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View Poll Results: How do you feel about Goyer writing the script for the first Superman Batman film
His work on MOS was VERY GOOD. He'll do GREAT. 27 20.45%
His work on MOS was OKAY. I am Skecptical. 30 22.73%
His work on MOS was POOR. I feel dread. 32 24.24%
He NEEDS Affleck's help and guidance to deliver a great script 43 32.58%
Voters: 132. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 10-03-2013, 01:48 AM   #601
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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Not so much the same acts, but the same intentions. Superman's intentions. I'd have liked to have seen Clark literally trying to catch his breath. The choreography was lacking in this regard, the overpowering menace of Zod's threat that needed for him to be put down. It needed to be more visceral, raw than the videogamey sequence we got.

(Can't remember the Doomsday fight. I might want to reread it now you've brought it up!)
His intention could be there without him being able to act upon it. I seriously wonder if there are people in audience that think superman is actually fighting for his own life in these moments(considering he's offered up his life for man previously in the film I find that unlikely. What you are asking for isn't for him to ACT differently but for the script to be designed as such. That's where criticism on his character fall apart. He acted like superman would in the exact situation and that's all that can be asked of characterization, truth. Whether or not a different situation would be "better" is debatable.
Watch the animated featured based on it while you are at it, considering the lack of internal dialogue format in these films, it's even more comparable.

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Certainly. But a huge difference from any other traditional final boss fight is that Superman tends to fight the insurmountable odds for the people. To reference Rocky again, a Superman final boss fight is like Rocky in the ring with Drago -- and with Adrian and Duke -- with Rocky attempting to stop the Siberian Bull from hurting the ones he care for, the people. All in the same ring!
Superman did fight crazy odds and he did it for the people. Don't see how your rocky reference applies here, Ivan didn't try and hurt people and superman did face stacked odds and greater numbers
Are you talking about being an underdog?

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This is Superman, after all, a degree of lore conditioning, rightly or wrongly, is to be expected in the audience. Who went in the theatre not thinking it was a story about Superman, but a story about a man literally being made of steel?
Lore conditioning has no place in objective film criticism. Because you then you have to account for each member of your audience and what they bring to the experience individually. Films need to be judge objectively otherwise the RT score and all that stuff would need to be adjusted and personalized for the individual reading. When a critic puts out a review, he theoretically puts it out there for the "average jane" otherwise he would have to highlight to whom his review is for each and every time as opposed to for everyone/anyone. In this case, fans of superman two vs new audiences..Same applies to the filmmaker.
Unless you are making a sequel, you cant make a film assuming your crowd knows all about captain america's powers and disposition. You gotta make it for everyone in spite of the group that suffers from conditioning.
This goes double for the poor saps coming from adam west. Just cause they expect the bat computer to print out some bs plot device and robin to help with a riddle doesn't mean the film needs to cater, I digress.
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But that's Wolverine's MO. He snuck away from the main group to search for Stryker and found Lady Deathstrike. He's a lone wolf through and through.
The design of the fight is missing the two elements you explained where needed to help tension in this superman fight, mortality and saving people. That fight didn't have those things and it did fine based on the simple fact that it had what was technically needed for a fight, objectively.

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We just have to agree to disagree here.
Hard to disagree on facts.

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Well, STM2 is another animal, and a discussion deserving of its own thread. Logic in a movie, especially a Superman movie, is dependent on purpose of story though.
Of all the threads to point that out in.

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Old 10-03-2013, 01:52 AM   #602
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

http://voicesfromkrypton.net/superma...-man-of-steel/

James Tucker, who, like Goodman, has been writer/producer on various animated DC productions, among them Justice League, Legion of Superheroes, Batman: The Brave and the Bold and Superman Unbound, has his own theory about the challenges of the Man of Steel.

“I think people love Superman the way they love religion,” Tucker begins. “They don’t know him as a character, like people don’t love Jesus as a character. They love him as a concept, what he represents, which is an all-powerful, kind, pure, salt-of-the-earth icon. But as a character, as a flesh and blood, living, breathing person with a personality… they don’t really get that from him. He’s always more of an icon – he represents an ideal rather than an individual. That means people put on him their own aspirations, their own wishes. Much like religion, they twist Superman to be what they want him to be. So if they want him to be all-powerful and able to push planets out of the way, if you don’t show that they feel cheated. And if he’s not perfect in every way, if you show him vulnerable… We had this problem on Justice League where every time something happened to Superman, there was a complaint. But he has to be vulnerable to something or there’s no story, there’s nothing to overcome. We didn’t do as well as we could have, but we got better at it.”

He continues, “There hasn’t been a Superman story written or movie made where someone didn’t say, ‘Yeah, but he’s Superman, so he should have been able to blah, blah, blah.’ This last part was said before Man of Steel came out.

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Old 10-03-2013, 01:54 AM   #603
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Kryptonite does all sorts of things to him. From superman returns.......kinda stuff, to piercing his flesh thus making him instantaneously vulnerable...then there is the matter of the different colors..
Again, you are being selective.


...unless he's vulnerable to it.
No I am not being selective like I stated acceptable within the context of the established universe. Superman returns also got a lot if flack for the inconsistency in the effects of kryptonite. And if his vulnerable to it then his no longer Superman, also being Vulnerable to it shouldn't negate his power since he drinks in the rays of the yellow sun.

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Old 10-03-2013, 01:55 AM   #604
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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I am implying it makes no sense even within the accepted acknowledgment that this is a fictional world with fictional laws and science. If Superman started moving things with his mind and started reading minds. People would be up in arms about it because it's not what has been established for the character within the context of that fictional world. Superman already has a mythology and history behind his abilities that is widely accepted and acknowledged, the film even tries to emulate it but then switches it up for sake of plot. That to me is bad story writing and should be rightfully picked apart.
If superman developed telekinetic powers in this film without explanation I'm sure you'd be right(ironically his flight in MOS is essentially just that). Furthermore, you must not be familiar with the superman filmography or graphic novels. From building Chinese walls with his eyes to seeing souls...golden ages antics, the list goes on and on.
But that's beside the point.

More to the point, you are suggesting that if the film presented a new stipulation of his physiology based powers without any explanation there would be cause for criticism, that doesn't at all address the matter of if the film introduces a new stipulation of his physiology based powers with appropriate explanation.

I'm glad you mentioned what's rightly picked apart and isn't. In this case another form of being selective.

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No I am not being selective like I stated acceptable within the context of the established universe. Superman returns also got a lot if flack for the inconsistency in the effects of kryptonite. And if his vulnerable to it then his no longer Superman, also being Vulnerable to it shouldn't negate his power since he drinks in the rays of the yellow sun.
it's been done several and different way through the mythology. To purse this point further would be to pick and choose which continuities are worth being called valid and with aren't.
Another form of being selective.

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Old 10-03-2013, 02:03 AM   #605
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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http://voicesfromkrypton.net/superma...-man-of-steel/

He continues, ďThere hasnít been a Superman story written or movie made where someone didnít say, ĎYeah, but heís Superman, so he should have been able to blah, blah, blah.í This last part was said before Man of Steel came out.
truer words have never been spoken. And from an person with a valuable opinion no less.

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Old 10-03-2013, 02:07 AM   #606
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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No I am not being selective like I stated acceptable within the context of the established universe. Superman returns also got a lot if flack for the inconsistency in the effects of kryptonite. And if his vulnerable to it then his no longer Superman, also being Vulnerable to it shouldn't negate his power since he drinks in the rays of the yellow sun.
Kryptonite is the most inconsistent thing in the Superman universe. In Superman the movie, when the kryptonite is placed on him he falls into a pool and almost drowns. Yet in Superman Returns he is able to work through the weakness and lift an island. In the George Reeve series it gave him amnesia.

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Old 10-03-2013, 02:09 AM   #607
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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If superman developed telekinetic powers in this film without explanation I'm sure you'd be right(ironically his flight in MOS is essentially just that). Furthermore, you must not be familiar with the superman filmography or graphic novels. From building chinese walls with his eyes to seeing souls...golden ages antics, the list goes on and on.
But that's beside the point.

More to the point, you are suggesting that if the film presented a new stipulation of his physiology based powers without any explanation there would be cause for criticism, that doesn't at all address the matter of if the film introduces a new stipulation of his physiology based powers with appropriate explanation.

I'm glad you mentioned what's rightly picked apart and isn't. In this case another from of being selective.
Actually I am well versed in the Superman mythology dare I say probably even more than you, soul vision was nonsense and fans called it out to be that. Notice it hasn't been used Since and well the Reeves film had their cheese fest but STM still remains a better film than MOS. Appropriate explanation that contradicts itself yeah ok let's go with it. You still haven't given a some what logical response as to how atmospheric change would rid him of his abilities.

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Old 10-03-2013, 02:10 AM   #608
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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Actually I am well versed in the Superman mythology dare I say probably even more than you
Sounds like a challenge: Superman Off

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Old 10-03-2013, 02:22 AM   #609
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

If Damon Lindelof had written MoS there would be kryptonite, and it would have a different effect on Superman every 10 minutes :-)

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Old 10-03-2013, 02:26 AM   #610
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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Do you grasp that atmospheric change doesn't make a lick of sense as to why they would lose their power based on JorEl description to Clark on why he has powers. Again weak story telling, telling the audience one thing and then conveniently switching it up to suit a point in the story.
What if we assume jor el made a mistake, or does that break the rules of the universe?

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Old 10-03-2013, 02:26 AM   #611
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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His intention could be there without him being able to act upon it. I seriously wonder if there are people in audience that think superman is actually fighting for his own life in these moments(considering he's offered up his life for man previously in the film I find that unlikely. What you are asking for isn't for him to ACT differently but for the script to be designed as such. That's where criticism on his character fall apart. He acted like superman would in the exact situation and that's all that can be asked of characterization, truth. Whether or not a different situation would be "better" is debatable.
I'm asking for the script to be consistent with its own story. And I'm saying Superman didn't act in like he would in the exact situation because of how he was portrayed earlier. So criticism of his character's consistency holds true.

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Lore conditioning has no place in objective film criticism. Because you then you have to account for each member of your audience and what they bring to the experience individually. Films need to be judge objectively otherwise the RT score and all that stuff would need to be adjusted and personalized for the individual reading. When a critic puts out a review, he theoretically puts it out there for the "average jane" otherwise he would have to highlight to whom his review is for each and every time as opposed to for everyone/anyone. In this case, fans of superman two vs new audiences..Same applies to the filmmaker.
Objective film criticism, eh. How about the average Joe or Jane who doesn't read an objective review? And goes into the theatre with his or her preconceived perceptions of Superman. You can hardly ask the audience to check in their conditioning from 75 years of Superman lore at the counter along with their coats and jackets.

And why are we talking about objective film criticism? Aren't you digressing from your own point "I personally feel the audience suffers from lore conditioning to a point that the situation presented in this isn't being judged fairly" -- the audience suffering from lore conditioning?

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The design of the fight is missing the two elements you explained where needed to help tension in this superman fight, mortality and saving people.
Maybe because it's a Wolverine fight and we're talking about a Superman fight?

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Hard to disagree on facts.
Facts? Hardly. you gave your views on what went down, and said "good, good" I gave mine and said "bad, bad".

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Of all the threads to point that out in.
Well, yes. We're in a thread about the movie's screenwriter questioning his story's merits. Whatever irony you're trying to pull with your reply is obviously coming from some place else.


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Old 10-03-2013, 02:37 AM   #612
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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What if we assume jor el made a mistake, or does that break the rules of the universe?
Its simply implausible even for pseudo fictional science, atmospheric change in this case would be dealing with gases. It makes little to no sense it's even worst than the idea of solar radiation conversion. If your going to give something like that and try and explain it have it make sense within the context of the verse. Just rubbish writing all around that's all it is.

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Old 10-03-2013, 02:41 AM   #613
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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Actually I am well versed in the Superman mythology dare I say probably even more than you, soul vision was nonsense and fans called it out to be that. Notice it hasn't been used Since and well the Reeves film had their cheese fest but STM still remains a better film than MOS. Appropriate explanation that contradicts itself yeah ok let's go with it. You still haven't given a some what logical response as to how atmospheric change would rid him of his abilities.
Soul vision was met with initial and typical fan reception upon arrival(yay change), so were early chapters of that particular maxi, only to be remembered and constantly brought up by fans later(in this very thread). I'll take a wait and see approach to these new revelations and this new series. Still, I'm surprised waid(the man) could have missed the mark so hard on anything superman. Fans dismissed the lack of trucks too, doesn't make it any less a part of the mythology.

All those celebrated works, have been given the pass on their liberties based on a few things, but one in particular: They are elseworlds. The changes they make exists onto themselves. Most films are.
That's nice that you consider the donner films cheese, that doesn't change the fact that they gave him an assortment of new powers with no mass outrage or specific explanation. As for the opinion that STM is the better film, that boils down to opinion, I mean given your nack for harping on logic and supposed plot holes...

To answer your question:
I thought it was clear, not only does jor mention that earths atmosphere provides nourishment: The substances necessary for growth, health, and good condition and sustenance.
It plays a key role in his abilities. Moreover, it's apparent that the toxic atmosphere of krypton that he himself is not at all acclimated to, provide the opposite effect. In the source material unstable kryponite from his home planet's core has adverse effects to his powers, and by that same contrived logic I see no error in the idea that the micro cellular or and atomic make up of his toxic world/harsh and foreign world counteract the effects of ours.

I'd go further and suggest that if the sun's energy has the effect strengthening the cells in his muscles and skin, the atomic make up of the atmosphere, provide the actual fuel or vice versa, and thus can take it away.



To be honest, this doesn't help the argument that fans aren't raging imo.

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Old 10-03-2013, 03:01 AM   #614
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Soul vision was met with initial and typical fan reception upon arrival(yay change), so were early chapters of that particular maxi, only to be remembered and constantly brought up by fans later(in this very thread). I'll take a wait and see approach to these new revelations and this new series. Still, I'm surprised waid(the man) could have missed the mark so hard on anything superman. Fans dismissed the lack of trucks too, doesn't make it any less a part of the mythology.

All those celebrated works, have been given the pass on their liberties based on a few things, but one in particular: They are elseworlds. The changes they make exists onto themselves. Most films are.
That's nice that you consider the donner films cheese, that doesn't change the fact that they gave him an assortment of new powers with no mass outrage or specific explanation. As for the opinion that STM is the better film, that boils down to opinion, I mean given your nack for harping on logic and supposed plot holes...

To answer your question:
I thought it was clear, not only does jor mention that earths atmosphere provides nourishment: The substances necessary for growth, health, and good condition and sustenance.
It plays a key role in his abilities. Moreover, it's apparent that the toxic atmosphere of krypton that he himself is not at all acclimated to, provide the opposite effect. In the source material unstable kryponite from his home planet's core has adverse effects to his powers, andcopyright.
by that same contrived logic I see no error in the idea that the micro cellular or and atomic make up of his toxic world/harsh and foreign world counteract the effects of ours.

I'd go further and suggest that if the sun's energy has the effect strengthening the cells in his muscles and skin, the atomic make up of the atmosphere, provide the actual fuel or vice versa, and thus can take it away.



To be honest, this doesn't help the argument that fans aren't raging imo.
Lol so in essence Carbon dioxide, nitrogen and oxygen gives Superman his powers? Wait but he flew in space? Shouldn't he have dropped like a ton of bricks or is the composition in space the same as earths? Face it no matter how much you try and defend this garbage it doesn't make a lick of sense. And I hope you realise if what you stated was actually even considered that this Superman would be extremely limited beyond belief Luthor could easily kill him as could the army. If it isn't broke and all that.... Yeah that science.


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Old 10-03-2013, 03:17 AM   #615
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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Lol so in essence Carbon dioxide, nitrogen and oxygen gives Superman his powers? Wait but he flew in space? Shouldn't he have dropped like a ton of bricks or is the composition in space the same as earths? Face it no matter how much you try and defend this garbage it doesn't make a lick of sense. And I hope you realise if what you stated was actually even considered that this Superman would be extremely limited beyond belief Luthor could easily kill him as could the army. If it isn't broke and all that.... Yeah that science.
I'm saying his physiology is nourished by what ever is unique to earth but not krypton in relation to his physiological needs and make up. He is inversely 'de-nourished' by what's unique to that harsh and unknown environment, ie a bunch of unknown fictional elements such as kryponite equivalent. But sure if you wanna go there, you simply have no idea how his body metabolizes O2. A few months ago you were ok with accepting how his body photosynthesis/metabolized uv rays.

But let's access what you explained here, only instead of atmosphere let's use the solar radiation paradigm.
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Wait but he flew in space? Shouldn't he have dropped like a ton of bricks or is the composition in space the same as earths?
What happens when you take the sun away from superman? Does he drop like a ton of bricks? Or does there there need to be an element of red(krypton) solar rays added to the equation.
Surely you see where you fell off the road here?

It's not that I "try hard to defend this garbage," it's that you aren't trying hard enough to bash it. Try harder.

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Old 10-03-2013, 03:21 AM   #616
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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http://voicesfromkrypton.net/superma...-man-of-steel/

James Tucker, who, like Goodman, has been writer/producer on various animated DC productions, among them Justice League, Legion of Superheroes, Batman: The Brave and the Bold and Superman Unbound, has his own theory about the challenges of the Man of Steel.

ďI think people love Superman the way they love religion,Ē Tucker begins. ďThey donít know him as a character, like people donít love Jesus as a character. They love him as a concept, what he represents, which is an all-powerful, kind, pure, salt-of-the-earth icon. But as a character, as a flesh and blood, living, breathing person with a personalityÖ they donít really get that from him. Heís always more of an icon Ė he represents an ideal rather than an individual. That means people put on him their own aspirations, their own wishes. Much like religion, they twist Superman to be what they want him to be. So if they want him to be all-powerful and able to push planets out of the way, if you donít show that they feel cheated. And if heís not perfect in every way, if you show him vulnerableÖ We had this problem on Justice League where every time something happened to Superman, there was a complaint. But he has to be vulnerable to something or thereís no story, thereís nothing to overcome. We didnít do as well as we could have, but we got better at it.Ē

He continues, ďThere hasnít been a Superman story written or movie made where someone didnít say, ĎYeah, but heís Superman, so he should have been able to blah, blah, blah.í This last part was said before Man of Steel came out.
This is great. Thanks for posting it.

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Old 10-03-2013, 03:25 AM   #617
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I'm asking for the script to be consistent with its own story. And I'm saying Superman didn't act in like he would in the exact situation because of how he was portrayed earlier. So criticism of his character's consistency holds true.
Sorry but you must understand that is was a different situation, it would be pointless to discuss. First off he's dealing with someone with his vision, someone who can fly, someone who isn't trying to take him alive and lastly in a place where he can bring a building down with a wild swing...etc.
It's different.

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Objective film criticism, eh. How about the average Joe or Jane who doesn't read an objective review? And goes into the theatre with his or her preconceived perceptions of Superman. You can hardly ask the audience to check in their conditioning from 75 years of Superman lore at the counter along with their coats and jackets.
I can.
If a film critic is a super fan boy, and he puts out a fan centric and fueled review for RT and mass consumption, what good is that to anyone that isn't coming from his world? What's the point of them reading his review? To know how they would feel if they had his baggage? Sorry but film review really shouldn't work that way imo. It should be as objective as possible. As for people walking into a film with baggage, you're right, there is no accounting for that, but when it comes review and analysis, there is supposed to be.
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Maybe because it's a Wolverine fight and we're talking about a Superman fight?
I thought we were talking about fights and what's needed to make them work for the basic audience. You know like the way people are tossing around the rules of filmmaking and not just the "rules of superman filmmaking"
Yes or no, a fight scene benefits from two opposing forces? Yes or no a fight scene benefits from combatants that have vulnerabilities.....basic conventions no? Does a good fight for a film audience need a hero running around saving people to work? Apparently not, given how many great fights lack that specific element. What is needed for a good fight is the basic premise, once you have that figured out you can then address the issue of if MOS presented a "good fight"
The matter of if it made specific superman fans happens is something else.

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Facts? Hardly. you gave your views on what went down, and said "good, good" I gave mine and said "bad, bad"
I said zod got the better of superman in multiple hand to hand exchanges, indicative of advanced (kryptonian)fighting skill. I specifically recall a hand to hand exchange in front of the parking lot, where zod caught him in the chest and neck with a movement pattern similar to that of JorEl.
Seems pretty cut and dry to me. Zod has Kryptonain fight style/training/skill.

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Well, yes. We're in a thread about the movie's screenwriter questioning his story's merits. Whatever irony you're trying to pull with your reply is obviously coming from some place else.
You're right, it's alluding to something else.
This thread has seen a number of people question the basic logic presented in this a superman film. Your statement(in reference to STM) would imply that such and all logic is actually dependent on story alone, as opposed to the alternative.
Just felt that ironic.

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Old 10-03-2013, 03:53 AM   #618
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Originally Posted by Marvin View Post
I can.
If a film critic is a super fan boy, and he puts out a fan centric and fueled review for RT and mass consumption, what good is that to anyone that isn't coming from his world? What's the point of them reading his review? To know how they would feel if they had his baggage? Sorry but film review really shouldn't work that way imo. It should be as objective as possible. As for people walking into a film with baggage, you're right, there is no accounting for that, but when it comes review and analysis, there is supposed to be.
Ok, but we weren't initially talking about an objective film review with respect to a fanboy-tinged prejudiced one, just a preconditioned audience.

But I take your point.

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Originally Posted by Marvin View Post
I thought we were talking about fights and what's needed to make them work for the basic audience. You know like the way people are tossing around the rules of filmmaking and not just the "rules of superman filmmaking"
Yes or no, a fight scene benefits from two opposing forces? Yes or no a fight scene benefits from combatants that have vulnerabilities.....basic conventions no? Does a good fight for a film audience need a hero running around saving people to work? Apparently not, given how many great fights lack that specific element. What is needed for a good fight is the basic premise, once you have that figured out you can then address the issue of if MOS presented a "good fight"
I was talking about MoS' end fight and specifically what it needed to be more compelling and what it's missing in execution. You brought in the Wolverine fight, another fight with its own circumstances.

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Originally Posted by Marvin View Post
I said zod got the better of superman in multiple hand to hand exchanges, indicative of advanced (kryptonian)fighting skill. I specifically recall a hand to hand exchange in front of the parking lot, where zod caught him in the chest and neck with a movement pattern similar to that of JorEl.
Seems pretty cut and dry to me. Zod has Kryptonain fight style/training/skill.
And I said Jor-El got the better of Zod in multiple hand to hand exchanges, indicative that Zod isn't too hot in his advanced (kryptonian)fighting skill.

Seems pretty cut and dried to me.

(But let's wait for the DVD to scrutinize the fights further.)

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Originally Posted by Marvin View Post
You're right, it's alluding to something else.
This thread has seen a number of people question the basic logic presented in this a superman film. Your statement(in reference to STM) would imply that such and all logic is actually dependent on story alone, as opposed to the alternative.
Just felt that ironic.
Isn't it? STM and MoS are different movies with distinct, inherent movie logics outfitted for their specific stories. Why can't one question both a movie's logic and the story's consistency? For example, the science of the Kryptonian powers derived from the earth's gravity/sun's solar energy might be wonky, but the story, Superman's journey and growth, still can make sense and flow. And vice versa.


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Old 10-03-2013, 04:07 AM   #619
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

Figured I'd take a minute to respond to one of your earlier responses HouseEl. Sorry if you thought it thought it not worth my time, I only get a few days off.

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Doesn't matter about how many Kryptonian invasion fleet caliber opponents he faced, facts are when in a situation where there was others in danger of being caught up in his battle with another dangerous foe he ensured the battle commenced elsewhere. Smallville is a very flawed show with their Superman being very flawed but at least he had the good sense to consider casualties before engaging Super powered foe.
Briefly, on the issue of if Smallville ever conveyed him not moving fights away form innocents, it’s guilty. For example, See him fighting Bizarro in the local dam with massive damage enacted (dams are staffed 24/7), and with luthors running around(as they always are).
As for Red K, he willingly put it on kept it on for weeks, once or twenty times matters little, if you stop and take in the full implications of that action, not knowing when the ring would ever come off, not knowing whom he would kill or impregnate or worse, the selfish nature of the act…I didn’t seen anything of that sort in MoS. I enjoyed smallville to a point but my rose tinted glasses are broken.

Lastly, opponent does matter.
Or do you think superman actually wanted to fight doomsday in a populated city in the source material. If he is faced with something beyond his control, things will play out logically. Ergo the question is clear, how many kryptonian invasion fleet caliber situations did he face in a populated area during the Smallville series. If the answer if plenty and every time he successfully moved the fight elsewhere, then you will have made the point; if the answer is none then you will not have made a different point.

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Except Batman wasn't bred solely to fulfill one role, also JorEl wasn't a warrior but a scientist....
And this is where my point is made. At what moment during this film are you told that jor el is bred “solely to fulfill the one role of scientist”? I can tell you the point in the film where I'm shown clearly that, that simply isn't true, but I'm asking when it's clearly stated that he was bred for the sole role of scientist? I can see how you would think that due to implication but the words “solely to be a scientist” are never stated.
You insist on calling bs on your own premise. One could argue that it's implied but if you are going to call plot hole of contradiction in nature, you need more than what you derive from implications imo.

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When what is shown and stated contradict one another what is the audience to do but to question this huge contradiction.
They are welcome to question all sorts of things; they are also welcomed to find the answers. I see no contradiction; only misunderstanding. Jor el explains in brief that people have their roles chosen for them; he didn’t get into the specifics, he kept it general, as that’s all the script required. How literal you take this conversation is on you, for example:

“In the animal kingdom, there are animals that fit into the role of hunter, and others into the role of prey, a fox for example, is a hunter.” Observe I am making the point on the order of things and why it’s necessary in an animal eco system. When I later see a fox being eaten by a bear, I won’t sit here and call plot hole contraction based on the fact that I was implicitly told that fox is a hunter in a greater conversation. The point of my exposition was that the system has and needs hunters and prey; the reality that I’m later shown is that the fox happens to be both. But why wasn’t I told about the duality of the fox’s placement? Because the point of the exposition was that the system has hunters and prey, the finer workings are another discussion, perhaps relegated to a less efficient script. “People on krypton are born into roles!” What is the point of this exposition? And what point to the story would be served if jor el explained that some people’s roles entail this, that and the next thing... It’s a role, people are born into them. Jor El wants to make it clear that he hates that basic fact, Period.

As for the film contradicting itself by having jor el start to make choices of his own. Last time I checked, the premise of Jor El’s conviction was “what if a child choose his own path” in spite of societal litigation. Not what if a child wanted to choose whether to turn left or right at a stop sign, jor can clearly do this and more. All Jor’s choices aside, he is still a victim of the perversion in his eyes. His son, however is not, what his son will grow to be is left utterly to chance; jor couldn’t even begin to guess and that’s the point, betcha you could have called jors occupation at the age of 3 weeks. On principle this is of the utmost significance. What if a child didn’t have his genes spliced and tempered or played with but was something completely natural and his destiny was left up to chance. Jor specifically said “chance” on top of choice, reinforcing that Krypton’s problems isn’t a matter of freewill incarnate but freedom to be who/what you want.

In conclusion, just because jor can be a warrior scientist doesn’t change or contradict the greater issue of perverted societal based genetics. It just adds a layer of complexity. Rather, sometimes the jocks can be book smart and geeks the opposite. The issue of high school clic mentality is still very much present and a worthy conflict to a social idealist. I for one commend the producers of this film for adding a greater complexity to the issue of why jor sent his son away, beyond the planet was exploding(and the ship too small for his wife).

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Old 10-03-2013, 04:11 AM   #620
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I'm saying his physiology is nourished by what ever is unique to earth but not krypton in relation to his physiological needs and make up. He is inversely 'de-nourished' by what's unique to that harsh and unknown environment, ie a bunch of unknown fictional elements such as kryponite equivalent. But sure if you wanna go there, you simply have no idea how his body metabolizes O2. A few months ago you were ok with accepting how his body photosynthesis/metabolized uv rays.
I was ready to go with what was already established yes, like I said change for the sake of change doesn't ad to the mythology or simply over complicate things. So the sun isn't even integral to this Superman abilities it's the condition that comes into play?

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Originally Posted by Marvin View Post
But let's access what you explained here, only instead of atmosphere let's use the solar radiation paradigm. What happens when you take the sun away from superman? Does he drop like a ton of bricks? Or does there there need to be an element of red(krypton) solar rays added to the equation.
Surely you see where you fell off the road here?

It's not that I "try hard to defend this garbage," it's that you aren't trying hard enough to bash it. Try harder.
He dropped like a ton of brick on Zod ship hence the reasoning that he would drop like a brick out of earths atmosphere since his powers stems from the atmosphere. And I am not trying to bash the film but will try harder if you want. Like I said gas now powers Superman if we go by Goyers reasoning.


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Old 10-03-2013, 04:23 AM   #621
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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Originally Posted by LordofhouseEl View Post
I was ready to go with what was already established yes, like I said change for the sake of change does this ads to the mythology or simply over complicate things. So the sun isn't even integral to this Superman abilities it's the condition that comes into play?
I don't know what it does to the mythology, hopefully it changes things up from the tired and true pulling out of the green rock that traveled across the universe cliche.

And to answer your question, the sun is still at play, it's just like you said, more complicated/complex now. I personally have no issue with complexity, I'll take a wait and see approach.

Quote:
He dropped like a ton of brick on Zod ship hence the reasoning that he would drop like a brick out of earths atmosphere since his powers stems from the atmosphere. And I am not trying to bash the film but will try harder if you want. Like I said gas now powers Superman if we go by Goyers reasoning.
On Zod's ship he wasn't simply deprived of Earths atmosphere. He was introduced to it's counter agent. The red sun/kryptonite of this universe.
The point I made was that superman stores energy unless met with a counter agent. Superman doesn't drop the minute you remove his fuel, just as he won't drop the minute you remove O2and gas. You need to add the counter agent before he drops or deprive him for a prolonged period of time whilst he exerts himself.

You claim to be criticizing "goyer's reasoning" when really it's your own you have fault with.

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Old 10-03-2013, 05:15 AM   #622
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

Lord, I had not even realised that in what the movie shows sunlight does not dominantly contribute to super man's powers.

Some other ones:
- he instantly regains his powers on the ship when the atmosphere is changed, even though there is no window.
- Faora instantly regains her powers as well.

All of this aside from tbe fact that Krypton is shown to have a sun identical to our own, though a little brighter.

On the bright side, it will now be easy for batman to beat up superman in the next movie, which the plot demands.


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Old 10-03-2013, 05:41 AM   #623
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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Originally Posted by Marvin View Post
I don't know what it does to the mythology, hopefully it changes things up from the tired and true pulling out of the green rock that traveled across the universe cliche.

And to answer your question, the sun is still at play, it's just like you said, more complicated/complex now. I personally have no issue with complexity, I'll take a wait and see approach.


On Zod's ship he wasn't simply deprived of Earths atmosphere. He was introduced to it's counter agent. The red sun/kryptonite of this universe.
The point I made was that superman stores energy unless met with a counter agent. Superman doesn't drop the minute you remove his fuel, just as he won't drop the minute you remove O2and gas. You need to add the counter agent before he drops or deprive him for a prolonged period of time whilst he exerts himself.

You claim to be criticizing "goyer's reasoning" when really it's your own you have fault with.
Is that so? Well in truth you have answered none of the points I raised only tried to Ineptly explain things but fail. I will go with what you say Kryptons atmosphere completely drains him of his powers and earths nourishes him so what occurs between that little intermediary between earth and the ship..... you know space. You are aware of what occurs in space right? If we go by what your saying He shouldn't be able to take flight in space period. Also Goyer seemed to forget something extremely pivotal when he had ghost daddy change the atmosphere to earths, how is Lois Lane killing super powered kryptonians with that gun ( yes super powered since an atmospheric change has occurred) and second why are the krytonians not having sensory overload? I am sure you will have some excuse for it all I look forward to it.


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Old 10-03-2013, 09:49 AM   #624
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

"How could Jor-El beat a general?" Let's see - I've never served in the military, police, etc. and have never made a living in any related field. However, I have trained in martial arts for over 20 years. If General Dempsey shows up at my house to kill my child, he will be in for a serious ass-kicking. Generals on our primitive planet don't usually do a lot of hand to hand fighting at that point in their careers. Do you think maybe, just maybe, that might be the case on Krypton?
"Why would atmosphere affect him more quickly than the sun?" Really??! That's a question? I'll tell you what - even though I derive precious Vitamin D from our sun's rays, I would be willing to spend a whole week underground while you only have to put on a breathing tank containing 5% oxygen for a few minutes. Which one of us would be feeling better?
"But Superman flew in space! What's up with that?" He flew in space for about 10 seconds. Most ordinary humans can hold their breath for at least a minute without any ill effects. Come on. This is the best you can do as devil's advocate? Let's make this more fun - if you're a MOS hater, as obviously several of you are, tell us your very favorite movie and we'll spend a few pages telling you why it's so terrible. Please? Any movie will do.

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Old 10-03-2013, 09:54 AM   #625
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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Sure, strength/skill inconsistencies happen all the time in action and comic flicks. But Zod's inconsistent portrayal made the final fight, in a movie with a series of fights with escalating stakes, less compelling for me.

Clark was going mano a mano against a fully powered Zod in Metropolis -- which is why he couldn't be saving people, his hands were full. Makes sense. But Clark faced down two Kryptonians in Faora and Nam-Ek, while saving people. Is Zod > Faora and Nam-Ek combined? The same Zod who isn't a "god of confrontation" (to borrow an expression of yours) because he was beaten by a scientist (who may also be a warrior). Does "mastering his senses" make up for all the time Clark has been on earth?

So it wasn't exactly clear Zod's way more powerful than his companions.

This at the back of my head plus the lack of followup to Faora's words to Clark of having a "sense of morality" and Zod's threat to kill every human being (he only started aiming for the family in the train station) made the choreography of the final fight a whole lot gripping than it should have been. The contentious 'lack of buildup to killing Zod' for me.

These are spot on. Muddled, unclear, unfocused storytelling. Things happen because the story calls for it, not because it complies with the consistent internal logic that the film establishes. That is weak storytelling.

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