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Old 09-23-2013, 04:02 PM   #51
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Default Re: Female Superheores On Screen

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Originally Posted by Kahran Ramsus View Post
And you are clearly wrong about that. She was not saved repeatedly and exclusively. She killed at least three people in the film. She tries to avoid fights when possible, but many superheros do. She fights and wins when necessary.
Superheroes avoid fights to do the right thing, not just to survive. The reasons Wonder Woman doesn't fight random people she encounters are the complete opposite of why Katniss does. She was saved repeatedly: Rue, Big Guy, and even scrub Peetah during the final fight. But you are right on one point, it was not exclusive, she did kill the guy who killed Rue on her own, so that was superheroic, I guess. Good thing for her that it wasn't a fight. Who else did she kill, by the way?

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Others have talked about the other points, so I see no need in going over them again, but this is just flat out wrong. IMDB, Rotten Tomatoes, Amazon, Best Buy, Wikipedia, Metacritic, The Broadcast Film Critics Association, and more all classify it as action/adventure.
Do they now?

IMDB - Adventure Sci-fi Thriller
Rotten Tomatoes - Mystery & Suspense, Science Fiction & Fantasy
Amazon - Adventure, Fantasy, Sci-fi
Wikipedia - Science Fiction Adventure film

On and on and on. There are some sites who use "action," or "action adventure" as a broad category that includes Harry Potter and Castaway and other movies with some action or are simply adventures. So you're right on that. This, however, does not support the idea that Katniss is an action heroine any more than say, Hermoine Granger or Rosamund Pike in The World's End.

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Old 09-23-2013, 05:57 PM   #52
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Default Re: Female Superheores On Screen

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Superheroes avoid fights to do the right thing, not just to survive. The reasons Wonder Woman doesn't fight random people she encounters are the complete opposite of why Katniss does. She was saved repeatedly: Rue, Big Guy, and even scrub Peetah during the final fight. But you are right on one point, it was not exclusive, she did kill the guy who killed Rue on her own, so that was superheroic, I guess. Good thing for her that it wasn't a fight. Who else did she kill, by the way?
The blonde that had the arrows.

That's two more people than Rambo killed in First Blood (and the one he did kill was an accident) one of the defining action films of the 80s.

The one time that Katniss was shown as vulnerable was when she was injured and cornered in a tree. That's not unusual for action heros. You see a similar thing happen to The Man with No Name in each film of the Dollars Trilogy, for example. For most of the film, she is the strong, stoic one. Peeta and Rue are the vulnerable, emotional ones.

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Do they now?
IMDB - Adventure | Sci-Fi | Thriller
Metacritic - Action, Adventure, Sci-Fi, Drama, Thriller
Best Buy Action and Adventure, Sci-Fi
Amazon Fantasy, Science Fiction, Action & Adventure
Wikipedia Science Fiction, Adventure

Okay, this one was actually the sequel, but it still fits.

Rotten Tomatoes Action & Adventure, Science Fiction & Fantasy

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This, however, does not support the idea that Katniss is an action heroine any more than say, Hermoine Granger or Rosamund Pike in The World's End.
I didn't see The World's End, but Hermione Granger is definitely not a lead action heroine. She's a supporting character and more specifically is valued more for her mind than her fighting abilities. Harry Potter is the lead in those films, and yes I would agree that the later films (probably the fourth one on and definitely the last three) are proper action/adventure films.

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Old 09-23-2013, 06:06 PM   #53
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And that speaks to what Dr. Cosmic was trying to imply about good heroes (read: "male") being take-charge kind of guys: "All action heroes initiate and win fights on their own." Except for the fact that Bond, like a huge number of male heroes, is only following orders, *not* "initiating fights"; and McClane, like a huge number of male heroes, is merely reacting to unwanted and dangerous situations he is continuously forced into, *not* "initiating fights."

And in some ways, Katniss *does* have more initiative than James Bond or John McClane or any other number of male heroes or superheroes, in that she *does* take charge of the situations she is placed in. *She* steps up to take her sister's place in tribute; *she* works hard to become the most formidable competitor in training; *she* takes charge of her own image during the pre-Game interviews; *she* rallies the people to her cause; *she* takes charge on the battlefield.

Really, I'm thinking that Dr. Cosmic saw a different movie. None of his complaints about THG are adding up.
What complaint have I made about THG? Please be specific. (hint: you won't find any, I love THG).

If that's what I was trying to imply, why would I explicitly say that she was not any less of a hero, and that she was a symbol for her people? Are my points so strong that you have make up contradictory implications instead of dealing with the plain facts laid out? Is my argument really *that* good???

So since what you're saying about what I'm saying is clearly false, can you at least support this idea that following orders somehow undoes someone starting a fight... especially when that person gets in trouble for starting it and the associated property destruction accompanied.

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Old 09-23-2013, 06:17 PM   #54
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The blonde that had the arrows.

That's two more people than Rambo killed in First Blood (and the one he did kill was an accident) one of the defining action films of the 80s.

The one time that Katniss was shown as vulnerable was when she was injured and cornered in a tree. That's not unusual for action heros. You see a similar thing happen to The Man with No Name in each film of the Dollars Trilogy, for example. For most of the film, she is the strong, stoic one. Peeta and Rue are the vulnerable, emotional ones.
The one she killed with the Beehive? The beehive Rue showed her? Dude... this is not action heroine. And while the movies I named don't have female leads, if we don't call them supporting action heroines, then why would we call Katniss a lead action heroine?

And it's entirely possible that extremely vulnerable can't-just-win-a-fight heroes were very popular in the 80s action movies, I haven't seen many 80s movies, so if that's your point, good on ya. But that's not how it is now.

Katniss was vulnerable virtually the entire film. From the cornocopia, even when faced head on with Foxfire, Katniss was running scared of everything and everyone - and for good reason, she was a non-threat without a bow and range. The only time she was strong was when she was with Rue and Peetah and they were relatively safe. Her power came from being a protector, she still wasn't much of a threat in combat, and she still knew it, but with those relationships motivating her, she got the two shots in that counted. One for revenge, one to save Peetah.

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IMDB - Adventure | Sci-Fi | Thriller
Metacritic - Action, Adventure, Sci-Fi, Drama, Thriller
Best Buy Action and Adventure, Sci-Fi
Amazon Fantasy, Science Fiction, Action & Adventure
Wikipedia Science Fiction, Adventure

Okay, this one was actually the sequel, but it still fits.

Rotten Tomatoes Action & Adventure, Science Fiction & Fantasy



I didn't see The World's End, but Hermione Granger is definitely not a lead action heroine. She's a supporting character and more specifically is valued more for her mind than her fighting abilities. Harry Potter is the lead in those films, and yes I would agree that the later films (probably the fourth one on and definitely the last three) are proper action/adventure films.

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Old 09-23-2013, 07:36 PM   #55
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You'll probably get a Black Widow movie before Wonder Woman
And that's a good thing.

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Old 09-23-2013, 07:41 PM   #56
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I'm all for female superheroes, but as long as they're an original product and not kjust female versions of male superheroes. I just hate Supergirl, Spider-woman, She-Hulk. But I'm all for Wonder Woman, Black Widow, etc.

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Old 09-23-2013, 08:11 PM   #57
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Default Re: Female Superheores On Screen

Spider-Woman isn't anything like Spider-Man beyond the name. Spider-Girl is the female counterpart of Spider-Man.

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Old 09-23-2013, 08:11 PM   #58
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I'm all for female superheroes, but as long as they're an original product and not kjust female versions of male superheroes. I just hate Supergirl, Spider-woman, She-Hulk. But I'm all for Wonder Woman, Black Widow, etc.
I feel the same way. Spider-Woman and She-Hulk were created by Stan Lee purely for legal reasons (to protect Marvel's copyright on the male heroes) and it shows in the characters' weird histories. Spider-Woman in particular is a mess of a character. The current (Ms.) Captain Marvel falls into the same category, which is one of many reasons I prefer Monica Rambeau to Carol Danvers. Monica at least has her own unique origin and powers that do not derive from a male superhero who preceded her. Originals are always preferable to knock-offs.

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Old 09-23-2013, 09:07 PM   #59
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Spider Woman has NOTHING in common with Spider Man besides having the world "spider" in their name. Carol is also VERY different from the original Capt. Marvel, and she's much more interesting than him. Supergirl is another Kryptonian, its stupid to assume that EVERY Kryptonian died except for Superman. People don't accuse Zod of being a knockoff do they?

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Old 09-23-2013, 09:11 PM   #60
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The one she killed with the Beehive? The beehive Rue showed her? Dude... this is not action heroine. And while the movies I named don't have female leads, if we don't call them supporting action heroines, then why would we call Katniss a lead action heroine?

And it's entirely possible that extremely vulnerable can't-just-win-a-fight heroes were very popular in the 80s action movies, I haven't seen many 80s movies, so if that's your point, good on ya. But that's not how it is now.

Katniss was vulnerable virtually the entire film. From the cornocopia, even when faced head on with Foxfire, Katniss was running scared of everything and everyone - and for good reason, she was a non-threat without a bow and range. The only time she was strong was when she was with Rue and Peetah and they were relatively safe. Her power came from being a protector, she still wasn't much of a threat in combat, and she still knew it, but with those relationships motivating her, she got the two shots in that counted. One for revenge, one to save Peetah.
Oh my god, another character showed her something that she later used as a weapon? Was SHE the one who USED it to KILL? If she did, then it doesn't matter how she found. Sorry, but you clearly saw a very different film than the rest of us did, or your just deliberately ignoring the facts, since you clearly think that female superhero films can never work. Arguing that Katniss wasn't an action heroine is just laughably absurd. Also, there's MORE THAN ONE kind of action hero.

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Old 09-23-2013, 09:35 PM   #61
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Whatever the exact merits of the Hunger Games, I think DrCosmic makes a compelling, if depressing, case for the status of female-led action movies in Hollywood. Which is to say, what the hell does it say about us, as a society, that success is directly proportional to how much the protagonist gets to be helpless?

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Old 09-23-2013, 09:38 PM   #62
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Default Re: Female Superheores On Screen

The same can be said for male heroes though so I don't get the point....

Spider-man gets his ass kicked each and every film
Batman and Iron man both rely on armor to stop from being basic humans and they are the two biggest franchises right now.

Again what's the point.

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Old 09-24-2013, 05:30 AM   #63
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The same can be said for male heroes though so I don't get the point....

Spider-man gets his ass kicked each and every film
Batman and Iron man both rely on armor to stop from being basic humans and they are the two biggest franchises right now.

Again what's the point.
The point is that Spider-Man, Iron Man and Batman have one thing in common: the word "man" in their names. Male characters are allowed to be vulnerable and to rely technology and other people for assistance. That just proves that they can adapt to circumstances, which makes them stronger in the eyes of the audience. When female characters do the same thing they are considered "helpless" and "weak".

What does that set of assumptions say about us, as a society?

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Old 09-24-2013, 07:47 AM   #64
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Default Re: Female Superheores On Screen

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The point is that Spider-Man, Iron Man and Batman have one thing in common: the word "man" in their names. Male characters are allowed to be vulnerable and to rely technology and other people for assistance. That just proves that they can adapt to circumstances, which makes them stronger in the eyes of the audience. When female characters do the same thing they are considered "helpless" and "weak".

What does that set of assumptions say about us, as a society?

It says that I don't agree with "society" about this subject. At all.

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Old 09-24-2013, 11:02 AM   #65
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Oh my god, another character showed her something that she later used as a weapon? Was SHE the one who USED it to KILL? If she did, then it doesn't matter how she found. Sorry, but you clearly saw a very different film than the rest of us did, or your just deliberately ignoring the facts, since you clearly think that female superhero films can never work. Arguing that Katniss wasn't an action heroine is just laughably absurd. Also, there's MORE THAN ONE kind of action hero.
Your point requires classifying a beehive as a weapon. Just fyi. Part of my statement of facts were that she needed help to win any fight, not just occasional help, but the vast majority of the time, unlike superheroes. Rue helping her beat those guys supports that, if you choose to call that a fight. So what facts am I ignoring?

Now, that we have the facts down, lets get back to feelings, which is what you're talking about. What have I said that made you feel as though I think female superhero films can never work? I certainly never said that, nor do I believe that, so be specific about your issue, because clearly I support female superhero films, and post my ideas for them in every such thread. You have an issue with the idea that Katniss isn't proof superheroine films would be popular? So if Katniss isn't proof, then female superhero films can never work? Is that your point? Because that's not mine. You're on your own on that one.


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The same can be said for male heroes though so I don't get the point....

Spider-man gets his ass kicked each and every film
Batman and Iron man both rely on armor to stop from being basic humans and they are the two biggest franchises right now.

Again what's the point.
The point is degree of vulnerability and extended periods of invulnerability. Spider-Man also kicks mass amounts of arse, all on his own, in each and every film, multiple times, even in the final battle. The most popular heroines do not, unpopular ones do. Batman and Iron man rely on self-built armor they are enclosed in, but popular heroines rely on their loved ones (or soon to be loved ones), which they are often separated from to some degree.

So the level of dependence on others is greater, and there's no scenes of walking in and ransacking enemies like male superheroes have. Again, these are for the most popular ones, less popular heroines are very superheroic in terms of action.

So saying "well, Iron Man shoots people and Katniss shoots people, so what's the difference" is extremly simplistic to the point of uselessness.

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The point is that Spider-Man, Iron Man and Batman have one thing in common: the word "man" in their names. Male characters are allowed to be vulnerable and to rely technology and other people for assistance. That just proves that they can adapt to circumstances, which makes them stronger in the eyes of the audience. When female characters do the same thing they are considered "helpless" and "weak".

What does that set of assumptions say about us, as a society?
You've got it backwards. In TDK3 and IM3, these heroes did the kind of running and hiding popular heroines do, and they got criticism for it "not enough ___man" - it didn't make them much less successful though. But when a heroine does that amount of running and hiding, she's called the next great action heroine, by those same people. The women are not considered helpless and weak, they are considered strong and popular, and men when they endure those things are considered helpless and weak.

So what does that set of assumptions say about us as a society?

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Whatever the exact merits of the Hunger Games, I think DrCosmic makes a compelling, if depressing, case for the status of female-led action movies in Hollywood. Which is to say, what the hell does it say about us, as a society, that success is directly proportional to how much the protagonist gets to be helpless?
THANK YOU! Someone got past "what is he trying to say" and actually read what was being explicitly said. Thank you, sir. I thought I was going crazy.

I think it ties into the feeling of vulnerability that women experience in real life. Because that, especially physical vulnerability, is such a big part of life, when it's not reflected in story, then it doesn't work. The other issue is that women generally don't have the same kind of power fantasies that men have, so male power fantasies applied to women don't have the same effect. People say, even in the link in the OP, "well, a hot babe kicking arse will sell" but history has shown that to not be true. That's just not two hours worth of fantasy, plain and simple.

And people get this. When you look at Wonder Woman, at her current popular comic, she's not a superhero in the sense that she kicks butt and takes names and saves the city and rescues the people. She's very much in a horror-type storyline, where she is the clear and far underdog, and it's all she can do to protect her young charge from these monstrous gods. She gets taken to hell, she has male companions that are every bit her equal, she can't fight back in most of her problems, but she wins with relationships and resourcefulness. She's not 'weak,' but the frame of the storyline is not at all like a male superhero's. Is that depressing? No, it's just more difficult. The Wonder Woman DTV does show her kicking butt against Deimos, to be sure, but a big plot point is her getting saved by her supposed to be vastly inferior man who still somehow fights side by side with Wonder Woman, and then she defeats Ares with resourcefulness, using his own attack against him, not martial skill or her powers, because she can't. She is hopelessly hilariously outclassed in those areas and spends most of the last fight getting beat down. Speaking of, Black Widow defeats her friend, and gets to do a much more agile much more exhausting ground fight, but much of her development is her completely justifiable, but not shared by anyone else TERROR of Hulk, and her ultimate contribution is using the bad guys weapon against them. Was she weak, though? Or just vulnerable? I haven't read Donnick's Ms. Marvel much, but from what I've seen its more of the same.

Being strong in that vulnerability is what makes real life women incredible, so that same strength in vulnerability is what makes fictional women compelling and interesting and popular. It makes them relatable to the women, and more than just a kinky fantasy for the men.

Does that make sense? Is that still depressing? Because in my mind, it creates an incredible opportunity, especially for Carol Danvers.

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I feel the same way. Spider-Woman and She-Hulk were created by Stan Lee purely for legal reasons (to protect Marvel's copyright on the male heroes) and it shows in the characters' weird histories. Spider-Woman in particular is a mess of a character. The current (Ms.) Captain Marvel falls into the same category, which is one of many reasons I prefer Monica Rambeau to Carol Danvers. Monica at least has her own unique origin and powers that do not derive from a male superhero who preceded her. Originals are always preferable to knock-offs.
Yes, yes, yes. I love Monica. So awesome. So epic.

Spider-Woman and Ms. Marvel are especially redeemable though, I wouldn't count them out.

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Old 09-24-2013, 06:17 PM   #66
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I still categorize it as "depressing", because it glorifies vulnerability in a way that is almost certainly not healthy. One should not aspire to be weak and helpless, because relying on someone else to save you means you can't *be* that someone else.

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Old 09-24-2013, 06:22 PM   #67
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The Hunger Games proves that a female lead action film can do gangbusters. It just has to be good.
Bingo.

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Old 09-24-2013, 06:30 PM   #68
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Spider-Woman and Ms. Marvel are especially redeemable though, I wouldn't count them out.
Indeed, plus one thing about Spider-Woman is that except for her name, she is not really derivative of Parker...her origin and powers are totally separate, she didn't get her powers from him and she is not related to him in any way. It's totally feasible to believe if Parker never got his powers, she would have existed pretty much as is in that reality anyway because her just name fits her.

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Old 09-24-2013, 07:04 PM   #69
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Indeed, plus one thing about Spider-Woman is that except for her name, she is not really derivative of Parker...her origin and powers are totally separate, she didn't get her powers from him and she is not related to him in any way. It's totally feasible to believe if Parker never got his powers, she would have existed pretty much as is in that reality anyway because her just name fits her.
This is true. Unfortunately, her name very much is derivative and would naturally be perceived that way. If I were making such a film, I would call it "Arachne" a seldom used codename for Jessica Drew from the comics.

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I still categorize it as "depressing", because it glorifies vulnerability in a way that is almost certainly not healthy. One should not aspire to be weak and helpless, because relying on someone else to save you means you can't *be* that someone else.
It's not glorifying it, any more than giving characters any other real life problem is glorifying that problem, and it's certainly no more unhealthy than glorifying violence at any rate. And these characters *do* save people as well. They are heroes, not usually heroes through violence, but Peetah, Katniss's sister, Newt, John Connor, etc... they were saved by the female heroes. I would argue that it's far healthier to teach people to be resourceful and rely on their relationships than to beat their enemies to death with brute force. The absence of the male power fantasy in popular female heroines is a good thing, imho. That's why I'm excited about the prospect of a AAA Captain Marvel film. I'm sorry if it's still depressing for you though, that was not my ultimate goal.

Edit: Except Kill Bill. That definitely glorified the vulnerability. Not healthy.

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Old 09-30-2013, 08:28 PM   #70
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Actress Natalie Portman has said that feminism is about more than being 'kick-ass'. She thinks that's 'not feminist, that's macho'.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_4017603.html

I understand some of her points, which seem to fit with the Futurist Feminist manifesto where women should capitalize on their social station and birthing abilities. I wasn't impressed by Angelina Jolie's performance in Tomb Raider, because she acts like ice queen, not a stoical heroine. (Don't cast her as Emeraldas!)

But if we never get to see women wield super power in a fist fight, aren't we just keeping them back under the glass ceiling?

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Old 09-30-2013, 08:43 PM   #71
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Back in 2010 my two favorite heroines were Lt. Alice Malvin from "Pumpkin Scissors" and Lisbeth Salander from the "Millenium" trilogy.

I liked Lt. Alice Malvin because she was doing what heroes haven't been seen doing before - helping the victims of war and stopping the aggravation of war crimes - i.e. stopping further oppression of victims of war, stealing from them, further antagonizing the conflict. She was a noble woman who joined the military because she wanted to fight for country. As old-fashioned as it sounded, she really did it to help the people, not enforce the status quo. In the last episode she fought to end an uprising between some peasants and a group of nobility who were getting fat on dinner. Despite the how righteous the peasants' grievance was she wouldn't allow them to touch the nobleman they blamed. Why? Her sisters - who never supported her joining the military - said that's the burden of being a true noble: you can't be on anyone's side. You fight for what's right for everybody, and nobody is above is the law. She was at times brazen and naive. But she can also hold herself with a sense of composure that was graceful and compassionate. That is lacking in many action heroines in film.

I loved Lisbeth Salander because she didn't take crap from anybody. Society failed her but she refused to be beaten by it. She lived by her own sense of justice and she didn't care about preaching it to the world. It was refreshing because most 'kick ass' heroines don't have the background she had. There were strong reasons for her cynicism. If I were to write such a character in a superhero comics I would also portray civilization being blind and ignorant to how bad things are in society. In comics there's an attitude that what we've got isn't perfect but it's good enough and worth defending. I wouldn't take that attitude with a character like Salander.

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The swordsmanship's first achievement is the unity of man and sword. Once this unity is attained even a blade of grass can be a weapon.

The second achievement is when the sword exists in one's heart. When absent from one's hand one can strike an enemy at paces
even with bare hands.

Swordsmanship's ultimate achievement is the absence of the sword in both hand and heart. The swordsman is at peace with the rest of the world. He vows not to kill.
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Old 09-30-2013, 09:36 PM   #72
BATZARRO WWD
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Default Re: Female Superheores On Screen

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kahran Ramsus View Post
The Hunger Games proves that a female lead action film can do gangbusters. It just has to be good.
I hate how this has to be constantly proven. But then,that's the way they see it. If one movie where the lead has a hat is a success, they'll say people want hats. After a few bad movies with hats fail, they'll say the trend is ended.

I think She Hulk could carry a movie.. Something smaller and less involved in the Avengers hypestorm. I'd nominate Joss Whedon to direct, but...

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Old 09-30-2013, 09:42 PM   #73
Hypestyle
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Default Re: Female Superheores On Screen

bring in Monica Rambeau as a coast guard officer in some future film. It's a good way to start for her future self.

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Old 09-30-2013, 10:10 PM   #74
Project862006
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Default Re: Female Superheores On Screen

hate this hunger games did it excuse hunger games would of made money no matter what

it didn't make money because of a female lead it made money due to being adapted off hugely popular young adult novels


Last edited by Project862006; 10-01-2013 at 12:58 AM.
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Old 10-01-2013, 12:29 AM   #75
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Default Re: Female Superheores On Screen

I'd argue that the only two options are Ms. Marvel and Black Widow. She-Hulk should be introduced in a Hulk sequel while Scarlet Witch has never had her own series and merely alternated between the Avengers and X-Men.

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