr. I want one Nick Fury and, in this universe, it's Samuel L. Jackson. Given the timeline as we know it now, I see no indication of a second Nick Fury anyway.

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Old 06-26-2014, 08:25 AM   #3
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Default Re: Heinrich Zemo and Nick Fury Sr need to be in this.

This is nice fan-fic and all, but no. The main problems I see in regard to incorporating your ideas are:

* There's nothing that this show needs to be other than interesting, compelling and entertaining. The history of the MCU is obviously not going to exactly follow the comic book history, which you seem to be advocating for, where events follow a sliding time-scale and details can be changed (read: retconned) based on individual writers' whims.

* In the MCU, HYDRA has been completely off-the-RADAR and presumed disbanded between World War 2 and the events of CA:TWS. To portray them as an active organization would undercut some core facts established in the MCU. To have Heinrich Zemo lead a post-WW2 HYDRA would be completely contradictory.

* I actually like the "each season would span a decade" concept, but the writers have already stated that each season would cover about a year. In an interview from a few months back, one of them said that the series would be set in 1946, and if people liked it (read: renewed) then they would come back next year and the year would be 1947. Here's the link.

* Highly doubt Scarlett Johansson would agree to a TV role, especially one in which she wouldn't even be a main character. You could cast someone else and explain it away that she got some radical plastic surgery to change her appearance, but that would be about as contrived as introducing some faux-Infinity Formula to explain away aging. The Infinity Formula is a necessity in the comics to explain why some characters don't age. In the MCU, it would come off as a silly gimmick.

* We already have a Nick Fury in the MCU. Just let him be. We don't need to introduce a white dude who, let me guess, coincidentally lost an eye too, just to bring things closer to the 616.

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Old 06-26-2014, 07:51 PM   #4
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Default Re: Heinrich Zemo and Nick Fury Sr need to be in this.

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Originally Posted by fixxxer View Post
This is nice fan-fic and all, but no. The main problems I see in regard to incorporating your ideas are:

* There's nothing that this show needs to be other than interesting, compelling and entertaining. The history of the MCU is obviously not going to exactly follow the comic book history, which you seem to be advocating for, where events follow a sliding time-scale and details can be changed (read: retconned) based on individual writers' whims.

* In the MCU, HYDRA has been completely off-the-RADAR and presumed disbanded between World War 2 and the events of CA:TWS. To portray them as an active organization would undercut some core facts established in the MCU. To have Heinrich Zemo lead a post-WW2 HYDRA would be completely contradictory.

* I actually like the "each season would span a decade" concept, but the writers have already stated that each season would cover about a year. In an interview from a few months back, one of them said that the series would be set in 1946, and if people liked it (read: renewed) then they would come back next year and the year would be 1947. Here's the link.

* Highly doubt Scarlett Johansson would agree to a TV role, especially one in which she wouldn't even be a main character. You could cast someone else and explain it away that she got some radical plastic surgery to change her appearance, but that would be about as contrived as introducing some faux-Infinity Formula to explain away aging. The Infinity Formula is a necessity in the comics to explain why some characters don't age. In the MCU, it would come off as a silly gimmick.

* We already have a Nick Fury in the MCU. Just let him be. We don't need to introduce a white dude who, let me guess, coincidentally lost an eye too, just to bring things closer to the 616.

Okay but a lot of this can be inferred from what we've already seen.

1. Anton Vanko DID work with Howard Stark, he did defect to the west and he did co-create the arc reactor. His son, Ivan, was Whiplash in Iron Man 2 who disliked how Howard Stark stole the credit for his father's work.

2. Arnim Zola did become an AI in 1974 as stated in Captain America: The Winter Soldier.

3. It's impossible for Black Widow to have been born in the 80s and have worked for the KGB. The KGB was replaced with the FSB in the early 90s. The Infinity Formula along with a forged identity happens to be the easiest way to explain that plot hole.

4. Heinrich Zemo is obviously going to be one of the villains since it's the aftermath of the second World War. Also, with Cap 3 confirmed, Helmut Zemo is the biggest villain that Marvel hasn't used. I can put two and two together.

5. I want a setup for Thunderbolts and War Machine films. Is that really too much to ask?

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Old 06-27-2014, 11:34 AM   #5
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Default Re: Heinrich Zemo and Nick Fury Sr need to be in this.

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3. It's impossible for Black Widow to have been born in the 80s and have worked for the KGB. The KGB was replaced with the FSB in the early 90s. The Infinity Formula along with a forged identity happens to be the easiest way to explain that plot hole.
That's only a problem if you, one, assume the MCU follows real life history to the letter, and two, that everyone involved in that conversation was being 100% literal. The first is a terrible assumption, and the second always strikes me as incredibly weird. People in real life don't always speak 100% literally, why would you assume people in movies would?

Given that there *is* evidence that Natasha is, in fact, as old as she seems, the two really easy explanations are:

1. The KGB remained around longer in the MCU than in real life. Maybe the Russians didn't rename their intelligence apparatus after the USSR fell, or maybe the KGB stuck around as a semi-independent operation, with its former employees taking positions in business, government, and crime.

2. The KGB did cease to officially exist when it did historically. If queried on this matter, Natasha would roll her eyes and cynically remark that, in Russian, 'FSB' is pronounced the same as 'KGB'. Its all the same in her eyes, and largely in fact too.

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Old 06-27-2014, 06:06 PM   #6
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Default Re: Heinrich Zemo and Nick Fury Sr need to be in this.

She did say in Avengers that she started in espionage at a really young age. If she's born in 87, I don't think it quite works out, but it's close.

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Old 06-28-2014, 11:12 AM   #7
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Default Re: Heinrich Zemo and Nick Fury Sr need to be in this.

Like I said in one of the other threads SGT. Fury would be easy to replace as tactician in Steve Roger's absence in the Howling Commandos

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Old 06-29-2014, 04:46 AM   #8
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Default Re: Heinrich Zemo and Nick Fury Sr need to be in this.

G'day,

Although I can't see Scarlett Johansson appearing in a TV show anytime soon, especially as she will soon be off having a baby, theres no reason why she couldn't be far older then she appears. She is supposed to be a super spy, so why would you believe anything she says?
I would love to see a solo Black Widow movie were her past would be unraveled revealing her true age and history.

Blavk Widow: Red Room. Soulds like a good title for a movie to me.

ta

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Quote:
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That's only a problem if you, one, assume the MCU follows real life history to the letter, and two, that everyone involved in that conversation was being 100% literal. The first is a terrible assumption, and the second always strikes me as incredibly weird. People in real life don't always speak 100% literally, why would you assume people in movies would?

Given that there *is* evidence that Natasha is, in fact, as old as she seems, the two really easy explanations are:

1. The KGB remained around longer in the MCU than in real life. Maybe the Russians didn't rename their intelligence apparatus after the USSR fell, or maybe the KGB stuck around as a semi-independent operation, with its former employees taking positions in business, government, and crime.

2. The KGB did cease to officially exist when it did historically. If queried on this matter, Natasha would roll her eyes and cynically remark that, in Russian, 'FSB' is pronounced the same as 'KGB'. Its all the same in her eyes, and largely in fact too.

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Old 06-29-2014, 11:14 AM   #9
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Default Re: Heinrich Zemo and Nick Fury Sr need to be in this.

Okay, but nobody has any thoughts on Zemo?

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Old 06-29-2014, 12:39 PM   #10
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Default Re: Heinrich Zemo and Nick Fury Sr need to be in this.

I'm fine with Heinrich Zemo appearing in Agent Carter (although I think Madame Hydra is a better fit) if it's portrayed as remnants of HYDRA that are firmly defeated (obviously, they aren't firmly defeated, but it has to appear that way). Depending on how they play Captain America 3, I could see using flashbacks to have Cap fight him, though. I don't see the need to place him on Agent Carter, but I wouldn't be opposed to it.

I thought Romanoff's DOB was listed as 1987. I could be wrong about that. If it were 85 or 84 it would be easier to make her a KGB Agent. She doesn't have to be older than that since the implication in Avengers is that she started quite young. It's also possible for the KGB to last a little longer than it does in the real world.

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Old 06-29-2014, 03:25 PM   #11
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Default Re: Heinrich Zemo and Nick Fury Sr need to be in this.

In The Winter Soldier, Zola states that Romanoff was born in '84.

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Old 06-29-2014, 03:51 PM   #12
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Default Re: Heinrich Zemo and Nick Fury Sr need to be in this.

-Honestly, I think Zemo would be better off leaving Hydra behind post-WW2, and hiding out in South America like he did in the comics. Then Agent Carter and the fledgling SHIELD could try to track him down, only for him to elude them at every turn. Only save that plot for Season 2, in order to tie into Cap 3.

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Old 06-29-2014, 04:09 PM   #13
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Default Re: Heinrich Zemo and Nick Fury Sr need to be in this.

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In The Winter Soldier, Zola states that Romanoff was born in '84.
OK, I misremembered the year. That's good. I think it just works, timing-wise.

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Old 06-29-2014, 05:25 PM   #14
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Default Re: Heinrich Zemo and Nick Fury Sr need to be in this.

I have zero interest in white fury. He reminds me too much of that "looks like a bad day to give up methanthetamines" guy from airplane!

Zemo would be interesting I guess. Madame hydra would be even more interesting

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Old 06-30-2014, 01:10 AM   #15
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Default Re: Heinrich Zemo and Nick Fury Sr need to be in this.

Careful what you wish for on a Baron Zemo in the MCU, you just might get it, but not the way you want in the classical comic book sense. I'm curious as to why they appear to be taking the old Hydra die-hard leader Baron Wolfgang von Strucker (pending in Avengers 2) and seem to be making him out to be only loosely self-affiliated with Hydra (teaser from CA:TWS), with paper-thin loyalties. Oh well, that will play out after Agent Carter series has been presented, so a version of one of the Baron Zemo's is forever possible, but I have a hunch that this show focus will be mopping up the Zodiac organization, as teased in the AC One-Shot.


My thoughts on good old cigar chomping Director / Colonel Nick Fury Sr.: I personally, would rather that he stay in the comic book 616 timeline. I think he would only take away from what's been established in this 199999 universe, adding virtually nothing but unnecessary confusion for the general audience. Just let them write the history as Dum Dum Duggan being the Howling Commando's leader after Steve Rogers ''death". It's simple and efficient. That history has already been altered and deviated by the path written in CA:TFA with Cap's leadership and Nick Fury's presence only in the modern times.

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Old 08-23-2014, 06:11 AM   #16
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Default Re: Heinrich Zemo and Nick Fury Sr need to be in this.

As shown in Captain America: The Winter Soldier the founders of S.H.I.E.L.D. are Howard Stark, Chester Phillips, and Peggy Carter. That leaves no place for white Nick Fury. If Heinrich Zemo appears in Agent Carter, he should be some die-hard Nazi not affiliated to HYDRA. We already have the Red Skull as a turncoat Nazi who betrays Hitler, now we need some loyal Nazi who wants to establish the Fourth Reich, maybe in South America. The destruction of Zemo's organization should be S.H.I.E.L.D.'s first serious task.

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Old 08-25-2014, 06:38 AM   #17
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Default Re: Heinrich Zemo and Nick Fury Sr need to be in this.

Quote:
-Honestly, I think Zemo would be better off leaving Hydra behind post-WW2, and hiding out in South America like he did in the comics. Then Agent Carter and the fledgling SHIELD could try to track him down, only for him to elude them at every turn. Only save that plot for Season 2, in order to tie into Cap 3.
They could also then show the origins of the Peruvian 084 in AoS. Baron Zemo tries to build it with the help of the Peruvian goverment, and agent Carter stops him, but he escapes, and the 084 is lost in the ruins.

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Old 08-25-2014, 09:31 AM   #18
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Default Re: Heinrich Zemo and Nick Fury Sr need to be in this.

I'd rather the way they did it in A:EMH, with Nick Furys dad being Jack Fury if they were gonna have a Fury in that era

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Old 09-01-2014, 12:02 AM   #19
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Default Re: Heinrich Zemo and Nick Fury Sr need to be in this.

The show is going to deal with the aftermath of WW2. The formation of the UN which in turn forms Shield.
Peggy herself will have to deal with the loss of Steve. Building Shield with Stark. Politics of many countries who don't trust each other and are trying to establish a new world order with America and Russia battling for supremacy, the break up of the British Empire (with new powers trying to rise from the ashes), sexism. All this and then chuck in a few super villains/some with powers.
I just hope they don't dumb it down and treat the audiences with a bit of respect. I know it will be a family show largely aimed at kids. But other series (some of the best like Highlander,Star Trek TNG etc...) manage to do it. Give us characters that we can care about. If your going to throw in someone as a bit of comic relief make sure they are funny but have a reason to be there. Not some cliche of a daffy old scientist. But I'd prefer natural humour. GOT manages some great humour without needing a fool. The situations or lines are what do it. Have tragedy as well, bittersweet moments and a sense of real triumph or loss. These are what AOS missed. No-one felt the betrayal of Ward, they were just relieved that he finally started to get interesting.
If you are going to spend a big budget on a tv series. Make it the best you can. Don't just go through the motions, like a Xena, Hercules.

If we are going to have serums which prolong your life, then introduce a young black soldier named Nick Fury to work for Peggy as part of her team. We might even find out how he lost his eye and came to be head of Shield.


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Old 09-01-2014, 12:39 AM   #20
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Default Re: Heinrich Zemo and Nick Fury Sr need to be in this.

I'd like to see Isaiah Bradley involved

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