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View Poll Results: How do you feel about Goyer writing the script for the first Superman Batman film
His work on MOS was VERY GOOD. He'll do GREAT. 27 20.45%
His work on MOS was OKAY. I am Skecptical. 30 22.73%
His work on MOS was POOR. I feel dread. 32 24.24%
He NEEDS Affleck's help and guidance to deliver a great script 43 32.58%
Voters: 132. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 09-26-2013, 05:24 AM   #151
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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A big no on all counts.

A montage isn't just showing an image and expecting the audience to feel a certain way, it still explores genuine human feelings and important themes in a meaningful way. There's a world of difference between showing a building collapse and showing a montage of different kinds of reactions people have to the catastrophe that was just averted.

Also the montage wasn't the only thing that The Avengers did to address the destruction and loss and the human tragedy in the final battle. They also showed the reactions and fear of civilians and local emergency services, they showed the heroes actively rescuing civilians and formulating an evacuation strategy, they flat out stated that minimizing loss of civilian life was a part of the battle strategy, and they showed the main characters having emotional reactions to what was going on. Remember that shot of Captain America, where we see him tired and weary and horrified by the destruction happening all around him and the likelihood that The Avengers might lose where he looks at the civilians he just rescued from inside the bank? We never got a shot of Superman giving a look like that. That's the kind of thing I'm talking about.
Great post overall.

I'll point out though, that you're mostly debating the issue at this point as to how the mass slaughter should have been portrayed. I really think it's the case that for a Superman origin film, showing mass slaughter was not the best strategy no matter how it would be portrayed. For a Superman origin movie, the better option would have been a weaker villain, or a more psychological rather than physical villain.

It's even worse in this case, as David S. Goyer seemed to genuinely believe that he was making a competent Jesus allegory. How does killing 100,000 people tie in to the Jesus allegory that Goyer is shoving down our throats? It doesn't. The tremendous and irreconcilable contradictions between the two elevates the overall cognitive dissonance of the film. For the record, it would also not work for a Moses allegory, as Moses was responsible for the deaths of Egyptians, not Israelites.

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Old 09-26-2013, 05:28 AM   #152
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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he's not saying the character of Superman isn't cool in himself, he's just saying the average person doesn't see him as inherently cool. So you either keep him the straight up altruistic boyscout for no good reason, or you make him earn that title, bringing the audience along for that ride to help them understand why he's so well loved and why he actually is cool. The reason he has Superman kill is because that's the first question on everyone's mind about Superman - oh he's too powerful, why doesn't he just kill the bad guys? He had to build an experience that leads to his code for it to resonate with a cynical audience that doesn't just buy his inherent goodness. It's a matter of putting yourself in the GA's perspective, rather than from a fanboys' perspective, and I think Goyer really gets that.
If he wants the killing to be a great moment in Superman's life and inter-movie character arc, he should have built it up properly throughout the film rather than tacking it on at the last minute without adjusting the rest of the script. As it is, it was executed extremely poorly, mostly due to it being implemented at the last minute.

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Old 09-26-2013, 06:37 AM   #153
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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Great post overall.

I'll point out though, that you're mostly debating the issue at this point as to how the mass slaughter should have been portrayed. I really think it's the case that for a Superman origin film, showing mass slaughter was not the best strategy no matter how it would be portrayed. For a Superman origin movie, the better option would have been a weaker villain, or a more psychological rather than physical villain.

It's even worse in this case, as David S. Goyer seemed to genuinely believe that he was making a competent Jesus allegory. How does killing 100,000 people tie in to the Jesus allegory that Goyer is shoving down our throats? It doesn't. The tremendous and irreconcilable contradictions between the two elevates the overall cognitive dissonance of the film. For the record, it would also not work for a Moses allegory, as Moses was responsible for the deaths of Egyptians, not Israelites.
God killed the Egyptians, not Moses. Why he waits for Moses to use his staff is kind of beyond me.

Superman/Zod killing 100,000 people? Or the people who died in the World Engine?

As far as the first one goes, we don't see very many people in buildings. They are usually blocks away, though the STREETS are more crowded. Superman would have X-ray vision in order to see which buildings are populated. I doubt he would throw Zod into a building/car that he thought was occupied.

And Zod was doing most of the building-flinging, though Superman totally raked against a glass building with Zod.

Now having Clark STEAL and let his Pa die does a better job of undermining the allegory than Superman being in the middle of a fight and not able to save everyone.

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Old 09-26-2013, 07:12 AM   #154
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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God killed the Egyptians, not Moses. Why he waits for Moses to use his staff is kind of beyond me.

Superman/Zod killing 100,000 people? Or the people who died in the World Engine?

As far as the first one goes, we don't see very many people in buildings. They are usually blocks away, though the STREETS are more crowded. Superman would have X-ray vision in order to see which buildings are populated. I doubt he would throw Zod into a building/car that he thought was occupied.

And Zod was doing most of the building-flinging, though Superman totally raked against a glass building with Zod.

Now having Clark STEAL and let his Pa die does a better job of undermining the allegory than Superman being in the middle of a fight and not able to save everyone.
Yeah; it seems like no matter HOW MANY times a person needs to be told that Superman DIDN'T cause the destruction that killed most of the people in Metropolis, they still play in the "ignorance" card and pretend that he did.

If people bothered to actually look at the film, they'd notice that it was Zod and his Black Zero ship that did like 99% of the damage in Metropolis.

Furthermore, it's a bit hypocritical that people are only complaining now considering that this type of destruction takes place within the comics and other forms of medium when you see two powered beings going at it in the city.

Seriously, to all of the people that want to whine and complain on how Superman killed many people in Metropolis, get a new pair of eyes and grow up already.

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Old 09-26-2013, 07:14 AM   #155
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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Originally Posted by TheFlamingCoco View Post
God killed the Egyptians, not Moses. Why he waits for Moses to use his staff is kind of beyond me.

Superman/Zod killing 100,000 people? Or the people who died in the World Engine?

As far as the first one goes, we don't see very many people in buildings. They are usually blocks away, though the STREETS are more crowded. Superman would have X-ray vision in order to see which buildings are populated. I doubt he would throw Zod into a building/car that he thought was occupied.

And Zod was doing most of the building-flinging, though Superman totally raked against a glass building with Zod.
We can argue about empty buildings, etc, but, the estimate of 100,000 deaths came from professionals, and in any case Zach Snyder confirmed that there were mass deaths in the story and that he wanted there to be mass deaths.
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Originally Posted by Zach Snyder
I wanted the movie to have a mythological feeling. In ancient mythology, mass deaths are used to symbolize disasters.
That's what they were going for, and it's fully dissonant with the Jesus allegory that they were going for. In storytelling, like in cooking, you can't just mash random ingredients together, sometimes it won't work. Jesus was somebody who accrued a following slowly but surely, one miracle at a time from very humble beginnings. He was selling a positive message in a time of both spiritual and material need that had a deep-seated historical basis. He did not spontaneously emerge in some random huge splash where a huge number of people died. He did not kill Tiberius or Caligula.

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Old 09-26-2013, 07:19 AM   #156
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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We can argue about empty buildings, etc, but, the estimate of 100,000 deaths came from professionals, and in any case Zach Snyder confirmed that there were mass deaths in the story and that he wanted there to be mass deaths.
And what exactly is the problem with that?

Didn't the invasion in New York from "The Avengers" have a death toll around that high, if not higher?

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Old 09-26-2013, 07:27 AM   #157
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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Seriously, to all of the people that want to whine and complain on how Superman killed many people in Metropolis
Nobody in the recent pages of this thread is accusing Superman of having killed many people in Metropolis.

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Originally Posted by herolee10
And what exactly is the problem with that?
In the very post that you quote, I explain, in the next very next line of text, I explain part of the reason that fails.

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Originally Posted by herolee10
Didn't the invasion in New York from "The Avengers" have a death toll around that high, if not higher?
That stupid counter-argument again.

"What about the Avengers ?!?!?!"


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Old 09-26-2013, 07:32 AM   #158
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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Nobody in the recent pages of this thread is accusing Superman of having killed many people in Metropolis.
That comment wasn't aimed at you or anyone on THIS thread but to the posters who have constantly bashed Superman for that very reason in other forums around here.

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Old 09-26-2013, 09:16 AM   #159
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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We can argue about empty buildings, etc, but, the estimate of 100,000 deaths came from professionals, and in any case Zach Snyder confirmed that there were mass deaths in the story and that he wanted there to be mass deaths.
No doubt a lot of people died but those estimates are purely for fun. And what exactly are these people professionals in? Estimating deaths in movies? There is no hard evidence in the film to give that estimated number so you can't throw it around as fact.

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Old 09-26-2013, 09:17 AM   #160
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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Originally Posted by DA_Champion View Post
It's even worse in this case, as David S. Goyer seemed to genuinely believe that he was making a competent Jesus allegory. How does killing 100,000 people tie in to the Jesus allegory that Goyer is shoving down our throats? It doesn't. The tremendous and irreconcilable contradictions between the two elevates the overall cognitive dissonance of the film. For the record, it would also not work for a Moses allegory, as Moses was responsible for the deaths of Egyptians, not Israelites.
Whether or not he's "shoving" a jesus allegory down your throat, what does that have to do with the death(s) toll.
There is a difference between a loose and slavish allegory in story telling.

For example does a jesus allegory not work if in your story you have a character eat 100,000 apples in one year whilst Jesus clearly did not?
The point being an allegory is not held to the rules of an adaptation nor a remake. In this allegory there was an implied death toll, simple. Ignoring the sheer amount of lives lost in, for and directly do to jesus' heroism, you can make a jesus allegory by choosing to focus on "key parts" of his story you found interesting. You can make a jesus allegory about a kid in high school changing the paradigm of his social universe and it wouldn't need to start with a virgin birth or end with his death and return, it could have the include a school shooting, it would simply need to focus on parts you found essential to your allegory.
Again, implied death toll or no, the judeo christian allegory shows itself in other ways.
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You are obsessed with disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing, rather than trying to learn.
Nah, I learn plenty from your posts, I wasn't aware that you were here to teach us though.
And no, you saying something I disagree with with tend to result in you hearing from me, that's the way it works. Has nothing to do with obsession rather, intelligent conversation. Whether something is said in "passing" or not, if it's in your post it's accountable to the discussion.

Furthermore, you need to get past describing your fellow posters and get on with making your point, it's tiresome(another fallacy if you know what I'm getting at).
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I wrote, correctly, that S:TM is not one of the great movies of the 20th century, it was in passing and not central to my point, and did not need to be justified as it's well known to be true. You're telling me it's "not unlike" Jaws and Star Wars? Are you nuts?

...
The imdb list? See this is where the matter becomes confused, when you said great films of the last century were you talking about general reception and influence, it's critical reception or it's placing on some fan driven list on the imdb internet site? You may have made the imdb comment in passing so.....i can't say.
Ebert is entitled to his opinion, others theres. I personally find it odd that you give me two lists where the number one choice on the first falls in the 70's on the other, then you have the top choice on the latter falling at about 50 on the former, whose to say where they "agree" stm lies... Rather both lists having Benhur in the hundreds yet it holds the 11 oscar sweep record(not sure if that record still stands) speaking of the academy, There is something to be said for subjectivity, especially in the discrepancies between the three pillars of official opinion you referenced. Appealing to the "opinion" of authority instead of making the point yourself is a fickle game. Opinions.

That being said, sure, my point was that unlike say, captain america, and not unlike jaws and starwars and , STM is a timeless product of american cinema that has been influential to the artform. As for critical opinion, it has a RT score not much unlike the latter, but where is that going to get us... I mentioned the academy awards, in that STM tends to appear in it's opening montage tribute to film, they tend to include certain kinds of film in that. The matter is clearly subjective but if you want to mention "in passing" that it's not seen as a great picture in American cinema of the past century I have to disagree. Not because I'm "obsessed with disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing" but because I have an opinion. Respectfully.

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Old 09-26-2013, 09:42 AM   #161
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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That's plenty far removed. Because Zod clearly died and we have no definitive evidence of the yellow sun's properties in MoS.
My point was that whether zod died or not, superman’s intent was clear in that moment. If the writers bring zod back in such a way as they have brought back superman himself in canon, that won’t change what the intent was and his intent is what’s on trail to many.) Just as his unshakeable intent is on trail in the clip I referenced. I say it’s dishonest because you are looking at the result and not the issue at hand. It’s not the act of killing but superman choosing to kill not whether he succeeds or not. If zod’s neck isn’t actually broken an he’s still alive, does all this controversy go away? I say nay and that's the point. Acting on intent.

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What's Superman's intent at that juncture? His primary motive was to stop Darkseid from leaving the asteroid and destroying the universe with Brainiac's program. Revenge might be on his mind, and there's plenty of rage on show (by Superman's standards) but we didn't hear him articulate "I'm gonna murder you for murdering Dan Turpin!" so we don't how much of it was occupying his thoughts.

When Batman stopped him and uttered "Don't be a fool!", I read it as 'don't be a fool and give up your morals and your life at the same time'. Because when Superman said "I'm finishing this", he seemed intent on killing Darkseid to save the universe at the cost of his own life by staying behind. There's revenge and there's self-sacrifice mixed into it. Great little scene.
"Heroes save lives, they don't take them." As I have been told so many times during the course of this discussion. That's nice that superman was going to supposedly sacrifice himself, that doesn't change the fact that he was trying to kill one of his rogues(not even in self defense or something like that). I honestly can't believe the turn of this discussion. Superman hates darkseid, and he wants to kill him. Whether it be for Turpin or all the bad things he's done. What's gonna be the defense for when superman wants to kill mongul or the next successful tyrant... Doesn't seem like they are following the precedence for a non killing higher standard that has been brought up in these forums. No way around that.

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Waid didn't say Superman II was cartoony. He said Superman in reply to the interviewer's "in the middle of battle with the Kryptonians he’s catching **** and still managing to save people" that it "can come off corny, but it’s all delivery"
This is the citation on 'cartoon'
Waid: “Yeah, but in Superman II he killed Zod as well”, which was like cartoon violence – defense, the more it occurred to me to remember to step back and stay a little humble about comics themselves.

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Old 09-26-2013, 10:13 AM   #162
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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I disagree with your reading of what he said, and I think what he said very much speaks against your point. Yes, he clearly isn't thrilled by the idea of Superman killing somebody, but he also flat out says that part of the problem is that the filmmakers could have sold it better. And yes, you can argue that he's not talking about Zod's death when he says that and he's only talking about the collateral damage and Superman not having time to stop and save people, but it reads to me like he's talking about both. Remember, this isn't a carefully worded public statement, this is an interview. Sometimes people bounce back and forth between different related thoughts over the course of a sentence. That's how it reads to me.
You can understand my issue with this,

Waids referenced verbal notes on “improvement” pertain to “a more charming characterization” and a better handling of showing this saving people/avoiding collateral. Such as: a more outwardly caring protagonist would have yielded a better superman film for him. He’s gone on to say that the movie works more as a sci fi film but less a superman film, yet another fan centric admission in the realm of film analysis imo. You are taking all this and asserting that he would have been ok with his admitted deal breaker if only the story had been more beholden to your suggested notes for structure. An easy thing to assert, but having little to do with the context of his words. What has he actually said on the matter of killing itself outside of that he “would have been ok with everything but that.”? That last part is my attempt at paraphrasing, what you are seemingly doing is taking his statement and asserting that he means if the film was better he’d be ok with the killing.

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That is the big benefit of serialized storytelling, you can set things up and leave the audience wondering because you will come back to it later in a timely manner. Something that really doesn't apply to movies, which need to be at least somewhat self contained even if they are in a series, so you can't just leave things for the sequel.
My point on them not following up on this particular plot development(superman wanting to kill darksied where he stands) comes by way of:
-The episode ended one and a half minutes after this and superman didn’t “grow” from the revelation. He just told batman to piss off and went on with his righteous business.
-Two, unlike the lingering effects of the luthor killing theme and how it itself was dwelled upon; superman deciding to kill this darkseid was never dwelled on or brought up again.
-Lastly when it’s addressed in the cadmus story line that’s not only reaction to a whole other issue, in the from of luthor but to assert that the pay off came 3 seasons later and in a differently titled show…I just think you need to re-access how you are comparing this to what is being proposed in mos(before its’ even failed).
The fact of the matter is that it all played out as Guard has suggested story telling can play out. One story tying together it’s own themes and plots whilst it’s sequel focusing on other themes an issues with carry over between the two. MOS closed on what it was about(see final line delivery), if it’s producers are to be believed, then it’s sequel will focus on lingering and new themes (see cadmus storyline jumping off of lingering killing theme). A loose example just begging for a tangential discussion would be: Batman Begins ending on the huge character defining notion that batman has inspired organized costumed crime, then actually focusing on all that entails in the direct and serialized sequel, whilst tying it's own plots together in it's own narrative.

This idea that films need to be self-contained in the specific way you have outlined is a personal preference. The art from and how it lands on the audience isn’t so defined. From the tolkein to the potter to the star wars stuff, there is no accounting for how “Film” in and of itself works! Focusing the continuation of this story on the effects of the ending to the previous film is a sound approach. We simply don’t know what the superman trilogy is as of yet but a statement such as film’s operate differently is simply false.

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Old 09-26-2013, 10:21 AM   #163
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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No on all counts? So THE AVENGERS didn't rush through showing the various reactions to the event? That montage is like a minute long.

And I'm pretty sure that that montage was, in fact, expected to cause the audience to feel a certain way. Look at what they're showing, and the statements made within it. Not a lot of subtlety there.

And nevermind that, while there's some show, the actual information revealed is almost all "tell". It's a bunch of sound bytes and news headlines.
For all the times I've read the phrase show don't tell, there is something to be said what the term traditionally means.

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Old 09-26-2013, 10:30 AM   #164
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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Who says he isn't? But that isn't the point of the film. I mean, ok, you bring up the Avengers at the end of your post. I haven't seen it, so maybe these are in the film, but...I mean, do the characters have PTSD flashbacks? Are there scenes where they talk about how tormented they are by the casualties? Do they toast the dead? Do they show any signs of being haunted after the battle is over?
This was in the follow up to the avengers film this past summer.
funny enough.

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Old 09-26-2013, 12:07 PM   #165
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My point was that whether zod died or not, superman’s intent was clear in that moment. If the writers bring zod back in such a way as they have brought back superman himself in canon, that won’t change what the intent was and his intent is what’s on trail to many.)
Agree, the intent is what it is, since it's out there and shown.

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Just as his unshakeable intent is on trail in the clip I referenced. I say it’s dishonest because you are looking at the result and not the issue at hand. It’s not the act of killing but superman choosing to kill not whether he succeeds or not. If zod’s neck isn’t actually broken an he’s still alive, does all this controversy go away? I say nay and that's the point. Acting on intent.
IF. Your whole point here is based on your assumption that the controversy wouldn't go away if Superman had attempted but didn't succeed in killing Zod. I was discussing the specifics of what actually happened, in terms of intent and act.

My points are based on what did transpire:
DCAU -- Superman intended to kill Darkseid but didn't in the end.
MoS -- Superman killed Zod.

Yours is based on the conditional, a big 'what if'. (And you were relying on a non-sequitur when you said "That wouldn't be too far removed from me insisting that kryptonians can't really die under a yellow star as implied in the source material".)

If the movie had shown that Zod survived the neck-break, the "Superman killing" controversy would have taken on a different complexion and discussions a different slant. The act itself is central to the discussion of "Superman choosing to kill".

Predicating the argument on supposition takes it everywhere without going somewhere. I could jolly well follow up on your original line and go what "If Zod’s neck isn’t actually broken and he’s still alive... but because of his near-death experience, he repents, reforms and becomes a born-again Kryptonian?"

"What if Zod survives" and...

(1) becomes an invalid. Superman is wrecked by grief, by what he tried doing and by what he did to Zod etc.
(2) sees the light and joins Superman in the good fight. The focus stays on Zod turning good as much as Superman trying but not succeeding to kill him etc.

Saying that Zod surviving will result in the same controversy, the same degree of it, the same discussions is basically an Elseworlds argument.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you calling Waid out for not levelling a similar complaint against the DCAU's Superman, that, in terms of magnitude of criticism, the act of MoS' Superman killing Zod equals the the DCAU's Superman intent to kill Darkseid in that clip?

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"Heroes save lives, they don't take them." As I have been told so many times during the course of this discussion. That's nice that superman was going to supposedly sacrifice himself, that doesn't change the fact that he was trying to kill one of his rogues(not even in self defense or something like that). I honestly can't believe the turn of this discussion. Superman hates darkseid, and he wants to kill him. Whether it be for Turpin or all the bad things he's done. What's gonna be the defense for when superman wants to kill mongul or the next successful tyrant...
Sure, I follow you here. I personally have no issue with Superman taking a life for the greater good, which leads me to the next line...

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Doesn't seem like they are following the precedence for a non killing higher standard that has been brought up in these forums. No way around that.
To borrow a line from you, "Don't speak for the entire spectrum of MoS detractors!"

Yeah, the view of others might be more in line with Waid's. Me? I'm K OK with the act of Superman killing. My only issue is the execution of it.

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This is the citation on 'cartoon'
Waid: “Yeah, but in Superman II he killed Zod as well”, which was like cartoon violence – defense, the more it occurred to me to remember to step back and stay a little humble about comics themselves.
Waid said the killing of Zod in Superman II "was like cartoon violence", which isn't the same as him saying Superman II is a cartoon film.


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Old 09-26-2013, 01:13 PM   #166
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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Originally Posted by PacificBoy View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you calling Waid out for not levelling a similar complaint against the DCAU's Superman, that, in terms of magnitude of criticism, the act of MoS' Superman killing Zod equals the the DCAU's Superman intent to kill Darkseid in that clip?
Nope, I simply responded to to a post. I stated that the TAS producers/writers have taken superman down a path that would no doubt yield similar controversy among general fan reception if put to live action. I said this when someone nominated the prospect of TAS creative staff taking over for goyer implying that goyer lacks understanding of characterization conducive to successfully pleasing fans. Surely you see how this killing thing isn't exclusive to Goyer in the context of the discussion.

Waid was brought up, as an example of a "fan" that isn't down for superman stories to be taken down the hip road of killing(it's his "deal breaker"). That's when we started with the anaysis of Waids quotes...So yes if in at the end of a live action film, superman declares that "this time, I'm won't stop until you are just a greasy smear on my fist.." I can see Waid's words still applying in his criticism to yield to a more charming more loving, less dark superman. Especially with Orion's limp body just laying there begging to be saved

You are right however, the magnitude would be different(maybe even more) if superman tried but didn't actually kill his opponent, my point is simply that there would be controversy and outcry none the less. Furthermore I for one am down for superman being forced to make tough choices, however you'd see little defense of a blood thirsty superman from my end, unless that was clearly the man jon raised internally to the narrative presented.

Quote:
Sure, I follow you here. I personally have no issue with Superman taking a life for the greater good, which leads me to the next line...



To borrow a line from you, "Don't speak for the entire spectrum of MoS detractors!"
The first part is me speaking to whomever mounted the defense of " Revenge might be on his mind, and there's plenty of rage on show (by Superman's standards) but we didn't hear him articulate "I'm gonna murder you for murdering Dan Turpin!" so we don't how much of it was occupying his thoughts....he seemed intent on killing Darkseid to save the universe at the cost of his own life "
According to you, this justifies him getting ugly, I simply asked what is going to be the next justification if he keeps doing it and effectively becomes a hero that kills when pushed? It's great that you think superman can kill for greater good but we are in the realm of justifying this plot point/motivation.

As for the next line, that was again, towards the initial point of discussion, what the fans who raged against superman killing(in mos) would say if TAS producers took over. I am stacking your defense against one of many issues "I have seen" brought up, like I clearly said "in these forums"

I'm addressing the same spectrum you are. The particular vocal mal contents who have made their thoughts available for public consumption in this particular manner, never said anything about the entire anything.

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Waid said the killing of Zod in Superman II "was like cartoon violence", which isn't the same as him saying Superman II is a cartoon film.
Never said he did.
I said " if he would accept it in a non cartoon film" I avoided the word "animated" specifically to highlight the adjective use. And when asked to clarify I said "No I mean in a film that's not cartoony, as waid referenced superman 2."
I added the 'y' to further highlight the adjective.

follow the trail for yourself if you'd like.

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Old 09-26-2013, 01:26 PM   #167
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

Goyer said this last night:

“One of the things that has been fun for us, is we’re a bit a further along than what I think people realize. From a fan point of view, you're conscious of that when you’re working on these things, but you can’t let yourself be paralyzed by that. At the end of the day you still have to create something. And if you try and think, ‘Well what would the fans like’ then you stop being creative. It’s sort of like where does it end? You have to write the story that you want to write, and hope that people want to see it.”


Goyer is also asked outright who he thinks would win in the fight between Bats and Supes, and while he obviously doesn't give his exact opinion for fear of showing his hand, he does give a diplomatic answer, deferring to what most fans seem to think. “Most comic book purest would says Batman because he is the ultimate strategist. Even though it makes no sense what so ever. If Superman just flicked his finger Batman would be done for.”

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Old 09-26-2013, 01:43 PM   #168
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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Originally Posted by Marvin View Post
Nope, I simply responded to to a post. I stated that the TAS producers/writers have taken superman down a path that would no doubt yield similar controversy among general fan reception if put to live action. I said this when someone nominated the prospect of TAS creative staff taking over for goyer implying that goyer lacks understanding of characterization conducive to successfully pleasing fans. Surely you see how this killing thing isn't exclusive to Goyer in the context of the discussion.
Point taken.

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Originally Posted by Marvin View Post
Waid was brought up, as an example of a "fan" that isn't down for superman stories to be taken down the hip road of killing(it's his "deal breaker"). That's when we started with the anaysis of Waids quotes...So yes if in at the end of a live action film, superman declares that "this time, I'm won't stop until you are just a greasy smear on my fist.." I can see Waid's words still applying in his criticism to yield to a more charming more loving, less dark superman. Especially with Orion's limp body just laying there begging to be saved
Fair enough. The odds are that he might.

Forgive me if I'm reading it wrong, but do you have a bit of a dislike for Waid? Calling him a fan in quotation marks, and a "loud fan" in an earlier post.

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Originally Posted by Marvin View Post
You are right however, the magnitude would be different(maybe even more) if superman tried but didn't actually kill his opponent, my point is simply that there would be controversy and outcry none the less. Furthermore I for one am down for superman being forced to make tough choices, however you'd see little defense of a blood thirsty superman from my end, unless that was clearly the man jon raised internally to the narrative presented.
Ok. The DCAU Supes is a tougher-talking, angrier one for sure (and he's given plenty of ammo throughout the entire animated series), but I don't have him peg as bloodthirsty.

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Originally Posted by Marvin View Post
The first part is me speaking to whomever mounted the defense of " Revenge might be on his mind, and there's plenty of rage on show (by Superman's standards) but we didn't hear him articulate "I'm gonna murder you for murdering Dan Turpin!" so we don't how much of it was occupying his thoughts....he seemed intent on killing Darkseid to save the universe at the cost of his own life "
According to you, this justifies him getting ugly, I simply asked what is going to be the next justification if he keeps doing it and effectively becomes a hero that kills when pushed? It's great that you think superman can kill for greater good but we are in the realm of justifying this plot point/motivation.
Well, the DCAU Justice Lords story arc did show us what happened when he became "a hero that kills when pushed", and Superman's realization that he can readily turn into that dictator was integral to him eventually resolving he can't cross the line when the opportunity to kill Luthor presented itself.

IMO the justification for Superman getting ugly was established and resolved well in the DCAU continuity.

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Originally Posted by Marvin View Post
Never said he did.
I said " if he would accept it in a non cartoon film" I avoided the word "animated" specifically to highlight the adjective use. And when asked to clarify I said "No I mean in a film that's not cartoony, as waid referenced superman 2."
I added the 'y' to further highlight the adjective.

follow the trail for yourself if you'd like.
So you were saying if Waid could accept the DCAU Superman's actions (and tough talk) in a live action?


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Old 09-26-2013, 01:54 PM   #169
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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Originally Posted by roach View Post
Goyer said this last night:

“One of the things that has been fun for us, is we’re a bit a further along than what I think people realize. From a fan point of view, you're conscious of that when you’re working on these things, but you can’t let yourself be paralyzed by that. At the end of the day you still have to create something. And if you try and think, ‘Well what would the fans like’ then you stop being creative. It’s sort of like where does it end? You have to write the story that you want to write, and hope that people want to see it.”

Goyer is also asked outright who he thinks would win in the fight between Bats and Supes, and while he obviously doesn't give his exact opinion for fear of showing his hand, he does give a diplomatic answer, deferring to what most fans seem to think. “Most comic book purest would says Batman because he is the ultimate strategist. Even though it makes no sense what so ever. If Superman just flicked his finger Batman would be done for.”
My views on his writing notwithstanding, I find Goyer speaks sensibly in his interviews and stuff; I actually like his honesty in admitting he finds it easier to write for Batman. It's Snyder who overtalks.

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Old 09-26-2013, 01:59 PM   #170
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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Originally Posted by PacificBoy View Post
My views on his writing notwithstanding, I find Goyer speaks sensibly in his interviews and stuff; I actually like his honesty in admitting he finds it easier to write for Batman. It's Snyder who overtalks.
Agreed. I really like Snyder's work, but he gives some strange rational when explaining his creative decisions.

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Old 09-26-2013, 02:01 PM   #171
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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Originally Posted by roach View Post
Goyer is also asked outright who he thinks would win in the fight between Bats and Supes, and while he obviously doesn't give his exact opinion for fear of showing his hand, he does give a diplomatic answer, deferring to what most fans seem to think. “Wishful thinkers would says Batman because he is the ultimate strategist. Even though it makes no sense what so ever. If Superman just flicked his finger Batman would be done for.”
Fixed.

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Old 09-26-2013, 02:02 PM   #172
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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Originally Posted by DChero View Post
Agreed. I really like Snyder's work, but he gives some strange rational when explaining his creative decisions.
I like Snyder as a person -- he seems a pretty cool dude, and some of his work, but yeah, tuning in to him explaining his oeuvre can be head-scratching.

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Old 09-26-2013, 02:04 PM   #173
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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Originally Posted by roach View Post
Goyer said this last night:

“One of the things that has been fun for us, is we’re a bit a further along than what I think people realize. From a fan point of view, you're conscious of that when you’re working on these things, but you can’t let yourself be paralyzed by that. At the end of the day you still have to create something. And if you try and think, ‘Well what would the fans like’ then you stop being creative. It’s sort of like where does it end? You have to write the story that you want to write, and hope that people want to see it.”


Goyer is also asked outright who he thinks would win in the fight between Bats and Supes, and while he obviously doesn't give his exact opinion for fear of showing his hand, he does give a diplomatic answer, deferring to what most fans seem to think. “Most comic book purest would says Batman because he is the ultimate strategist. Even though it makes no sense what so ever. If Superman just flicked his finger Batman would be done for.”
SO true on the whole "you can only listen to the fans so much" point. You know what tried to adhere slavishly to the fickle whims of its fanbase at every turn? Heroes. And look where that is now.

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Old 09-26-2013, 02:07 PM   #174
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

Wow, Heroes. That's a blast from TV past! The cautionary tale of fanfic taking over.

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Old 09-26-2013, 02:11 PM   #175
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Default Re: David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

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Originally Posted by PacificBoy View Post
I like Snyder as a person -- he seems a pretty cool dude, and some of his work, but yeah, tuning in to him explaining his oeuvre can be head-scratching.
To be honest, he won't upset me unless some of the odd explanation make their way into the movie. The "Death by Cop" reasoning for Zod's death wasn't my favorite and didn't completely come across in the movie to me. Luckily the only thing "canon" is what made the theatrical release, so I can still treat the final confrontation as Zod being mad at Supes instead of trying to kill himself.

PS: I've learned to live with Superman being unable to breath in space because that kind of makes sense.

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