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View Poll Results: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...
Love it! 92 36.51%
It's okay... 56 22.22%
Hate it! 104 41.27%
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Old 02-08-2014, 05:55 AM   #376
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 2

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You know, I've always believed that if a writer, be it a comic book writer or a screenwriter or any other kind of writer, doesn't like a particular character, that's perfectly fine. People don't have to like the same things. However, if this is the case, then that particular writer should not use that particular character because they're inevitably going to mess it up and portray the character poorly. Grant Morrison doesn't like Magneto, so he destroys the work that dozens of other writers put into making Magneto a complicated morally-grey character over decades with Planet X. Joss Whedon doesn't like the Punisher, and totally mischaracterized him in his Runaways run. Shane Black, if you don't like the Mandarin, which you made CRYSTAL clear is the case, that's fine. Then use a different villain instead of going out of your way to turn the Mandarin into a joke. I would have respected you more if you would have not used him at all because you don't like him. Also, I completely reject the idea that you can't do the Mandarin without him being racist. Several comic book writers have successfully done this, so that clichéd argument doesn't hold much water.
Morrison likes Magneto, the thing is that he decided to portray the character as he has generally been like, instead of turning him even more into the film's version

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Old 02-08-2014, 10:11 AM   #377
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 2

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You know, I've always believed that if a writer, be it a comic book writer or a screenwriter or any other kind of writer, doesn't like a particular character, that's perfectly fine. People don't have to like the same things. However, if this is the case, then that particular writer should not use that particular character because they're inevitably going to mess it up and portray the character poorly. Grant Morrison doesn't like Magneto, so he destroys the work that dozens of other writers put into making Magneto a complicated morally-grey character over decades with Planet X. Joss Whedon doesn't like the Punisher, and totally mischaracterized him in his Runaways run. Shane Black, if you don't like the Mandarin, which you made CRYSTAL clear is the case, that's fine. Then use a different villain instead of going out of your way to turn the Mandarin into a joke. I would have respected you more if you would have not used him at all because you don't like him. Also, I completely reject the idea that you can't do the Mandarin without him being racist. Several comic book writers have successfully done this, so that clichéd argument doesn't hold much water.
I think it's kind of lame to accuse a writer of disliking a character simply because you don't like the way they wrote that character. It is not crystal clear that Shane Black inherently dislikes The Mandarin. The only thing that's crystal clear is that he decided to do something different with the concept.

Also, I don't really see how those two examples fit. The Mandarin wasn't mischaracterized in Iron Man 3, they just changed his aesthetic and added a layer of misdirection to his true identity. His general personality and M.O. was intact.

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Old 02-08-2014, 01:25 PM   #378
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 2

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Also, I don't really see how those two examples fit. The Mandarin wasn't mischaracterized in Iron Man 3, they just changed his aesthetic and added a layer of misdirection to his true identity. His general personality and M.O. was intact.
Funny how some fans don't understand this or won't admit it.

Killian WAS the Mandarin in the MCU, despite what this fan-servicing short film says -- a short film that a majority of the general audience will never see.

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Old 02-08-2014, 01:38 PM   #379
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 2

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Funny how some fans don't understand this or won't admit it.

Killian WAS the Mandarin in the MCU, despite what this fan-servicing short film says -- a short film that a majority of the general audience will never see.
My..god. People. Open your eyes. Deception

Killian WAS past tense, WAS the Mandarin in Iron man 3. What was Iron man 3?

It wasn't a live time of events like all other MCU films. Did no one understand the significance of the after credit scene?

Iron man 3 was a recollection of events by Tony Stark in a therapy session. Which means, he's unstable. Things probably REALLY didn't go down this way.

They set the stage by deceiving us. This was always the intent. The Mandarin deceived everyone.

Expect to see him in Age of Ultron, I do.

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Old 02-08-2014, 01:45 PM   #380
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 2

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My..god. People. Open your eyes. Deception

Killian WAS past tense, WAS the Mandarin in Iron man 3. What was Iron man 3?

It wasn't a live time of events like all other MCU films. Did no one understand the significance of the after credit scene?

Iron man 3 was a recollection of events by Tony Stark in a therapy session. Which means, he's unstable. Things probably REALLY didn't go down this way.

They set the stage by deceiving us. This was always the intent. The Mandarin deceived everyone.

Expect to see him in Age of Ultron, I do.
Lay off the LSD, dude.

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Old 02-08-2014, 03:50 PM   #381
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 2

I think that is reading way too much into that after the credits scene, dude. Honestly, we likely won't see the Mandarin for a long, long time. So, for all intent and purposes, Killian is still the Mandarin to me until they opt to use a new version of him. The after the credits scene was a cute scene that showed who Stark was talking to, since IM3 was basically 1 long flashback. It will end up being nothing more than that.

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Old 02-09-2014, 10:14 PM   #382
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 2

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I think it's kind of lame to accuse a writer of disliking a character simply because you don't like the way they wrote that character. It is not crystal clear that Shane Black inherently dislikes The Mandarin. The only thing that's crystal clear is that he decided to do something different with the concept.

Also, I don't really see how those two examples fit. The Mandarin wasn't mischaracterized in Iron Man 3, they just changed his aesthetic and added a layer of misdirection to his true identity. His general personality and M.O. was intact.
He called the Mandarin a "racist stereotype." Yes, that's pretty clear dislike of the character. And "doing something different" only works if what you do differently is better than the original which this wasn't. Kingsley was a much better villain when he was faking it than Killian was when he was ACTUALLY the villain. Killian was another generic rival businessman in a suit, only not a interesting as the two from the previous TWO movies.

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Old 02-09-2014, 10:15 PM   #383
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 2

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Funny how some fans don't understand this or won't admit it.

Killian WAS the Mandarin in the MCU, despite what this fan-servicing short film says -- a short film that a majority of the general audience will never see.
No, I'm saying that Killian was nowhere near as effective a villain as fake Mandarin was, simple as that. The twist doesn't work because the actual villain is pretty boring.

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Old 02-10-2014, 05:22 AM   #384
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 2

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He called the Mandarin a "racist stereotype." Yes, that's pretty clear dislike of the character.
But The Mandarin is a racist stereotype. That's really not debatable. Long haired robe wearing super villain who rambles on about Genghis Khan and has vaguely defined "Chi" abilities. It's not biased to call the sky blue.

And it is possible to genuinely enjoy something that has problems, so calling The Mandarin racist isn't a clear indication of dislike. I like The Mandarin and I think The Mandarin is mind destroyingly racist. That's why I liked the twist in Iron Man 3. It kept most of the things I liked about the character, and not only did it take out the racist parts, it actually commented on them in a smart way.

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And "doing something different" only works if what you do differently is better than the original which this wasn't.
It absolutely was. It gave us a villain who is a much more interesting character than The Mandarin of the comics has ever been, it gave us a story and a central conflict that actually has meaning and ties into and reinforces the main themes of the story in a way a straight adaptation of The Mandarin never would have, and it creates a very clear foil for the hero that we wouldn't have gotten otherwise. From a thematic and narrative standpoint, it was a vast improvement.

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Kingsley was a much better villain when he was faking it than Killian was when he was ACTUALLY the villain. Killian was another generic rival businessman in a suit, only not a interesting as the two from the previous TWO movies.
In what way was Kingsley a better villain? Kingsley!Mandarin didn't have a backstory, or really much of a personality, or really even did anything that wasn't revealed to have been actually done by Killian. He gave probably a more entertaining performance, but that does not a better villain make.

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Old 02-10-2014, 06:37 AM   #385
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 2

To be fair, the idea for Kingsley/ Mandarin did seem kind of interesting, a super terrorist trying to show the world there are no heroes and making heroes like Tony face reality, it could have even made the viewer question who are the good guys, with the Mandarin showing many unnecessary acts of violence done by the American Government.

That said, i have come to like the twist, and the Mandarin is indeed a very racist character in his inception.

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Old 02-10-2014, 07:46 AM   #386
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 2

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My..god. People. Open your eyes. Deception

Killian WAS past tense, WAS the Mandarin in Iron man 3. What was Iron man 3?

It wasn't a live time of events like all other MCU films. Did no one understand the significance of the after credit scene?

Iron man 3 was a recollection of events by Tony Stark in a therapy session. Which means, he's unstable. Things probably REALLY didn't go down this way.

They set the stage by deceiving us. This was always the intent. The Mandarin deceived everyone.

Expect to see him in Age of Ultron, I do.
I've said this from the start, although I don't have much hope that the writers are thinking this deeply about it.

Every Tony Stark voice over in the film from "Someone once said, we create our own demons" to the end credits scene is him recounting events to Banner.

I was actually hoping for a scene somewhere along the line where Tony wakes up in bed and goes, "Wow...weird...."

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Old 02-10-2014, 08:51 AM   #387
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 2

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My..god. People. Open your eyes. Deception

Killian WAS past tense, WAS the Mandarin in Iron man 3. What was Iron man 3?

It wasn't a live time of events like all other MCU films. Did no one understand the significance of the after credit scene?

Iron man 3 was a recollection of events by Tony Stark in a therapy session. Which means, he's unstable. Things probably REALLY didn't go down this way.

They set the stage by deceiving us. This was always the intent. The Mandarin deceived everyone.

Expect to see him in Age of Ultron, I do.
Wow, this is all a bunch of nonsense.

For starters, Tony wasn't in a therapy session. Banner isn't a therapist, he's a nuclear physicist who also has training in biology. It wasn't therapy, it was just Tony unloading all of that baggage onto his friend.

Second, even if it were a therapy session, you're still making a huge leap in logic. There is no indication that events didn't happen the way Tony described them. There is absolutely no hint of that. Telling someone, be they your friend or your therapist, about this super ****** thing that happened to you and all of the stuff it made you think about, is not an indication that you're account is unreliable. Not at all. Jeez.

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Old 02-10-2014, 11:01 AM   #388
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 2

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Lay off the LSD, dude.
Don't do drugs. Thanks for the inaccurate judgement though.

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I think that is reading way too much into that after the credits scene, dude. Honestly, we likely won't see the Mandarin for a long, long time. So, for all intent and purposes, Killian is still the Mandarin to me until they opt to use a new version of him. The after the credits scene was a cute scene that showed who Stark was talking to, since IM3 was basically 1 long flashback. It will end up being nothing more than that.
I suppose we shall see. But I think there is more to that after credit scene.

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Old 02-10-2014, 11:30 AM   #389
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Nope, you're just wrong. You can argue your interpretation till you're blue in the face. But you're wrong. Killian is not The Mandarin. Was not. Never was.
Oh hey, I missed this the first time around. Yeah, if you're not actually going to address my argument, then you have absolutely no right to declare that I'm "just wrong." This isn't a situation where things are that self evident, there is room for interpretation when talking about a movie, and you're only hurting yourself and your own position by making yourself sound close-minded and insecure about what you're saying.

So please, do everyone a favor, and either start actually reading the posts you're going to respond to and comment on the arguments people are making, or stop ****ing responding to them. It's a pretty basic concept, man. Either actually read and respond, or don't respond at all. That's not much, it's just basic human decency.

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Old 02-10-2014, 11:56 AM   #390
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 2

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Old 02-10-2014, 01:08 PM   #391
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 2

Wait...

Does the one shot reveal The Mandarin to be real? I havent watched it yet.

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Old 02-10-2014, 01:24 PM   #392
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 2

Yeah. So now, it goes:

Kingsley who was the Mandarin is not The Mandarin, which was revealed to be Aldrich Killian, who is no longer The Mandarin, and that there is an entirely different Mandarin out there now.

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Old 02-10-2014, 01:55 PM   #393
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Yeah. So now, it goes:

Kingsley who was the Mandarin is not The Mandarin, which was revealed to be Aldrich Killian, who is no longer The Mandarin, and that there is an entirely different Mandarin out there now.
That's disappointing.

The GA didn't care and it's their vote that matters most.

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Old 02-10-2014, 01:56 PM   #394
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Wow, this is all a bunch of nonsense.

For starters, Tony wasn't in a therapy session. Banner isn't a therapist, he's a nuclear physicist who also has training in biology. It wasn't therapy, it was just Tony unloading all of that baggage onto his friend.

Second, even if it were a therapy session, you're still making a huge leap in logic. There is no indication that events didn't happen the way Tony described them. There is absolutely no hint of that. Telling someone, be they your friend or your therapist, about this super ****** thing that happened to you and all of the stuff it made you think about, is not an indication that you're account is unreliable. Not at all. Jeez.
lol fair enough. But the movie was a recollection of events.

Again, we'll see

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Old 02-10-2014, 01:57 PM   #395
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 2

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That's disappointing.

The GA didn't care and it's their vote that matters most.
Lots of people got to be angry about it on the internet so it isn't a total loss.

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Old 02-10-2014, 02:53 PM   #396
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Lots of people got to be angry about it on the internet so it isn't a total loss.
Again, it was probably the intention all along.

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Old 02-11-2014, 02:47 AM   #397
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 2

I don't think it was the intention all along.

If IM3 stated that The Mandarin was something Killain made up then why are they changing it?

The mind boggles.

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Old 02-11-2014, 03:07 PM   #398
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 2

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He called the Mandarin a "racist stereotype." Yes, that's pretty clear dislike of the character. And "doing something different" only works if what you do differently is better than the original which this wasn't. Kingsley was a much better villain when he was faking it than Killian was when he was ACTUALLY the villain. Killian was another generic rival businessman in a suit, only not a interesting as the two from the previous TWO movies.

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Old 02-11-2014, 03:13 PM   #399
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But The Mandarin is a racist stereotype. That's really not debatable. Long haired robe wearing super villain who rambles on about Genghis Khan and has vaguely defined "Chi" abilities. It's not biased to call the sky blue.

And it is possible to genuinely enjoy something that has problems, so calling The Mandarin racist isn't a clear indication of dislike. I like The Mandarin and I think The Mandarin is mind destroyingly racist. That's why I liked the twist in Iron Man 3. It kept most of the things I liked about the character, and not only did it take out the racist parts, it actually commented on them in a smart way.
So,The Mandarin can't be Asian,bearded,long haired or robed without being racist? What does the term "Mandarin" have in common with a pasty faced, suit wearing, rich guy?

Oh,yeah.Dragon tattoos,and generic martial arts moves that are mandated for every character in action movies since the late 90's.

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Old 02-11-2014, 03:46 PM   #400
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 2

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I don't think it was the intention all along.

If IM3 stated that The Mandarin was something Killain made up then why are they changing it?

The mind boggles.
Thankfully IM3 didn't state that so there was no change.

Plus the IM3 prelude comics that came out before the movie did established that The Mandarinis a real person and is the head ofthe Ten Rings.

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