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Old 10-15-2013, 06:23 AM   #1
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Default mind vs muscle

Besides, incredible superpowers, superman has high intelligence and wide perspective too.
However, in all his movies, tv shows and animation, they only manage to capture his superpowers partly. He is mostly like a normal man, intelligence wise. And always been fooled by his foes, lex luthor mostly.

In MOS too, they did excellent job showing his muscle... however his mind part is again being ignored.

N in this BVS, I believe superman is playing the muscle part, the mind will be by batman, again.

All I hope is superman will have at least an excellent, creative n exciting saving action. [ no more straight forward catching falling stuffs action]

And IM3 is a good movie mainly because of that breathtaking plane saving action. [ if without it, it was quite boring to me].

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Old 10-15-2013, 06:39 AM   #2
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I think Lois was the mind MOS. She did all the snooping around and the final plan of the military was hers. It empowered her but weakened Supes as he became an ordinary grunt who just carried out Lois's plan.

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Old 10-15-2013, 06:46 AM   #3
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Default Re: mind vs muscle

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I think Lois was the mind MOS. She did all the snooping around and the final plan of the military was hers. It empowered her but weakened Supes as he became an ordinary grunt who just carried out Lois's plan.
It was really Jor-El's plan ...

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Old 10-15-2013, 06:51 AM   #4
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Default Re: mind vs muscle

Yeah technically.

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Old 10-15-2013, 06:56 AM   #5
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Default Re: mind vs muscle

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Yeah technically.
It also sucks because it's a Deus Ex Machina:
"You can't beat up these Kryptonian because we've defined them to be of equal strength to the hero... so let's ram your baby carriage into their spaceship to create a black hole that is precisely powerful to suck these super beings in, but also precisely powerless enough to not destroy the Earth".
I guess the ability to conjure up a Deus Ex Machina makes Jor-El God, which ties into the Jesus allegory, which demonstrates that the writing was very good.

Anyhow, though I do want Superman to be shown to have brains, I don't expect it because this will be a Batman/Superman movie. Batman will be the brains, and Superman will be the brawn. It's very predictable that it will probably be boring.

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Old 10-15-2013, 06:58 AM   #6
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Default Re: mind vs muscle

Batman and Superman have differing views - sure. And they do go about things differently. But these can definitely be exaggerated. Superman isn't entirely this dumb, reactive and unsubtle bowling ball.

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Old 10-15-2013, 07:53 AM   #7
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Default Re: mind vs muscle

No one is saying he is. But he was in Man of Steel.

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Old 10-15-2013, 08:11 AM   #8
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No one is saying he is. But he was in Man of Steel.
In all his movies. No just MOS. That the disasters n threats can be resolved by pure muscle.

How about the comics?

Can we have examples of superman showing his brain?

And do we have some tastefully saving action in the comics that you would like to be put into the movie?

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Old 10-15-2013, 08:32 AM   #9
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Default Re: mind vs muscle

Yeah, I would really like to see the investigative side of Clark in MOS2 more, you know the side that goes out and looks for stories and solves cases. That side was ignored in Smallville IMO, so it would be nice to see it in MOS2.

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Old 10-15-2013, 08:41 AM   #10
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Default Re: mind vs muscle

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It also sucks because it's a Deus Ex Machina:
"You can't beat up these Kryptonian because we've defined them to be of equal strength to the hero... so let's ram your baby carriage into their spaceship to create a black hole that is precisely powerful to suck these super beings in, but also precisely powerless enough to not destroy the Earth".
I guess the ability to conjure up a Deus Ex Machina makes Jor-El God, which ties into the Jesus allegory, which demonstrates that the writing was very good.

Anyhow, though I do want Superman to be shown to have brains, I don't expect it because this will be a Batman/Superman movie. Batman will be the brains, and Superman will be the brawn. It's very predictable that it will probably be boring.
It is somewhat a deus ex machina but it doesn't bother me because there were still a number of obstacles in order to complete the task so at least they earned the solution.

Now, having just watched IM3, the way all of those armors just show up -- that's deus ex machina.

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Old 10-15-2013, 08:45 AM   #11
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Default Re: mind vs muscle

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Originally Posted by sf2 View Post
Besides, incredible superpowers, superman has high intelligence and wide perspective too.
However, in all his movies, tv shows and animation, they only manage to capture his superpowers partly. He is mostly like a normal man, intelligence wise. And always been fooled by his foes, lex luthor mostly.

In MOS too, they did excellent job showing his muscle... however his mind part is again being ignored.

N in this BVS, I believe superman is playing the muscle part, the mind will be by batman, again.

All I hope is superman will have at least an excellent, creative n exciting saving action. [ no more straight forward catching falling stuffs action]

And IM3 is a good movie mainly because of that breathtaking plane saving action. [ if without it, it was quite boring to me].
I think the inclusion of Batman will most definitely dumb down Superman as it tends to all characters (at least in the comics). If Batman has an extremely high level of human intelligence and no real world writer has that, then the solution to make Batman seem smart is to make everyone else dumber. It makes sense as to why they have to do that but sometimes I can feel it going a little too far.

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Old 10-15-2013, 08:57 AM   #12
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Default Re: mind vs muscle

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I think the inclusion of Batman will most definitely dumb down Superman as it tends to all characters (at least in the comics). If Batman has an extremely high level of human intelligence and no real world writer has that, then the solution to make Batman seem smart is to make everyone else dumber. It makes sense as to why they have to do that but sometimes I can feel it going a little too far.
Even in the game: injustice. Batman is the smartest and most intelligent. The rest of the superheroes are like they don't even have a brain.

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Old 10-15-2013, 09:08 AM   #13
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Default Re: mind vs muscle

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It is somewhat a deus ex machina but it doesn't bother me because there were still a number of obstacles in order to complete the task so at least they earned the solution.

Now, having just watched IM3, the way all of those armors just show up -- that's deus ex machina.
Iron Man 3 does not qualify. Tony himself summons the suits (if I remember correctly), so its not a deux ex machina. If Tony were in despair of what to do and thus the audience is in despair that what will happen and suddenly the suits are brought there by Jarvis of his own will then that would be one.

But Tony calling them isn't.

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Old 10-15-2013, 09:13 AM   #14
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Iron Man 3 does not qualify. Tony himself summons the suits (if I remember correctly), so its not a deux ex machina. If Tony were in despair of what to do and thus the audience is in despair that what will happen and suddenly the suits are brought there by Jarvis of his own will then that would be one.

But Tony calling them isn't.
Disagree. I had little clue that any of those suits existed other than the casual mention that he's been building a lot and the newest suit is #42. Also, I was under the impression that his summoning powers only worked for 42 and barely at that. All of a sudden he has perfect command over an entire army? It matters little that he called them as they never properly set up so their payoff rings hollow. They literally came out of nowhere. And why didn't they show up when he was stranded in TN?

Honestly, I found the movie rather boring so maybe I missed a major piece of info but then so did other people I know.

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Old 10-15-2013, 09:15 AM   #15
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Default Re: mind vs muscle

You have to give Batman something otherwise he's useless, especially if WB is building towards a JL movie. So you give him ''the brains''. No at the expense of making other heroes appear too dumb of course, but I have no quarrel with Batman being ''the smartest'' because otherwise what point is there for him to even be present in something like JL?? Make coffee for Aquaman??

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Old 10-15-2013, 09:20 AM   #16
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Disagree. I had little clue that any of those suits existed other than the casual mention that he's been building a lot and the newest suit is #42. Also, I was under the impression that his summoning powers only worked for 42 and barely at that. All of a sudden he has perfect command over an entire army? It matters little that he called them as they never properly set up so their payoff rings hollow. They literally came out of nowhere. And why didn't they show up when he was stranded in TN?

Honestly, I found the movie rather boring so maybe I missed a major piece of info but then so did other people I know.
Oh I am not defending the movie if you think that.
I think it is ********.

Just making a technical point. I think if a character is doing something himself to get out of the problem, that ain't a deux ex machina.

The Matrix is different, when the character at the appropriate moment realizes his true powers.

But Tony did not realize anything, he designed the thing! So it does not qualify.

It seemed like because of the way it was portrayed. So it was maybe a DEM for the audience but not for the characters in the story.

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Old 10-15-2013, 09:24 AM   #17
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Oh I am not defending the movie if you think that.
I think it is ********.
At least we agree on that

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Just making a technical point. I think if a character is doing something himself to get out of the problem, that ain't a deux ex machina.

The Matrix is different, when the character at the appropriate moment realizes his true powers.

But Tony did not realize anything, he designed the thing! So it does not qualify.

It seemed like because of the way it was portrayed. So it was maybe a DEM for the audience but not for the characters in the story.
I see your point but really an audience's perception is really all that matters when it comes the effectiveness and strength of a film.

You can just google Iron Man 3 deus ex machina and see quite few reviews that find it to fall under that trope.

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Old 10-15-2013, 09:30 AM   #18
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All I hope is superman will have at least an excellent, creative n exciting saving action. [ no more straight forward catching falling stuffs action]
I crave for that. As much as it was nice seeing Superman finally fight in MOS, I have to admit the action and the visuals of it weren't as exciting as I thought they would be. A bit too impersonal, with the zoom in's, kryptonians bouncing around, shaky cam and I didn't really feel the weight of it all. I'd like to see a more cinematic Superman action, that involves as you say, Superman using his brains in a complex saving scenario (not just flying through windows catching things like in SR). And when he does pick up heavy objects I'd like to feel the weight of it all. See Superman's hands rippling through steel when he grabs it and seeing him manipulate a large and heavy object up close, with no shaky cam. Perhaps I expect too much, perhaps it's too ''expensive'' or difficult, I don't know. But MOS often felt video-gamish instead of cinematic.

So yes please, Superman using his brains in difficult scenarios. Toyman could set something up...

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Old 10-15-2013, 10:15 AM   #19
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Default Re: mind vs muscle

Thank you, in tired of Superman being shown like he's all muscle and no brains. The dude has his own lab in the Fortress working on things Batman wouldn't even be able to comprehend, it's so ****ed up that they would purposely damage one character just to make another outshine him which they have exactly done with the Superman/Batman relationship

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Old 10-15-2013, 10:53 AM   #20
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Disagree. I had little clue that any of those suits existed other than the casual mention that he's been building a lot and the newest suit is #42. Also, I was under the impression that his summoning powers only worked for 42 and barely at that. All of a sudden he has perfect command over an entire army? It matters little that he called them as they never properly set up so their payoff rings hollow. They literally came out of nowhere. And why didn't they show up when he was stranded in TN?

Honestly, I found the movie rather boring so maybe I missed a major piece of info but then so did other people I know.
They didn't come out of nowhere. They mentioned early in the film that since the Battle of New York, Tony has been doing nothing but working day-and-night on armors and nothing else, which is how he got to Mark 42 so fast. His interactions with Loki and the aliens in TA made him feel really vulnerable without his suit which is why he designed all the other ones to be able to come to him. It's also why they all break so easily - he rushed all of them due to his fears instead of taking his time on them like the previous armors.

As for why they didn't show up in Tennessee, Tony needed JARVIS to activate them and JARVIS was temporarily down at the time. He also had to go off radar in the first place to be able to track the Mandarin down plus didn't even need them since the armors were being saved specifically for another army (which is what he was up against in the final battle).

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Old 10-15-2013, 11:02 AM   #21
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They didn't come out of nowhere. They mentioned early in the film that since the Battle of New York, Tony has been doing nothing but working day-and-night on armors and nothing else, which is how he got to Mark 42 so fast. His interactions with Loki and the aliens in TA made him feel really vulnerable without his suit which is why he designed all the other ones to be able to come to him. It's also why they all break so easily - he rushed all of them due to his fears instead of taking his time on them like the previous armors.

As for why they didn't show up in Tennessee, Tony needed JARVIS to activate them and JARVIS was temporarily down at the time. He also had to go off radar in the first place to be able to track the Mandarin down plus didn't even need them since the armors were being saved specifically for another army (which is what he was up against in the final battle).
That was a very casual mention as I said, not nearly enough to be a sufficient set up for me. There was also no information as to the fact that he had an entire army nor that they were able to be summoned.

The lack of JARVIS is a good point. But how do you know they were being saved specifically for another army if you didn't know they existed until the end? It seems to be based on hindsight, which further proves a lack of foreshadowing/set-up.

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Old 10-15-2013, 11:10 AM   #22
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Even in the game: injustice. Batman is the smartest and most intelligent. The rest of the superheroes are like they don't even have a brain.
In all honesty though, that is a problem most DC characters have in general. They're often portrayed as just having average level intellect, even in stories where Batman isn't present and in continuities where Batman isn't even established to exist. Not that they don't have their fair share of moments where their brains far outshines their brawn, but they're not consistently written as intelligent like Batman is.

I think the lack of more highly-intelligent characters is what hurts DC and why Marvel's characters seem to connect better with general audiences (there's a saying that for every overpowered DC character there is a genius in the Marvel universe). In today's modern society, strength and value is not measured by how much godlike power you have but by what your intellect brings to the table. People don't have as much interest in a guy with unlimited power if that guy is not portrayed as too smart in the first place. So they turn to characters like Batman, Spider-Man, and Iron Man instead - characters whose intelligence is consistently portrayed as their greatest weapon.

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Old 10-15-2013, 11:24 AM   #23
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That was a very casual mention as I said, not nearly enough to be a sufficient set up for me. There was also no information as to the fact that he had an entire army nor that they were able to be summoned.
I didn't get that. It seemed like the predictable thing for Tony to do based on his fears and on all the references to him doing nothing but building suits since Avengers and that he was already at 42. Plus, we already knew going into the film that there would be many armors. I automatically assumed Pepper was talking about the armors when she was concerned over Tony in the beginning. That's just me though.

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The lack of JARVIS is a good point. But how do you know they were being saved specifically for another army if you didn't know they existed until the end? It seems to be based on hindsight, which further proves a lack of foreshadowing/set-up.
Not necessarily saved in case for an Avengers battle, but more like "I have all these armors protecting me if any large threat ever tries to lay a finger on me again" (the Mandarin attack on his house doesn't count since it caught him off guard). He was under the fear that he was just a normal useless man without his armor and that the more armors and powers he has, the more he could survive in a world with gods and aliens. Then later when he takes down those Extremis soldiers and infiltrates the Mandarin's HQ entirely on his wits, he overcomes that fear.

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Old 10-15-2013, 11:29 AM   #24
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I crave for that. As much as it was nice seeing Superman finally fight in MOS, I have to admit the action and the visuals of it weren't as exciting as I thought they would be. A bit too impersonal, with the zoom in's, kryptonians bouncing around, shaky cam and I didn't really feel the weight of it all. I'd like to see a more cinematic Superman action, that involves as you say, Superman using his brains in a complex saving scenario (not just flying through windows catching things like in SR). And when he does pick up heavy objects I'd like to feel the weight of it all. See Superman's hands rippling through steel when he grabs it and seeing him manipulate a large and heavy object up close, with no shaky cam. Perhaps I expect too much, perhaps it's too ''expensive'' or difficult, I don't know. But MOS often felt video-gamish instead of cinematic.

So yes please, Superman using his brains in difficult scenarios. Toyman could set something up...
Precisely. Maybe we were expecting too much . I think they ran away from the very thing that would really make a superman movie interesting in this day and age other than mainly focusing on larger themes, symbolism and being all philosophical (worked for batman but this is an alien/God). Simple physical/scientific grounding of an all powerful alien from birth would have been enough for 1/2 or 3/4 of an origin movie. Yes they said he absorbed the sun's radiation, krypton's environment is harsher and earth's atmosphere is more nourishing but that's it. With a character like superman who we will have to believe is so powerful in relation to the normal human in a world that is trying to be realistic/grounded, his very presence and immediate reaction with everything human and what they come in contact with needed to be fully explored. Something as simple as him walking or touching another human being should have been something that he had to learn in order to not risk hurting someone or causing damage. Yes they say that he was going through changes from birth but the problem is he was already a kryptonian baby. The thing is if you want him to believably be able to throw a train (in this day and age) you can't let him adopt to earth and become more human because the argument for his super powered status becomes weak. Making him struggle to breathe and adopt (to a less harsher more nourishing atmosphere with a sun that fills his cells radically) while asking us to believe that he can throw a train to me seems wrong. If the environment and solar system he is in is going to give him that kind of strength (Godly) then he shouldn't even have to breathe because his super body has everything it will ever need and more in the specific environment. For him to be super his very being needed to have been just that and the humanizing should have come from him learning power control for human interactions, morals etc. This is just a basic premise as to what could have been explored but I believe it could have made everything more impressive and interesting but I guess they preferred to go with how people would react if they.....but from what I saw that point wasn't even strongly realized.


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Old 10-15-2013, 11:37 AM   #25
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I didn't get that. It seemed like the predictable thing for Tony to do based on his fears and on all the references to him doing nothing but building suits since Avengers and that he was already at 42. Plus, we already knew going into the film that there would be many armors. I automatically assumed Pepper was talking about the armors when she was concerned over Tony in the beginning. That's just me though.
I actually forgot the all the armors from the trailers. Even so, trailers aren't a viable means of setting up a plot point. It needs to be set up in the film, and this was weakly set up for me.

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Not necessarily saved in case for an Avengers battle, but more like "I have all these armors protecting me if any large threat ever tries to lay a finger on me again" (the Mandarin attack on his house doesn't count since it caught him off guard). He was under the fear that he was just a normal useless man without his armor and that the more armors and powers he has, the more he could survive in a world with gods and aliens. Then later when he takes down those Extremis soldiers and infiltrates the Mandarin's HQ entirely on his wits, he overcomes that fear.
Another thing that was poorly set-up and ultimately made the film ring emotionally flat for me. It was a real shame because I love a lot of Shane Black's work.

Regardless, the point in bring up the armors was in comparison to the extent in which the Phantom drive could be considered a deus ex machina (to bring it all back to MOS and this mind vs muscle discussion).

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