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View Poll Results: How do you feel about Goyer writing the script for the first Superman Batman film
His work on MOS was VERY GOOD. He'll do GREAT. 27 20.45%
His work on MOS was OKAY. I am Skecptical. 30 22.73%
His work on MOS was POOR. I feel dread. 32 24.24%
He NEEDS Affleck's help and guidance to deliver a great script 43 32.58%
Voters: 132. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 09-30-2013, 05:03 PM   #301
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

^ I don't know. Killing off the villain is a CBM thing. It's harder to think of baddies who DON'T die.

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Old 09-30-2013, 05:36 PM   #302
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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Killing characters is risky, and more interesting in some ways. Besides, it's the comic book world. Who says Zod won't be animated by the third film and back to his usual evil self?
In the third movie, Michael Shannon could return as Bob, Zod's twin. Identical in all ways except he's more diabolical, more scheming, and has an evilier laugh. Ok, so maybe he's not exactly identical, but he brings the same threat to the table: world annihilation.

Will Superman kill? Will Superman embrace his messianism and forgive the bastwerd into submission?

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Old 09-30-2013, 06:15 PM   #303
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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I don't mind a mix of all those things. I do think in certain cases it makes more sense to have a bad guy die every now and then too, so it doesn't bother me.

Any of the situations can be done poorly, or done well. It just depends on the level of creativity, and how risky the writer wants to be.

Killing characters is risky, and more interesting in some ways. Besides, it's the comic book world. Who says Zod won't be animated by the third film and back to his usual evil self?
Hey Superman died and came back

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Old 09-30-2013, 07:10 PM   #304
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Hey Superman died and came back
I know. I'm totally rooting for that to happen in the films.

In the end though, they're pretend people, so it doesn't really, really bother me a lot what happens to the bad guys. Since we aren't supposed to kill the bad guys in RL, I don't mind watching evil, fictional *******s die on the big screen.

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Old 09-30-2013, 07:17 PM   #305
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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I know. I'm totally rooting for that to happen in the films.

In the end though, they're pretend people, so it doesn't really, really bother me a lot what happens to the bad guys. Since we aren't supposed to kill the bad guys in RL, I don't mind watching evil, fictional *******s die on the big screen.
Like Zod comes back because of some mucking Lex did and he looks like the Cyborg Superman

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Old 09-30-2013, 07:32 PM   #306
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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Like Zod comes back because of some mucking Lex did and he looks like the Cyborg Superman
Oooh, yes. That would be fun!

Back-from-the-dead is my second favorite trope, with the first being amnesia. I love terrible tropes.

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Old 09-30-2013, 07:39 PM   #307
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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Oooh, yes. That would be fun!

Back-from-the-dead is my second favorite trope, with the first being amnesia. I love terrible tropes.
What if he comes back from the dead and has amnesia....the he beats up Worf.

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Old 09-30-2013, 07:44 PM   #308
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What if he comes back from the dead and has amnesia....the he beats up Worf.
OORRRRR, Zod comes back from the dead, and thanks to a device by Luthor, gives Superman amnesia, and they turn him to their side.

And then they beat up Worf.

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Old 09-30-2013, 08:45 PM   #309
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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^ It's funny, when people finally bring up the idea of comic plot devices being used, it gets shot down by certain individuals. I'd rather there see enemies be trapped/depowered/redeemed then just killed. I find THAT more creative, but to each his own.
Redeeming would be a superb way to handle some villains, as it's not often seen, but not many are the redeemable type. For some, so would depowering (as long as it's not just Superman's "magic depower machine" introduced specifically just to depower the villain).

But resolving every film with a deus ex machina, as well as introducing conflict with one, because you made a mistake in the first one goes to show you're doing things badly.

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I don't mind a mix of all those things. I do think in certain cases it makes more sense to have a bad guy die every now and then too, so it doesn't bother me.

Any of the situations can be done poorly, or done well. It just depends on the level of creativity, and how risky the writer wants to be.

Killing characters is risky, and more interesting in some ways. Besides, it's the comic book world. Who says Zod won't be animated by the third film and back to his usual evil self?
Killing villains is fine. Most people don't have a problem with how most are done. But there was so much wrong with the death of Zod, from motivation (of the writers) to the direction.

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Old 09-30-2013, 09:53 PM   #310
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

Killing villains isn't just a comic book movie convention. It's an action movie staple, period.

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Old 09-30-2013, 09:53 PM   #311
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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Yeah, it was cool seeing Krypton come alive the way it did, but in respect to the theme that Krypton was a dead world in every sense (planet dying, society dying), maybe its visual vividness could have been toned down, e.g. omit the dragon.

Saying that, this isn't a knock on the film. A preference than any real issue.
I think the fact that we're told Krypton is sterile, but we're shown a Krypton that's dynamic, is a real knock on the film. What we're shown and what we're told should be consistent.

I was listening to the commentary for Pan's Labyrinth last night, a masterpiece from Guillermo Del Toro that has 96% on Rotten Tomatoes and won 3 oscars. Del Toro is a creative giant relative to Goyer, and he makes this comment:

"it's storytelling without words that interests me the most, I hate dialogue and I love storytelling with the camera";

Showing is as or more important than telling, and he goes on and on about the set design, and the colors, and the camera movement in his commentary. It's fascinating and brilliant, I recommend watching both the movie and the commentary. He makes several other brilliant comments btw.

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Old 09-30-2013, 09:59 PM   #312
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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I think the fact that we're told Krypton is sterile, but we're shown a Krypton that's dynamic, is a real knock on the film. What we're shown and what we're told should be consistent.
What was sterile about Krypton wasn't the planet but the civilization that lived their.

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Old 09-30-2013, 10:48 PM   #313
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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Killing villains is fine. Most people don't have a problem with how most are done. But there was so much wrong with the death of Zod, from motivation (of the writers) to the direction.
No, the problem people have with Zod's death is that they forgot that Superman has killed before. So they were all "Gasp! Superman doesn't kill!"

When people were reminded of that little fact, they flailed around until it became known that the script was rewritten to include Zod's death, and have used that as proof that the death was badly written. Or something.

Because rewrites never ever happen in films ever.

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Old 09-30-2013, 11:17 PM   #314
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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Who said Mark Waid is so 'wise'? My cousin is a highly published, well-known political commentator, and we only agree on a very thin line of beliefs. Just because someone is published, well-known, or has won an accolades for their work doesn't make them always right.

Doesn't mean that they're necessarily wrong, but I'm not going to allow their opinions to run my life.

In particular, I find Mark Waid and Grant Morrison's comments about Superman to be silly, simply because the comics don't support their statements. If Superman had NEVER EVER killed before, I might be more in line with them, but since he has killed before, I pretty much dismiss what they have to say.

If you liked MOS, you shouldn't have let some guy you don't even know influence you.

By the way, out of curiosity, if you read a review by someone who is into theology, and they liked MOS's Jesus references, would that change your opinion too? After all, if someone who studies theology appreciates MOS, they're wiser than you, and you should defer to their opinion, correct?

What about if you come across any positive review, or a mix of positive and negative? How does that shape your opinion on MOS?



Yes and no. Every situation in every film or story is a plot device. If it's done well, it won't feel like one (even though we're aware that's what it is). Superman has killed in the comics before. And he's managed to not kill every enemy afterwards. Is that too plot devicy for you as well?



Superman has killed at least twice in the comics before. They could do another no-win situation. I suspect though, that what will happen in the next 'no-win' situation, is a major sacrifice on his part. Either Superman dies, or he appears to die, or he becomes depowered in some manner.

I'm only guessing, of course, but that's how I would go about it. There are still plenty of stories to be told, or retold in the films. Killing Zod is not an end to that creativity.

I'd rather have the killing of a bad guy done in the first film, and use the other films to explore any potential emotional fall-out from it, than to establish Superman as a guy who doesn't kill, who, in the last film of the franchise, suddenly has no other option. And then we wouldn't get a satisfactory amount of time to deal with all the implications and problems that could bring.

Now, we've already had a death. Now we get Superman to figure out how he won't kill again. Maybe he vows to never kill again, and then he's pushed to the point where he has not other option again. How would he deal with that? Will he be able to avoid killing again? Should he avoid killing again? Should he have killed Zod sooner? Could he have done things differently? How is he handling the immense power he weilds over pretty much any threat he faces?

These are all interesting questions that can now be explored in the next few films. Or ignored, at the whim of the writers/directors/studio. We'll see what happens.

You've confused choice with free will. A Kryptonian's occupation is decided at birth. They receive special enhancements so that they may fulfill their particular jobs.

There is nothing in the film that suggests that Krypton took away free will from people. So they can still murder, fight, and learn other skills as they choose. It's just that Zod could never be a farmer, and Jor-El could never be a king, and Lara could never be a warrior. Those aren't their occupations, they aren't allowed to be anything else.

And what's interesting here is that there is a contradiction in what Jor-El has planned for Clark, and in his own beliefs. He wants Clark to be a leader, and a bridge for the Kryptonian people. I don't know that he wants Clark to rule Earth, but I do think he has his ambitions for Clark to be in a position of power.

Jonathan Kent has smaller ambitions; he knows Clark will probably be a leader some day -- although I get the sense he doesn't want Clark to be a leader at all. He wants Clark to remain anonymous, and find a more 'human' way to help people.

What's fun is that Clark ultimately embraces both desires of his fathers, but at the same time, he does it on his own terms. He chooses how he will help, and what life he's going to lead.
Very good points here, Tempest.

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Old 10-01-2013, 05:08 AM   #315
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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I think the fact that we're told Krypton is sterile, but we're shown a Krypton that's dynamic, is a real knock on the film. What we're shown and what we're told should be consistent.

I was listening to the commentary for Pan's Labyrinth last night, a masterpiece from Guillermo Del Toro that has 96% on Rotten Tomatoes and won 3 oscars. Del Toro is a creative giant relative to Goyer, and he makes this comment:

"it's storytelling without words that interests me the most, I hate dialogue and I love storytelling with the camera";

Showing is as or more important than telling, and he goes on and on about the set design, and the colors, and the camera movement in his commentary. It's fascinating and brilliant, I recommend watching both the movie and the commentary. He makes several other brilliant comments btw.
I took the sterility on krypton to be merely in terms of progress, which it seemed like it was.

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Old 10-01-2013, 01:20 PM   #316
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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The point is, your explanation for why other people disagree with you is consistently that they are dumb.

That's not it. The consensus of legitimate criticisms against the film and the script among professional critics, a lot of forum posters, people who work in the industry, et cetera is not due to people being less intelligent and less wise to you. If you see someone wiser than you, like Mark Waid, state a point of you that is different from your own, you should pause and reflect, really seriously reflect, rather than say "fallacies spouted by a fanboy who should use his brain".

I came out of the theatre liking the movie. I looked up Mark Waid's review. I didn't know who he was. I thought "dumb arguments"... then I looked up who he was, I decided to read the arguments again and pay more careful attention. I understood that his opinion was worth more than mine, and that if there was a disagreement, it was probably my failure to understand and not his failure to explain. He wrote one of the most celebrated Superman novels, surely if I was dismissing his views so casually, the problem was with me and not with him. You, on the other hand, simply assume he's making dumb arguments.

And on that note, you're going on my ignore list. I have no time for somebody so closed-minded and intellectually arrogant.


Congratulations! You are an intelligent human being! That's more than 95% of posters on these boards can say.

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Old 10-01-2013, 01:35 PM   #317
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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I came out of the theatre liking the movie. I looked up Mark Waid's review. I didn't know who he was. I thought "dumb arguments"... then I looked up who he was, I decided to read the arguments again and pay more careful attention. I understood that his opinion was worth more than mine, and that if there was a disagreement, it was probably my failure to understand and not his failure to explain. He wrote one of the most celebrated Superman novels, surely if I was dismissing his views so casually, the problem was with me and not with him. You, on the other hand, simply assume he's making dumb arguments.
I was with you until here. Sorry but no one's opinion is worth more than anyone else's. We are not supposed to like all the same things. Mark Waid's opinion is no more valid than anyone else's. If you liked the movie then like the movie. It is an OPINION..it cannot be right or wrong.

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Old 10-01-2013, 02:06 PM   #318
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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I was with you until here. Sorry but no one's opinion is worth more than anyone else's. We are not supposed to like all the same things. Mark Waid's opinion is no more valid than anyone else's. If you liked the movie then like the movie. It is an OPINION..it cannot be right or wrong.
Wrong. Not all opinions are equal. That is a feel-good fallacy. There are informed opinions and uninformed opinions. Frankly, it's ignorant to think your opinion (on writing expertise, character work, etc...) is equal to that of someone who has spent years studying, working, practicing and mastering their respective craft. While I wouldn't call Mark Waid a "master" of his craft (He's not the best example, but since he's the one being used...), he certainly knows a thing or two more about writing and characters than anyone on these boards (that's evident through even a cursory reading of the comments and responses).

It's a sign of intelligence to realize that there are people who know more about/are better at certain certain things than you are and understanding that you can stand to learn something from what they have to say.

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Old 10-01-2013, 02:15 PM   #319
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Wrong. Not all opinions are equal. That is a feel-good fallacy. There are informed opinions and uninformed opinions. Frankly, it's ignorant to think your opinion (on writing expertise, character work, etc...) is equal to that of someone who has spent years studying, working, practicing and mastering their respective craft. While I wouldn't call Mark Waid a "master" of his craft (He's not the best example, but since he's the one being used...), he certainly knows a thing or two more about writing and characters than anyone on these boards (that's evident through even a cursory reading of the comments and responses).

It's a sign of intelligence to realize that there are people who know more about/are better at certain certain things than you are and understanding that you can stand to learn something from what they have to say.
Doesn't matter. They're all still opinions. There are plenty of people who study and know certain subject matters backwards and forwards that I still wouldn't give the time of day to, no matter how learned they are in their field.

An opinion isn't fact. Besides, since Mark Waid was quite uninformed, or somehow forgot about Superman's killings in the past, he probably has other aspects of Superman incorrect as well. It's best to lean too much on what he has to say if he can't keep his facts straight.

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Old 10-01-2013, 02:18 PM   #320
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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Wrong. Not all opinions are equal. That is a feel-good fallacy. There are informed opinions and uninformed opinions. Frankly, it's ignorant to think your opinion (on writing expertise, character work, etc...) is equal to that of someone who has spent years studying, working, practicing and mastering their respective craft. While I wouldn't call Mark Waid a "master" of his craft (He's not the best example, but since he's the one being used...), he certainly knows a thing or two more about writing and characters than anyone on these boards (that's evident through even a cursory reading of the comments and responses).

It's a sign of intelligence to realize that there are people who know more about/are better at certain certain things than you are and understanding that you can stand to learn something from what they have to say.
Opinions should be treated as opinions, not facts. I don't know why everyone on this forum act like they hold their opinions as facts.

Everyone have right to hate or like this movie and argue whether it is good, bad, or meh. Again, Opinions are opinions.

My point is opinions should be still treated as opinions, not facts. Just saying.

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Old 10-01-2013, 02:26 PM   #321
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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Wrong. Not all opinions are equal. There are informed opinions and uninformed opinions. Frankly, it's ignorant to think your opinion (on writing expertise, character work, etc...) is equal to that of someone who has spent years studying, working, practicing and mastering their respective craft. While I wouldn't call Mark Waid a "master" of his craft (He's not the best example, but since he's the one being used...), he certainly knows a thing or two more about writing and characters than anyone on these boards (that's evident through even a cursory reading of the comments and responses).

It's a sign of intelligence to realize that there are people who know more about/are better at certain certain things than you are and understanding that you can stand to learn something from what they have to say.
Sorry but you are confusing quite a bit here. An opinion cannot be right or wrong. I may like apples but just because someone is an apple grower shouldn't change how I feel about apples. I respect Mark Waid. I like him as a writer and met him a few times. He's a really humble and cool person. That being said he is saying his opinion.
Yes it is a sign of intelligence to realize people know more about things than me (my background: I hold a Master's degree in creative writing with a slant towards screenwriting and a Bachelor's degree in film...not bragging but I want you to see that not everyone who posts on this site are pimply faced nerds living in their mom's basements. Some of us know what we are talking about). But you are confusing "opinion" with "knowledge". Mark knows more about writing comics than I do. I acknowledge that. Mark's expertise as a comic writer should not trump my feelings about what I like.
Mark has never written a movie script and I have written several...plus studied screenwriting. Does my expertise trump Mark's feelings of what movies he likes?
NO.
Its an opinion and nothing anyone can tell me will convince me that apples aren't delicious.

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Old 10-01-2013, 02:29 PM   #322
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Doesn't matter. They're all still opinions. There are plenty of people who study and know certain subject matters backwards and forwards that I still wouldn't give the time of day to, no matter how learned they are in their field.
This makes no sense.

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An opinion isn't fact. Besides, since Mark Waid was quite uninformed, or somehow forgot about Superman's killings in the past, he probably has other aspects of Superman incorrect as well. It's best to lean too much on what he has to say if he can't keep his facts straight.
Mark Waid is a HUGE fan of the character and understands storytelling and character arcs. 99% of posters on these boards do not. I'll take what this guy (who has been practicing his craft for 30 years) says over some anonymous poster who understands nothing about what makes a good story or character arc. Informed > Uninformed

What "killings"? Like otherworlds stuff? Just because something appeared in one comic or was a poor creative decision, does not mean it should define the character. I love the apologists assuring themselves that because something was "in the comics" (whether it was good/bad/made sense), it's perfectly okay. There was an issue of the comics where superman transformed into an ape. I have a feeling a lot of the apologist fans would be fine seeing this on film as long as they were reassured that it was "in the comics".

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Old 10-01-2013, 02:36 PM   #323
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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This makes no sense.



Mark Waid is a HUGE fan of the character and understands storytelling and character arcs. 99% of posters on these boards do not. I'll take what this guy (who has been practicing his craft for 30 years) says over some anonymous poster who understands nothing about what makes a good story or character arc. Informed > Uninformed

What "killings"? Like otherworlds stuff? Just because something appeared in one comic or was a poor creative decision, does not mean it should define the character. I love the apologists assuring themselves that because something was "in the comics" (whether it was good/bad/made sense), it's perfectly okay. There was an issue of the comics where superman transformed into an ape. I have a feeling a lot of the apologist fans would be fine seeing this on film as long as they were reassured that it was "in the comics".
Well considering how I have a Master's Degree in Creative Writing and have been screenwriting for 10 years now, my informed opinion trumps your uninformed opinion. Man of Steel was a good film. That is all.

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Old 10-01-2013, 02:39 PM   #324
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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Originally Posted by roach View Post
Sorry but you are confusing quite a bit here. An opinion cannot be right or wrong. I may like apples but just because someone is an apple grower shouldn't change how I feel about apples.
I never said right or wrong. I said informed or uninformed. They are different. Not nearly so black and white.

Quote:
Originally Posted by roach View Post
I respect Mark Waid. I like him as a writer and met him a few times. He's a really humble and cool person. That being said he is saying his opinion.
Yes it is a sign of intelligence to realize people know more about things than me (my background: I hold a Master's degree in creative writing with a slant towards screenwriting and a Bachelor's degree in film...not bragging but I want you to see that not everyone who posts on this site are pimply faced nerds living in their mom's basements. Some of us know what we are talking about). But you are confusing "opinion" with "knowledge". Mark knows more about writing comics than I do. I acknowledge that. Mark's expertise as a comic writer should not trump my feelings about what I like.
Mark has never written a movie script and I have written several...plus studied screenwriting. Does my expertise trump Mark's feelings of what movies he likes?
NO.
Yes, but knowledge informs opinion. While I don't think Mark Waid is the greatest writer, his informed understanding of the character holds more weight and meaning for me than any of the ridiculous apologist reasoning I've seen on these boards (nonse of which make any real sense, thematically or character wise).

Quote:
Originally Posted by roach View Post
Its an opinion and nothing anyone can tell me will convince me that apples aren't delicious.
It's not about "convincing" you otherwise. It's about taking this other, knowledgable individuals wisdom and adding it to your understanding of said idea/concept.

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Old 10-01-2013, 02:42 PM   #325
Krumm
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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Originally Posted by Vid Electricz View Post
This makes no sense.



Mark Waid is a HUGE fan of the character and understands storytelling and character arcs. 99% of posters on these boards do not. I'll take what this guy (who has been practicing his craft for 30 years) says over some anonymous poster who understands nothing about what makes a good story or character arc. Informed > Uninformed

What "killings"? Like otherworlds stuff? Just because something appeared in one comic or was a poor creative decision, does not mean it should define the character. I love the apologists assuring themselves that because something was "in the comics" (whether it was good/bad/made sense), it's perfectly okay. There was an issue of the comics where superman transformed into an ape. I have a feeling a lot of the apologist fans would be fine seeing this on film as long as they were reassured that it was "in the comics".
And there is where I take some issue with Waid's opinion. He is extremely invested in the character, much more so than a typical fan seeing as he has written for Superman and at such high level.

I take his opinion, while informed, from a place of extreme passion and thereby a little biased.

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