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Old 11-04-2013, 09:53 AM   #101
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Default Re: An Argument For A Batman Who Is At The Peak Of Human Conditioning.

You see, when it comes to Batman I feel he shouldn't be huge. Lobe Alex Ross, Jim Lee, and other artists but one problem I have is how Batman & Superman looks the same size. Superman should be like body builder size in a way.

I've always seen Batman like Michael Jordan or Kobe Bryant. NBA players are more conditioned than NFL or MLB. NFL players sometimes don't even go 10 yards in one drive. NBA players have to run up and down a court more than 100 times a game.

So yea, I've always pictued Batman like MJ or Kobe.

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Old 11-04-2013, 07:59 PM   #102
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I disagree completely. If he looks strained attempting a particularly difficult task, you give the impression that yes, the task is indeed quite difficult and there's a chance he won't succeed. Which is what tension in a movie is all about. The problem with simply relying on the inherent nature of an act to imply how difficult it is and then having the hero pull it off effortlessly is that it feels artificial and it removes any sense that the hero might fail, which deflates the tension. And, in general, it's a lot more exciting to see someone struggle to achieve something and come down to the wire and then win at the very end than to perform effortlessly the whole way through. There's a reason you never see sports movies where the team the story follows score big early on and beat the other team 25-3. Bottom of the ninth, bases are loaded, both scores tied is where the adrenalin starts to kick in.
Generally, you're not wrong. However I do have to exclude Batman in this case particularly because (in my favored interpretations) he's so reticent in all matters. With such an absolute sense of emotional restraint, I don't think it would be appropriate for him to be so expressive. This will have to be dictated in how the character is written, so I would concede it is not the only means of presenting the character.

But I will say when we've just had a Batman who is blatantly transparent, a very nice change of pace (and great way to avoid direct comparisons) is to go in a completely opposite direction that Bale did. Ideally, I shouldn't be able to read Bruce/Batman like a book. If there's something there to be discovered, I should have the feeling I'm still barely scratching the surface of what's really going on.

It's why to this day I still champion Keaton as the only successful Batman; despite being severely underwritten, his performances resonated with me the most. He had the least amount of time dedicated to his past, and yet I could feel this man was burdened and scarred. And his brooding exterior even in the face of danger told me this was a man who knew what he was doing, knew how to control himself, and was practically unafraid of what's to come. To me that speaks more volumes than any elaborate speeches or boisterous exclamations could.

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Okay? That's kind of getting off topic, though.
I was disagreeing with your statements that indicate Batman's exterior is a front. I've always read it as years of self-conditioning which has now become second nature.

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Old 11-04-2013, 08:38 PM   #103
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You see, when it comes to Batman I feel he shouldn't be huge. Lobe Alex Ross, Jim Lee, and other artists but one problem I have is how Batman & Superman looks the same size. Superman should be like body builder size in a way.

I've always seen Batman like Michael Jordan or Kobe Bryant. NBA players are more conditioned than NFL or MLB. NFL players sometimes don't even go 10 yards in one drive. NBA players have to run up and down a court more than 100 times a game.

So yea, I've always pictued Batman like MJ or Kobe.
I disagree. Most NFL players, especially skill position (not big linemen) run 40 yard dashes in 4-6 seconds flat. That's pretty fast, especially considering how big they are. I'm sorry but that is ridiculous. Anyone can go 10 yards in one drive. Hell, just running off the field to the sideline is more than 10 yards. Can't say anything about MLB players, they've never looked fit to me.

I've always thought Batman would be like an NFL safety. They have the speed and athleticism to fly all around the field and sometimes locate and catch the ball, while also having the strength to take on big blockers and tackle big running backs. Strong and fast. NBA players seem more wiry and rangy to me.




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Old 11-04-2013, 09:07 PM   #104
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Given that this batman is going to have to be competitive with a superhuman in some way, so hes going to have to be much closer to the genius batman we know from the comics. But it still must be conveyed that he's still just a human being capable of failure. Its a delicate balance that I'm excited to see in Kiev action for the first time.

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Old 12-13-2013, 12:08 AM   #105
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In it, a 35-year-old Muhammad Ali dodges 21 punches from 19-year-old Michael Dokes -- in 10 seconds flat.

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Old 12-13-2013, 01:17 AM   #106
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Default Re: An Argument For A Batman Who Is At The Peak Of Human Conditioning.

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He was in amazing condition in those movies, except for the third movies, where the injuries and ageing process added depth to the characterisation. Even if Batman is Bruce Lee, he will still age.

I for one am not interested in Batman who builds all his weapons, who is the effective CEO of Wayne Enterprises, and who is in peak physical condition and never gets injured. That simply doesn't work for a mature and educated audience. It might work for the legions of 12 year olds who love Tony Stark's "genius, billionaire, philanthropist, playboy, fortune 500 CEO, superhero" shtick.

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Old 12-13-2013, 09:08 AM   #107
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Default Re: An Argument For A Batman Who Is At The Peak Of Human Conditioning.

Batman was at the peak of human condition in the Nolan films.

I don't know if there's ever been an interpretation where he wasn't.

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Old 12-13-2013, 09:32 AM   #108
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Batman was at the peak of human condition in the Nolan films.

I don't know if there's ever been an interpretation where he wasn't.
When practically every other leading hero of the modern age has looked and/or moved better than any of our Bruce Wayne's, I don't know how anyone could make this argument. There's a reason why a good portion of the fanbase are clamoring for a more physically fit Batman; arguably none of them have fully encapsulated what it takes for the beast of a specimen Bruce is depicted in the books. The very fact this thread even exists (and past iterations of it) should be telling.

It's also strange as 10 years ago I was convinced we would've reach this milestone by now. Bale's casting on paper was absolutely brilliant. Undeniably the most dedicated actor of his generation when it comes to physically portraying his roles. And yet for the most important one of his career, he doesn't even come close to par with the physical exertion he worked for lesser characters. I can perhaps forgive BB as he was on a grueling schedule and already had an uphill climb thanks to his malnourishment. But he should've picked up the slack considerably in the sequels.

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Old 12-13-2013, 10:03 AM   #109
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The very fact this thread even exists (and past iterations of it) should be telling.
Mostly that nerds are clamoring for an over the top energy drink commercial of a power fantasy that seriously does not matter.

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It's also strange as 10 years ago I was convinced we would've reach this milestone by now. Bale's casting on paper was absolutely brilliant. Undeniably the most dedicated actor of his generation when it comes to physically portraying his roles. And yet for the most important one of his career, he doesn't even come close to par with the physical exertion he worked for lesser characters. I can perhaps forgive BB as he was on a grueling schedule and already had an uphill climb thanks to his malnourishment. But he should've picked up the slack considerably in the sequels.
What in God's holy name are you blathering about? Bale was ripped in those movies. He was in amazing shape.

I seriously don't see what was lacking from Bale's Batman in any of those movies. Dude looked like he could kick most people's ass up and down main street like it wasn't a thing. He didn't have any fancy flips or intricate choreography, but he was a huge dude knocking ten guys out with one hit each and moving pretty fast while he did so. Everything else is just window dressing that I don't really see as necessary.


Really, I don't see why people think Nolan's Batman wasn't physical enough. If anything, I think he was too physical. Most of the focus was on his combat training and his gadgets. Nowhere near enough of the focus was on his intellect. The detective part of "The Dark Knight Detective" was seriously underplayed. And maybe I'm in the minority on this, but I think the larger focus with Batman should be on the detective, not the ninja. I see action heroes who can beat people up all the time. Smart people are more interesting.

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Old 12-13-2013, 07:24 PM   #110
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Default Re: An Argument For A Batman Who Is At The Peak Of Human Conditioning.

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Mostly that nerds are clamoring for an over the top energy drink commercial of a power fantasy that seriously does not matter.
Most people who read and post here are nerds, and practically everything we discuss "seriously does not matter". What are you getting at, exactly? Should we close the boards down?

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What in God's holy name are you blathering about? Bale was ripped in those movies. He was in amazing shape.
Ok, well I already know this will quickly to devolve into he-say, she-say, so there's nothing to be gained from discussing this too much. All I'll say is his transformation from Machinist to Batman was amazing, but that's as far as I personally would applaud his physicality in these films. When people like Jackman, Hemsworth, and Cavill are looking like they do, it's not impressive anymore to "merely" be in-shape. Especially in regards to Bruce. His extreme physical regiment is his schtick in the comics. It's not absurd for fans to want that fairly represented in live-action. People can argue it's not important, but it is heavily represented in the source material. So agree to disagree.

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Really, I don't see why people think Nolan's Batman wasn't physical enough. If anything, I think he was too physical. Most of the focus was on his combat training and his gadgets. Nowhere near enough of the focus was on his intellect. The detective part of "The Dark Knight Detective" was seriously underplayed. And maybe I'm in the minority on this, but I think the larger focus with Batman should be on the detective, not the ninja. I see action heroes who can beat people up all the time. Smart people are more interesting.
I don't disagree of where the focus should be, but it's a matter of exceeding in the areas you choose to play in. I can't say I would've complained had there been little to no fighting in the Nolan films. But that isn't the case. There are several fight scenes in the trilogy. And all of them were personally disappointing to look at. So I will obviously judge them on it.

Same goes for the intellectual side of Batman. If they pursue that route, I expect them to excel in presentation. I would definitely rant and rave should they decide to try and portray a smart Bruce, but fail to convey to us he anything above average. Fair is fair.

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Old 12-13-2013, 07:58 PM   #111
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Most people who read and post here are nerds, and practically everything we discuss "seriously does not matter". What are you getting at, exactly? Should we close the boards down?


Ok, well I already know this will quickly to devolve into he-say, she-say, so there's nothing to be gained from discussing this too much. All I'll say is his transformation from Machinist to Batman was amazing, but that's as far as I personally would applaud his physicality in these films. When people like Jackman, Hemsworth, and Cavill are looking like they do, it's not impressive anymore to "merely" be in-shape. Especially in regards to Bruce. His extreme physical regiment is his schtick in the comics. It's not absurd for fans to want that fairly represented in live-action. People can argue it's not important, but it is heavily represented in the source material. So agree to disagree.


I don't disagree of where the focus should be, but it's a matter of exceeding in the areas you choose to play in. I can't say I would've complained had there been little to no fighting in the Nolan films. But that isn't the case. There are several fight scenes in the trilogy. And all of them were personally disappointing to look at. So I will obviously judge them on it.

Same goes for the intellectual side of Batman. If they pursue that route, I expect them to excel in presentation. I would definitely rant and rave should they decide to try and portray a smart Bruce, but fail to convey to us he anything above average. Fair is fair.
It's not he-say she-say, you're just flat wrong.


Not only was his transition from the Machinist a glorified bulk, but he was actually at his most muscularly dense in TDKR. He was just much leaner than in BB.

In BB he just had quite a bit of bulk fat so he LOOKED bigger but was far less conditioned and defined. I remember reading that Bale had completely changed up his style of training for TDKR in favor of something much more accurate to the character.

He had said his goal was to be in 'Olympic' shape in Rises so he did just that, trained with far less isolation and accessory movements that promote size/mass gains and focused solely on becoming the strongest and most agile version of himself.

Rises displayed the closest thing to a real Batman we have ever seen on film.

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Old 12-13-2013, 08:30 PM   #112
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It's not he-say she-say, you're just flat wrong.

What is the purpose of this picture? I assure you I've not been forgetful of Bale's weight fluctuations throughout his career. Nor am I forgetful of how he looked throughout the trilogy.

It remains my position he has been consistently trumped by his peers. Notice how rarely fans of these other franchises even make a peep at the actor's physicality. Yet with Bale it has been a hot topic ever since the first pictures of him came out for The Dark Knight. At the very least it should indicate we have yet to completely reach the ceiling for fan approval in this regard.

Look, it's fantastic there are some who were completely fine with it. To each their own. I've not been roused by people who disagree with my opinion, so I don't know why there seems to be an initiative to try and disprove mine.

It was my mistake to bring up Bale. His run is over and done with anyway, so it's all moot now. Looking onward all eyes will be on Affleck.

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Old 12-13-2013, 08:37 PM   #113
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Default Re: An Argument For A Batman Who Is At The Peak Of Human Conditioning.

I don't think it's that people didn't think Batman was physical.

It's that he wasn't especially graceful.

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Old 12-13-2013, 08:45 PM   #114
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What is the purpose of this picture? I assure you I've not been forgetful of Bale's weight fluctuations throughout his career. Nor am I forgetful of how he looked throughout the trilogy.

It remains my position he has been consistently trumped by his peers. Notice how rarely fans of these other franchises even make a peep at the actor's physicality. Yet with Bale it has been a hot topic ever since the first pictures of him came out for The Dark Knight. At the very least it should indicate we have yet to completely reach the ceiling for fan approval in this regard.

Look, it's fantastic there are some who were completely fine with it. To each their own. I've not been roused by people who disagree with my opinion, so I don't know why there seems to be an initiative to try and disprove mine.

It was my mistake to bring up Bale. His run is over and done with anyway, so it's all moot now. Looking onward all eyes will be on Affleck.
My point was that although his physique might not have been aesthetically pleasing to your eyes, he was not to my personal ideal either, BUT he was definitely more accurate to the character. The type of physique Batman would have would not be an aesthetic one but an efficient one. People throw around the idea that Bale threw in the towel eventually but he was in fact working his hardest in the last film. For what Nolan was trying to achieve, a realistic portrayal of the character, Bale captured it near perfectly. This is not simply my opinion, this is fact. To gain weight, and remain lean as he did means he put in a tremendous amount of effort. If he had chosen to just put on size like his 'peers', he would have done so, but that wasn't the goal. For the type of strength training he was doing, it takes years to attain a large amount of mass/size.

A strength athlete simply will not look like a bodybuilder.


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Old 12-13-2013, 08:57 PM   #115
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My point was that although his physique might not have been aesthetically pleasing to your eyes, he was not to my personal ideal either, BUT he was definitely more accurate to the character. The type of physique Batman would have would not be an aesthetic one but an efficient one. People throw around the idea that Bale threw in the towel eventually but he was in fact working his hardest in the last film. For what Nolan was trying to achieve, a realistic portrayal of the character, Bale captured it perfectly.

A strength athlete simply will not look like a bodybuilder.
Don't mistake me, I'm not asking for a literal translation of a musclebound bodybuilder found in the books. I was perfectly happy with Cavill's shape, despite him being about half the size Supes is in the books. Ditto for Hemsworth. It's understood comics take artistic liberties with their proportions.

No doubt Bale has come the closest in physically representing the character, but I think there's a ways to go before that sweet spot is hit. There are several martial artists and professional fighters who I think have an ideal build for Bruce without looking absurdly comical in their fitness. For the sake of familiarity, Scott Adkins is a good example of the direction I want them to take. He is an actual fighter and at least in terms of physicality, definitely looks the part more than Bale ever has. If there's any question of whether that look translates to strength and agility, one only needs to look him up on YouTube. Guy is an impressive specimen. That's what I want when I look at Batman in action.

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Old 12-13-2013, 08:58 PM   #116
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What is the purpose of this picture? I assure you I've not been forgetful of Bale's weight fluctuations throughout his career. Nor am I forgetful of how he looked throughout the trilogy.

It remains my position he has been consistently trumped by his peers. Notice how rarely fans of these other franchises even make a peep at the actor's physicality. Yet with Bale it has been a hot topic ever since the first pictures of him came out for The Dark Knight. At the very least it should indicate we have yet to completely reach the ceiling for fan approval in this regard.

Look, it's fantastic there are some who were completely fine with it. To each their own. I've not been roused by people who disagree with my opinion, so I don't know why there seems to be an initiative to try and disprove mine.

It was my mistake to bring up Bale. His run is over and done with anyway, so it's all moot now. Looking onward all eyes will be on Affleck.
I still think Begins had the best camerawork for Bale and Batman. Apparently Bale read a truckload of DC comics and influenced Nolan to use camera angles that were reflective of Batman. I don't think the same happened for the sequels. It's funny, but I think BB is the best directed of the Nolan flicks, even though I think the sequels are better written.

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Old 12-13-2013, 09:02 PM   #117
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Don't mistake me, I'm not asking for a literal translation of a musclebound bodybuilder found in the books. I was perfectly happy with Cavill's shape, despite him being about half the size Supes is in the books. Ditto for Hemsworth. It's understood comics take artistic liberties with their proportions.

No doubt Bale has come the closest in physically representing the character, but I think there's a ways to go before that sweet spot is hit. There are several martial artists and professional fighters who I think have an ideal build for Bruce without looking absurdly comical in their fitness. For the sake of familiarity, Scott Adkins is a good example of the direction I want them to take. He is an actual fighter and at least in terms of physicality, definitely looks the part more than Bale ever has. If there's any question of whether that look translates to strength and agility, one only needs to look him up on YouTube. Guy is an impressive specimen. That's what I want when I look at Batman in action.
I want to add that as a fan we all want these super heroes to be adapted as they are in comic books and animated shows, much like Hemsworth, Cavill, etc. but I know first hand strength does NOT equate to size. I am rather tiny compared to the people who train at my gym, weighing around 150lbs at around 5'8, no one expects me to come in and deadlift over 400lbs but that is simply because size is not my goal as a powerlifter. Sorry for the rant

tl;dr Bale was trying to attain a physique of strength not size for a more realistic portrayal of the character, strength doesn't equal size. I like like the bulky aesthetic look too

Also I totally agree, we have not hit that sweet spot of aesthetic/mass and athletic performance with Bruce's physique quite yet on film

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Old 12-13-2013, 09:24 PM   #118
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Great thread, and it's nice to see y'all disagreeing civilly.

"Apparently Bale read a truckload of DC comics and influenced Nolan to use camera angles that were reflective of Batman. I don't think the same happened for the sequels."

Something changed between BB and the later ones. I had never heard that about Bale on BB. I think the Nolan movies were a mixed bag - lots of great, passionately constructed stuff that may never be topped, and lots of total garbage that somehow passed as intelligent or deep (or 'real'). But I for one thought that Bale did a fantastic job, and I wish we had a chance to see him as Bats with a different director/writer. I bet Bale could have even directed on hell of a Batman movie. I'm pumped for Snyder/Fleck, but I can't help but wonder what a Bale/David O Russell collaboration could have done for the character's portrayal in film.

I also agree that Batman's physicality shouldn't be aesthetic. It should be whatever he needs to get the job done right and be ready for the widest variety of challenges. And I'm sure that if you put TDKR era Bale in a ring with whatever Fleck comes up with, Bale would wipe the floor with Fleck. That doesn't say anything about the acting or the creative take, but Bale put in his physical homework, no doubt.


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Old 12-13-2013, 10:30 PM   #119
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Mostly that nerds are clamoring for an over the top energy drink commercial of a power fantasy that seriously does not matter.
Praise be onto The Question !!!

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Old 12-13-2013, 10:45 PM   #120
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And I'm sure that if you put TDKR era Bale in a ring with whatever Fleck comes up with, Bale would wipe the floor with Fleck.
With a world-renowned physical trainer, Zack Snyder, and Ben's naturally larger frame, I'd put money up Ben will zoom past any of the other Batmen as the most imposing Bruce Wayne yet.

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Old 12-14-2013, 12:18 AM   #121
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I don't think it's that people didn't think Batman was physical.

It's that he wasn't especially graceful.
Bingo.

And I expect more out of somebody who has nearly 40K posts to be able make their points without namecalling.

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Old 12-14-2013, 12:52 AM   #122
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I don't think it's that people didn't think Batman was physical.

It's that he wasn't especially graceful.
I agree with this. Batman did some intense stuff in Nolan's movies that a human probably wouldn't survive. But it wasn't well choreographed. It seemed clumsy and like the suit was holding him back. Snyder will fix this. If he can make kryptonians fight, he can make a human fight.

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Old 12-14-2013, 01:05 AM   #123
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Great thread, and it's nice to see y'all disagreeing civilly.

"Apparently Bale read a truckload of DC comics and influenced Nolan to use camera angles that were reflective of Batman. I don't think the same happened for the sequels."

Something changed between BB and the later ones. I had never heard that about Bale on BB. I think the Nolan movies were a mixed bag - lots of great, passionately constructed stuff that may never be topped, and lots of total garbage that somehow passed as intelligent or deep (or 'real'). But I for one thought that Bale did a fantastic job, and I wish we had a chance to see him as Bats with a different director/writer. I bet Bale could have even directed on hell of a Batman movie. I'm pumped for Snyder/Fleck, but I can't help but wonder what a Bale/David O Russell collaboration could have done for the character's portrayal in film.

I also agree that Batman's physicality shouldn't be aesthetic. It should be whatever he needs to get the job done right and be ready for the widest variety of challenges. And I'm sure that if you put TDKR era Bale in a ring with whatever Fleck comes up with, Bale would wipe the floor with Fleck. That doesn't say anything about the acting or the creative take, but Bale put in his physical homework, no doubt.
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Yeah, I feel like Bale has read enough scripts and been in enough movies that I think he'd direct a good one. I actually want to see a leaner, MMA look to Batman

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