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Old 10-14-2013, 03:44 PM   #201
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 3

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Yeah.

I really wonder what the enthusiasm for this film will be like in a year especially from all the people that were heart-broken by Man of Steel.

This time twelve months ago MOS was all I was thinking about. It was unhealthy obsession. I can't see myself doing that again for this film. Not after the emotional roller-coaster that was June 14.

I'd love to be proven wrong but I'm sure the writing is going to be the weakest point again. At least we're not going to have the awkward structuring of flashbacks/present time. It's still hard to tell if the clunky pacing of MOS fell on the editing bay or the script. I just wish there was a great writer involved. I think we can expect good; possibly MOS level good; but I just can't expect anything great from Snyder/Goyer. I hate to be a cynic but I really just don't think they have it in them. Plus the very blockbuster-ish nature of the film being a Superman/Batman team-up doesn't really inspire the most beautiful of stories.

It's going to be a big loud action movie with Snyder exercising his nerd cred by putting to film the most comic-booky of visuals of the two greatest heroes together. Should we expect anything more? And I think it's a certainty that the hype will revolve around the new Batman.
Couldn't agree more.

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I completely agree, and that's all I'm expecting. Snyder has got to be primed to unleash his inner fanboy on this movie, and that's probably exactly what WB wants him to do. I think the primary goal here is to make this film a must-see event for the masses to stay afloat in the summer of Star Wars and Avengers, and to make something that will be a massive geek out for the fans. It's kind of like the parents are gone for the weekend (the Nolans are no longer involved with Batman) and the kids are about to throw the biggest house party ever.

There's nothing wrong with those things, if they want to make that kind of film then by all means they should make it and I'm willing to go into the film on those terms. I have nothing against a purely fun comic book film with a dash of substance on the side. I just hope if that's the case, it's reflected in the advertising. The thing is, all of Snyder's movies look like masterpieces from their trailers, and WB has a reputation of being the "weightier" of the two brands and probably wants to uphold that too.

And if Snyder and Goyer manage to surprise me and exercise restraint here to a point where it truly feels like choices are being made for organic story reasons first and foremost, I'm happy to be proven wrong too.
Yeah i'm sort of getting ready to enjoy it on the same sort of level I enjoyed Pacific Rim.

I mean, I came out of that film going 'OMG, I just saw a man powered giant robot, slaying a dragon with a giant sword.... IN SPACE!' I was seriously psyched.

That sense of just having bigger and more incredible or unbelievable things happening on screen can be a pretty fun ride.

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Old 10-14-2013, 03:55 PM   #202
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Couldn't agree more.



Yeah i'm sort of getting ready to enjoy it on the same sort of level I enjoyed Pacific Rim.

I mean, I came out of that film going 'OMG, I just saw a man powered giant robot, slaying a dragon with a giant sword.... IN SPACE!' I was seriously psyched.

That sense of just having bigger and more incredible or unbelievable things happening on screen can be a pretty fun ride.
Oh god I hope not. Pacific Rim was one of the worst movies I've seen in a long time. The script was absolutely terrible, oh my god. I was ready to walk out ten minutes in

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Old 10-14-2013, 04:06 PM   #203
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 3

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Oh god I hope not. Pacific Rim was one of the worst movies I've seen in a long time. The script was absolutely terrible, oh my god. I was ready to walk out ten minutes in
But.... he slayed a DRAGON!... IN SPACE!!!!!!!!


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I think back to my father. As a farmer, he had a natural understanding for the Earth. I remember him telling me this world is capable of providing for all its creatures. Even now, with so many more people, there exists enough food for everyone.

"The problem," Pa used to say, "is people. As far back as we go, we've always had problems with sharing. Seems everyone's too busy holding on to what they've got to care how their neighbors are doing."


*\S/T*
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Old 10-14-2013, 04:20 PM   #204
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 3

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Oh god I hope not. Pacific Rim was one of the worst movies I've seen in a long time. The script was absolutely terrible, oh my god. I was ready to walk out ten minutes in


What the!!

I loved it. It was 17 1/2 different kinds of cool.

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Old 10-14-2013, 04:25 PM   #205
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I liked that they took the core elements of Superman, kept them, but also did some new stuff. Why would I want to see the same old thing yet again, especially in a reboot. That makes no sense.
Core elements like what? Sure he could fly and shoot lasers from his eyes.

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Old 10-14-2013, 04:33 PM   #206
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I totally agree, I'm up for it but I just hope they're honest about what they're doing and the marketing reflects the actual tone of the movie. Personally I found somewhat of a disconnect between the Man of Steel trailers and the actual movie, which made it seem like this quieter, more introspective film ala Batman Begins. I think that really effected how I took in the movie the first time around.
I still loved MOS even though I agree. The movie had way more one-liners and CRAZY amounts of destruction/fighting sequences. The trailers made me think of a Nolan film with some JJ Abrams sci-fi thrown in on top. But it didn't feel like it was a Nolan movie at all. It felt more Snyder than I thought it would (which I should at myself for). And even more on the Abrams side of things.

Of course all of that stuff should be toned down here. There's no alien invasion. They know the critics couldn't stomach the amount of destruction in Metropolis, plus this is a different plot, so we wont be getting that again.

That might make it even easier for them to advertise this movie as some Nolan type thing. But I hope not.

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Old 10-14-2013, 04:36 PM   #207
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 3

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Oh god I hope not. Pacific Rim was one of the worst movies I've seen in a long time. The script was absolutely terrible, oh my god. I was ready to walk out ten minutes in
Pacific Rim was good fun. The action was insane. But the script was ****ing terrible. Every side character made me want to fight the next 16 people I saw. Just awful "comic relief" characters and moments. Ughh.

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Old 10-14-2013, 04:38 PM   #208
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The next movie has some advantages and disadvantages. I think not having Krypton and the codex will help the next movie.

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Old 10-14-2013, 04:46 PM   #209
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The next movie has some advantages and disadvantages. I think not having Krypton and the codex will help the next movie.
Good point. We have no codex, no Krypton, no other aliens besides Superman, no father figures with their life lessons, no Independence Day like plots.

Zack once said that MOS believe it or not was his most realistic movie because of all the over the top stuff he's done in the past. Well, I think this one will be a lot more toned down than MOS.

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Old 10-14-2013, 05:00 PM   #210
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 3

I have a strong feeling many naysayers will be pleasantly surprised when this movie rolls out, if not extremely pleased with the outcome. Seems there's disconnect between fans as to what we can expect.

One of the more popular opinions is that this Batman/Superman film will be little more than a big, dumb, loud, action-packed adventure with little substance behind the visuals. While I expect we'll see our fair share of jaw-dropping action in this, I don't think they're going to go as over-the-top as they did with the last 45 minutes of MOS. In other words, I think that with this film, they'll rely a little more on pure tension, suspense, and nuance...whilst still delivering the action everyone wants to see.

There is absolutely no reason to write this movie off as a "cop-out" or simply a "fun comic book movie". No reason for some people to be so pessimistic about the whole thing. Of course it will and should be fun to watch, but after the reactions/reviews for MOS, wouldn't you imagine Snyder & Goyer would know to tone down the action a notch and deliver more of a memorable story? I mean, the combo of Bats and Supes allows for some epic conflict and storytelling. These guys must be having a blast working on this film as we speak.

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Old 10-14-2013, 05:05 PM   #211
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 3

The choice of villain is also key. It's easier to tone things down a little if you're dealing with Lex Luthor rather than say Doomsday.

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Old 10-14-2013, 05:06 PM   #212
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I do think it will have more popcorn elements than Nolan's, but a lot more subtle than Man Of Steel. Now that I think of it, it might be the perfect recipe. The kind of thing the MOS haters wanted to see originally. You know, no killing from Superman, more Daily Planet stuff with Clark and less destruction.

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Old 10-14-2013, 05:08 PM   #213
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I didn't realize how much I missed Clark at the Daily Planet until I saw him there at the end.

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Old 10-14-2013, 05:09 PM   #214
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When i saw the teaser trailer, it looked really dramatic - beautiful sun sets, natural locations, real time shot of him soaring through the sky, it looked too good to be true. I felt we were going to watch an epic origin story or a man's struggle to come to terms with his alienation!

The second wave of spoilers i was like, woah, there is action!! baring in mind a trailer is only 3 minutes of the whole film - i put it down to editing really well, choosing key moments.

I left wanting more, as i felt i didn't see a true superman film, in the sense he wasn't the true superman.

I left thinking... is that it?? i wanted to leave really knowing clark, rooting for him at the end.

I just wish the flash back scenes were shorter, almost glimpses, as clark (narrates) to lois what he has struggled with.

The boat scene, ala Jaws could have been a good 10/15 minutes of seeing clark interact with other guys, maybe sharing a few stories and really promoting the nomad lifestyle.

John's death should have happened in the present time, not a flash back, that way after spending time building the relationship, he is gone.

The AI Jor El was too much, he should have appeared on screens - been more robotic, surely if a computer form of Jor El can live on, he would have uploaded lara too?!

There should have been a scene showing how the suit works - a belt that (through nano tech) grows over them - anyways, fact is, i wanted a lot more than what i got, it felt like i was watching an extended trailer to a great movie that is like 4 hours long.

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Old 10-14-2013, 05:11 PM   #215
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I didn't realize how much I missed Clark at the Daily Planet until I saw him there at the end.
i kinda felt, or said to myself... 'finally... what i am here for' and then it finished... not that i didn't enjoy man of steel, but i have a certain expectation

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Old 10-14-2013, 05:12 PM   #216
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What the!!

I loved it. It was 17 1/2 different kinds of cool.
Sorry that I don't have the mind of a second grader. Maybe then I could enjoy the mindless "fun" of Pacific Rim, and ignore how terribly every human character was written. I'm all for big popcorn movies, but not soulless and mindless ones like Pacific Rim. That movie was unbelievably boring aside from the monster battles. Even then, I thought the designs for the robots and monsters were weak. Honestly it was one of the few movies where I've wanted to walk out of the theater, but my friend paid for my ticket, so sadly it would've been rude to leave.

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Old 10-14-2013, 05:14 PM   #217
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The choice of villain is also key. It's easier to tone things down a little if you're dealing with Lex Luthor rather than say Doomsday.
Or Zod and other Kryptonians.

You make a good point. W already had half of a space epic with MOS. An extended sequence set on Krypton, interaction with Jor-El on a spaceship, black holes, a full scale alien invasion complete with a "world engine" which attempted to essentially turn Earth into Krypton. On top of all that, we had Superman up against several Kryptonian warriors who, at times, were decked out in alien armor.

I think the key to this Batman/Superman film is to go a little smaller this time and give us a story that is a little more grounded and Earth-bound. There's little doubt that we'll be getting an even more space-centric story in the eventual Justice League movie, but this particular movie is a perfect opportunity to deliver more of a self-contained thriller on a grand scale...less of a rock 'em/sock 'em destruction party. Batman investigating Superman, Superman untrusting of Batman/Bruce's methods and unsure of his motivations...all the while with something more sinister going on right under their noses.

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Old 10-14-2013, 05:17 PM   #218
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There's a limit to how effective Batman is as a physical force and I think having Batman in there immediately means the action will be taken down a notch.
I imagine that having the same levels of destruction in the final act of MoS 2 that we had in MoS could overshadow Batman's role in the film to a certain extent.

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Old 10-14-2013, 05:19 PM   #219
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When i saw the teaser trailer, it looked really dramatic - beautiful sun sets, natural locations, real time shot of him soaring through the sky, it looked too good to be true. I felt we were going to watch an epic origin story or a man's struggle to come to terms with his alienation!

The second wave of spoilers i was like, woah, there is action!! baring in mind a trailer is only 3 minutes of the whole film - i put it down to editing really well, choosing key moments.

I left wanting more, as i felt i didn't see a true superman film, in the sense he wasn't the true superman.

I left thinking... is that it?? i wanted to leave really knowing clark, rooting for him at the end.

I just wish the flash back scenes were shorter, almost glimpses, as clark (narrates) to lois what he has struggled with.

The boat scene, ala Jaws could have been a good 10/15 minutes of seeing clark interact with other guys, maybe sharing a few stories and really promoting the nomad lifestyle.

John's death should have happened in the present time, not a flash back, that way after spending time building the relationship, he is gone.

The AI Jor El was too much, he should have appeared on screens - been more robotic, surely if a computer form of Jor El can live on, he would have uploaded lara too?!

There should have been a scene showing how the suit works - a belt that (through nano tech) grows over them - anyways, fact is, i wanted a lot more than what i got, it felt like i was watching an extended trailer to a great movie that is like 4 hours long.
Im happy with MOS. He doesn't truly become Superman or Clark Kent until the very end, and that's what I was expecting. So it didn't disappoint. I think people had certain expectations of where the story was going to go, and so they were upset. But you should never think too much going into a movie.

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Old 10-14-2013, 05:28 PM   #220
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Sorry that I don't have the mind of a second grader. Maybe then I could enjoy the mindless "fun" of Pacific Rim, and ignore how terribly every human character was written. I'm all for big popcorn movies, but not soulless and mindless ones like Pacific Rim. That movie was unbelievably boring aside from the monster battles. Even then, I thought the designs for the robots and monsters were weak. Honestly it was one of the few movies where I've wanted to walk out of the theater, but my friend paid for my ticket, so sadly it would've been rude to leave.
I'm a big fan of Del Toro. I really enjoyed Blade II and Pan's Labyrinth. But I thought Pacific Rim was very mediocre. Like you, I enjoyed the monster fights, and also the score, but I found the characters and the dialogue extremely cliche.

I'm also bored with action movies ending with the detonation of a nuclear bomb. That used to be original, not anymore.

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Old 10-14-2013, 05:28 PM   #221
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I think that with this film, they'll rely a little more on pure tension, suspense, and nuance...whilst still delivering the action everyone wants to see.
I really, really hope you're right. The wall I'm hitting though, is that those aren't qualities that I typically associate with either Snyder or Goyer's work (despite his work on TDK Trilogy).

Affleck could be that X Factor that makes the whole production step it up a notch. We'll see.

I do see how the story seems to lend itself to something a bit more grounded and less over the top than MoS. But at the same time, it's a sequel and it's a huge event film...it's hard to imagine Snyder wanting to go "smaller" despite the criticisms. He's never been a critical darling anyway and seems like the guy who'd sooner double the amount of action as a middle finger to his critics than try to appease them.

That said, I still think the key to solving this problem would be to shoot some realllly impressive stuff practically (ala the TDKR prologue) and make it feel less like a video game. Less actual minutes of action, but more impressive 'moments', more wire work where you can actually see Cavill's face and get more invested. That would be a best case scenario for me. I'm hoping that Batman's presence in the movie pushes things a bit more in that direction.

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Old 10-14-2013, 05:30 PM   #222
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The choice of villain is also key. It's easier to tone things down a little if you're dealing with Lex Luthor rather than say Doomsday.
I used to think that the villain was the most important thing to a comic book movie, and then I saw MoS. That movie wasn't missing a villain, it was missing a hero.

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Old 10-14-2013, 05:34 PM   #223
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I really, really hope you're right. The wall I'm hitting though, is that those aren't qualities that I typically associate with either Snyder or Goyer's work (despite his work on TDK Trilogy).

Affleck could be that X Factor that makes the whole production step it up a notch. We'll see.

I do see how the story seems to lend itself to something a bit more grounded and less over the top than MoS. But at the same time, it's a sequel and it's a huge event film...it's hard to imagine Snyder wanting to go "smaller" despite the criticisms. He's never been a critical darling anyway and seems like the guy who'd sooner double the amount of action as a middle finger to his critics than try to appease them.

That said, I still think the key to solving this problem would be to shoot some realllly impressive stuff practically (ala the TDKR prologue) and make it feel less like a video game. Less actual minutes of action, but more impressive 'moments', more wire work where you can actually see Cavill's face and get more invested. That would be a best case scenario for me. I'm hoping that Batman's presence in the movie pushes things a bit more in that direction.
Depends because even Whedon said he wanted to go smaller with Avengers 2. I can see Snyder wanting to scale things down plot wise. It pretty much has to.

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Old 10-14-2013, 05:37 PM   #224
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I used to think that the villain was the most important thing to a comic book movie, and then I saw MoS. That movie wasn't missing a villain, it was missing a hero.
Missing a hero? He saved BILLIONS of people despite killing a good amount of Metropolis' people in his fight with Zod. The point of the movie is Kal-El learns how to become the hero he's going to be in the future. I don't see why people wanted a remake of Superman: The Movie.

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Old 10-14-2013, 05:37 PM   #225
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Depends because even Whedon said he wanted to go smaller with Avengers 2. I can see Snyder wanting to scale things down plot wise. It pretty much has to.
"Even Whedon"?? Whedon has always been consistent that sequels should be smaller. His second seasons to both Buffy and Angel were a lot more personal.

Snyder takes the exact opposite view, and he's been explicit that the only option for the sequel, in his view, is to "go bigger". He said that they're going global, and has mentioned the issue of the rest of the world reacting to Superman being American. I think that whether or not you enjoy the sequel will come down to whether or not you share Goyer's understanding of the global political order.

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