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View Poll Results: the worst part of Spider-Man 3?
Sandman being Ben's killer 8 33.33%
the dancing scene 8 33.33%
Venom 2 8.33%
Gwen being pointless 2 8.33%
Sandman being the only villain who lives 0 0%
emo Peter 4 16.67%
Mary Jane singing 0 0%
Voters: 24. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 10-18-2013, 07:59 AM   #51
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Clearly the implication that Marko had reformed was lost on some of you.

But again,it all comes back to the deleted subplot about Marko's daughter being terminally ill,and nothing he could do would change that.
I go back and forth on whether I think it was a mistake to cut Penny's appearance in the final scenes. While it would more definitively tie up the Sandman story, I feel it was probably cut to make Marko's decision to stand down more of a moral choice than an objective one. We're obviously supposed to infer that he had a change of heart about the cycle of violence and vengeance he had gotten into, and that would be undermined by the revelation that he simply can't succeed. It would become a "well being bad won't pay off so why bother?" situation as opposed to "being bad is wrong so I should stop".

I do think the earlier deleted scene where he's intimidating a doctor should have stayed though. From what we've heard about it, it would have provided more information about his plans and situation.

Hard to say though, as SONY STILL HAVEN'T RELEASED those damn deleted scenes *waves fist*

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Old 10-18-2013, 11:53 AM   #52
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Default Re: The worst part of Spider-Man 3?

Is it true that a final swing was meant to be in SM3

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Old 10-18-2013, 06:11 PM   #53
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Default Re: The worst part of Spider-Man 3?

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Clearly the implication that Marko had reformed was lost on some of you.

But again,it all comes back to the deleted subplot about Marko's daughter being terminally ill,and nothing he could do would change that.
A literal elemental force of nature, free to do whatever. Take his word for his reformation. No thank you.

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Old 10-19-2013, 01:57 AM   #54
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Is it true that a final swing was meant to be in SM3
In the leaked trailer, there were some unfinished shots of Spider-Man swinging. If they did think about doing it, it probably only got that far in the animation.

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Old 10-19-2013, 08:28 AM   #55
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Default Re: The worst part of Spider-Man 3?

The novelisation for SM3 had a final swing, with MJ in his arms. That may have just been added in the book, but a lot of material in that book was shown to be filmed so it's a possibility.

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Old 10-19-2013, 10:13 AM   #56
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Default Re: The worst part of Spider-Man 3?

If the movie were more like the novelization, SM3 may have ended up being a good film.

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Old 10-19-2013, 08:41 PM   #57
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No doubt, UW. I loved the novelization.

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“Evil is nothing but a word, an objectification where no objectification is necessary. Cast aside this notion of some external agency as the source of inconceivable inhumanity – the sad truth is our possession of an innate proclivity towards indifference, towards deliberate denial of mercy, towards disengaging all that is moral within us. But if that is too dire, let’s call it evil. And paint it with fire and venom.”
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Old 10-20-2013, 07:23 AM   #58
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Default Re: The worst part of Spider-Man 3?

Wish there was something productive we could do to get that 3.1 release.

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Old 10-20-2013, 12:12 PM   #59
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Default Re: The worst part of Spider-Man 3?

Emo Peter. all they had to do was make him angry and threatening, not change his hair and make him dance like a ****.

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Old 10-20-2013, 01:54 PM   #60
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A literal elemental force of nature, free to do whatever. Take his word for his reformation. No thank you.
Basically. I don't know who can believe in this kind of "reformation." He might regret his actions, that's not being reformed. And even if he regrets it he belong to jail, that's why you became Spider-man in the first place, remember, Pete?

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Old 10-20-2013, 06:00 PM   #61
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Default Re: The worst part of Spider-Man 3?

Just for kicks.....what was Peter supposed to do?Web every grain of sand as it was blowing away?I'm just curious.What should Spidey have done at the end to stop Sandman and send him to jail?

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Old 10-20-2013, 06:05 PM   #62
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Default Re: The worst part of Spider-Man 3?

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Just for kicks.....what was Peter supposed to do?Web every grain of sand as it was blowing away?I'm just curious.What should Spidey have done at the end to stop Sandman and send him to jail?
Get Aunt May on him.

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Old 10-21-2013, 03:02 AM   #63
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Default Re: The worst part of Spider-Man 3?

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Get Aunt May on him.
Honestly, one of her soppy speeches would make Flint decide that life just isn't worth it any more

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Old 10-21-2013, 04:00 PM   #64
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Thanks for pretty much proving my point.

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Old 10-21-2013, 04:14 PM   #65
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Just for kicks.....what was Peter supposed to do?Web every grain of sand as it was blowing away?I'm just curious.What should Spidey have done at the end to stop Sandman and send him to jail?
How has Spider-man beaten Sandman in his 50 years of existence? Or Sandman is so unbeatable that Spider-man has always let him go?

If for the movie, and going with the slushy feeling of the ending, I'd have accepted much better if Sandman had taken fully awareness and responsibility of his actions by going to jail voluntarily over what we got.

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Old 10-21-2013, 04:46 PM   #66
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Spidey didn't have to "beat him" since he clearly tried to make peace with Peter over the wrong he'd done.So what he did or didn't do in the comics is irrelevant to the discussion.

If you had the power to blow away with the wind,chances are you:
A. Couldn't be contained in a jail.
and
B. Wouldn't voluntarily choose to do so,when there was absolutely nothing that could be done to forcibly make you go there for the rest of your (un-natural) life.

Going back to the original statement,Spidey isn't somehow "duty bound" to turn over every criminal he comes across to begin with.Look no further than Hobie Brown back in Stan's original run.

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Old 10-21-2013, 07:26 PM   #67
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Default Re: The worst part of Spider-Man 3?

The film version of Sandman's final scene was written on the fly while they were filming.....and you can really tell. Sticking with the version we see in the novel would most definitely make the ending seem less of a headscratcher.

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Old 10-21-2013, 07:32 PM   #68
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Spidey didn't have to "beat him" since he clearly tried to make peace with Peter over the wrong he'd done.So what he did or didn't do in the comics is irrelevant to the discussion.
Well, you stated you were curious about it. Don't blame people for giving you an answer then.

The difficulty of taking Sandman to jail has been addressed many times in comics for you to come and ask: What was Spider-man supposed to do?

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If you had the power to blow away with the wind,chances are you:
A. Couldn't be contained in a jail.
and
Same was thought about Magneto. Somehow they created a jail capable top contain him.

The one thing that was unacceptable was saying, okay so I don't think jail can contain him, so let the guy do whatever he wants.

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B. Wouldn't voluntarily choose to do so,when there was absolutely nothing that could be done to forcibly make you go there for the rest of your (un-natural) life.
If he were truly regretting his bad actions, he would.

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Going back to the original statement,Spidey isn't somehow "duty bound" to turn over every criminal he comes across to begin with.Look no further than Hobie Brown back in Stan's original run.
Yes, he is. All his career started precisely because he did not turn over a criminal that crossed his path and let him go.

Spider-man gave Hobie a second chance because he was just a misunderstood kid that was starting as a criminal, not a grown up man who had a whole criminal career.


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Old 10-22-2013, 08:10 AM   #69
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If for the movie, and going with the slushy feeling of the ending, I'd have accepted much better if Sandman had taken fully awareness and responsibility of his actions by going to jail voluntarily over what we got.
This I agree with whole-heartedly. I previously mentioned that while I love what the film was doing, the writing and dialogue often let down the themes in play.

With Sandman's incredibly blunt character arc, there is some pretty stupid leaps of logic. He keeps repeating that he's "not a bad person, just had bad luck", and by the end of the film he should have learned that while he's maybe not a bad person, he made bad choices. Marko may have been dealt a bad hand, but he still committed his crimes and the finale is undermined by his apparent lack of understanding of that.

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Old 10-22-2013, 03:01 PM   #70
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Well, you stated you were curious about it. Don't blame people for giving you an answer then.
Fair enough,but you didn't really give me an answer.Just that he was captured in the comics.Still given the film's premise,it is irrelevant.
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The one thing that was unacceptable was saying, okay so I don't think jail can contain him, so let the guy do whatever he wants..
That wasn't why he let him go
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If he were truly regretting his bad actions, he would.
.
Lets not kid ourselves,even if you regretted the worst crime imaginable,the chances of voluntarily choosing life in prison are slim to none.


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Spider-man gave Hobie a second chance because he was just a misunderstood kid that was starting as a criminal, not a grown up man who had a whole criminal career.
The premise for Marko was exactly the same as Hobie.He had some bad brakes,but he wasn't a bad person.You can dislike the approach to Marko's character,but he wasn't depicted as some career criminal stealling for the "wrong" reasons.

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Old 10-22-2013, 05:41 PM   #71
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This I agree with whole-heartedly. I previously mentioned that while I love what the film was doing, the writing and dialogue often let down the themes in play.

With Sandman's incredibly blunt character arc, there is some pretty stupid leaps of logic. He keeps repeating that he's "not a bad person, just had bad luck", and by the end of the film he should have learned that while he's maybe not a bad person, he made bad choices. Marko may have been dealt a bad hand, but he still committed his crimes and the finale is undermined by his apparent lack of understanding of that.
Exactly. Crime was committed, he belongs to jail.


*****************************************


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Fair enough,but you didn't really give me an answer.Just that he was captured in the comics.Still given the film's premise,it is irrelevant.
So, when I told you: "for the movie, and going with the slushy feeling of the ending, I'd have accepted much better if Sandman had taken fully awareness and responsibility of his actions by going to jail voluntarily over what we got," you just decided to ignore that.

Even so, you should be aware of Sandman's defeats:

Spidey has defeated Marko with a vacuum cleaner. Human Torch - the Marvel Comics character, not you - sis it by activated the sprinkler systems of a building. Yes, water can get him. Spider-Man also fought him inside an airtight metal box, in which he ran out of air. Temperature also works, if high enough temperature turns Sandman into glass, which makes him slower to transform. Also, Sandman possesses a key particle of sand that contains his conscious mind, which he can't lose.

So many choices to just come and say "What was Spider-man supposed to do?"

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That wasn't why he let him go
It was as bad: Peter forgave Marko for personal reasons and forgot that he was a criminal and other people were harmed by him as well.

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Lets not kid ourselves,even if you regretted the worst crime imaginable,the chances of voluntarily choosing life in prison are slim to none.
Let's not kid ourselves, even if you regretted the worst crime imaginable, the chances someone who believes in justice would voluntarily let you go are slim to none.

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The premise for Marko was exactly the same as Hobie.He had some bad brakes,but he wasn't a bad person.You can dislike the approach to Marko's character,but he wasn't depicted as some career criminal stealling for the "wrong" reasons.
No, Marko is not some kid, and was not starting a criminal career. Being a good guy doesn't cut it when it's about to answer for your actions. Specially before someone who has freely dedicated his life to bring justice.

And yes, someone who commits one crime after the next, that escapes jail - meaning that he was already found guilty of previous crimes - is precisely to be depicted as some career criminal.

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Old 10-22-2013, 10:23 PM   #72
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So, when I told you: "for the movie, and going with the slushy feeling of the ending, I'd have accepted much better if Sandman had taken fully awareness and responsibility of his actions by going to jail voluntarily over what we got," you just decided to ignore that.
Didn't ignore it.I replied that it would be fairly unreasonable to expect anyone,no matter how altruistic, to voluntarily submit to life in prison-probably in some kind of solitary confinement.

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Even so, you should be aware of Sandman's defeats:

Spidey has defeated Marko with a vacuum cleaner. Human Torch - the Marvel Comics character, not you - sis it by activated the sprinkler systems of a building. Yes, water can get him. Spider-Man also fought him inside an airtight metal box, in which he ran out of air. Temperature also works, if high enough temperature turns Sandman into glass, which makes him slower to transform. Also, Sandman possesses a key particle of sand that contains his conscious mind, which he can't lose.

So many choices to just come and say "What was Spider-man supposed to do?"
That's all well and good,but my point is given the context of the movie what should Peter have done?
Peter: I forgive you.
Sandman *looks sad,blows away*
Peter: Wait a minute Marko!You still need to go to jail!What about that liquor store you knocked over in 03!*shoots webs into the sandstorm* Rats!
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It was as bad: Peter forgave Marko for personal reasons and forgot that he was a criminal and other people were harmed by him as well.
Again,the implication was "he did it all for his daughter".There wasn't this long broken stream of victims that people have imagined.He may have given a few cops a concussion and stole some money from the bank in desperation,but he was hardly public enemy #1,a danger to everyone he came in contact with.



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No, Marko is not some kid, and was not starting a criminal career. Being a good guy doesn't cut it when it's about to answer for your actions. Specially before someone who has freely dedicated his life to bring justice.

And yes, someone who commits one crime after the next, that escapes jail - meaning that he was already found guilty of previous crimes - is precisely to be depicted as some career criminal.
Again,Marko was a criminal out of desperation,not personal gain.

Again,you may consider it a maudlin concept (and yeah,it is) but he "did it all for his daughter".He wasn't some gangbanger with grandiose plans.The movie spells this all out in painfully plain terms.

And presumably,he went to jail for armed robbery the night of Ben's death,so to fantasize a lengthy criminal career for him is more than the movie tells us.

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Old 10-23-2013, 02:19 AM   #73
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Didn't ignore it.I replied that it would be fairly unreasonable to expect anyone,no matter how altruistic, to voluntarily submit to life in prison-probably in some kind of solitary confinement.
You mean you know and admit I had given you an answer, but decided to tell me I hadn't because, I infere from your words, it wasn't the answer you wanted to hear.

Now, if you think it's fairly unreasonable to expect anyone, no matter how altruistic, to voluntarily submit to life in prison-probably in some kind of solitary confinement, then you admit you don't believe that story of "reformed Sandman" you conjured up. A reformed person takes responsibility for his action, they don't just escape.

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That's all well and good,but my point is given the context of the movie what should Peter have done?
Peter: I forgive you.
Sandman *looks sad,blows away*
Peter: Wait a minute Marko!You still need to go to jail!What about that liquor store you knocked over in 03!*shoots webs into the sandstorm* Rats!
Wouldn't work. After all he did in the movie, the liquor store thing is nothing.

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Again,the implication was "he did it all for his daughter".There wasn't this long broken stream of victims that people have imagined.He may have given a few cops a concussion and stole some money from the bank in desperation,but he was hardly public enemy #1,a danger to everyone he came in contact with.
Yes, there was. For starters, prison break, then the policemen he threw to the air, one of them landing over a car, the guards of the security van that would have died if not for Spider-man, helping another criminal to kidnap a girl and hold her several stories over the floor, trying to kill Spider-man and in general endangerment of dozens of people without any kind of control or remorse. And that's on top of my head, as I haven't checked the movie for details.

Public enemy number one doesn't fully describe this guy.

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Again,Marko was a criminal out of desperation,not personal gain.
Irrelevant, he endangered seriously so many people no tear-jerking excuse would cut it.

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Again,you may consider it a maudlin concept (and yeah,it is) but he "did it all for his daughter".He wasn't some gangbanger with grandiose plans.The movie spells this all out in painfully plain terms.
Again, you might find it irrelevant, but he meant serious danger to the whole city.

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And presumably,he went to jail for armed robbery the night of Ben's death,so to fantasize a lengthy criminal career for him is more than the movie tells us.
Being in jail for killing an old man like Uncle Ben is a career compared to what Hobie had done.

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Old 10-23-2013, 10:07 AM   #74
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Default Re: The worst part of Spider-Man 3?

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Just for kicks.....what was Peter supposed to do?Web every grain of sand as it was blowing away?I'm just curious.What should Spidey have done at the end to stop Sandman and send him to jail?
Use a cosmic/atomic/whatever vacuum cleaner

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Old 10-23-2013, 07:44 PM   #75
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I love SM3 but it won't keep me from admitting that the final confrontation between Peter and Marko is lacking.

Even if it had to play out like it did, a simple "no prison can hold me, but I'm done with crime" from Marko would have gone a long way to sell that Peter would let him go.

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