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View Poll Results: Do you think Affleck is a good choice?
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Old 10-18-2013, 10:52 AM   #51
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Default Re: Ben Affleck IS Batman!! - Part 9

Yeah I can see why it's a little too much.

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Old 10-18-2013, 11:25 AM   #52
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Default Re: Ben Affleck IS Batman!! - Part 9

If they didn't keep interjecting it in every Bat-incarnations fanboys would whine about no character development or references to it. It's almost like a requirement for some of them.

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Old 10-18-2013, 11:43 AM   #53
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Default Re: Ben Affleck IS Batman!! - Part 9

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That won't happen.

It's written by Goyer. For some reason, he downplayed Bruce's pain over his parents in TDKT. It was virtually non existent. We'd have no idea he was a traumatized person if he wasn't dressing up to clean up his city!

I think that was Nolan's decision though.

All I know is, these characters' pain is overshadowed by their noble values. Clark breaks Zod's neck and is smiling in the next scene...

Bruce witnesses his parents murder, and he hardly ever mentions them again after that!

Goyer doesn't seem to know what traumatized means, except, smile and live happily!

Lol. Seriously? Do you need them constantly showing scene after scene of Bruce with a distressed/sad look on his face as flashbacks of their murder play? Do we need to see him kneeling at their graves? No. That is weak storytelling.

His pain and suffering are exemplified through his anger and determination at (at first) avenging them and then realizing that the problem is bigger than that and that he needs to clean up a city that allowed this needless murder to take place. No need to slap the audience in the face with excessive flashbacks and scenes of the actor being "sad". Nolan at least thinks his audience is intelligent enough to understand that. I'm not sure what you're asking for.

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Old 10-18-2013, 02:11 PM   #54
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Default Re: Ben Affleck IS Batman!! - Part 9

Eh, no one is asking for excessive grieving, but if you never saw begins you wouldn't even know why he was fighting in the first place.

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Old 10-18-2013, 02:36 PM   #55
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Default Re: Ben Affleck IS Batman!! - Part 9

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Eh, no one is asking for excessive grieving, but if you never saw begins you wouldn't even know why he was fighting in the first place.
Well that was an origin story so it makes sense. This Batman is well established and the audience is definitely familiar of the "why."

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Old 10-18-2013, 02:39 PM   #56
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Default Re: Ben Affleck IS Batman!! - Part 9

Nolan has shown characters repeatedly grieving. Memento is up to the brim with that. Although, Leonard in Memento is incapable of moving on.

His Batman needed to be capable of moving on, and moving on would have been much more difficult if he'd internalized that grief much deeper. He also is a man on a complicated mission (unlike Leonard, who only has a single objective), and with Nolan's plot-heavy stories, there simply isn't the time for Bruce, or the movies, to show the slowdown of grief. You set your own emotions aside when there's s*** going down. You keep busy, because there's work to be done.

I wouldn't be against them showing Affleck's Bruce next to his parents' graves in this continuity. I just didn't see the Nolan movies as missing something by not having them.

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Old 10-18-2013, 02:55 PM   #57
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Default Re: Ben Affleck IS Batman!! - Part 9

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I wouldn't be against them showing Affleck's Bruce next to his parents' graves in this continuity.
This is something I'd be happy to see done. It's the murder itself that as been overdone. Batman's grief is part of who he is so that is always going to be there and needs to be there in some aspect.
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I just didn't see the Nolan movies as missing something by not having them.
If that was an argument being made, then I agree with you.

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Nolan has shown characters repeatedly grieving. Memento is up to the brim with that.[...]

His Batman needed to be capable of moving on, and moving on would have been much more difficult if he'd internalized that grief much deeper. He also is a man on a complicated mission (unlike Leonard, who only has a single objective), and with Nolan's plot-heavy stories, there simply isn't the time for Bruce, or the movies, to show the slowdown of grief. You set your own emotions aside when there's s*** going down. You keep busy, because there's work to be done.
Side note: This is an interesting point that you bring up about Nolan. One of my biggest, and quite possibly only, critiques of his work is that I find it emotionally hollow. He is a master of intrigue and his plots are always engaging but I don't find myself caring about the characters involved. And because of his heavy reliance on plots it seems that he is using grief, in quite a few of his films, as an emotional crutch of sorts.

Grief is such an extreme emotional situation that I think he figures people will automatically connect with the character and he can put more of his focus on the puzzles in his stories. Unfortunately there is a lot more to relating to a character than just their surface situation. There is a wide variety of subtleties involved in making that connection to the audience work and I just don't think it's one of his talents.

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Old 10-18-2013, 03:11 PM   #58
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Default Re: Ben Affleck IS Batman!! - Part 9

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Side note: This is an interesting point that you bring up about Nolan. One of my biggest, and quite possibly only, critiques of his work is that I find it emotionally hollow. He is a master of intrigue and his plots are always engaging but I don't find myself caring about the characters involved. And because of his heavy reliance on plots it seems that he is using grief, in quite a few of his films, as an emotional crutch of sorts.

Grief is such an extreme emotional situation that I think he figures people will automatically connect with the character and he can put more of his focus on the puzzles in his stories. Unfortunately there is a lot more to relating to a character than just their surface situation. There is a wide variety of subtleties involved in making that connection to the audience work and I just don't think it's one of his talents.
No, I get that. A good friend of mine, very intelligent person, doesn't really like Nolan's movies because the characters are so cold. She can acknowledge that they are well-made and high-quality, but she doesn't particularly favor them. She explained it as, she doesn't see herself sitting down and having a beer with any of his characters. The only characters that might come close are Eames and Gordon, but that's due to Hardy and Oldman adding warmth that isn't really on the page.

I'd want to sit down and have a coffee with Selina, because I think she's awesome. But the only emotional connection I had with Bruce was wanting to give him a big bear hug at the end of TDK, because the poor man had gone through so much, and he really needed one.

You're right that Nolan uses grief as an emotional crutch. I do connect with the characters, but mostly because their pain is so palpable that I can't help but relate to it, because everyone relates to losing someone. That's often their greatest fear, and it's hard not to get caught up in that, just as you said.

It's his thing, and he constructs such compelling stories around it that I don't mind that he's limiting himself in terms of character motivation. Not every director can be Spielberg. I think Interstellar will be interesting, because there's not as much grief in the script, at least in Jonah's version. Wouldn't be surprised if Nolan added that later, just to have the patented CNolan angst.

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Old 10-18-2013, 03:19 PM   #59
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Default Re: Ben Affleck IS Batman!! - Part 9

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No, I get that. A good friend of mine, very intelligent person, doesn't really like Nolan's movies because the characters are so cold. She can acknowledge that they are well-made and high-quality, but she doesn't particularly favor them. She explained it as, she doesn't see herself sitting down and having a beer with any of his characters. The only characters that might come close are Eames and Gordon, but that's due to Hardy and Oldman adding warmth that isn't really on the page.

I'd want to sit down and have a coffee with Selina, because I think she's awesome. But the only emotional connection I had with Bruce was wanting to give him a big bear hug at the end of TDK, because the poor man had gone through so much, and he really needed one.

You're right that Nolan uses grief as an emotional crutch. I do connect with the characters, but mostly because their pain is so palpable that I can't help but relate to it, because everyone relates to losing someone. That's often their greatest fear, and it's hard not to get caught up in that, just as you said.

It's his thing, and he constructs such compelling stories around it that I don't mind that he's limiting himself in terms of character motivation. Not every director can be Spielberg. I think Interstellar will be interesting, because there's not as much grief in the script, at least in Jonah's version. Wouldn't be surprised if Nolan added that later, just to have the patented CNolan angst.

Sure Nolan's films are a bit "cold", but I'm sure this is a conscious creative decision that he's entirely aware of. I actually respect the restraint in not going for the emotional jugular in the way that someone like Spielberg often does. I felt that Begins had quite a few touching, resonant moments in Bruce looking at his father's stethoscope and having a brief flashback, or even Alfred constantly reminding him "why do we fall?", etc... I appreciate that he never crosses the line into the kind of blatantly manipulative, saccharine territory that Spielberg has been accused of abusing.

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Old 10-18-2013, 03:30 PM   #60
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Default Re: Ben Affleck IS Batman!! - Part 9

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Sure Nolan's films are a bit "cold", but I'm sure this is a conscious creative decision that he's entirely aware of. I actually respect the restraint in not going for the emotional jugular in the way that someone like Spielberg often does. I felt that Begins had quite a few touching, resonant moments in Bruce looking at his father's stethoscope and having a brief flashback, or even Alfred constantly reminding him "why do we fall?", etc... I appreciate that he never crosses the line into the kind of blatantly manipulative, saccharine territory that Spielberg has been accused of abusing.
I meant Spielberg making his characters well-rounded, warm people. The saccharine stuff is what he constructs around them.

I do agree that I'm not a fan of the overly dramatic stuff either. That's why I love Nolan, even as some consider his work too cold and plotty. I even get emotionally caught up in little things that would fly over most people's heads. (Inception: "I came here to tell you...that this world isn't real." TDKR: "Everybody back on the bus! Go go go!" and of course, the throwaway line about the pearls at the end.)

His emotional moments are more quiet, so there's a reverent space around it, instead of it being shoved right up in your face. I didn't shed a single tear in LOTR because of that reason - the death scenes were just too manipulative.

Snyder is a bit superficial in that sense, but I haven't checked out Affleck-directed movies yet (don't hurt me!) so I dunno what he'd do in that regard. If he were tasked with making Batman films as part of the deal, that is.

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Old 10-18-2013, 03:57 PM   #61
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I meant Spielberg making his characters well-rounded, warm people. The saccharine stuff is what he constructs around them.
Fair enough. I just sometimes get the feeling he's going too far in trying to create a "human" character that we can easily project ourselves onto- and therefore feel sad when bad things happen to them. I don't know, it's beginning to feel a bit too rote and transparent to me...maybe I've watched one too many movies.

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I do agree that I'm not a fan of the overly dramatic stuff either. That's why I love Nolan, even as some consider his work too cold and plotty. I even get emotionally caught up in little things that would fly over most people's heads. (Inception: "I came here to tell you...that this world isn't real." TDKR: "Everybody back on the bus! Go go go!" and of course, the throwaway line about the pearls at the end.)

His emotional moments are more quiet, so there's a reverent space around it, instead of it being shoved right up in your face. I didn't shed a single tear in LOTR because of that reason - the death scenes were just too manipulative.


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Snyder is a bit superficial in that sense, but I haven't checked out Affleck-directed movies yet (don't hurt me!) so I dunno what he'd do in that regard. If he were tasked with making Batman films as part of the deal, that is.
Snyder is VERY superficial in EVERY sense. SuckerPunch made me pour salt in my eyes.

Also, Argo isn't all that. Not sure what the hubbub was about...

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Old 10-18-2013, 04:00 PM   #62
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Default Re: Ben Affleck IS Batman!! - Part 9

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Yeah, same.

I disagree.

I didn't think he downplayed it at all. It was ALL over Begins. It just wasn't stuffed down our throats which I enjoyed. It was there, you can see it on his face and that was good enough for me. We know what happened. We had an entire movie dedicated to it. Plus flashbacks in 89 and Forever.

Bruce is an introverted person. A lot of people deal with their pain by letting it sit with them but without talking about it to others. Or it's there in the back of their mind as a driving force but they try not to think of it, shutting it out of their head. People who lose things aren't always sitting around talking about it every chance they get especially if they're the type of personality Bruce is.

I wouldn't mind if every movie that Affleck was in had some of his thoughts on his parents' murder. Simply because ive always enjoyed that stuff in the comics and animated series/mask of the phantasm. They can now do their grave scene that fans have been wanting for decades. But Nolan's way wasn't wrong, hiding that pain was done just right. Chris likes a lot of exposition but when he doesn't do it fans WANT him to do exposition. Nobody's ever completely happy. I don't think they needed to keep showing and telling the fans about the murder and how it's a driving force, it's just unnecessary even if it makes for a cool moment.

We tend to forget about Batman Begins and how the bulk of that story was pretty much all about it. It set the stage for the sequels where you don't have to dive in as much. With this new universe (as was Burton's first movie and Shumacher's first too) we don't get an origin story right off the bat. So most likely the first solo film will have some flashbacks or dialogue about the incident, to set the stage. But after that? Probably non-existent.
Bale and Nolan's take was more noble.
I get he had pain. But it wasn't manifested in the way I prefer. It wasn't bad or wrong, of course. Like I said, it fitted the context of the story and characterization.

Keaton and Kilmer's takes of Bruce's haunted mind is what I prefer best. Where he just stares into space, reliving the memory over and over, day after day. Visits the spot of their murders, something like a ritual for him. The photographs and newsclippings.

I just wish it had more of that. It wasn't necessary, however. And it wouldn't have worked. Bale's Bruce's severity of trauma couldn't have been done in the way or as strong as Keaton's and Kilmer's.

Their pain was done differently. Keaton was a man who wanted to have some purpose in his life. He would wait around in the dark, reliving the trauma, til he was needed as Batman. He couldn't move on. He wanted to be Batman forever. He needed to.

Then Kilmer. He was doing fine. Then he started having the memories back, to a point of crippling him. Because he started blaming himself for his parent's murder. He struggled by trying to put Batman behind, just so Dick wouldn't end up in the dark places he was. Because his pain and loneliness, he blamed on vengeance and revenge. His pain stemmed from himself, not from criminals. Eventually, he knew he wasn't responsible for his parent's deaths, which stopped the haunting pain. He concluded that he was both Bruce Wayne and Batman, not because he had to be (changing Keaton's reasoning), but because he chose to be.

Then he turned into George Clooney after overcoming his issues from the previous films

The pain does manifest in different ways for different reasons. Burton had his take, Schumacher had his and
Nolan had his.

I liked all their takes tbh. They all worked with the story.
I'm sure Affleck will have a different take on his pain.

The point is. Bruce Wayne does have it - pain. In the comics, it's never spoon fed, but you know it's there. That's like Nolan's take. His pain was less severe, because Bruce had to let go of it and Batman.
Other times, circumstances force him to relive the pain to a greater extent. Which is like Burton's and Shumacer's respective takes.

I like all 3. All of them were crafted extremely well in ways that made sense and worked.

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Old 10-18-2013, 06:06 PM   #63
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That is one of the best posts I have read in along time. Bravo Mr. Rodrigo, bravo.

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Old 10-18-2013, 06:56 PM   #64
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Default Re: Ben Affleck IS Batman!! - Part 9

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Bale and Nolan's take was more noble.
I get he had pain. But it wasn't manifested in the way I prefer. It wasn't bad or wrong, of course. Like I said, it fitted the context of the story and characterization.

Keaton and Kilmer's takes of Bruce's haunted mind is what I prefer best. Where he just stares into space, reliving the memory over and over, day after day. Visits the spot of their murders, something like a ritual for him. The photographs and newsclippings.

I just wish it had more of that. It wasn't necessary, however. And it wouldn't have worked. Bale's Bruce's severity of trauma couldn't have been done in the way or as strong as Keaton's and Kilmer's.

Their pain was done differently. Keaton was a man who wanted to have some purpose in his life. He would wait around in the dark, reliving the trauma, til he was needed as Batman. He couldn't move on. He wanted to be Batman forever. He needed to.

Then Kilmer. He was doing fine. Then he started having the memories back, to a point of crippling him. Because he started blaming himself for his parent's murder. He struggled by trying to put Batman behind, just so Dick wouldn't end up in the dark places he was. Because his pain and loneliness, he blamed on vengeance and revenge. His pain stemmed from himself, not from criminals. Eventually, he knew he wasn't responsible for his parent's deaths, which stopped the haunting pain. He concluded that he was both Bruce Wayne and Batman, not because he had to be (changing Keaton's reasoning), but because he chose to be.

Then he turned into George Clooney after overcoming his issues from the previous films

The pain does manifest in different ways for different reasons. Burton had his take, Schumacher had his and
Nolan had his.

I liked all their takes tbh. They all worked with the story.
I'm sure Affleck will have a different take on his pain.

The point is. Bruce Wayne does have it - pain. In the comics, it's never spoon fed, but you know it's there. That's like Nolan's take. His pain was less severe, because Bruce had to let go of it and Batman.
Other times, circumstances force him to relive the pain to a greater extent. Which is like Burton's and Shumacer's respective takes.

I like all 3. All of them were crafted extremely well in ways that made sense and worked.
Each of the films sort of reflect the decades they were made in. B89 was very much a post blade runner slash summer event type block buster of that decade. Batman Forever was a very upbeat kinda overblown cotton candy ride which kinda reflected the booming economy and peace of the 90's ,and B&R basically took it a step too far. The TDK trilogy is very much the post 9/11 Batman which kinda in which all three films could be seen in the context of the issues and events which accorded during the 00's such as Terrorism, Fanaticism, Security, etc. It'll be interesting to see what context Afflecks Batman will be seen in , and how people will view it in the context of the other films.

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Old 10-18-2013, 07:17 PM   #65
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No, I get that. A good friend of mine, very intelligent person, doesn't really like Nolan's movies because the characters are so cold. She can acknowledge that they are well-made and high-quality, but she doesn't particularly favor them.
I agree with your friend in this regard with exception to one masterpiece of a film, that is, The Prestige, which, in my opinion, is both intellectually satisfying and emotionally resonant. Its characters are anything but cold.

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Old 10-18-2013, 07:32 PM   #66
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Nolan's films being "cold." That sounds like something that some people say about Stanley Kubrick's work. I cannot agree with the argument that Keaton's Batman is better. We NEVER really got in his head (Burton was too obsessed with the villains) and I will never support a mass-murdering Batman. Nolan at least got Batman at his core right, even if he change some surface details.

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Old 10-18-2013, 07:37 PM   #67
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Default Re: Ben Affleck IS Batman!! - Part 9

So much I could say to the above, but I won't, because this thread's about Affleck's Batman.

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Old 10-18-2013, 07:39 PM   #68
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Default Re: Ben Affleck IS Batman!! - Part 9

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So much I could say to the above, but I won't, because this thread's about Affleck's Batman.
Heh, I was going to say the same thing.

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Old 10-18-2013, 07:46 PM   #69
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Default Re: Ben Affleck IS Batman!! - Part 9

Good post Rodrigo.

As for the topic of Nolan's characters being too cold. I understand that at times but most of the time I just don't see what people are talking about. Inception and Bruce Wayne's journey in all 3 movies have moved me to tears at times. Does every character have to be a warm character? No. I wouldn't call Bruce Wayne or Cobb warm but I can relate to them or if not that, I can become emotionally invested. Id say Nolan's version of Bruce Wayne has been the warmest and most relatable than any other version in live-action. Cold would be Michael Bay's characters. Well, cold is not the right term, non-existent is better lol. I guess COLD would be something to describe Kubricks characters and movies because he simply hated people. He didn't make movies for characters or emotion, expression, he made them for the technique of filmmaking.


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Old 10-18-2013, 07:49 PM   #70
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Default Re: Ben Affleck IS Batman!! - Part 9

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Nolan's films being "cold." That sounds like something that some people say about Stanley Kubrick's work. I cannot agree with the argument that Keaton's Batman is better. We NEVER really got in his head (Burton was too obsessed with the villains) and I will never support a mass-murdering Batman. Nolan at least got Batman at his core right, even if he change some surface details.
Exactly. Burton and the people around him never read a comic in their life. Nolan read a few but he was at least surrounded by comic geeks. If this new universe is handled by Goyer, Snyder and Affleck....that's 3 massive comic book nerds.

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Old 10-18-2013, 07:55 PM   #71
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^ Well, he got around to reading Killing Joke sometime :P

But yeah, combining the comic knowledgebase of Goyer with the artistry of Snyder and the intelligence of Affleck, if it's not at least a GOOD movie, I'll be sad if it isn't at least a GOOD movie.

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Old 10-18-2013, 08:24 PM   #72
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I agree with your friend in this regard with exception to one masterpiece of a film, that is, The Prestige, which, in my opinion, is both intellectually satisfying and emotionally resonant. Its characters are anything but cold.
Wouldn't want to have a beer with any of them.

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Nolan's films being "cold." That sounds like something that some people say about Stanley Kubrick's work. I cannot agree with the argument that Keaton's Batman is better. We NEVER really got in his head (Burton was too obsessed with the villains) and I will never support a mass-murdering Batman. Nolan at least got Batman at his core right, even if he change some surface details.
Well, that's why Nolan has been called the next Kubrick than the next Spielberg.

But yes....are we hoping for an Affleck-directed Batman in the future? At least we'd be more on topic, discussing directors.

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Old 10-18-2013, 08:29 PM   #73
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Default Re: Ben Affleck IS Batman!! - Part 9

Nolan's movies are more engaging intellectually than they are emotionally, but I don't think that's the same as his characters being cold or hard to feel for; I generally don't think they are. Plus, I think his Batman trilogy is the exception in his oeuvre to that "more engaging intellectually than emotionally" thing.

Okay, I really just wanted to use the word "oeuvre."

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Old 10-18-2013, 08:53 PM   #74
terry78
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Default Re: Ben Affleck IS Batman!! - Part 9

Basically some people strictly go to the movies to think, some go strictly to feel emotion. The only way to get a full experience is to have a hybrid. Both extremes don't make for good film viewing. If I wanted all emotion I'd watch sports, and if I wanted to constantly use my brain I'd go to school.

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Old 10-18-2013, 08:56 PM   #75
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Default Re: Ben Affleck IS Batman!! - Part 9

^ THIS!

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