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View Poll Results: How do you feel about Goyer writing the script for the first Superman Batman film
His work on MOS was VERY GOOD. He'll do GREAT. 27 20.45%
His work on MOS was OKAY. I am Skecptical. 30 22.73%
His work on MOS was POOR. I feel dread. 32 24.24%
He NEEDS Affleck's help and guidance to deliver a great script 43 32.58%
Voters: 132. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 10-22-2013, 07:55 AM   #901
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

^ What people wanted was a well-rounded story that HAPPENED to contain fight scenes. But CGI era, hand-to-hand Superman action had yet to occur prior to MOS, and so people were more desperate for it.

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Old 10-22-2013, 09:41 AM   #902
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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It's hard to see it but who knows. There were some good Lois and Martha scenes in Lois and Clark.

In fairness, I don't know that anybody predicted prior to MoS that the Martha scenes would be the best scenes in the movie, and I don't know that anybody said they would want a Superman origin movie to be focused on his relationship with his adoptive parents, which is what I think a lot of people would say now. What I recall, is people said they wanted epic fight scenes, and that sort of thing. It turns out that it is not what people wanted.
Yeah I was saying that long before MOS came out (and getting into fights with I SEE SPIDEY about it too ). I can't believe the amount of people that jumped on Superman Returns, group-thinkingly deciding that it's most major flaw was it's lack of a Superman fight. Funnily enough All-Star Superman was being printed at the same time and showing that's not the case at all.

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Old 10-22-2013, 09:45 AM   #903
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

I think fans wanted both. Epic fight scenes and a great story.

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Old 10-22-2013, 11:11 AM   #904
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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It's hard to see it but who knows. There were some good Lois and Martha scenes in Lois and Clark.

In fairness, I don't know that anybody predicted prior to MoS that the Martha scenes would be the best scenes in the movie, and I don't know that anybody said they would want a Superman origin movie to be focused on his relationship with his adoptive parents, which is what I think a lot of people would say now. What I recall, is people said they wanted epic fight scenes, and that sort of thing. It turns out that it is not what people wanted.
I personally assumed it would be a given. I was not expecting Jor-El to be the primary focus of all four of Clark's parents.

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Old 10-22-2013, 01:01 PM   #905
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

Alot of people didn't want transformers.
safe to say they didn't get that.

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Old 10-22-2013, 01:10 PM   #906
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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Alot of people didn't want transformers.
safe to say they didn't get that.
It's not the same thing, Marvin. You can only bring up other media if you are going to say MOS sucks.

Watch:

MOS wasn't at all like Little Women, the film with Winona Ryder in it. There wasn't the heart or the emotion, or the hilarity or the romance. And there was definitely no Clare Danes. MOS doesn't even compare. It's the worst film ever to be thrust upon unaware audiences!

See how that works? It's super easy. You should try it!

You bring up some sort of media, and say favorable things about it, while trashing MOS. If you bring up other media to point out what MOS does well, you're unfairly trashing the media you bring up, and your point is not valid any longer.

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Old 10-22-2013, 01:39 PM   #907
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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It's not the same thing, Marvin. You can only bring up other media if you are going to say MOS sucks.

Watch:

MOS wasn't at all like Little Women, the film with Winona Ryder in it. There wasn't the heart or the emotion, or the hilarity or the romance. And there was definitely no Clare Danes. MOS doesn't even compare. It's the worst film ever to be thrust upon unaware audiences!

See how that works? It's super easy. You should try it!

You bring up some sort of media, and say favorable things about it, while trashing MOS. If you bring up other media to point out what MOS does well, you're unfairly trashing the media you bring up, and your point is not valid any longer.
Really your first problem is trying to argue that MOS did well. The fact is it didn't.

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Old 10-22-2013, 02:15 PM   #908
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

My love for MOS is well established here. However, I do think that it would not be a bad idea for Affleck to have some script input. He does character's really well, so it might ease some of the concerns on that front.

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Old 10-22-2013, 03:48 PM   #909
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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Really your first problem is trying to argue that MOS did well. The fact is it didn't.
My bad. I forgot the film only made 5 million world wide.

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My love for MOS is well established here. However, I do think that it would not be a bad idea for Affleck to have some script input. He does character's really well, so it might ease some of the concerns on that front.
Personally, the people who show the most 'concern' for the next film are the people I would be least concerned about pleasing. All sarcasm aside, the GA seemed well pleased with MOS, and more importantly, the big wigs at WB were also pleased. We know what they do when they don't care for films (hi, poor GL and SR).

They know they have the right Superman, they feel confident enough about Goyer and Snyder to give them another film. If the movie was as atrocious as certain people on here try to proclaim, there is no way WB would give Snyder and Goyer another go.

Was MOS the greatest, deepest film to grace a movie screen? No. But it wasn't meant to be. It was designed to be a mythic superhero film about a hero who is struggling with his identity. That is what we got.

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Old 10-22-2013, 04:24 PM   #910
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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Alot of people didn't want transformers.
safe to say they didn't get that.
MOS, TRANSFORMER IN DISGUISE!!!!


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Old 10-22-2013, 04:24 PM   #911
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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My love for MOS is well established here. However, I do think that it would not be a bad idea for Affleck to have some script input. He does character's really well, so it might ease some of the concerns on that front.
Yeah, having enjoyed MOS quite a bit myself, I still think the script for BVS would definitely benefit from another set of eyes. When you consider where the original leaves off, Superman isn't quite fully formed yet, and the mild-mannered version of Clark Kent hasn't been developed at all. I imagine there's an intent to flesh out the character of Lois Lane as well (in the new film). Naturally, we can expect a fallout from MOS, where the mayhem that ensued in the wake of Superman's battle against the other Kryptonians (including Zod's death) will be addressed. Then we'll have Batman as well as Lex Luthor thrown into the mix.

That's all one hell of an ambitious undertaking! I know I wouldn't mind a little help.

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Old 10-22-2013, 04:35 PM   #912
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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My bad. I forgot the film only made 5 million world wide.



Personally, the people who show the most 'concern' for the next film are the people I would be least concerned about pleasing. All sarcasm aside, the GA seemed well pleased with MOS, and more importantly, the big wigs at WB were also pleased. We know what they do when they don't care for films (hi, poor GL and SR).

They know they have the right Superman, they feel confident enough about Goyer and Snyder to give them another film. If the movie was as atrocious as certain people on here try to proclaim, there is no way WB would give Snyder and Goyer another go.

Was MOS the greatest, deepest film to grace a movie screen? No. But it wasn't meant to be. It was designed to be a mythic superhero film about a hero who is struggling with his identity. That is what we got.

Try replacing every mention of MOS/Superman with "Transformers" and Snyder/Goyer with "Michael Bay". Ouch.

This is the kind of thinking that stands in the way of progress. It dismisses any and all valid criticism that might help to improve future installments for the sake of settling.

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Old 10-22-2013, 04:58 PM   #913
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

an opinion I see alot of is people saying MOS was "all action"..."no story"
an opinion I see alot of is people saying Transformers was "all action"..."no story"
The latter having about 15 set pieces or something of that sort.

When the two films are compared, it just doesn't seem to add up, I'm being relative of course. The real problem with alot of the criticism is simple, hyperbole getting it it's own way. How's about an accurate measure of the amount of action, seems like a more productive place to start if we want to move forward.

A more eloquent analysis of the action in question, I mean avengers had just as much if not more, but it was different, with different motivations. There is must as much bogus hyperbole in the Superman returns descriptions. Just get's people yelling at each other.

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Old 10-22-2013, 05:30 PM   #914
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

I actually thought the last Transformers film had a decent premise , Tying the Transformers to the moon landing,
They just didnt do anything with it.
I liked the idea of killing human collaborators too.
But once the robot smashing started that was gone as well.
The ideas were kind of interesting .
But, the execution was very poor .

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Old 10-22-2013, 05:33 PM   #915
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

MOS should have looked at Saving Private Ryan instead.

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Old 10-22-2013, 07:18 PM   #916
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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I actually thought the last Transformers film had a decent premise , Tying the Transformers to the moon landing,
They just didnt do anything with it.
I liked the idea of killing human collaborators too.
But once the robot smashing started that was gone as well.
The ideas were kind of interesting .
But, the execution was very poor .
Yeah the first ten minutes of transformers 3 were incredible, which I find kind of funny.

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Old 10-22-2013, 07:21 PM   #917
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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Try replacing every mention of MOS/Superman with "Transformers" and Snyder/Goyer with "Michael Bay". Ouch.

This is the kind of thinking that stands in the way of progress. It dismisses any and all valid criticism that might help to improve future installments for the sake of settling.
In my own life, I usually compare myself to those more successful than me. It is called having an ambitious mentality. MoS is a comic book movie, so I naturally compare it to movies like first class, not elektra.

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Old 10-22-2013, 07:25 PM   #918
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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I personally assumed it would be a given. I was not expecting Jor-El to be the primary focus of all four of Clark's parents.
I do recall people saying that they did not want too much jor el, and I think that is because jor el was incredibly annoying on smallville.

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Old 10-23-2013, 01:09 AM   #919
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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Try replacing every mention of MOS/Superman with "Transformers" and Snyder/Goyer with "Michael Bay". Ouch.

This is the kind of thinking that stands in the way of progress. It dismisses any and all valid criticism that might help to improve future installments for the sake of settling.
I don't think any of the criticisms aimed at MOS are really meant to support Goyer. Pretty much all I've seen is that Goyer can't write films, sucks at every part of his job, and is apparently running the greatest con ever by still having gainful employment by being asked to write another film.

Everybody is entitled to their opinion. But despite the RT numbers being waved around, a majority of critics still liked the film. The majority of audiences also liked the film. Apparently the majority of peeps running the show at WB liked the film, and liked what they saw in Goyer.

So to take any of the criticism of how MOS was basically just a failure as a film as legitimate, I have to ignore all the positives for the film, and I'm not going to do that, because that wouldn't be logical.

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In my own life, I usually compare myself to those more successful than me. It is called having an ambitious mentality. MoS is a comic book movie, so I naturally compare it to movies like first class, not elektra.
I know you do, which is why you go see films and enjoy them, and then have your mind changed by other people. I'm not sure if that's ambitious, or more of a herd-like mentality.

Besides, you've compared MOS to non-comic book films, so I don't know what you're talking about.

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Yeah, having enjoyed MOS quite a bit myself, I still think the script for BVS would definitely benefit from another set of eyes. When you consider where the original leaves off, Superman isn't quite fully formed yet, and the mild-mannered version of Clark Kent hasn't been developed at all. I imagine there's an intent to flesh out the character of Lois Lane as well (in the new film). Naturally, we can expect a fallout from MOS, where the mayhem that ensued in the wake of Superman's battle against the other Kryptonians (including Zod's death) will be addressed. Then we'll have Batman as well as Lex Luthor thrown into the mix.

That's all one hell of an ambitious undertaking! I know I wouldn't mind a little help.
I'm wary of too much 'help'. Sometimes when this happens, it goes really well. Other times, it mucks up everything.

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Old 10-23-2013, 01:18 AM   #920
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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I think fans wanted both. Epic fight scenes and a great story.
fans want the opposite of whatever they're given.

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Old 10-23-2013, 01:26 AM   #921
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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^ What people wanted was a well-rounded story that HAPPENED to contain fight scenes. But CGI era, hand-to-hand Superman action had yet to occur prior to MOS, and so people were more desperate for it.
It comes down to a balance of quality story and action. There was too much of the latter and not enough of the former. Ideally the action should be birthed out of the story and not the other way around.

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Old 10-23-2013, 03:52 AM   #922
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Yeah I was saying that long before MOS came out (and getting into fights with I SEE SPIDEY about it too ). I can't believe the amount of people that jumped on Superman Returns, group-thinkingly deciding that it's most major flaw was it's lack of a Superman fight. Funnily enough All-Star Superman was being printed at the same time and showing that's not the case at all.
What I didn't like about Superman Returns was the stupidity of Lex's plan. It made it hard for me to appreciate the movie at all, because I was just like "ummmm, Lex, your plan sucks, your island sucks and you won't get to keep it anyway". I liked a lot of the rest of the film, the airplane scene, the bullet bouncing off the eye, I even liked the kid and seeing Lois as a mom.

As a fandom though, Superman fans are probably collectively wrong for having said that SR is a bad movie "because Superman doesn't land a single punch". A lot of people said that, so many said that that it was probably believed. Man of Steel may not have been the movie Superman fans wanted to see, but it was the movie that Superman fans claimed they wanted to see. We got what we said we wanted, it's kind of like a democracy.

The animated feature of All-Star Superman is one of my favourite DCAU features. It had comparatively little action. My least favourite features are Emerald Knights and Public Enemies, both are awful, and both are non-stop action.

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Old 10-23-2013, 04:00 AM   #923
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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Originally Posted by Vid Electricz View Post
Try replacing every mention of MOS/Superman with "Transformers" and Snyder/Goyer with "Michael Bay". Ouch.

This is the kind of thinking that stands in the way of progress. It dismisses any and all valid criticism that might help to improve future installments for the sake of settling.
I have Tempest on ignore. She's not interested in dry and sanitary discussion of the strengths and failings of the movie, just in believing that the film's writing is perfect. She has actually tried to argue that it's immoral for people to change their minds about something when they're presented with a strong counterargument.

With respect to progress, Goyer doesn't read these boards, and I don't know if he reads professional reviews ! But, it's been great getting a better understanding of storytelling the past few months. There's been a tremendous amount of analysis of this film (try and find this much analysis for Elysium or Oblivion in either quality or quantity), and so I am now aware of all sorts of principles of storytelling I was not aware of before.


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Old 10-23-2013, 04:24 AM   #924
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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What I didn't like about Superman Returns was the stupidity of Lex's plan. It made it hard for me to appreciate the movie at all, because I was just like "ummmm, Lex, your plan sucks, your island sucks and you won't get to keep it anyway". I liked a lot of the rest of the film, the airplane scene, the bullet bouncing off the eye, I even liked the kid and seeing Lois as a mom.

As a fandom though, Superman fans are probably collectively wrong for having said that SR is a bad movie "because Superman doesn't land a single punch". A lot of people said that, so many said that that it was probably believed. Man of Steel may not have been the movie Superman fans wanted to see, but it was the movie that Superman fans claimed they wanted to see. We got what we said we wanted, it's kind of like a democracy.

The animated feature of All-Star Superman is one of my favourite DCAU features. It had comparatively little action. My least favourite features are Emerald Knights and Public Enemies, both are awful, and both are non-stop action.
Right on.

I think put simply the most important thing is just getting the characters right. We just have to buy into the characters and love them. And Brandon Routh and Kate Bosworth made that impossible. The story was a problem too but at the core of it it's just the main cast weren't likable. Henry and Amy just had so much more charm and charisma. It's just too bad they were let down a bit by the script. But I would watch a whole movie of just Henry and Amy as the characters if it was written well because they just have that screen presence, and it wouldn't need to have any fighting.

Martial arts isn't intrinsic to the character of Superman in the same way that it is with Batman. Joe Casey (Whatever happened to Truth, Justice and the American Way?) made a point of this back in the early 2000's where he did a whole year run on Superman with him not fighting anyone at all trying to show him as a pure pacifist and seeing if anyone noticed. In All-Star, Superman didn't throw a punch until the last couple issues against Solaris and Luthor when he was weak and under the clock.

It's kind of important to the character that while Batman tries to frighten and torment his enemies, Spidey tries to mock, insult and humiliate his enemies; Superman is the one trying to rehabilitate his enemies. Because he loves everyone and wants everyone to be the best they can be. It's why MOS would have been such a better film had Goyer taken a note from the issue of All-Star with Bar-El and Li-lo where they lay a huge beating on Supes, leaving him bloody and broken, but when they get sick, Superman still extends his hand to help them and saves them both. Had MOS ended like that fans would be so much happier right now, and I also think it would be validating to the public's perception of the character too. Like 'Yeah maybe that kind of mercy and kindness is still cool today'. Instead we got the dark edgy neck snap which has really just confused everyone about the character now.

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Old 10-23-2013, 04:49 AM   #925
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Right on.

I think put simply the most important thing is just getting the characters right. We just have to buy into the characters and love them. And Brandon Routh and Kate Bosworth made that impossible. The story was a problem too but at the core of it it's just the main cast weren't likable. Henry and Amy just had so much more charm and charisma. It's just too bad they were let down a bit by the script. But I would watch a whole movie of just Henry and Amy as the characters if it was written well because they just have that screen presence, and it wouldn't need to have any fighting.

Martial arts isn't intrinsic to the character of Superman in the same way that it is with Batman. Joe Casey (Whatever happened to Truth, Justice and the American Way?) made a point of this back in the early 2000's where he did a whole year run on Superman with him not fighting anyone at all trying to show him as a pure pacifist and seeing if anyone noticed. In All-Star, Superman didn't throw a punch until the last couple issues against Solaris and Luthor when he was weak and under the clock.

It's kind of important to the character that while Batman tries to frighten and torment his enemies, Spidey tries to mock, insult and humiliate his enemies; Superman is the one trying to rehabilitate his enemies. Because he loves everyone and wants everyone to be the best they can be. It's why MOS would have been such a better film had Goyer taken a note from the issue of All-Star with Bar-El and Li-lo where they lay a huge beating on Supes, leaving him bloody and broken, but when they get sick, Superman still extends his hand to help them and saves them both. Had MOS ended like that fans would be so much happier right now, and I also think it would be validating to the public's perception of the character too. Like 'Yeah maybe that kind of mercy and kindness is still cool today'. Instead we got the dark edgy neck snap which has really just confused everyone about the character now.
Great post.

I don't like Brandon Routh. To me, he kind of looks like a pedophile, so I don't buy him as Superman, I think he'd be better cast on Law and Order: SVU. He also looks like a boy and not a man, and he lacks personality.But I thought Kate Bosworth was ok. If people didn't like her role that's fine, but I bought her as Lois. As for watching a 2 hour romantic comedy with Henry Cavill and Amy Adams, I watched some 60 hours of romantic comedy with Dean Cain and Teri Hatcher and loved most of it. I'm pretty sure that with good writing, Cavill and Adams would do a lot better.

One failure shared by both SR and MoS is that they both give very little dialogue to the ostensible protagonist. I'm not sure why that is. Why not give him lines?

With respect to rehabilitation, I loved the ending of All-Star the movie, when Lex sees what Superman an see, and ends up thinking differently, and gives that potion to Superman. I thought that was such a beautiful ending. It's the nicest ending of a Superman movie that I can think of.

How would you have written the ending to MoS?


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