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Old 10-01-2013, 10:45 AM   #76
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Default Re: Female Superheores On Screen

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hate this hunger games did it excuse hunger games would of made money no matter what

it didn't make money because of a female lead it made money due to being adapted off hugely popular young adult novels
And yet if it had bombed, you can be sure that many people would have used it as proof that audiences won't except a female lead in an action movie, so there's a gigantic double standard. The series had a female lead, Jennifer Lawrence was the focus of most of the marketing, they were selling the movie to people using her name/face. So young adult adaptations always succeed, really. How did Mortal Instruments, or the Golden Compass, or Beautiful Creatures do, not well.

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Old 10-01-2013, 03:19 PM   #77
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Yay! I didn't kill the thread!

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Actress Natalie Portman has said that feminism is about more than being 'kick-ass'. She thinks that's 'not feminist, that's macho'.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/30/natalie-portman-tom-hiddleston-elle-uk_n_4017603.html

I understand some of her points, which seem to fit with the Futurist Feminist manifesto where women should capitalize on their social station and birthing abilities. I wasn't impressed by Angelina Jolie's performance in Tomb Raider, because she acts like ice queen, not a stoical heroine. (Don't cast her as Emeraldas!)

But if we never get to see women wield super power in a fist fight, aren't we just keeping them back under the glass ceiling?
I think there's a difference between being kick ass and actually kicking ass. The strong female characters that are popular definitely kick ass, they just don't do it from a position of power as a badarse action powerhouse. There is room for badarse action powerhouse women, but like badarse action powerhouse old men and badarse action powerhouse puppy dogs, we have to acknowledge that these may not necessarily be popular artistic choices. That in itself shouldn't surprise us if the main goal is social activism rather than entertainment.

This doesn't mean that we won't see women in such fist fights, but I think it will probably be from either a vulnerable or unpopular position. Columbiana is a great example of the former, Haywire of the latter.

This is why I think Captain Marvel is an ideal female solo franchise. It has a built in "Mr. Smith" who you can kill at the end, at which point Carol has balanced all her badarse action powerhouseness with relatable feminine vulnerability, so when she starts laying the smackdown in Avengers, everyone understands she's not just "an ice queen" or a typical macho superhero with breasts, but she's actually every bit as layered and conflicted as Katniss or any other female hero. Her vulnerability in Avengers is expressed in her emulation, her desire to be 'one of the guys' (which here includes Black Widow) which is well meaning but misplaced, emulating her comic book motivations of trying to be a worthy superhero. Giving her a bit of fangirl flavor also makes her instantly relatable and vulnerable and distances her from everyone.

That might be too far for some, but it seems right to me, and it doesn't seem disrespectful, but rather makes her and her regimentedness deeper. It also makes her interactions funny, which should be okay. It was okay for Coulson to be a fan, it should be okay for her too.

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Back in 2010 my two favorite heroines were Lt. Alice Malvin from "Pumpkin Scissors" and Lisbeth Salander from the "Millenium" trilogy.

I liked Lt. Alice Malvin because she was doing what heroes haven't been seen doing before - helping the victims of war and stopping the aggravation of war crimes - i.e. stopping further oppression of victims of war, stealing from them, further antagonizing the conflict. She was a noble woman who joined the military because she wanted to fight for country. As old-fashioned as it sounded, she really did it to help the people, not enforce the status quo. In the last episode she fought to end an uprising between some peasants and a group of nobility who were getting fat on dinner. Despite the how righteous the peasants' grievance was she wouldn't allow them to touch the nobleman they blamed. Why? Her sisters - who never supported her joining the military - said that's the burden of being a true noble: you can't be on anyone's side. You fight for what's right for everybody, and nobody is above is the law. She was at times brazen and naive. But she can also hold herself with a sense of composure that was graceful and compassionate. That is lacking in many action heroines in film.

I loved Lisbeth Salander because she didn't take crap from anybody. Society failed her but she refused to be beaten by it. She lived by her own sense of justice and she didn't care about preaching it to the world. It was refreshing because most 'kick ass' heroines don't have the background she had. There were strong reasons for her cynicism. If I were to write such a character in a superhero comics I would also portray civilization being blind and ignorant to how bad things are in society. In comics there's an attitude that what we've got isn't perfect but it's good enough and worth defending. I wouldn't take that attitude with a character like Salander.
Awesomenes. I think it's incredible how complex female characters can get. There's a lot more room for dichotomy, I think. That might just be me though.

My favorite female superhero was always Storm. She had my respect, but something about her let you know there was a story there. Once I found out her story, with all the... she's done a lot, been through a lot. She's earned the name Goddess, y'know? She became one of my absolute favorites. I liked a lot of the female X-Men, but Storm won big with me. Still does... too bad the movie version doesn't have any of that subtlety.

Overall, my favorite female character was actually a girl named Jade from a video game called Beyond Good and Evil. She was, like most of the heroines I've talked about, vastly outclassed physically by her foes, but she didnt' show it. She took pictures and incriminated the evil empire and got through a couple fights, with the help of her big dumb strong sidekick guys, but mostly she just survived and stealthily snuck around. I remember she had so much freedom, to be someone with so much pressure and so many enemies and so little hope. It was really cool. She was really cool, even without going to deep into her psyche like a book, she cared for the kids at her orphanage. She was just a great character all around.

I honestly don't read a lot of fiction novels, so I can't pick out any literary heroes that drew me in. I'm actually not really a fan of some of my most esteemed characters. I like Wonder Woman because I feel like she should be as popular and big as Batman and Superman, like their universe is in imbalance without her being on that level critically and commercially. Ms. Marvel interests me mostly because she is the most likely female powered solo hero to join the MCU. I have enjoyed her book though, despite my disdain for the costume.

Oh, and Monica Rambeau is the truth, I don't really care what anyone says. Honestly... honestly. Monica Rambeau. Powers, personality, history, look, feel, friends, habits, everything sings to me.

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I'd argue that the only two options are Ms. Marvel and Black Widow. She-Hulk should be introduced in a Hulk sequel while Scarlet Witch has never had her own series and merely alternated between the Avengers and X-Men.
True, but I really got tell ya not to count out Spider-Woman. She ties in so deeply to the Marvel MCU mythos and her story of romance and betrayal and identity fires on all four cylinders. Plus, she has actual powers which could be really really cool to explore and create action from. And she opens up a lot of options as far as where to take the story on Earth.

Picture a young woman, not sure if she's a clone or a prisoner or an animal, with incredible agility and bioelectric and pheromone powers that make her attacks more powerful and allow her to connect with people around her in strange ways, most notably by causing everyone around her to be fearful and reject her. She is surrounded by other experiments of HYDRA, other young people, she is trained by Taskmaster to be a master combatant with her abilities and then unleashed on "the enemy," SHIELD, where a hero (Fury? Widow? Hawkeye? Someone new?) attempt to show her the light while her fellow HYDRA member/current love interest tries to steer her to the wrong. She fights like a mix between Spider-Man and Electro, and ultimately must bring down HYDRA's most dangerous experiment, one of her closest friends, in order to survive, much less redeem herself.

Perhaps too similar to Black Widow's story... but I just want to see some woman with some super powers.

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And yet if it had bombed, you can be sure that many people would have used it as proof that audiences won't except a female lead in an action movie, so there's a gigantic double standard. The series had a female lead, Jennifer Lawrence was the focus of most of the marketing, they were selling the movie to people using her name/face. So young adult adaptations always succeed, really. How did Mortal Instruments, or the Golden Compass, or Beautiful Creatures do, not well.
Nothing always succeeds, but some things succeed regularly, and some things fail regularly. People make decisions based on such things all the time. Put it this way. People liked Hunger Games for reasons other than it had a female who could shoot people. If you make a different movie about a female who can shoot people, that has nothing else in common with HG, there's no proof that those same people will like that too. Often people will say "If it's good people will like it." But there's lots of great movies, especially genre movies, that no one goes to see because the ideas aren't popular.

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Old 10-01-2013, 07:10 PM   #78
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This is why I think Captain Marvel is an ideal female solo franchise. It has a built in "Mr. Smith" who you can kill at the end, at which point Carol has balanced all her badarse action powerhouseness with relatable feminine vulnerability, so when she starts laying the smackdown in Avengers, everyone understands she's not just "an ice queen" or a typical macho superhero with breasts, but she's actually every bit as layered and conflicted as Katniss or any other female hero. Her vulnerability in Avengers is expressed in her emulation, her desire to be 'one of the guys' (which here includes Black Widow) which is well meaning but misplaced, emulating her comic book motivations of trying to be a worthy superhero. Giving her a bit of fangirl flavor also makes her instantly relatable and vulnerable and distances her from everyone.
I think one of the biggest obstacles for a superheroine film is trying to establish her standing on issues people think superheroes represent. "Truth, Justice, the American Way" and all that jazz. Are the ideals of a superhero something only a male can represent? Is the way to uphold them only achievable by men?

Recently I've been thinking that Marvel should have radio shows for its superheroines because nobody considers what they have to say. Comics are a visual medium, but to promote its female characters perhaps radio shows are a new way to represent them.

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Picture a young woman, not sure if she's a clone or a prisoner or an animal, with incredible agility and bioelectric and pheromone powers that make her attacks more powerful and allow her to connect with people around her in strange ways, most notably by causing everyone around her to be fearful and reject her. She is surrounded by other experiments of HYDRA, other young people, she is trained by Taskmaster to be a master combatant with her abilities and then unleashed on "the enemy," SHIELD, where a hero (Fury? Widow? Hawkeye? Someone new?) attempt to show her the light while her fellow HYDRA member/current love interest tries to steer her to the wrong. She fights like a mix between Spider-Man and Electro, and ultimately must bring down HYDRA's most dangerous experiment, one of her closest friends, in order to survive, much less redeem herself.

Perhaps too similar to Black Widow's story... but I just want to see some woman with some super powers.
Spider-Woman is a great in-house character. But I fear one of the most persistent roles in action films is being a super spy. It's a legacy of the Cold War, which hopefully will diminish along with the secrety identity concept. Corruption is so rampant today and I don't think it'll help leading heroines who must deal with trust issues while subverting our beliefs on transparency. Molding a heroine role into a super spy just emphasizes the femme fatale personality, which is not a very noble role. Femme fatales are traditionally from the pulp novels and are deceitful, back-stabbing seductresses.

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The swordsmanship's first achievement is the unity of man and sword. Once this unity is attained even a blade of grass can be a weapon.

The second achievement is when the sword exists in one's heart. When absent from one's hand one can strike an enemy at paces
even with bare hands.

Swordsmanship's ultimate achievement is the absence of the sword in both hand and heart. The swordsman is at peace with the rest of the world. He vows not to kill.

Last edited by Red Mask; 10-01-2013 at 07:21 PM.
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Old 10-02-2013, 02:32 AM   #79
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I think one of the biggest obstacles for a superheroine film is trying to establish her standing on issues people think superheroes represent. "Truth, Justice, the American Way" and all that jazz. Are the ideals of a superhero something only a male can represent? Is the way to uphold them only achievable by men?

Recently I've been thinking that Marvel should have radio shows for its superheroines because nobody considers what they have to say. Comics are a visual medium, but to promote its female characters perhaps radio shows are a new way to represent them.
That's interesting. That would be a very interesting project, I wouldn't mind seeing, er, hearing something like that.

I don't know that Marvel heroes really do much of that Truth and Justice stuff. I'm thinking... it's all very personal, they're trying to right their own wrongs, with the exception of Cap, who is the guy who plays the hero trope straight. So the question for Ms. Marvel is: what is her sin, basically? What has she done wrong? Did she make a monster? Star a war? Arm a war? Basically... what conflict is her fault?

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Spider-Woman is a great in-house character. But I fear one of the most persistent roles in action films is being a super spy. It's a legacy of the Cold War, which hopefully will diminish along with the secrety identity concept. Corruption is so rampant today and I don't think it'll help leading heroines who must deal with trust issues while subverting our beliefs on transparency. Molding a heroine role into a super spy just emphasizes the femme fatale personality, which is not a very noble role. Femme fatales are traditionally from the pulp novels and are deceitful, back-stabbing seductresses.
This is a good point. Spider-Woman's origin, the interesting version at least, begs for the femme fatale treatment, but you're right about the traditional take on that archetype. Also, the more I think about it, the more it's taking Black Widow's spot in the universe, even down to the tazer punches. Dang...

So, let's have that Black Widow movie as a lower budget winter release one year. I know Cap2 already has her doing this whole spy thriller bit, but Cap 3 isn't likely to go in that direction, but Widow could keep going that way, while Cap was more wham-bam-action soldier type. A Widow film would have Natasha as the redeemed femme fatale, and the storyline would similarly redeem the femme fatale archetype as well, subvert it in some way.

I would love to see a Black Widow movie that brought together her childhood past with her, say, ex-husband Red Guardian, going back under cover as Yelena Belova, Natalie Rushman, and perhaps a double fake out as Ronin, uncovering the new Red Room, 2R, all while taking on their new leader, Ronin (her ex Husband with a new title) and the original real Yelena Belova, The New Black Widow, perhaps with a Russian Super Soldier Serum in her blood. Throw in Hawkeye in a supporting role, or, if you really want to twist something, have her bring in Bruce Banner. Could be a lot of fun. Natasha grows from being just a former assassin trying to save lives, to someone who's trying to represent the highest ideals of her people and their history, who's actually the long lost member of Romanov family line, and genuinely funny and unpredictable trickster heroine.

At the same time, the archetypes the males represent aren't really 'noble' per se. Certainly for Batman and Superman and Spider-Man and Captain America... but for everyone else? These aren't noble archetypes... these are pretty much bad people, or at least people who have made horrible mistakes, and are trying to do better. I think a female hero needs to be free to make those kinds of huge selfish mistakes. Black Widow's already made hers, really, but Ms. Marvel should be too.

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Old 10-02-2013, 08:24 AM   #80
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Yeah, gives us Captain marvel, and she hulk.

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Old 10-02-2013, 09:19 AM   #81
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So, let's have that Black Widow movie as a lower budget winter release one year. I know Cap2 already has her doing this whole spy thriller bit, but Cap 3 isn't likely to go in that direction, but Widow could keep going that way, while Cap was more wham-bam-action soldier type. A Widow film would have Natasha as the redeemed femme fatale, and the storyline would similarly redeem the femme fatale archetype as well, subvert it in some way.

I would love to see a Black Widow movie that brought together her childhood past with her, say, ex-husband Red Guardian, going back under cover as Yelena Belova, Natalie Rushman, and perhaps a double fake out as Ronin, uncovering the new Red Room, 2R, all while taking on their new leader, Ronin (her ex Husband with a new title) and the original real Yelena Belova, The New Black Widow, perhaps with a Russian Super Soldier Serum in her blood. Throw in Hawkeye in a supporting role, or, if you really want to twist something, have her bring in Bruce Banner. Could be a lot of fun. Natasha grows from being just a former assassin trying to save lives, to someone who's trying to represent the highest ideals of her people and their history, who's actually the long lost member of Romanov family line, and genuinely funny and unpredictable trickster heroine.
I love this idea, and that is a movie I would want to see. Of supporting characters though, I'd say Hawkeye fits better here and I think he deserves a little more spotlight in the MCU. Banner/Hulk will get more in the future I believe, plus I think Clint would work better in a spy thriller.

But yeah, I like your story arc for BW because it gives us a little more of her background and does turn the trope around a little bit. And in terms of feature films, it would be a much different type of female lead from Captain Marvel which would be good in terms of character diversity. My only concern is that they'd need to differentiate it enough from Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. to warrant that type of film, but there's plenty of ways to make it work without that becoming an issue.

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Old 10-02-2013, 11:25 AM   #82
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That's interesting. That would be a very interesting project, I wouldn't mind seeing, er, hearing something like that.

I don't know that Marvel heroes really do much of that Truth and Justice stuff. I'm thinking... it's all very personal, they're trying to right their own wrongs, with the exception of Cap, who is the guy who plays the hero trope straight. So the question for Ms. Marvel is: what is her sin, basically? What has she done wrong? Did she make a monster? Star a war? Arm a war? Basically... what conflict is her fault?
Marvel heroes usually come with some character flaw that leads to hubris. But the Fantastic Four and the X-Men aren't making up for any mistakes. Their origins are just more grounded in how they became heroes.

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The swordsmanship's first achievement is the unity of man and sword. Once this unity is attained even a blade of grass can be a weapon.

The second achievement is when the sword exists in one's heart. When absent from one's hand one can strike an enemy at paces
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Swordsmanship's ultimate achievement is the absence of the sword in both hand and heart. The swordsman is at peace with the rest of the world. He vows not to kill.
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Old 10-02-2013, 11:32 AM   #83
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Thanks! Clint is good call, and he needs to be involved, but I think a Hulk scene would help make the movie extremely unique among spy movies, entrench it the MCU, and show a lot about Widow's tactics and abilities, seeing as how a lot of her character development in Avengers was Hulk-derived. It does need to be separated from Agents of Shield, I agree. Well, first, cut her off from SHIELD, this is personal. Second focus on her disguise and artifice abilities, then on her combat, keep her away from any forensics or whatever. Throw in Hulk as her dropping a WMD and on her enemies, and watch the fun, though, I suppose that kinda skewers the low budget bit, but mid budget should suffice.

And it would be a lot different than, Captain Marvel. Carol should be brighter character overall.

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Old 10-02-2013, 12:46 PM   #84
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Marvel heroes usually come with some character flaw that leads to hubris. But the Fantastic Four and the X-Men aren't making up for any mistakes. Their origins are just more grounded in how they became heroes.
Hmmm... I think most of the X-Men have made those kinds of mistakes and are trying to make up for them, or their powers themselves caused pain and such, through no fault of their own, but similar non-noble effect. Xavier has already set up the noble path for them though, that's true. And yeah, the Fantastic Four is more played straight, though they have gotten into the 'accident was Reed's fault' story angle from time to time. It's interesting that both those examples are teams though.

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Old 10-03-2013, 12:25 AM   #85
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Hmmm... I think most of the X-Men have made those kinds of mistakes and are trying to make up for them, or their powers themselves caused pain and such, through no fault of their own, but similar non-noble effect. Xavier has already set up the noble path for them though, that's true. And yeah, the Fantastic Four is more played straight, though they have gotten into the 'accident was Reed's fault' story angle from time to time. It's interesting that both those examples are teams though.
The purpose of the X-Men wasn't based on mistakes. They're standing up for their rights and stopping bad mutants from causing harm. The cosmic ray accident was a consequence of rushing to win the Space Race. The FF aren't making up for receiving their powers. They're explorers who happen to have the right stuff.

Team-based heroes can emphasize a purpose if they each have something to contribute to the issue. I don't think I can listen to just one superhero's views on space exploration and first contact rules.

Generally superheroes today usually stumbled on to their powers by accident. How they got there and how they use them are more specific. Carol was doing her job as a security chief when she encountered Capt. Marvel. She could have arrested him as an enemy alien instead of becoming his ally. Those actions reflect heavily on her personality. It shows she's not completely xenophobic.

Jessica Drew received her powers as a consequence of her father trying to save her life. Put in the years of suspended animation and you've got a messy life right there. I'd say trust is definitely one of the issues in her story, along with themes of family loyalty and love.

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The swordsmanship's first achievement is the unity of man and sword. Once this unity is attained even a blade of grass can be a weapon.

The second achievement is when the sword exists in one's heart. When absent from one's hand one can strike an enemy at paces
even with bare hands.

Swordsmanship's ultimate achievement is the absence of the sword in both hand and heart. The swordsman is at peace with the rest of the world. He vows not to kill.
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Old 10-03-2013, 12:01 PM   #86
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The purpose of the X-Men wasn't based on mistakes. They're standing up for their rights and stopping bad mutants from causing harm. The cosmic ray accident was a consequence of rushing to win the Space Race. The FF aren't making up for receiving their powers. They're explorers who happen to have the right stuff.

Team-based heroes can emphasize a purpose if they each have something to contribute to the issue. I don't think I can listen to just one superhero's views on space exploration and first contact rules.

Generally superheroes today usually stumbled on to their powers by accident. How they got there and how they use them are more specific. Carol was doing her job as a security chief when she encountered Capt. Marvel. She could have arrested him as an enemy alien instead of becoming his ally. Those actions reflect heavily on her personality. It shows she's not completely xenophobic.

Jessica Drew received her powers as a consequence of her father trying to save her life. Put in the years of suspended animation and you've got a messy life right there. I'd say trust is definitely one of the issues in her story, along with themes of family loyalty and love.
The purpose of the X-Men may not be based on mistakes, but the appeal of the characters is. FF is different though, to be sure.

Take Carol for instance, in the original comics, she was an instant ally (and damsel in distress) of Mar-Vell, but a story where she is initially distrustful of Mar-Vell (not unlike the EMH adaptation) would be more interesting, and make her a more interesting character, if she had to grow to trust him. She'd be more realistic of a character if she, living in the MCU, equated hidden aliens with big problems. So, in her case, instilling nobility for nobility's sake can make her a less interesting less relatable character. It all but removes the conflict from the central relationship. Contrast how Begins handled it's love interest versus Man of Steel. Iron Man vs Thor. Which ones were more interesting?

One of Carol's strongest and most consistent characteristics is trying to prove herself, to her father, to the other officers, to the other heroes. That begs the story of messing up a good thing and then realizing you were good enough all along. Yes, these characters got their powers on accident, but their motivations, the core of who they are, is not based in nobility, it simply aspires to it. Except for Cap of course. Everyone else has a core of goodness in them that blossoms at the right time, and I really like that experience.

Being a femme fatale for HYDRA is pretty essential to Spider-Woman's story, which compounds her trust issues to the next level, but also makes it extremely difficult to bring back the family issue as she's slept through most of her family's life, if not its entirety.

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Old 10-03-2013, 08:04 PM   #87
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Take Carol for instance, in the original comics, she was an instant ally (and damsel in distress) of Mar-Vell, but a story where she is initially distrustful of Mar-Vell (not unlike the EMH adaptation) would be more interesting, and make her a more interesting character, if she had to grow to trust him. She'd be more realistic of a character if she, living in the MCU, equated hidden aliens with big problems. So, in her case, instilling nobility for nobility's sake can make her a less interesting less relatable character. It all but removes the conflict from the central relationship. Contrast how Begins handled it's love interest versus Man of Steel. Iron Man vs Thor. Which ones were more interesting?
I really hope they don't introduce romance into Carol Danvers' story. Whether she is Ms. Marvel or Captain Marvel that ploy has grown tiresome. Can a career woman still have it all by having a boyfriend too? I'd just toss that and concentrate on her own conflicts.

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One of Carol's strongest and most consistent characteristics is trying to prove herself, to her father, to the other officers, to the other heroes. That begs the story of messing up a good thing and then realizing you were good enough all along. Yes, these characters got their powers on accident, but their motivations, the core of who they are, is not based in nobility, it simply aspires to it. Except for Cap of course. Everyone else has a core of goodness in them that blossoms at the right time, and I really like that experience.
Hopefully Marvel will continue to approach new characters differently, but the audience needs to know that Carol is a good person at her first introduction.

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Being a femme fatale for HYDRA is pretty essential to Spider-Woman's story, which compounds her trust issues to the next level, but also makes it extremely difficult to bring back the family issue as she's slept through most of her family's life, if not its entirety.
I'd think she'd feel lost after waking up from suspended animation. That's not the same as having daddy issues, I just think she'd question who she can turn to after all that time.

If she's introduced in the SHIELD television series they can pace her origin more steadily. A feature film would be very tricky to get her entire origin presented. A period piece would be good. They can get away with her costume more easily.

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The swordsmanship's first achievement is the unity of man and sword. Once this unity is attained even a blade of grass can be a weapon.

The second achievement is when the sword exists in one's heart. When absent from one's hand one can strike an enemy at paces
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Swordsmanship's ultimate achievement is the absence of the sword in both hand and heart. The swordsman is at peace with the rest of the world. He vows not to kill.
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Old 10-03-2013, 08:33 PM   #88
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Default Re: Female Superheores On Screen

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I really hope they don't introduce romance into Carol Danvers' story. Whether she is Ms. Marvel or Captain Marvel that ploy has grown tiresome. Can a career woman still have it all by having a boyfriend too? I'd just toss that and concentrate on her own conflicts.
I would hope the only female hero isn't the only superhero without a love interest. If it's true that women are drawn to romance, then she, imho, should have the very best one (that is, the highest quality story of such, not necessarily the best relationship). I think her romance with Mar-Vell naturally is more about differences between them rather than her career. They're both in the same careers, basically, that brought them together. If anything tossing the love interest is a statement that the woman can't have it all, only the guys can. That's a really scary message.

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Hopefully Marvel will continue to approach new characters differently, but the audience needs to know that Carol is a good person at her first introduction.
Usually movies establish their hero is good deep down inside by having them do something mundane, not by having them solve the major problems of the film by their natural goodness. Tony Stark is textbook, all he does at the beginning is take photos with some marines, but you instantly get that he's a good guy, he's just into himself. Overcompensating by making the character too good to have the problems anyone else would have makes them less interesting. Carol is a good person deep down inside, but she's got some significant issues. Those have to be on display too, albeit in a fun way, to make her interesting and entertaining. I think the idea that she was a dreamer is unique. Even as a kid, she read a lot, she dreamed of going into space. This parallels with many people's fantasies of being a hero, but for her it makes her someone who hopes to be a better more amazing person, tie back into her finding out she already is. Plus, being a reader-type gives her some really great quotes and perspectives to use and add. Sharing that with someone would instantly cement her as a good person, even if she is over driven about this achievement thing. Even in the very beginning, she just as easily talk to herself as though she were talking to her cat while feeding it and everyone would hear her good person internal dialogue.

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I'd think she'd feel lost after waking up from suspended animation. That's not the same as having daddy issues, I just think she'd question who she can turn to after all that time.

If she's introduced in the SHIELD television series they can pace her origin more steadily. A feature film would be very tricky to get her entire origin presented. A period piece would be good. They can get away with her costume more easily.
I agree, her family issues would be kinda small potatoes based on what she's dealing with. Spreading out her origin is smart too. A film can certainly do it, in the same way any other experiment victim in a bottle thriller does flashbacks to figure out how this person became what they are before they woke up with unreliable memories about what happened. But a TV show would be better, I think. Her powers work well on a TV budget too, I think. Too bad SHIELD doesn't seem to be about including heroes, except as problems.

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Old 10-03-2013, 09:15 PM   #89
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Default Re: Female Superheores On Screen

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I would hope the only female hero isn't the only superhero without a love interest. If it's true that women are drawn to romance, then she, imho, should have the very best one (that is, the highest quality story of such, not necessarily the best relationship). I think her romance with Mar-Vell naturally is more about differences between them rather than her career. They're both in the same careers, basically, that brought them together. If anything tossing the love interest is a statement that the woman can't have it all, only the guys can. That's a really scary message.
That's a strong argument against the Bedchell test. Personally, I'd rather Mar-vell not be a love interest at all. Movies like Salt and Tomb Raider have already shown heroines who don't get the guy as a sub plot. Maybe Carol should learn to relax or socialize more, but I'd rather finding a love interest not become a plot point.

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Old 10-03-2013, 09:28 PM   #90
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Default Re: Female Superheores On Screen

The Bechdel test is about having a conversation - not an entire movie - where two women talk about something other than a man. And Salt's civilian husband is like the whole beginning of the film. His actions change her destiny. And Daniel Craig's character in Tomb Raider was definitely a love interest. That doesn't mean they get together necessarily (Iron Man didn't get together with Pepper initially), but you explore that aspect of the hero because it's something people enjoy and care about.

A love interest storyline, a good one, is not about finding a love interest: in every hero movie it's someone who's already natural in the hero's life whom they form a special multi-level bond that includes romance. It's part of the fantasy, having that one special person who cares about you and believes in you and thinks you're cute/hot/whatever. Some people don't prefer it in their films (or in real life!), for whatever reason, but it's not a bad thing on any level.

One movie that did that without them being love interests is Ninja Assassin. That was kinda cool. The characters could care deeply about each other but there wasn't really a sexual thing there. I could see something like that for Carol and Mar-Vell too, but I would prefer a cool relationship.

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Old 10-06-2013, 10:17 AM   #91
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Default Re: Female Superheores On Screen

I want to see Monica Rambeau as a Coast Guard officer in a future film.

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Old 10-06-2013, 09:20 PM   #92
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Default Re: Female Superheores On Screen

Having a romance in a superhero movie isn't a problem in an of itself. I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with giving a female superhero a love interest. Tony/Pepper, Peter/Gwen, and Clark/Lois all prove that it can be done well. The problems start when being a love interest is ALL that a female character is, or that its THE focus of the movie.

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Old 10-06-2013, 10:17 PM   #93
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Default Re: Female Superheores On Screen

That could be a problem... but at the same time... Pepper was kinda the focus of Iron Man 3, even to the point where she beat the final bad guy and not Tony. Would that be too much for a female hero, or perhaps just too much for her first outing?

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Old 10-11-2013, 12:33 PM   #94
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Default Re: Female Superheores On Screen

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hate this hunger games did it excuse hunger games would of made money no matter what

it didn't make money because of a female lead it made money due to being adapted off hugely popular young adult novels
And why do you think those novels were hugely popular? Because they were led by a strong female character and written by a female author.

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Old 10-11-2013, 02:25 PM   #95
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Default Re: Female Superheores On Screen

That's true of many such novels, they are not all popular. Hunger Games was not just good, but timely and relevant. I suspect it was also marketed well. Part of the sales issue is that female led films are often made for the sake of making female led films, and so the only appeal is making a strong female: a political statement. That's not the most entertaining and appealing thing. Hunger Games would have been just as interesting a story with a male lead, it didn't rely on it being female led for popularity. I think it was better with a female lead for a few reasons, but the point is, it was not popular because of the strong female lead. Relying on that for popularity is a mistake.

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Old 10-11-2013, 02:44 PM   #96
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Default Re: Female Superheores On Screen

To me the three most developed female action characters in Cinema are Ellen Ripley, Beatrix Kiddo and Hit Girl.

None of them dress hot or revealing, their character is 100% in their actions & dialogue.

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Old 10-11-2013, 04:23 PM   #97
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Default Re: Female Superheores On Screen

When it comes to Females in the Marvel U that can carry their own film, I can only see Fox doing a spin-off with Storm, Shadowcat, Psylocke, Domino or Rogue but that's unlikely since the X-Men are team players.

Marvel actually does have some options. She-Hulk, Black Widow and Ms. Marvel are the best choices that Marvel has.

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Old 10-11-2013, 05:12 PM   #98
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Default Re: Female Superheores On Screen

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bring in Monica Rambeau as a coast guard officer in some future film. It's a good way to start for her future self.
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I want to see Monica Rambeau as a Coast Guard officer in a future film.
I also want to see Monica Rambeau introduced in the MCU (my current pick to play her is Nicole Beharie...but that could change...she's kinda short and I need to see more of her work). I'd even be fine with the character debuting on Agents Of S.H.I.E.L.D.

However, she'll obviously never get her own film...I'd even be surprised to see her in an Avengers sequel.

I'm generally in agreement that the top candidates for an MCU solo film would be Carol Danvers, Black Widow, She-Hulk and Spider-Woman.

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Old 10-11-2013, 09:38 PM   #99
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Default Re: Female Superheores On Screen

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To me the three most developed female action characters in Cinema are Ellen Ripley, Beatrix Kiddo and Hit Girl.

None of them dress hot or revealing, their character is 100% in their actions & dialogue.
True dat. Also, great examples of characters that are unique in addition to being female. None of them could be considered a female X. They are what they are, not the female version of something. They are additionally fascinating in that you can't really do a male version of any of them... possibly Ripley I guess, but not really.

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I also want to see Monica Rambeau introduced in the MCU (my current pick to play her is Nicole Beharie...but that could change...she's kinda short and I need to see more of her work). I'd even be fine with the character debuting on Agents Of S.H.I.E.L.D.

However, she'll obviously never get her own film...I'd even be surprised to see her in an Avengers sequel.

I'm generally in agreement that the top candidates for an MCU solo film would be Carol Danvers, Black Widow, She-Hulk and Spider-Woman.
Monica Rambeau, honestly, would make for the best film character, her powers and personality sing. I personally would want Naomie Harris, but hey, potato, pot-ah-to. Rosario Dawson would also rock it.

I think the best place to introduce her would be to give her her own Marvel One-Shot, similar to Agent Carter. Maybe introduce the actress non-powered in a cameo bit, and then have her gain and use her powers in the One Shot. Her origin story in Amazing Spider-Man works very well as a One Shot, ties in with Roxxon Oil and everything.

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Old 10-11-2013, 09:49 PM   #100
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Default Re: Female Superheores On Screen

Ripley is walking around in too small underwear at the end of Alien

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