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View Poll Results: How do you feel about Goyer writing the script for the first Superman Batman film
His work on MOS was VERY GOOD. He'll do GREAT. 27 20.45%
His work on MOS was OKAY. I am Skecptical. 30 22.73%
His work on MOS was POOR. I feel dread. 32 24.24%
He NEEDS Affleck's help and guidance to deliver a great script 43 32.58%
Voters: 132. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 09-27-2013, 10:57 PM   #226
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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I don't recall seeing eyes glisten or hearing noses sniffle in my theatre -- but I don't believe the montage was ever meant to elicit such a response. I mean, it featured a Stan Lee cameo! It served its purpose, tying up the narrative of the city's death and destruction, and maybe it's tied up too neatly. Would I have been bothered by its absence? Honestly? Maybe not, and definitely not to the extent I'm bothered by something similar missing in MoS.
Nooo, according to the people who brought up the montage in the first place, the purpose was to acknowledge and bring home the tragedy that had unfolded on your screen.

But you didn't seem to need it for TA, so I don't get why you need it for MOS. Because of bigger destruction? That hardly seems like a good reason? Because it's a Superman film? Again, not sound reasoning, since we see the comics often ignore the death tolls. So what compels you to need an acknowledgement?

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Double standards you say? Yep, I freely admit to having different standards -- because my expectations going in for were different for both. TA's trailers didn't do anything for me. I was like, "looks cool, will catch it if I have the time". And I was blown away by the actual movie. The trailers for MoS were something else. I got goosebumps, and in Trailer #3, I saw the awe and magic to rival S:TM, an unmatched CGI -- I saw my definitive superhero movie (damn your trailer godliness, Snyder!).

TA had its share of plot contrivances and the quips and one-liners put a gloss over the story's strength IMO, but the movie met its primary design: to entertain. While MoS didn't meet its: to move.
MOS entertained and moved me. It entertained and moved the people I saw it with. I don't want to say that you're wrong, but I think you may be wrong.

I think the hangup is because of the clash of fanon versus canon. I know people don't like to hear that, but I do think that's the problem.

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And at long last, we see eye to eye on a movie!
That poor movie. So much potential. It was just....long. And boring, even with the pretty cool (for the times, anyway) ladder fight scene. I loved the queen, but the rest of the film was pretty bad.

I do think maybe The Alamo was possibly worse. That was a movie that felt about five hours too long.

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Old 09-27-2013, 11:39 PM   #227
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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Nooo, according to the people who brought up the montage in the first place, the purpose was to acknowledge and bring home the tragedy that had unfolded on your screen.
It did and that's what I said, "It served its purpose, tying up the narrative of the city's death and destruction". Whether it was compelling and effective is another matter, and left to the individual.

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But you didn't seem to need it for TA, so I don't get why you need it for MOS.
I was indifferent to it, but it served its storytelling purpose. And because of my indifference to it, I said maybe it wouldn't matter. However, the fact remains it's present in TA.

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Because of bigger destruction? That hardly seems like a good reason?
Nope. Same scale of destruction to me (world at threat, city under siege).

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Because it's a Superman film?
Nope. Because of how the destruction was treated.

This is the secondary point here, but it has to be said that EVERYONE watches MoS with some degree of preconception about Superman. There's no escaping it because of how huge an icon Superman is. I went in with S:TM as a yardstick, you perhaps did with the comics in mind, for instance.

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Again, not sound reasoning, since we see the comics often ignore the death tolls.
True, comics do often ignore the death tolls, but I'm not referencing the death tolls from the comics. I'm talking about these two movies solely.

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So what compels you to need an acknowledgement?
Because of how the story in MoS was told (as I perceived it). My breakdown:

(1) Zod was responsible for the deaths of many, and would continue on his spree if he wasn't stopped by Superman.

(2) Superman justifiably kills Zod.

(3) Superman made the biggest sacrifice (giving up on Krypton and taking a life) because of the lives lost and to be lost.

(4) Hence, the death and destruction has to be acknowledged because it set the stage for the big climax, Superman killing Zod.

Sndyer describes the significance of the D&D as much:

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I wanted the movie to have a mythological feeling. In ancient mythology, mass deaths are used to symbolize disasters. In other countries like Greece and Japan, myths were recounted through the generations, partly to answer unanswerable questions about death and violence. In America, we don’t have that legacy of ancient mythology. Superman is probably the closest we get. It’s a way of recounting the myth.
No death and destruction, no Superman killing Zod, no new Superman mythology.

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MOS entertained and moved me. It entertained and moved the people I saw it with. I don't want to say that you're wrong, but I think you may be wrong.
(I think you may be wrong too!)

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I think the hangup is because of the clash of fanon versus canon. I know people don't like to hear that, but I do think that's the problem.
For some fans, sure. Not for me. My issues are with how the movie told its story. I like the approach taken by Snyder and Goyer. Didn't like the execution.

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That poor movie. So much potential. It was just....long. And boring, even with the pretty cool (for the times, anyway) ladder fight scene. I loved the queen, but the rest of the film was pretty bad.
How can a movie starring Tim Roth be bad? That's how bad it was.


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Old 09-28-2013, 12:57 AM   #228
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This whole argument is bogus to begin with. TA acknowledged the deaths in a way that did nothing compelling for the film. Big flipping deal. It's not a very good example for people who want MOS to be different. At least find a movie that does a montage of death and destruction well!
The dismissal of TA's acknowledgement of the death and destruction as a valid comparison is a staw man. Only a few posters have come forward and said the montage wasn't compelling (I'm including myself here!). Compelling or not is entirely subjective, so the whole argument isn't bogus to begin with.

TA's montage remains the best comparison IMO because of how similar both movies are. (Superheros, world under alien threat, city wrecked.)

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And you finally stated what so many other people don't get; Superman was basically dealing with things on his own. There was a moment or two where we saw the police trying to direct people to safety, but it was so fast, most people seem to have missed it (or ignored it in favor of being able to complain more about MOS).
You and TheFlamingCoco make an absolutely legit point; I have realized from earlier discussions I've missed out on one or two incidents during the fight myself. I like to think most aren't wilfully ignoring the relief, police etc., just that they weren't aware, like me. In the same breath though, maybe the editing or pacing could be better if "it was so fast"?

Superman is but one -- but so is Zod in Metropolis. And yes, the movie's internal logic dictates A causes B, but it's all about the fight choreography, and ultimately what the direction and writing demands of it and makes it out to be.

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It's not the lack of acknowledgement that has people ticked. It's that anyone died at all in the Superman film.
For some people perhaps. Not me though.

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Even though in the comics, innocent people die sometimes, that fact has been pushed by the wayside.
Yes, innocent people died in the comics, but it's zero bearing on what I feel about innocents dying in MoS.

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Most of the arguments about MOS being too dark is bogus too. Anyone who has ever read the comics knows that Superman has faced some terrible situations. His world is not this sunny, happy place where the bad guys are mostly silly, and easy to defeat.
Agree, the sum of Superman isn't about saving kittens from trees. However, if Clark was made to face the terrible choice of killing an un-silly, hard to defeat foe in MoS, why did his story end in a "sunny, happy place?"

Wouldn't it be actually truer to form if Clark got really angstier instead?

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MOS doesn't do anything too unique with the violence -- that level of destruction is in the comics. What the film did well -- perhaps too well -- was show the actual destruction. And even though many people keep saying that MOS didn't do enough to make you care about the destruction, I would say that the very fact that anyone is even indignant over the deaths of those nameless characters says that the film DID succeed in making them care.
Interesting point, never thought about it that way. Maybe!

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TA is apparently a useless example of good writing, so someone give a better example of montages dedicated to death.
Straw man!


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Old 09-28-2013, 06:00 AM   #229
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Hollywood Science Fiction in general does not generally do that, alien species are more or less just an allegory for different races of human beings.
Regardless of the allegorical aspect, countless science fiction movies depict human beings as nothing more than vulnerable test subjects for experiments conducted by "technologically advanced" and "intellectually superior" alien lifeforms. Even humanoid aliens are often described as having unique internal structures to that of Earthly inhabitants. Moreover, certain words or actions performed by various cast members and such are meant to inform film audiences that what they are witnessing in the nature of these otherworldly beings isn't as close to home as it may appear.

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Sociologically, psychologically, intellectually, and emotionally, Kryptonians are indistinguishable from human beings.
Making alien characters more accessible to audiences by endowing them with traits and characteristics much like our own isn't anything new in the world of science fiction. However, it's important to observe various points of divergence as well. In Snyder's Man of Steel, such a point occurs when we first see young Clark Kent manifest strange powers by way of yellow sunlight or rather, the way in which his foreign physiological make-up reacts to it. Much of the plot surrounding the codex and the genesis chamber is similarly meant to convey that Kryptonians are years ahead of us -- that they have a grasp on technology that we have yet to master.

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Kryptonians on Krypton are exactly like humans, with the possible exception of lung capacity. The Jor-El vs Zod fight did not make them look like "Captain America", they looked like trained human fighters. That's the physical truth, and it's in any case irrelevant to my original argument.
They may look like us; they may conduct themselves in a similar manner, but Kryptonians possess a unique internal genetic structure (even when they reside on their home planet). So, again, they are not exactly like us.

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The Jor-El vs Zod fight did not make them look like "Captain America", they looked like trained human fighters.
That reference wasn't meant to be taken quite so literally. My point is that Kryptonians are a genetically engineered race. Much of what they would be required to know so as to fulfill a designated role within Krypton's "warlike" society is already a part of their DNA. As such, a scientist like Jor-El would not need to expend the time it would take a normal individual to nurture his/her combat skills.


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Old 09-28-2013, 06:16 AM   #230
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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They may look like us; they may conduct themselves in a similar manner, but Kryptonians possess a unique internal genetic structure (even when they reside on their home planet). So, again, they are not exactly like us.
Once more: what's shown in the movie is that Kryptonians on Krypton are exactly like humans on Earth, except for lung capacity.

That's standard in Superman mythology by the way. Sometimes Lois and Clark even have children together: so much for a fundamentally distinct genetic structure.

Superman is fantasy / soft-scifi, it's not hard scifi, stop pretending it is. If MoS were serious science fiction, they would have hired some science consultants to diligently review the script, and to review concepts. Judging by the number of basic science errors (e.g. "Earth's sun is younger and brighter"), they did not.

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My point is that Kryptonians are a genetically engineered race. Much of what they would be required to know so as to fulfill a designated role within Krypton's "warlike" society is already a part of their DNA. As such, a scientist like Jor-El would not need to expend the time it would take a normal individual to nurture his/her combative skills.
Once more, that isn't shown in the movie, so it's irrelevant. Scifi has some logic to it, so if Superman were actual scifi we'd be able to infer it, but it isn't. It's soft scifi/fantasy, so we can only go by what is in the movie, and only what is in the movie: that Kryptonians on Krypton are neurologically, psychologially, socially, and emotionally indistinguishable from humans. You have zero examples of behavioral differences out of 20 minutes of screen time. The only example of *any* difference is the one I came up with: Jor-El's increased lung capacity.

You also have some fundamental misunderstandings of nature and nurture. Even if Jor-El had good warrior genes (which would necessarily undermine his good scientist genes and is thus illogical), he would still need training to be a good fighter. As an example, all human beings have an innate capacity for language. However, kids still need to be spoken to, listened to, and read to in order to learn language, never mind learn a particular language and learn it well. Similarly, a black belt in ju-jitsu is not going to be genetically encoded, only the potential for a black belt in ju-jitsu can be encoded. The former contains too much information.

I agree with you that "in real life" aliens with different genetic structure would be neurologically distinct. But this movie isn't real life, and it's not hard science fiction, it's fantasy. These aliens are just humans with the perturbation that they get superpowers, but only under a yellow sun (and maybe a blue sun), and they have increased lung capacity.

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Old 09-28-2013, 06:56 AM   #231
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Once more: what's shown in the movie is that Kryptonians on Krypton are exactly like humans on Earth, except for lung capacity.
It's their unique Kryptonian physiology that enables them to develop powers under a yellow sun. We see that occur "in the movie", don't we? I'm curious how you make sense of that. Do you just interpret it all as magic?

Sometimes you're required to draw inferences based on the evidence before you even if some details aren't explicitly shown. For instance, if you're watching a film where a man and a woman have a child together, you won't actually witness them having intercourse (unless it's an entirely different kind of movie); and, more importantly, you won't have a problem accepting that the child in question is meant to be perceived as the couple's biological offspring.

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You also have some fundamental misunderstandings of nature and nurture. Even if Jor-El had good warrior genes (which would necessarily undermine his good scientist genes and is thus illogical), he would still need training to be a good fighter. As an example, all human beings have an innate capacity for language. However, kids still need to be spoken to, listened to, and read to in order to learn language, never mind learn a particular language and learn it well. Similarly, a black belt in ju-jitsu is not going to be genetically encoded, only the potential for a black belt in ju-jitsu can be encoded. The former contains too much information.
Again, we are not discussing human beings. That kind of logic simply would not apply to an advanced alien species. Sure, Goyer did not go out of his way to show audiences that Kryptonians are all that different from human beings, but, for the reasons I already described above, there is certainly enough to go on. Like you said, MOS is not hard core science fiction; and I'll add that in certain instances, suspension of disbelief is required.

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Old 09-28-2013, 07:28 AM   #232
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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It's their unique Kryptonian physiology that enables them to develop powers under a yellow sun. We see that occur "in the movie", don't we? I'm curious how you make sense of that. Do you just interpret it all as magic?
We're not supposed to "interpret", and neither does Goyer. This is fantasy, and the rule is: Kryptonians are indistinguishable from humans other than the fact they get powers under a yellow sun (and possibly increased lung capacity). That's all there is to it.

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Sometimes you're required to draw inferences based on the evidence before you even if some details aren't explicitly shown. For instance, if you're watching a film where a man and a woman have a child together, you won't actually witness them having intercourse (unless it's an entirely different kind of movie); and, more importantly, you won't have a problem accepting that the child in question is meant to be perceived as the couple's biological offspring.
Depends on the film. Maybe the mother had sex with another man. Maybe they used in vitro. Maybe the kid is adopted. Maybe the child is brought in from a previous relationship and the other person has agreed to be a step-parent. Maybe the child is a clone if this is science fiction. Maybe it's an immaculate conception if it's fantasy. Maybe it was created by magic like Dawn Summers in season 5 of Buffy.

The inferences drawn depend entirely on what world is portrayed on film. The world built by Goyer is one where Kryptonians are neurologically indistinguishable from humans. You don't need to "infer" that, they make it explicit. That's also standard Superman mythos. It's basically required for the story to work. How can Martha and Jonathan ever raise Superman? How can Clark ever make friends with Pete Ross and Lana Lang if he's an alien? How can Clark and Lois ever love each other? The answer is that humans and Kryptonians are neurologically identical, it's a story requirement. Is it good science fiction? No. Is it good fantasy? Absolutely.

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Again, we are not discussing human beings. .
Kryptonians on Krypton are indistinguishable from human beings except for increased lung capacity. If you don't believe me, then download a stream of the movie and watch for yourself. Their language skills, intelligence, size, speed, caste system, etc are all the same.

Holy **** man have you seen any science fiction ever? When writers and directors want to create very "alien" aliens, they do it. They make things different whenever it's desirable to do so: Avatar, District 9, Alien, Babylon 5, etc. All species which are neurologically distinct from humans. Goyer and Snyder could have made Kryptonians different, but they chose not to do so. So lose the "they're not humans" argument.

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Old 09-28-2013, 02:17 PM   #233
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

I feel the bigger question here isn't "How did Jor-El a scientist beat Zod the warrior" but "Why the movie needed Jor-El a scientist to beat Zod the warrior"?

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Old 09-28-2013, 07:07 PM   #234
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I feel the bigger question here isn't "How did Jor-El a scientist beat Zod the warrior" but "Why the movie needed Jor-El a scientist to beat Zod the warrior"?
Because they wanted to make Jor-El as badass as possible.
- He's a brilliant scientist, he invents the phantom drive and the USB-brain;
- He's a great political theorist, he's able to diagnose the decline of Krypton, to see the coup d'etat as irrelevant;
- He can see the problems in his society in spite of being in a position of privilege;
- He is respected enough that he has the ruling counci'ls ear;
- He's a tremendous athlete, witness the steal the codex sequence;
- He's a tremendous warrior, witness the fight sequence with Zod;
- He's the most eloquent character in the movie, he either has the most dialogue or close to it;
- He is the greatest hero in the story. He saves Kal-El's life three times, by sending him off Krypton, by helping him and Lois get off the Kryptonian ship, and by telling them how to create a portal to the phantom zone;
- He is charismatic. A few minutes of conversation with him, telling him to reveal himself to the world, undoes two decades of his father, Jonathan Kent, telling him to conceal himself;
- He has more lines and more of a visible role than Jonathan, Martha, and Lara combined, in spite of arguably being the intrinsically least interesting character;
- He might have more words of dialogue than anybody else in the movie;

It's actually quite silly, silly in the extreme, to make him the best-developed character in the story, it should obviously be Clark. The "Man of the Steel" in the title could easily refer to Jor-El's idiotic-looking combat outfit. Some of the items in the bulleted list were necessary, but overall it isn't. I hope we never see or hear from Jor-El again in any subsequent instalments. He took up way too much space in this movie.

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Artificial population control was established. The outposts and space exploration were abandoned. We exhausted our natural resources. As a result, our planet's core became unstable. Eventually, our military leader, General Zod, attempted a coup, but by then it was too late. Your mother and I foresaw the coming calamity and we took certain steps to ensure your survival. This is a genesis chamber. All Kryptonians were conceived in chambers such as this. Every child was designed to perform a predetermined role in our society as a worker, a warrior, a leader, and so on. Your mother and I believed Krypton lost something precious: the element of choice, of chance. What if a child dreamed of becoming something other than what society had intended? What if a child aspired to something greater? You were the embodiment of that belief, Kal. Krypton's first natural birth in centuries. That's why we risked so much to save you. ...

Your name is Kal-El. You are the only survivor of the planet Krypton. Even though you've been raised as a human, you are not one of them. You have great powers, only some of which you have as yet discovered. This is no fantasy - no careless product of wild imagination. No, my friends. These indictments that I have brought to you today, specific charges herein against the individuals. Their acts of treason, their ultimate aim of sedition. These... are matters of undeniable fact. I ask you now to pronounce judgement on those accused. Live as one of them, Kal-El, to discover where your strength and your power are needed. Always hold in your heart the pride of your special heritage. They can be a great people, Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you... my only son.
God forbid that Superman, Clark, or Lois get the most diligently written speeches in a Superman movie .

It ties in to the common criticism of Goyer, that he cares more about mythology than character development. We know that in the Nolan Batman movie he was always trying to add more characters. We also know what happened in Blade III, where he had total control, he went for a more complicated plot. Now, with Batman vs Superman, they got rid of Jor-El (thank goodness) and Jonathan Kent... so they are adding in Batman, possibly Lex, possibly Wonder Woman, possibly Kara... they're just trying to get in as many characters as possible rather than developing the core characters.

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Old 09-28-2013, 07:11 PM   #235
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Because they wanted to make Jor-El as badass as possible.
- He's a brilliant scientist, he invents the phantom drive and the USB-brain;
- He's a great political theorist, he's able to diagnose the decline of Krypton, to see the coup d'etat as irrelevant;
- He can see the problems in his society in spite of being in a position of privilege;
- He is respected enough that he has the ruling counci'ls ear;
- He's a tremendous athlete, witness the steal the codex sequence;
- He's a tremendous warrior, witness the fight sequence with Zod;
- He's the most eloquent character in the movie, he either has the most dialogue or close to it;
- He is the greatest hero in the story. He saves Kal-El's life three times, by sending him off Krypton, by helping him and Lois get off the Kryptonian ship, and by telling them how to create a portal to the phantom zone;
- He is charismatic. A few minutes of conversation with him, telling him to reveal himself to the world, undoes two decades of his father, Jonathan Kent, telling him to conceal himself;
- He has more lines and more of a visible role than Jonathan, Martha, and Lara combined, in spite of arguably being the intrinsically least interesting character;
- He might have more words of dialogue than anybody else in the movie;

It's actually quite silly, silly in the extreme, to make him the best-developed character in the story, it should obviously be Clark. The "Man of the Steel" in the title could easily refer to Jor-El's idiotic-looking combat outfit. Some of the items in the bulleted list were necessary, but overall it isn't. I hope we never see or hear from Jor-El again in any subsequent instalments. He took up way too much space in this movie.


God forbid that Superman, Clark, or Lois get the most diligently written speeches in a Superman movie .

It ties in to the common criticism of Goyer, that he cares more about mythology than character development. We know that in the Nolan Batman movie he was always trying to add more characters. We also know what happened in Blade III, where he had total control, he went for a more complicated plot. Now, with Batman vs Superman, they got rid of Jor-El (thank goodness) and Jonathan Kent... so they are adding in Batman, possibly Lex, possibly Wonder Woman, possibly Kara... they're just trying to get in as many characters as possible rather than developing the core characters.
I feel like Goyer is trying to aim for the prestige of Nolan by using an overly complicated plot device seems to have forgotten what he was capable of by letting things be simple and allow the characters to breathe (BB).

And Snyder went wild with the editing. I think that he's best suited for a simplistic good vs evil story, and so if BvS is that, I think he'll pull it off.

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Old 09-28-2013, 11:07 PM   #236
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I don’t see how Superman killing Zod was poorly executed. What was poorly executed about it, exactly? People seem to confuse the event itself with an actual arc, and are judging a single moment on whether it was handled well as a character arc.

But it wasn't.

There was no arc in that regard. The arc Superman will undergo as a character has just begun. Superman likely never had to consider that he would ever need to use his powers in the ways he has. That he could be a force of destruction as well as a savior. That it comes as a shock is kind of the whole point.

Was it perfectly executed? Perhaps not, but still, I’m hard pressed to think of a moment in a superhero film that brought more gravitas or pure emotion to the concept of a superhero killing or having to stop a villain.

I could really care less what Mark Waid thinks about it, because other than the fact that it's ultimately just another opinion, his argument is also full of the same fallacies a lot of fanboys have been spouting (Why couldn’t Superman take Zod elsewhere? Come on, people, use your brains).

David Goyer wasn’t just making an outright Jesus/Christ Figure allegory. He was depicting Superman as a savior, period. Jesus is shorthand for that in a lot of Western cultures, hence the imagery in the church, but we didn't exactly see the story of Christ onscreen. The story of Superman combines both Moses and Jesus and classic savior elements, and I think we saw elements of both.

The whole Superman killing thing...and starting there...I look at it as something of a nod to the evolution of Superman in the comics. Superman started out as a violent, vengeful and often angry character. He settled down, and has become more compassionate, forgiving and focused on redemption over the years.

And I’m not a big fan of the montage at the end of THE AVENGERS because I find it really obvious, quite pandering and eventually saccharine.

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Old 09-28-2013, 11:23 PM   #237
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Because they wanted to make Jor-El as badass as possible.
- He's a brilliant scientist, he invents the phantom drive and the USB-brain;
- He's a great political theorist, he's able to diagnose the decline of Krypton, to see the coup d'etat as irrelevant;
- He can see the problems in his society in spite of being in a position of privilege;
- He is respected enough that he has the ruling counci'ls ear;
- He's a tremendous athlete, witness the steal the codex sequence;
- He's a tremendous warrior, witness the fight sequence with Zod;
- He's the most eloquent character in the movie, he either has the most dialogue or close to it;
- He is the greatest hero in the story. He saves Kal-El's life three times, by sending him off Krypton, by helping him and Lois get off the Kryptonian ship, and by telling them how to create a portal to the phantom zone;
- He is charismatic. A few minutes of conversation with him, telling him to reveal himself to the world, undoes two decades of his father, Jonathan Kent, telling him to conceal himself;
- He has more lines and more of a visible role than Jonathan, Martha, and Lara combined, in spite of arguably being the intrinsically least interesting character;
- He might have more words of dialogue than anybody else in the movie;

It's actually quite silly, silly in the extreme, to make him the best-developed character in the story, it should obviously be Clark. The "Man of the Steel" in the title could easily refer to Jor-El's idiotic-looking combat outfit. Some of the items in the bulleted list were necessary, but overall it isn't. I hope we never see or hear from Jor-El again in any subsequent instalments. He took up way too much space in this movie.
I think this is the crux of it. Making Jor-El kick ass was cool and it showcased how much of a radical and iconoclast he is in regards to Kryptonian principles, and this works to provide depth to Clark's character to an extent, i.e., Clark is a product of choice.

But the movie overstates how much of a badass he is, to the detriment of screentime for Clark. Half of the movie is practically Jor-El: Ghost Protocol.


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Old 09-28-2013, 11:27 PM   #238
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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I feel like Goyer is trying to aim for the prestige of Nolan by using an overly complicated plot device seems to have forgotten what he was capable of by letting things be simple and allow the characters to breathe (BB).

And Snyder went wild with the editing. I think that he's best suited for a simplistic good vs evil story, and so if BvS is that, I think he'll pull it off.
I feel Snyder and Goyer should always have a Nolan close by in their movies. When Goyer writes, the older Nolan directs. If Snyder directs, the younger Nolan writes.

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Old 09-28-2013, 11:28 PM   #239
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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I could really care less what Mark Waid thinks about it, because other than the fact that it's ultimately just another opinion
Sure, if you want to live in a fantasy world where all opinions are equally valid, then tell yourself that.

Truth is, contrary to what you were taught in high school, some opinions are worth a lot more than others, that's the reality. Waid is more successful, he has a lot of experience, he's well-regarded, and even Goyer decided to copy a lot of his ideas. His opinion on Superman is simply worth more, in the same way that a good civil engineer's opinion on a building is worth more, and a good doctor's opinion on a medical situation is worth more. Waid isn't just a professional writer, he's a good one.

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his argument is also full of the same fallacies a lot of fanboys have been spouting
Tell yourself that rather than pause and seriously consider why you're the one failing to grasp the depth of his points. You're completely ignoring the possibility that it's your own failure to understand -- you just immediately assume it's Waid's failure. That is incredibly arrogant.

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Old 09-28-2013, 11:38 PM   #240
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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I think this is the crux of it. Making Jor-El kick ass was cool and it showcased how much of a radical and iconoclast he is in regards to Kryptonian principles, and this works to provide depth to Clark's character to an extent, i.e., Clark is a product of choice.

But the movie overstates how much of a badass he is. Half of the movie is practically Jor-El: Ghost Protocol.
I I'm coming of as excessive, it's because this is a pet peeve of mine. These ridiculous science fiction characters who are good at everything. I also rolled my eyes at Star Trek into Darkness for having Khan Noonien-Singh design the Vengeance in a couple years after spending 300 years in stasis. I found that more annoying than Jor-El actually. Overall, it is simply lazy and/or incompetent writing to write the ultimate badass. People have flaws, and how they succeed and fail to compensate for those flaws is a large part of what makes them interesting. There's also no such thing as comprehensive perfection, and there never will be.

The movie would have been better if Lara had had some of Jor-El's characterisation, and if Jor-El had had some flaws, and if Martha and Jonathan had been secondary rather than tertiary characters.


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Old 09-28-2013, 11:48 PM   #241
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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This is fantasy, and the rule is: Kryptonians are indistinguishable from humans other than the fact they get powers under a yellow sun (and possibly increased lung capacity). That's all there is to it.
Yes, it's fantasy. You're oversimplifying what you define as "the rule" however. Over the years, many a comic book writer have sought to expand on or delve into the physics of Superman. It has been said, time and again, that Kryptonians possess an advanced physical and intellectual competence. If any so-called "rule" exists in the world of science-fiction and fantasy, it's that aliens are always superior -- in some fashion -- to the human race.

Onscreen (or in comic book panels), humanoid aliens may appear to be no different from us for the reasons you pointed out, but, audiences are nevertheless expected to see beyond those similarities and accept what is being sold in the narrative. Likewise, in Man of Steel, a film which blends fantasy and sci-fi, the producers want you to focus on the otherworldly concepts they've adapted or created (e.g., the Phantom Zone, the Growth Codex, the powered exoskeleton suits) so as to make the aforementioned Kryptonians a bit more discernible from us. They want you to suspend your disbelief and accept the contradiction -- that beings who appear no more advanced than we are can somehow still manage to accomplish unbelievable feats of wonder, and if they can do that, they must be beyond our ken.

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We're not supposed to "interpret", and neither does Goyer. Holy **** man have you seen any science fiction ever? When writers and directors want to create very "alien" aliens, they do it. They make things different whenever it's desirable to do so: Avatar, District 9, Alien, Babylon 5, etc. All species which are neurologically distinct from humans. Goyer and Snyder could have made Kryptonians different, but they chose not to do so. So lose the "they're not humans" argument.
Indeed, extrapolation from the known is the norm when dealing with "pure" sci-fi content; and comic-to-film adaptations, of course, largely draw on fantasy elements and themes. As stated above, though, Man of Steel is a cross-genre film (or, at least, it tries to be).


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Kryptonians on Krypton are indistinguishable from human beings except for increased lung capacity. If you don't believe me, then download a stream of the movie and watch for yourself. Their language skills, intelligence, size, speed, caste system, etc are all the same.
"Except for increased lung capacity", Kryptonians and humans are the same? More than once, you claimed they are "exactly" the same.
Regardless, I already addressed why their similarities are meant to be overlooked to a certain extent. Hollywood wants viewers to accept the contradiction.

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Old 09-28-2013, 11:58 PM   #242
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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I I'm coming of as excessive, it's because this is a pet peeve of mine. These ridiculous science fiction characters who are good at everything. I also rolled my eyes at Star Trek into Darkness for having Khan Noonien-Singh design the Vengeance in a couple years after spending 300 years in stasis. I found that more annoying than Jor-El actually. Overall, it is simply lazy and/or incompetent writing to write the ultimate badass. People have flaws, and how they succeed and fail to compensate for those flaws is a large part of what makes them interesting. There's also no such thing as comprehensive perfection, and there never will be.
Ok using some gaming terms here: While Khan was overpowered and imba, it made movie sense as he's depicted as the overwhelming odds Kirk and crew had to overcome.

Jor-El was a badass at the expense of nerfing Zod, who's the movie's final boss. If you think about the escalating stakes, it doesn't make sense to have Zod nerfed the manner he was. The Smallville fight was personal -- Clark fends off two strong Kryptonian combatants to protect his mum and hometown. The Metropolis fight was for everybody, the whole world -- Clark fights the weakest boss in the end game.

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The movie would have been better if Lara had had some of Jor-El's characterisation, and if Jor-El had had some flaws, and if Martha and Jonathan had been secondary rather than tertiary characters.
No arguments from me here.

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Old 09-29-2013, 12:19 AM   #243
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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Tell yourself that rather than pause and seriously consider why you're the one failing to grasp the depth of his points. You're completely ignoring the possibility that it's your own failure to understand -- you just immediately assume it's Waid's failure. That is incredibly arrogant.
Who failed the what now?

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Old 09-29-2013, 12:26 AM   #244
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There was no arc in that regard. The arc Superman will undergo as a character has just begun. Superman likely never had to consider that he would ever need to use his powers in the ways he has. That he could be a force of destruction as well as a savior. That it comes as a shock is kind of the whole point.

Was it perfectly executed? Perhaps not, but still, I’m hard pressed to think of a moment in a superhero film that brought more gravitas or pure emotion to the concept of a superhero killing or having to stop a villain.

David Goyer wasn’t just making an outright Jesus/Christ Figure allegory. He was depicting Superman as a savior, period. Jesus is shorthand for that in a lot of Western cultures, hence the imagery in the church, but we didn't exactly see the story of Christ onscreen. The story of Superman combines both Moses and Jesus and classic savior elements, and I think we saw elements of both.

The whole Superman killing thing...and starting there...I look at it as something of a nod to the evolution of Superman in the comics. Superman started out as a violent, vengeful and often angry character. He settled down, and has become more compassionate, forgiving and focused on redemption over the years.
Apart from some points which I really didn't agree with (omitted them), I thought this was well put. Wish I had seen half the movie you saw.

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Old 09-29-2013, 12:29 AM   #245
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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Ok using some gaming terms here: While Khan was overpowered and imba, it made movie sense as he's depicted as the overwhelming odds Kirk and crew had to overcome.

Jor-El was a badass at the expense of nerfing Zod, who's the movie's final boss. If you think about the escalating stakes, it doesn't make sense to have Zod nerfed the manner he was. The Smallville fight was personal -- Clark fends off two strong Kryptonian combatants to protect his mum and hometown. The Metropolis fight was for everybody, the whole world -- Clark fights the weakest boss in the end game.



No arguments from me here.
Yup, Goyer simply didn't prioritize well. They tried to do everything in this movie: the fall of Krypton, Jor-El as the greatest badass in science fiction, growing up in Smallville, upbringing with the Kents, Clark travelling the world, Metropolis, Daily Planet, romantic relationship with Lois Lane, a theme about free will, a theme about genetic engineering vs evolution, relationship with the military, an hour of action set pieces against multiple villains and machines ....

Oops. The condition is: terminal. It's too bad. I hope we get another reboot in 10 years or so. They might need to start over as the foundations are extremely weak.

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Old 09-29-2013, 12:57 AM   #246
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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Yup, Goyer simply didn't prioritize well. They tried to do everything in this movie: the fall of Krypton, Jor-El as the greatest badass in science fiction, growing up in Smallville, upbringing with the Kents, Clark travelling the world, Metropolis, Daily Planet, romantic relationship with Lois Lane, a theme about free will, a theme about genetic engineering vs evolution, relationship with the military, an hour of action set pieces against multiple villains and machines ....

Oops. The condition is: terminal. It's too bad. I hope we get another reboot in 10 years or so. They might need to start over as the foundations are extremely weak.
See, I applaud Goyer for the sheer scope of the story; there was really just about everything you could want in a Superman live-action. But the movie strained under the weight of its ambitions. If Goyer wanted to tell the greatest cinematic superhero ever, he needed a Nolan at the helm. In the end, the movie came out as a Snyder-Nolan-Mallick collage -- which could have been brilliant. But the final product felt more mixed bag than beautiful medley.

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Old 09-29-2013, 01:53 AM   #247
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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See, I applaud Goyer for the sheer scope of the story; there was really just about everything you could want in a Superman live-action. But the movie strained under the weight of its ambitions. If Goyer wanted to tell the greatest cinematic superhero ever, he needed a Nolan at the helm. In the end, the movie came out as a Snyder-Nolan-Mallick collage -- which could have been brilliant. But the final product felt more mixed bag than beautiful medley.
Even with Nolan, his better works were the "less" ambitious ones. There's less in Batman Begins and The Dark Knight than in The Dark Knight Rises, and in the end, less is more. Batman Begins is arguably the greatest of all origin films, and it accomplished less in the superficial sense, it doesn't try and have the most complicated plot like MoS did. In general, Nolan's films (Memento, Inception, Prestige) are very focused and deep. The Dark Knight is about a single point: that Gotham needs a hero. What kind of hero? How would they act without that hero? Can that hero maintain his image? It all relates to that primary point.

I certainly don't blame Snyder for the film's failings. Snyder added a great cast, look, score, etc to Goyer's flawed script, great trailers (typical of Snyder's films), and thus in a way may have rescued Goyer. I really think Snyder did a very good job with this film, I give him a B+ or A-. I give Goyer an F.

Moving forward, all indications are of a more complex plot in the sequel.


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Old 09-29-2013, 02:01 AM   #248
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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Even with Nolan, his better works were the "less" ambitious ones. There's less in Batman Begins and The Dark Knight than in The Dark Knight Rises, and in the end, less is more. Batman Begins is arguably the greatest of all origin films, and it accomplished less in the superficial sense, it doesn't try and have the most complicated plot like MoS did. In general, Nolan's films (Memento, Inception, Prestige) are very focused and deep. The Dark Knight is about a single point: that Gotham needs a hero. What kind of hero? How would they act without that hero? Can that hero maintain his image? It all relates to that primary point.

I certainly don't blame Snyder for the film's failings. Snyder added a great cast, look, score, etc to Goyer's flawed script, great trailers (typical of Snyder's films), and thus in a way may have rescued Goyer. I really think Snyder did a very good job with this film, I give him a B+ or A-. I give Goyer an F.

Moving forward, all indications are of a more complex plot in the sequel.
I agree with much of this. If I was to rate Goyer's script, though, I'd maybe give him a C-.

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Old 09-29-2013, 02:26 AM   #249
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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Even with Nolan, his better works were the "less" ambitious ones. There's less in Batman Begins and The Dark Knight than in The Dark Knight Rises, and in the end, less is more. Batman Begins is arguably the greatest of all origin films, and it accomplished less in the superficial sense, it doesn't try and have the most complicated plot like MoS did. In general, Nolan's films (Memento, Inception, Prestige) are very focused and deep. The Dark Knight is about a single point: that Gotham needs a hero. What kind of hero? How would they act without that hero? Can that hero maintain his image? It all relates to that primary point.

I certainly don't blame Snyder for the film's failings. Snyder added a great cast, look, score, etc to Goyer's flawed script, great trailers (typical of Snyder's films), and thus in a way may have rescued Goyer. I really think Snyder did a very good job with this film, I give him a B+ or A-. I give Goyer an F.
Basically, Goyer needs a Nolan. Snyder and Goyer have their strengths individually, but as a creative partnership, the synergy is missing.

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Moving forward, all indications are of a more complex plot in the sequel.
Yeah, which is a scary thought. If the plot device of the codex is a contrivance, imagine the device(s) needed to make the circumstances leading to the Batman vs Superman clash believable.

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I agree with much of this. If I was to rate Goyer's script, though, I'd maybe give him a C-.
Same grade, though I'd give him an A- for story.

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Old 09-29-2013, 02:53 AM   #250
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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Basically, Goyer needs a Nolan. Snyder and Goyer have their strengths individually, but as a creative partnership, the synergy is missing.
I'd definitely like to see Goyer paired with someone else for scripting duties on the movie currently known as nothing, but I don't think Nolan is right for (the character of) Superman in particular.

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