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Old 10-19-2013, 07:48 PM   #601
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It makes sense because Tony is a genius in robotics and A.I. He's the one capable of creating Ultron in the MCU becasue of that. Since Tony no longer feels that he needs the suit to be iron man, he can create a substitute, a drone controlled by either Jarvis or a new A.I that does the superhero business for him. It becomes corrupted and goes Rogue. I don't think Arnim Zola will create him since Joss said Ultron will be created within the Avengers themselves.
You have some misconceptions about Tony Stark in the MCU.
1) He is not a "genius in robotics and AI." Yes, he built some robots and AI for his own personal use, but there has never been any evidence that Stark Industries develops any of that commercially.

What Tony Stark *is* is a genius in defense systems and weaponry. That's what his company manufactured. After he got out of the weapons business, he turned to clean and renewable energy as his principal product.

None of this makes him some kind of robotics or AI "expert." And again, it comes back to the fact that Stark is no longer in the weapons business, so he'd have no reason to want to create a killer robot, for himself or for anyone else.

2) Tony Stark gives no indication he no longer needs the suit to be Iron Man. All he did at the end of IM3 was remove the shrapnel from his heart and have the arc reactor taken out. He's still very much Iron Man, and says so specifically. He *will* create a new suit, of that we can be sure. The actual design is still anybody's guess, but I think it's more than reasonable to assume that the events of IM3 point towards Extremis Armor and/or Bleeding Edge, or some amalgam of such. And it's highly unlikely he'd want to create a "drone" Iron Man robot, since his experience with drone battlesuits in IM2 and IM3 was, well, less than satisfactory.

3) Joss never said the Avengers would create Ultron; he just said the origin "comes more directly from the Avengers we already know about." "More directly" doesn't indicate that they literally build the robot; if that's what Joss had meant, he would've said that. And he said that merely in response to questions about Hank Pym --- i.e., he was saying that Pym won't play a part, but the Avengers we already know will contribute, however indirectly.

Having Ultron be created by the nemesis of Captain America, in the name of SHIELD, using Tony Stark's Extremis Armor as the gateway, and, oh yeah, powering the robot with Malekith's Aether.....that pretty much makes every "known Avenger" except Bruce Banner have an indirect hand in the robot's creation. Pretty sure that's what Joss was referring to.

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Old 10-19-2013, 08:47 PM   #602
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3) Joss never said the Avengers would create Ultron; he just said the origin "comes more directly from the Avengers we already know about." "More directly" doesn't indicate that they literally build the robot; if that's what Joss had meant, he would've said that. And he said that merely in response to questions about Hank Pym --- i.e., he was saying that Pym won't play a part, but the Avengers we already know will contribute, however indirectly.

Having Ultron be created by the nemesis of Captain America, in the name of SHIELD, using Tony Stark's Extremis Armor as the gateway, and, oh yeah, powering the robot with Malekith's Aether.....that pretty much makes every "known Avenger" except Bruce Banner have an indirect hand in the robot's creation. Pretty sure that's what Joss was referring to.
I've always thought the Destroyer Tech would be a part of that

I also think Ultron's armor is made of Vibranium

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Old 10-19-2013, 10:10 PM   #603
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See, I don't think you NEED Pym necessarily for a good Ultron story. However, if Ultron is not the direct result of 1 of the Avengers, a key aspect of his character is lost. That makes him just an evil robot that was the result of other evil people. What always hit home about Ultron was, he was created out of good by good people, and that vision was twisted into a horrifying monster. One who is obsessed with his creator and seeks to destroy the family his creator made for himself (aka, the Avengers). If one of the Avengers doesn't create him, I feel like Ultron becomes far more generic and less interesting. I'd rather see Stark or Banner create him (heck, I'd be more ok if some update on Jarvis goes bad and results in Ultron).

I love Pym. I love his dynamic with Ultron. But, I think it is too much for an Avengers movie to not only introduce Ultron, but introduce a character no one knows or cares about at this point in time (we have no Ant-Man movie yet). Thus, I am ok with it.

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Old 10-20-2013, 12:48 AM   #604
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You have some misconceptions about Tony Stark in the MCU.
1) He is not a "genius in robotics and AI." Yes, he built some robots and AI for his own personal use, but there has never been any evidence that Stark Industries develops any of that commercially.

What Tony Stark *is* is a genius in defense systems and weaponry. That's what his company manufactured. After he got out of the weapons business, he turned to clean and renewable energy as his principal product.

None of this makes him some kind of robotics or AI "expert." And again, it comes back to the fact that Stark is no longer in the weapons business, so he'd have no reason to want to create a killer robot, for himself or for anyone else.

2) Tony Stark gives no indication he no longer needs the suit to be Iron Man. All he did at the end of IM3 was remove the shrapnel from his heart and have the arc reactor taken out. He's still very much Iron Man, and says so specifically. He *will* create a new suit, of that we can be sure. The actual design is still anybody's guess, but I think it's more than reasonable to assume that the events of IM3 point towards Extremis Armor and/or Bleeding Edge, or some amalgam of such. And it's highly unlikely he'd want to create a "drone" Iron Man robot, since his experience with drone battlesuits in IM2 and IM3 was, well, less than satisfactory.

3) Joss never said the Avengers would create Ultron; he just said the origin "comes more directly from the Avengers we already know about." "More directly" doesn't indicate that they literally build the robot; if that's what Joss had meant, he would've said that. And he said that merely in response to questions about Hank Pym --- i.e., he was saying that Pym won't play a part, but the Avengers we already know will contribute, however indirectly.

Having Ultron be created by the nemesis of Captain America, in the name of SHIELD, using Tony Stark's Extremis Armor as the gateway, and, oh yeah, powering the robot with Malekith's Aether.....that pretty much makes every "known Avenger" except Bruce Banner have an indirect hand in the robot's creation. Pretty sure that's what Joss was referring to.

A guy that designs and builds robots that can produce the single most advanced exo armor in the world, in the time it takes Tony to drive back and forth between a party, all this being done in a production facility in Tony's basement by the way, is some how NOT a genius in robotics? Just saying.

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Old 10-20-2013, 12:53 AM   #605
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I'm sure Pym will have a role. I feel pretty confident about it

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Old 10-20-2013, 01:01 AM   #606
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I'm sure Pym will have a role. I feel pretty confident about it

Where did you get this info?

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Old 10-20-2013, 01:21 AM   #607
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A guy that designs and builds robots that can produce the single most advanced exo armor in the world, in the time it takes Tony to drive back and forth between a party, all this being done in a production facility in Tony's basement by the way, is some how NOT a genius in robotics? Just saying.
He *tinkers* in robotics; he *builds* weapons. If Stark has any more robots out there besides a couple of literal "Dummies" in his basement, and has worked on any AI beyond his "virtual butler," there's never been any evidence of it in the movies.

Arnim Zola, on the other hand, is not only an expert in robotics and AI --- he is a robot and AI. That makes him supremely more qualified to fill Ultron's creator role than anybody else in the MCU at this point.

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Old 10-20-2013, 01:38 AM   #608
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He *tinkers* in robotics; he *builds* weapons. If Stark has any more robots out there besides a couple of literal "Dummies" in his basement, and has worked on any AI beyond his "virtual butler," there's never been any evidence of it in the movies.

Arnim Zola, on the other hand, is not only an expert in robotics and AI --- he is a robot and AI. That makes him supremely more qualified to fill Ultron's creator role than anybody else in the MCU at this point.

I would say the evidence is the fully functional exo armor produced in record time IN HIS BASEMENT. I kind of have to assume that a totally automated production facility controlled by his private A.I., that could produce the IM armor has to have advanced robotics as part of it's production capabilities. I mean, I hope Tony's home factory is at least as advanced as your average auto parts plant. Plus, and I could be wrong, but when Tony is being honored at the start of IM1 is not one of the things they say he's ushered in is cutting edge robotics?

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Old 10-20-2013, 05:15 AM   #609
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From what we've seen in the Marvel movies, Stark is at the very LEAST the equal to Zola in robotics, and I saw no Zola-designed AI. So if HE'S an expert in these fields, then so is Stark, even taking into account the difference in years from what we've seen...

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Old 10-20-2013, 07:48 AM   #610
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Having Ultron be created by the nemesis of Captain America
Zola?

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Old 10-20-2013, 09:43 AM   #611
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How is Stark not a genius in AI? JARVIS is super advanced so much so that tony speaks with him as if he were a real person. I really don't see Zola creating Ultron, it just doesn't sit right with me.

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Old 10-20-2013, 10:54 AM   #612
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I would say the evidence is the fully functional exo armor produced in record time IN HIS BASEMENT. I kind of have to assume that a totally automated production facility controlled by his private A.I., that could produce the IM armor has to have advanced robotics as part of it's production capabilities. I mean, I hope Tony's home factory is at least as advanced as your average auto parts plant. Plus, and I could be wrong, but when Tony is being honored at the start of IM1 is not one of the things they say he's ushered in is cutting edge robotics?
Again, though, that's for his personal use; there's no indication that Stark Industries is in the robotics business. Yes, Stark is a genius who *could* build a robot like Ultron, but I see no conceivable reason for him to want to. A guy who's become a virtual pacifist suddenly wanting to build a killer robot? For a government agency he absolutely despises? Or as a remote control Iron Man....? There's nothing at all heroic about piloting a distant drone from the comfort of your own home or office, and that would go against the whole "lay down on a wire for your brothers" heroics he's been cultivating since becoming an Avenger. Nor did Tony's forays into remote control battlesuits go particularly well in IM3 --- pretty much the whole movie was about those remote control features being on the fritz.

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How is Stark not a genius in AI? JARVIS is super advanced so much so that tony speaks with him as if he were a real person. I really don't see Zola creating Ultron, it just doesn't sit right with me.
And Tony knows and understands JARVIS down to the finest detail. Which hardly explains how or why he'd create an AI/robot that becomes so advanced that even Tony Stark can't control it.

Makes a lot more sense that the reason Tony Stark can't control it is because it's not his tech.


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From what we've seen in the Marvel movies, Stark is at the very LEAST the equal to Zola in robotics, and I saw no Zola-designed AI. So if HE'S an expert in these fields, then so is Stark, even taking into account the difference in years from what we've seen...


We saw Zola's blueprints for his (in)famous comic-book android body in CATFA. And Zola is one of the MCU's most underrated geniuses. The dude was able to handle a frickin' alien artifact, harness its powers, and start mass-producing weaponry from it. Nobody at SHIELD could even fathom its secrets, not even Erik Selvig or Howard Stark. Zola played with it like his own personal toy.

Speaking of Howard Stark, you could bring in the psychological/oedipal angle that Ultron is famous for by saying that Howard had a hand in its design. Imagine how Tony would feel if, midway through the movie, he finds out that his own dad helped Arnim Zola build this instrument of genocide. It'd be an indirect legacy battle between Howard and Tony.

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Old 10-20-2013, 11:23 AM   #613
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Again, though, that's for his personal use; there's no indication that Stark Industries is in the robotics business. Yes, Stark is a genius who *could* build a robot like Ultron, but I see no conceivable reason for him to want to. A guy who's become a virtual pacifist suddenly wanting to build a killer robot? For a government agency he absolutely despises? Or as a remote control Iron Man....? There's nothing at all heroic about piloting a distant drone from the comfort of your own home or office, and that would go against the whole "lay down on a wire for your brothers" heroics he's been cultivating since becoming an Avenger. Nor did Tony's forays into remote control battlesuits go particularly well in IM3 --- pretty much the whole movie was about those remote control features being on the fritz.
A pacifist you say? Even though he was wasting people in IM3. Yep pacifist alright :') How will Tony know he's creating a killer-robot? Did Hank know that Ultron will go rogue when he created him? Your statement makes no sense.So When Tony remote-controlled the Mark 42 into helping the 13 people falling from Air-Force one to their deaths, there was nothing heroic about that?

Quote:
And Tony knows and understands JARVIS down to the finest detail. Which hardly explains how or why he'd create an AI/robot that becomes so advanced that even Tony Stark can't control it.

Makes a lot more sense that the reason Tony Stark can't control it is because it's not his tech.
A.I's can be corrupted and go rogue. Ultron went Rogue and Hank couldn't control him most of the time yet it was his creation. So I don't know what you're talking about Tony not being able to control it because it's not his tech.



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We saw Zola's blueprints for his (in)famous comic-book android body in CATFA. And Zola is one of the MCU's most underrated geniuses. The dude was able to handle a frickin' alien artifact, harness its powers, and start mass-producing weaponry from it. Nobody at SHIELD could even fathom its secrets, not even Erik Selvig or Howard Stark. Zola played with it like his own personal toy.

Speaking of Howard Stark, you could bring in the psychological/oedipal angle that Ultron is famous for by saying that Howard had a hand in its design. Imagine how Tony would feel if, midway through the movie, he finds out that his own dad helped Arnim Zola build this instrument of genocide. It'd be an indirect legacy battle between Howard and Tony.
I don't think Zola will create Ultron. I highly doubt that.


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Old 10-20-2013, 11:44 AM   #614
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Ultron is very much the Frankenstein's monster archetype. The character isn't just a generic kill all humans robot. The characters creation and relation to it's creator is the main drive behinds its actions.

However Ulton is created in this film it should relate to its motivation for wanting to do evil.
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I'm sure Pym will have a role. I feel pretty confident about it
I'm still not a 100% convinced Marvel won't pull a Mandarin (out right lie to the press) and have Pym pop up in the Avengers or after credit scene in some capacity or another. I don't think he will have a hand in creating Ultron but I still think they might make some mention of him or he will make a 'Hawkeye in Thor' sized appearance. It seems like to good of a opportunity to not utilize the character in some capacity to generate more buzz for his solo film.

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Old 10-20-2013, 12:08 PM   #615
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Where did you get this info?
just a hunch my dude :P

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Ultron is very much the Frankenstein's monster archetype. The character isn't just a generic kill all humans robot. The characters creation and relation to it's creator is the main drive behinds its actions.

However Ulton is created in this film it should relate to its motivation for wanting to do evil.

I'm still not a 100% convinced Marvel won't pull a Mandarin (out right lie to the press) and have Pym pop up in the Avengers or after credit scene in some capacity or another. I don't think he will have a hand in creating Ultron but I still think they might make some mention of him or he will make a 'Hawkeye in Thor' sized appearance. It seems like to good of a opportunity to not utilize the character in some capacity to generate more buzz for his solo film.
I don't think he'll turn up in this movie. We'll see what happens in ant-man I suppose

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Old 10-20-2013, 01:22 PM   #616
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He *tinkers* in robotics; he *builds* weapons. If Stark has any more robots out there besides a couple of literal "Dummies" in his basement, and has worked on any AI beyond his "virtual butler," there's never been any evidence of it in the movies.

Arnim Zola, on the other hand, is not only an expert in robotics and AI --- he is a robot and AI. That makes him supremely more qualified to fill Ultron's creator role than anybody else in the MCU at this point.
Jarvis is a highly advanced AI, and he knows all about computer systems and designing computer systems. The Iron Man armor itself utilizes elements of robotics, and he even made them operational by computers or remote control. Thus, they're effectively robots. Tony Stark has definitely shown he can create a robot of advanced intelligence. Plus, if Ultron isn't built by one of the Avengers, then the entire Frankenstein's monster elements of him is lost, and then there is little point in making him Ultron. Thematically speaking, that is a mistake. I'd much rather see Ultron the result of a collaboration between Stark and Banner than the result of Zola or a 3rd party.

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Old 10-20-2013, 01:23 PM   #617
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Arnim Zola creating Ultron makes even less sense than Tony Stark creating him and departs from the comics even further.

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Old 10-20-2013, 03:13 PM   #618
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We saw Zola's blueprints for his (in)famous comic-book android body in CATFA. And Zola is one of the MCU's most underrated geniuses. The dude was able to handle a frickin' alien artifact, harness its powers, and start mass-producing weaponry from it. Nobody at SHIELD could even fathom its secrets, not even Erik Selvig or Howard Stark. Zola played with it like his own personal toy.
You imply Zola is a genius in robotics and AI, but Stark is not. Even though Stark is the one who actually builds hugely advanced robotics with fully functional AI, while Zola.... has not.
Zola manages to work with and harness an incredibly powerful alien power source - how does this turn him into a robotics and AI-genius? It was mentioned that he was building other 'toys' for Red Skull, but I can't remember them ever being robots or AIs.

I also don't understand how Stark or his company not producing robots or AI commercially disqualifies Stark from being considered an expert/genius in the field.

Zola will build Ultron like you thought those kids at the floating cement truck were practicing magic

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Old 10-20-2013, 04:00 PM   #619
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I'm still not a 100% convinced Marvel won't pull a Mandarin (out right lie to the press) and have Pym pop up in the Avengers or after credit scene in some capacity or another. I don't think he will have a hand in creating Ultron but I still think they might make some mention of him or he will make a 'Hawkeye in Thor' sized appearance. It seems like to good of a opportunity to not utilize the character in some capacity to generate more buzz for his solo film.
I would love this! That said, I'm not getting my hopes up, and I'll just naively take Marvel's word at face value until I have evidence to the contrary...

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Old 10-20-2013, 07:27 PM   #620
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You imply Zola is a genius in robotics and AI, but Stark is not. Even though Stark is the one who actually builds hugely advanced robotics with fully functional AI, while Zola.... has not.
Zola manages to work with and harness an incredibly powerful alien power source - how does this turn him into a robotics and AI-genius? It was mentioned that he was building other 'toys' for Red Skull, but I can't remember them ever being robots or AIs.

I also don't understand how Stark or his company not producing robots or AI commercially disqualifies Stark from being considered an expert/genius in the field.

Zola will build Ultron like you thought those kids at the floating cement truck were practicing magic
Tony is definitely capable of some crazy stuff, and I have no doubt that he is great at robotics, however I think he needs a little help with the AI part from time to time. The whole brain science side. Killian's brain being shown to us is no accident, "the live feed to his brain".
IM3 could be kind of psychological in nature, and there are some things that point to things going on beneath the surface. Banner's credit scene could hold a lot more meaning by the end of phase 2. Tony questioning things and wondering if it's his brain, although it turns out to be panic/his nervous system right now, which could be a subconscious thing.
He might not consciously be aware that something is still giving him bad dreams/affecting him. Tony never really got past his fears about the wormhole he just suppressed them.. He doesn't want to die and leave Pepper alone, and needs to understand how things work..
Tony doesn't want her to be left alone like how his father left him alone, but he had Jarvis to help take care of him later in life....

He could control the suits with his mind and the wrist implants, so Tony is looking into how to control robots with his consciousness. But has Marvel specifically stated that Jarvis was created by Tony? I have a feeling that Jarvis is a lot more advanced than most of the AI Tony has and has existed since before IM1. Maybe it has a lot to do with Tony's father's role in CA2, maybe Tony's dad left him that AI as a Butler, and Tony doesn't really know what happened with his father when he left in between CA1 and CA2... Did Stark know his father was running Shield for a while? During CA1 Howard had already begun looking into robotics and AI with the android human torch and the flying cars that some of Shield has now. I think Howard Stark is a robotic genius, and passed this on to Stark, but that Howard may have left the earliest version of Jarvis for Tony to keep building from... and that Tony created all his other robot's personalities.. His subconscious was controlling the suit in his sleep, so he's found a way to control tech that usually just functions as an extension of himself with his brain. The smaller robots might have a less advanced form of AI in them. Maybe Jarvis takes up a lot of space/ram/memory and it's hard to create a physical robot that smart, who isn't plugged in to a power source. Maybe Jarvis now secretly supplies wireless power to some of the suits now that the arc reactor doesn't need to be in Tony's body.

Scientists in the real world now say that in about 40 years we may actually be able to upload our consciousness into robot bodies. It would take an incredible amount of energy to transfer human consciousness into a robot... Tony has no desire to do such a thing just yet, although he controls robotics/tech with his mind.
Zola does have this desire to actually become a robot in the comics...
We have heard statements from the filmmakers suggesting that Zola wants to live forever. If Zola has found a way to upload his consciousness into a robot body, he is still not a master of AI... He is a master of robotics and brain science... storing/transferring brain patterns or operating systems. The software for the hardware.... Zola would still be a genius in robotics, if he has used the time between movies to become his robot form, and is even 40 years ahead of what our scientists are thinking about doing with uploading to robot bodies.

The suits are almost controlled robotics in IM3, so Stark can probably be very good at building robots, but the other robots Stark has have artificial minds that are a lot less intelligent than Jarvis. If Stark could make an AI as advanced as Jarvis all the time, why put up with the robots who wear the dunce cap and make mistakes... maybe they're his creations, whereas Howard Stark didn't completely leave Tony alone, and left him with Jarvis. "Dad's leave, there's no reason to be a ***** about it".
Stark repressed his daddy issues, but we've seen hints that Howard Stark will be addressed in CA2, in some way.
I believe Howard Stark could be our AI genius, whereas Zola has just found how to transfer human intelligence/consciousness into his machines, to allow himself to have a body that could live forever (this would have been before attaining regeneration of cells and infinite regeneration of the telomeres as genetic science became more popular again for Zemo and AIM...). Zola may already be a robot by the time the movie starts.


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Old 10-20-2013, 07:30 PM   #621
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I have no dog in the "who builds Ultron" hunt. No Pym involvment is what we'll most likely be getting and I have to live with that.

Just popped in my IM1 bluray and in the media package played in the ceremony honoring Tony "advanced robotics" is specifically mentioned. Not tinkering.

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Old 10-20-2013, 07:34 PM   #622
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I have no dog in the "who builds Ultron" hunt. No Pym involvment is what we'll most likely be getting and I have to live with that.

Just popped in my IM1 bluray and in the media package played in the ceremony honoring Tony "advanced robotics" is specifically mentioned. Not tinkering.

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Old 10-20-2013, 08:52 PM   #623
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Upgrade section 5

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A pacifist you say? Even though he was wasting people in IM3. Yep pacifist alright :')
Didn't know you were going to go into semantics here. All right, sorry I wasn't clear about "pacifist" meaning in the sense of one who is opposed to war and militarism. Tony can still kick as much ass as he wants; he just doesn't have any use for armies or wars anymore.



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So When Tony remote-controlled the Mark 42 into helping the 13 people falling from Air-Force one to their deaths, there was nothing heroic about that?
Nope. Firefighters, policemen, and EMTs are considered "heroes" because they lay their life on the line to save other people's lives; 911 operators save lives, too, but their work is not generally considered "heroic" because there is no risk assumed on their part. When Tony r/c's a drone, he's in that same boat --- i.e., he's not risking his life in that situation, so his work can hardly be considered "heroic" there.



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How will Tony know he's creating a killer-robot? Did Hank know that Ultron will go rogue when he created him? Your statement makes no sense. A.I's can be corrupted and go rogue. Ultron went Rogue and Hank couldn't control him most of the time yet it was his creation. So I don't know what you're talking about Tony not being able to control it because it's not his tech.
Hank Pym didn't know he'd created Ultron. Ultron mindwiped him, and Pym didn't find out he was the creator until long after the Avengers' first encounter with him.


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You imply Zola is a genius in robotics and AI, but Stark is not. Even though Stark is the one who actually builds hugely advanced robotics with fully functional AI, while Zola.... has not.
Zola manages to work with and harness an incredibly powerful alien power source - how does this turn him into a robotics and AI-genius? It was mentioned that he was building other 'toys' for Red Skull, but I can't remember them ever being robots or AIs.
a) It's what Arnim Zola is known for in the comics.
b) And it's what he specializes in through the CATFA movie tie-ins. In the officially licensed prequel comics leading into CATFA, Zola's primary specialty pre-WWII was in building advanced exoskeletons and robots. Cap fought whole armies of them both in those prequel comics, and in the tie-in video game.

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Old 10-20-2013, 09:09 PM   #624
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How can someone seriously say Tony isn't a hero, these movies are about super HEROES.

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Old 10-20-2013, 11:00 PM   #625
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You messing with me, Spider-Surfer?

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