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Old 10-15-2013, 12:04 PM   #26
Shikamaru
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Default Re: mind vs muscle

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Originally Posted by Krumm View Post
I actually forgot the all the armors from the trailers. Even so, trailers aren't a viable means of setting up a plot point. It needs to be set up in the film, and this was weakly set up for me.
Like I said, I felt it was set up enough in the film. We'll just have to agree to disagree on that.

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Another thing that was poorly set-up and ultimately made the film ring emotionally flat for me. It was a real shame because I love a lot of Shane Black's work.

Regardless, the point in bring up the armors was in comparison to the extent in which the Phantom drive could be considered a deus ex machina (to bring it all back to MOS and this mind vs muscle discussion).
I don't think either of them were deus ex machinas. I don't think the Phantom Drive was a brilliant plot device but I didn't find it to be a deus ex machina either. If anything, it seemed like the most predictable thing ever to me even prior to any of the trailers we got. How do you get rid of General Zod and his army without killing them? Throwing them in the Phantom Zone somehow.

However, I don't think it's fair to say everything Tony did in IM3 was on par with the Phantom Drive. Tony himself created every weapon and armor he used against Killian. He saved the day essentially by being a genius throughout the whole film, even with incomplete armors. On the other hand, the Phantom Drive was just Superman/Lois/US army following the instructions of a hologram Jor-El on what to do. They didn't come up with the idea themselves.

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Old 10-15-2013, 12:13 PM   #27
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Default Re: mind vs muscle

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Like I said, I felt it was set up enough in the film. We'll just have to agree to disagree on that.



I don't think either of them were deus ex machinas. I don't think the Phantom Drive was a brilliant plot device but I didn't find it to be a deus ex machina either. If anything, it seemed like the most predictable thing ever to me even prior to any of the trailers we got. How do you get rid of General Zod and his army without killing them? Throwing them in the Phantom Zone somehow.

However, I don't think it's fair to say everything Tony did in IM3 was on par with the Phantom Drive. Tony himself created every weapon and armor he used against Killian. He saved the day essentially by being a genius throughout the whole film, even with incomplete armors. On the other hand, the Phantom Drive was just Superman/Lois/US army following the instructions of a hologram Jor-El on what to do. They didn't come up with the idea themselves.
Superman was able to turn back time in S:TM. Would you consider that to be a deus ex machina? For me it is because it comes out of nowhere. It does not matter that it was his direct action. (Now, this is regardless of whether or not it's a power he possess in the comics because I'm referring to the film itself.)

Tony's involvement in the existence of the armors isn't as important as the surprising existence of said armors. We can definitely agree to disagree on whether we found the armors to be properly set up, but Tony's part in their rescue does not, on it's own, prevent it from being a deus ex machina.

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Old 10-15-2013, 09:43 PM   #28
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Default Re: mind vs muscle

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They didn't come out of nowhere. They mentioned early in the film that since the Battle of New York, Tony has been doing nothing but working day-and-night on armors and nothing else, which is how he got to Mark 42 so fast. His interactions with Loki and the aliens in TA made him feel really vulnerable without his suit which is why he designed all the other ones to be able to come to him. It's also why they all break so easily - he rushed all of them due to his fears instead of taking his time on them like the previous armors.

As for why they didn't show up in Tennessee, Tony needed JARVIS to activate them and JARVIS was temporarily down at the time. He also had to go off radar in the first place to be able to track the Mandarin down plus didn't even need them since the armors were being saved specifically for another army (which is what he was up against in the final battle).
He created an army of super robots, But his home is so defenseless??? Some more he challenged the terrorists openly to attack his home.

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Old 10-15-2013, 09:51 PM   #29
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Thank you, in tired of Superman being shown like he's all muscle and no brains. The dude has his own lab in the Fortress working on things Batman wouldn't even be able to comprehend, it's so ****ed up that they would purposely damage one character just to make another outshine him which they have exactly done with the Superman/Batman relationship
99% sure that in this BVS, batman gonna outshine and outsmart superman. I just hope that it is because superman refuses to see thing like batman see. And it isn't about intelligence.

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Old 10-15-2013, 09:55 PM   #30
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In all honesty though, that is a problem most DC characters have in general. They're often portrayed as just having average level intellect, even in stories where Batman isn't present and in continuities where Batman isn't even established to exist. Not that they don't have their fair share of moments where their brains far outshines their brawn, but they're not consistently written as intelligent like Batman is.

I think the lack of more highly-intelligent characters is what hurts DC and why Marvel's characters seem to connect better with general audiences (there's a saying that for every overpowered DC character there is a genius in the Marvel universe). In today's modern society, strength and value is not measured by how much godlike power you have but by what your intellect brings to the table. People don't have as much interest in a guy with unlimited power if that guy is not portrayed as too smart in the first place. So they turn to characters like Batman, Spider-Man, and Iron Man instead - characters whose intelligence is consistently portrayed as their greatest weapon.
Bingo!!!! Very true! That's why a lot of people refuse to watch MOS.
Hopefully the production team can see this post!

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Old 10-15-2013, 10:43 PM   #31
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Default Re: mind vs muscle

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He created an army of super robots, But his home is so defenseless??? Some more he challenged the terrorists openly to attack his home.
Superman's no fool, he is actually quite smart. But Batman is one of the most brilliant men on the planet. Plus, it appears that this Batman will be older and more experience whereas Superman will still be younger and learning. Superman literally has almost EVERY advantage. Batman's intelligence and methodically mind is his ONE ace in the whole. I see no problem with Batman being the smarter of the two as long as Superman is portrayed as being an idiot.

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Old 10-16-2013, 07:23 AM   #32
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Default Re: mind vs muscle

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It is somewhat a deus ex machina but it doesn't bother me because there were still a number of obstacles in order to complete the task so at least they earned the solution.

Now, having just watched IM3, the way all of those armors just show up -- that's deus ex machina.
I didn't watch Iron Man 3 due to the fact that I found Iron Man 2 to be awful, and I find the Tony Stark character offensive and objectionable. I may watch it someday, perhaps I should since it broke 1.1 billion dollars, as such it's a big deal even if it's garbage.

With that said, opening a black hole over Metropolis was still a cheap ending. Goyer set up the challenge of having Superman fight people of his own strength, and he didn't resolve it. There's also the plot hole of a black hole over Metropolis not destroying the Earth, and the plot hole of nobody worrying that it would destroy the Earth. The only part that was resolved in an organic manner was Zod committing suicide -- that was very creative and coherent.

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Old 10-16-2013, 07:26 AM   #33
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Default Re: mind vs muscle

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Superman's no fool, he is actually quite smart. But Batman is one of the most brilliant men on the planet. Plus, it appears that this Batman will be older and more experience whereas Superman will still be younger and learning. Superman literally has almost EVERY advantage. Batman's intelligence and methodically mind is his ONE ace in the whole. I see no problem with Batman being the smarter of the two as long as Superman is portrayed as being an idiot.
In the real world there are many different components to intelligence: Wisdom, experience, ability to rotate objects, ability to deal with abstract mathematical and logical concepts, computations, social intelligence, short-term memory, long-term memory, reaction time, etc etc etc and even this description I'm giving is incredibly superficial, and would give any neuroscientist a heart attack.

With good writing, both Superman and Batman can be very intelligent and still mentally distinct without undermining one or the other.

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Old 10-16-2013, 07:30 AM   #34
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Default Re: mind vs muscle

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I didn't watch Iron Man 3 due to the fact that I found Iron Man 2 to be awful, and I find the Tony Stark character offensive and objectionable. I may watch it someday, perhaps I should since it broke 1.1 billion dollars, as such it's a big deal even if it's garbage.
I'd still pass.

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With that said, opening a black hole over Metropolis was still a cheap ending. Goyer set up the challenge of having Superman fight people of his own strength, and he didn't resolve it. There's also the plot hole of a black hole over Metropolis not destroying the Earth, and the plot hole of nobody worrying that it would destroy the Earth. The only part that was resolved in an organic manner was Zod committing suicide -- that was very creative and coherent.
Sending Kryptonians back to the Phantom Zod is the classic (and possibly the only) resolution to stories involving Superman vs. Kryptonians. I've accepted it for years so there is no reason I shouldn't now. It may be different for you and that's fine. The only thing that really matters to me is that there is a struggle to accomplish the feat and tough decisions by the characters involved -- MOS had both so I'm good.

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Old 10-16-2013, 07:34 AM   #35
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Default Re: mind vs muscle

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In the real world there are many different components to intelligence: Wisdom, experience, ability to rotate objects, ability to deal with abstract mathematical and logical concepts, computations, social intelligence, short-term memory, long-term memory, reaction time, etc etc etc and even this description I'm giving is incredibly superficial, and would give any neuroscientist a heart attack.

With good writing, both Superman and Batman can be very intelligent and still mentally distinct without undermining one or the other.
That's a very interesting point. There can definitely be instances where Superman can use a different kind of intelligence than Batman and I hope we can see some in the upcoming film. My only concern is that I'm not sure any real intelligence has been set up for Superman in MOS (other than young Clark reading Plato, which is not very obvious).

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Old 10-16-2013, 07:39 AM   #36
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Default Re: mind vs muscle

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I'd still pass.



Sending Kryptonians back to the Phantom Zod is the classic (and possibly the only) resolution to stories involving Superman vs. Kryptonians. I've accepted it for years so there is no reason I shouldn't now. It may be different for you and that's fine. The only thing that really matters to me is that there is a struggle to accomplish the feat and tough decisions by the characters involved -- MOS had both so I'm good.
I'm not saying that it was better in either Superman II (with the power stripping machine which is also a DEM) or in Smallville season 9. It should be irrelevant if prior Superman interpretations have not succeeded.

I think that the animated feature of All-Star Superman had a good resolution to super-lex... once he had all of Superman's powers, he understood Superman, and then switched sides. That's the most satisfactory resolution I've seen. Also: Superman vs Doomsday in the comics, but you can't do that in an origin movie.

Actually, if I'm remembering it right, Smallville season 9 actually had Clark sway the Kryptonians to go build New Krypton instead. That has a good satisfying resolution to it. A lot of reviewers pointed out that there was absolutely no need for the Kryptonians in MoS to terraform (Kryptonform !) Earth. There are tons of planets out there, about a trillion rocky planets in the Galaxy.

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Old 10-16-2013, 08:22 AM   #37
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Default Re: mind vs muscle

With Batman as the older, more experienced superhero, there's every opportunity to showcase both characters' intelligence. Superman's sheer alien processing power and Batman's cultivated intelligence, built from experience and trial and error.

Demonstrate Batman's long game thinking, his stratagems, especially in battles. Show Superman's resourcefulness in using his powers.

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Old 10-16-2013, 08:38 AM   #38
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I'm not saying that it was better in either Superman II (with the power stripping machine which is also a DEM) or in Smallville season 9. It should be irrelevant if prior Superman interpretations have not succeeded.

I think that the animated feature of All-Star Superman had a good resolution to super-lex... once he had all of Superman's powers, he understood Superman, and then switched sides. That's the most satisfactory resolution I've seen. Also: Superman vs Doomsday in the comics, but you can't do that in an origin movie.

Actually, if I'm remembering it right, Smallville season 9 actually had Clark sway the Kryptonians to go build New Krypton instead. That has a good satisfying resolution to it. A lot of reviewers pointed out that there was absolutely no need for the Kryptonians in MoS to terraform (Kryptonform !) Earth. There are tons of planets out there, about a trillion rocky planets in the Galaxy.
Smallville season 9 was great for me because of the decision that Clark made. DEM's don't bother me if they are given importance either by obstacles or by decision making. If they just show up, solve the problem, and no one breaks a sweat, then I have an issue. And they also have to be set up properly, another key.

As for the terraforming, I took it as since Earth was a great atmospheric match that makes Kryptonian survival suitable (and possibly the best match seeing as they sent Clark there), why not terraform it? It would take less work than to find any old desolate place.


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Old 10-16-2013, 09:16 AM   #39
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I think you guys are confusing what a Deus Ex Machina actually is. it's not someone else coming up with the plan. Hell Luke Skywalker didn't come up with the plan at the end of A New Hope.
A Deus Ex Machina is when something unexpected comes out of left field. An example would be if Batman showed up at the climax and used the Phantom Zone projector to zap all the bad guys away.

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Old 10-16-2013, 09:28 AM   #40
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I think you guys are confusing what a Deus Ex Machina actually is. it's not someone else coming up with the plan. Hell Luke Skywalker didn't come up with the plan at the end of A New Hope.
A Deus Ex Machina is when something unexpected comes out of left field. An example would be if Batman showed up at the climax and used the Phantom Zone projector to zap all the bad guys away.
That's definitely an extreme case. Like anything there are varying degrees.

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Old 10-16-2013, 09:33 AM   #41
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That's definitely an extreme case. Like anything there are varying degrees.

Deus Ex Machina is a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly resolved by the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability, or object.

This is the actual definition. Nothing of which describes the ending in Man of Steel.

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Old 10-16-2013, 09:35 AM   #42
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Deus Ex Machina is a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly resolved by the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability, or object.

This is the actual definition. Nothing of which describes the ending in Man of Steel.
I know. I never said it did.

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Old 10-16-2013, 09:40 AM   #43
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no worries

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Old 10-16-2013, 06:13 PM   #44
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I know. I never said it did.
If you go to the wikipedia page for dem, and read the first sentence, it exactly describes how the kryptonians were defeated.

-------------------

I think clark could be interpreted as having shown intelligence in mos. For example, he knew how to make fake IDs, and he knew where to apply pressure at the oil rig fir it to hold up long enough. I don't think this was Goyer's intention though.

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Old 10-16-2013, 06:36 PM   #45
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If you go to the wikipedia page for dem, and read the first sentence, it exactly describes how the kryptonians were defeated.

-------------------

I think clark could be interpreted as having shown intelligence in mos. For example, he knew how to make fake IDs, and he knew where to apply pressure at the oil rig fir it to hold up long enough. I don't think this was Goyer's intention though.
That's the thing, I don't consider the PZ resolution to be unexpected. We know the PZ exists from very early on and we can assume the Black Zero would have a generator. As for Jor retro-fitting a phantom drive, I can't remember if that's in the prologue but it's introduced well before the final conflict.

That's a good point about Clark's resourcefulness in hiding his identity -- I'm sure Batman would be proud.

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Old 10-16-2013, 10:19 PM   #46
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Yeah, it was clever, but not clever enough to hide from Lois. It only took her a few weeks to find his hometown, adoptive mother, childhood friend, and him at his adopted father's grave, damn she's good.

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Old 10-16-2013, 10:32 PM   #47
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So if Lois figured out Clark's identity, then Batman should as well? Especially if we're getting the world's greatest detective portrayal of Batman. He certainly has plenty of motivation.

(Or even Lex Luthor, or any other superintelligent villains.)

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Old 10-16-2013, 10:42 PM   #48
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Yea probably, but that's if he Supes gives them a reason to believe he has a secret identity

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Old 10-16-2013, 10:49 PM   #49
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That may be true, but if Lois, as resourceful an individual as she is, could work out that Smallville is a place of importance to the ghost, then Batman, the very definition of resourcefulness, could work out that Superman "grew up in Kansas". A lot of big clues were left behind in the wake of MoS.

And Batman would want to compile as much info as he can on a being who was at the forefront of a world-ending event.

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Old 10-16-2013, 10:57 PM   #50
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MOS did a horrendous job with Superman's identity. If Lois could trace Clark down as if it was nothing, the government can easily do the same. Especially after all the events in the film.

Superman tells them he is 33 years old and grew up in Kansas. That narrows the suspects down to all 33-year old's that were raised in Kansas. Then the Kryptonians land on the Kent Farm while the army is tracking down the location of their landing. Then a big battle happens in Smallville and we know for a fact that at least some people were able to recognize Clark (such as Pete Ross). We even get a scene where a cop drives Lois to the Kent Farm (she specifically asks to be driven to the Kents, meaning the police officer knows who they are). Then when she gets there, she yells "CLARK!" off the top of her lungs as the police officer watches her run towards a destroyed house and a Superman in full costume.

All that's left for the government in the MOS universe now is to look anything suspicious that happened in Smallville in the past 33 years. Anything could expose Clark - lack of birth records, the bus story, a money-hungry snitch who saw the Kryptonian battle, etc.

I get that there is a certain level of disbelief that comes with Superman's secret identity but MOS takes it to a ridiculous degree. At this point, the world's greatest detective not being able to figure out his identity would make him look mentally retarded.

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