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Old 10-19-2013, 12:21 PM   #1
Rephe
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Default "Joyless" ?

I remember reading a review of Man of Steel where the guy said it was just absolutely joyless. Maybe it's that the plot and special effects got a bit thick at times, with some really serious consequences, but I wouldn't fault Man of Steel for that. That's just the nature of how Kryptonians of THAT power with THAT plan... I mean, that's how it'd go, "realistically". Right?

That said, there's an awful lot of humor in this movie, and some of it's really obvious (like when Clark spears that guy's Mack Truck with like three telephone poles), but there's also some really sly, subtle dry humor in the movie too.

One of my favorite moments that comes to mind is when Dr. Hamilton shows up during Superman and Lois talking in the interrogation room. Superman says, "You're Emil Hamilton. I know. I can see your ID card in your left pocket, along with a half eaten roll of Wintergreen Life Savers."

And right then Dr. Hamilton does this >_> look and puts his hand over his pocket, like he lost those Life Savers at some point during the day and Clark just happened to point them out. (To my understanding, Dr. Hamilton is somewhat absent-minded in some of the comics, right?) I just thought that little moment was just great. Little stuff like that that made me chuckle.

Another one is when Zod is on the Scout Ship to go and secure the Genesis Chamber and Jor-El's hologram shows up and starts talking to him. At the end of that, the conversation goes:

Zod : "Ship, have you managed to quarantine this invasive intelligence?"
Jor-El : "It failed."
Scout Ship : "I have."

I laughed so hard at that. I really did.

So... what are some of the moments YOU found to be funny? Even if it's a little dry and sardonic, and just real little subtle things.

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Old 10-19-2013, 03:15 PM   #2
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Default Re: "Joyless" ?

My definition of Joyless for this movie was how Superman was treated by the script as the "fifth Kryptonian" regarding the public perspective.

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Old 10-19-2013, 03:52 PM   #3
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Default Re: "Joyless" ?

My problem with the film being "joyless",is less about the amount of humor,(which,lets be honest,there wasn't all that much of.) but more about the lack of exhilaration at being Superman.Supe is one of the more positive,uplifting characters,and for the most part he's rendered ineffectual and somber.

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Old 10-19-2013, 04:31 PM   #4
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Default Re: "Joyless" ?

Oh, okay. I get you both. I understand. And to that end, I would say that if I were in this Kal's boots, I'd be confused to determined to freaking out over the whole situation. I think this character has a journey ahead of him, still, to get to that point, but I can definitely see him getting there. He's got flashes of it before the stress of the Kryptonian invasion and not wanting to fail mankind and all this really weighty stuff goes on... I have hope that he'll find his comfort coming out of it into the next films.

At any rate, I started on one thing with the "Joyless" and went into another point that I meant to get into, I just made a mistake and thought they were connected. The point of the thread (and I'd be totally okay if any of the mods want to edit the title / OP to reflect this) was to draw attention to the little tiny bits of humor that may not have been in the script exactly, like Emil Hamilton's reaction, etc. That's what I meant.

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Old 10-19-2013, 04:49 PM   #5
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Default Re: "Joyless" ?

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Originally Posted by Rephe View Post
Oh, okay. I get you both. I understand. And to that end, I would say that if I were in this Kal's boots, I'd be confused to determined to freaking out over the whole situation. I think this character has a journey ahead of him, still, to get to that point, but I can definitely see him getting there. He's got flashes of it before the stress of the Kryptonian invasion and not wanting to fail mankind and all this really weighty stuff goes on... I have hope that he'll find his comfort coming out of it into the next films.

At any rate, I started on one thing with the "Joyless" and went into another point that I meant to get into, I just made a mistake and thought they were connected. The point of the thread (and I'd be totally okay if any of the mods want to edit the title / OP to reflect this) was to draw attention to the little tiny bits of humor that may not have been in the script exactly, like Emil Hamilton's reaction, etc. That's what I meant.
I think the best kind of humor would have been there if regular people would have seen a super-man in action.

Other than that, I feel the humor in MoS felt off many times (He's kinda hot).

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Old 10-19-2013, 05:00 PM   #6
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Default Re: "Joyless" ?

I prefer my comic book movies joyless. Just my outlook on life, so I prefer comic book movies to have their heroes set in that world.

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Old 10-19-2013, 05:02 PM   #7
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Default Re: "Joyless" ?

I'd have gladly got rid of some of the fight scenes for character moments, light hearted and otherwise. Joyless does not mean humourless, the scene with Clark and Martha on the steps when he comes home, that had joy in it. When Clark learns to fly, that has joy in it.

But most of the scenes Jonathan are joyless, he's never enjoying raising Clark, he's always busy giving him some sort of lecture. As already stated Clark is just seen as the 5th Kryptonian. I'd have liked to see a scene or two of Daily Planet Clark, just like Batman Begins has a few scenes of Bruce Wayne as a playboy.

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Old 10-19-2013, 05:03 PM   #8
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Default Re: "Joyless" ?

A movie has to have a rhythm of moods. Snyder isn't good at pacing mood. The plot and action was great, but they didn't let more upbeat scenes sink in and the constant dim filters wasn't helping. He should have made some scenes brighter and last longer.

There was joy and humor but it got overshadowed.

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Old 10-19-2013, 05:39 PM   #9
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Default Re: "Joyless" ?

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Originally Posted by Human Torch View Post
My problem with the film being "joyless",is less about the amount of humor,(which,lets be honest,there wasn't all that much of.) but more about the lack of exhilaration at being Superman.Supe is one of the more positive,uplifting characters,and for the most part he's rendered ineffectual and somber.
I really don't like how Superman is now suddenly obligated to be happy-go-lucky and funny just because the Donner films said so. In my opinion, they held the character back from reaching the sort of potential I wanted to see, and is probably the reason to why many prefer Batman to Superman.

I personally believe Superman can be interpreted to be even a more tragic, angsty and somber character(as seen in some episodes of Smallville) than Batman, except he chose rise above all that tragedy and make things better and hopeful about it rather than go deep and vengeful about it like Batman.

In my perception of how a Superman origin should go(which MOS nailed btw) it should carry the theme of sacrifice(as emphasized in the Krypton sequence as Jor-El had to betray his people to save his son and sacrifice his life to save Kal-El, the Tornado scene where Jonathan Kent told his son not to save his life just to sacrifice his life for protecting his secret and in many instances in Smallville, the show). For anybody, knowing that your loved ones will always sacrifice their lives and die for you because of what you will bring to the world(even though you are practically a god) and that "the world will always need you" would weigh anybody down.

Plus the fact that he "lives in a world of cardboard" and that he lived as a human only to realize he was never one of us, plus always having to hold himself back creates many hardships for him, another somber and perhaps angsty theme that comes with being Superman. This was seen a lot in Smallville(for example in the early years he felt he could never truly be with Lana even when the door was wide open and of course in the movie with the flashbacks).

All in all, the bottom line here is: Superman, especially in modern years is not as happy go lucky as some people think he is. I think in later movies there will be a progression in tone and things will become more hopeful.

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Old 10-19-2013, 05:47 PM   #10
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Default Re: "Joyless" ?

^ I like that. I think that's one of the biggest reasons why I really loved Man of Steel. It wasn't really any one thing in particular, but all of it in its own mood. It really resonated with me, personally.

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Old 10-19-2013, 06:19 PM   #11
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Default Re: "Joyless" ?

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Originally Posted by smallville fan View Post
I really don't like how Superman is now suddenly obligated to be happy-go-lucky and funny just because the Donner films said so.
There is a difference between funny and joy. A child's birth is a joyful experience, it isn't humorous, though.

Quote:
In my opinion, they held the character back from reaching the sort of potential I wanted to see, and is probably the reason to why many prefer Batman to Superman.
All-Star Superman is widely considered as one of the best "cape" comic books ever written, the story revolves around Superman coming to terms with his own mortality, whether humanity will be safe without him, as well as trying to prevent his own demise.

The story is still joyful. Because it's a celebration of the character.

Quote:
I personally believe Superman can be interpreted to be even a more tragic, angsty and somber character(as seen in some episodes of Smallville) than Batman, except he chose rise above all that tragedy and make things better and hopeful about it rather than go deep and vengeful about it like Batman.
Batman can also be interpreted as a joyful character. Despite battling insane foes and risking his life, he knows how cool it is to be Batman and Bruce Wayne. He's the world's most eligible bachelor and has multiple women on his arms, he's a billionaire, he drives sports cars, he has a flying car, the coolest gadgets in the world:
"They say you're cool, like James Bond"
"James Bond? Oh no, I'm much cooler than he is".

Just because something can be done in a story does not mean it should be defined by it.

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In my perception of how a Superman origin should go(which MOS nailed btw) it should carry the theme of sacrifice(as emphasized in the Krypton sequence as Jor-El had to betray his people to save his son and sacrifice his life to save Kal-El, the Tornado scene where Jonathan Kent told his son not to save his life just to sacrifice his life for protecting his secret and in many instances in Smallville, the show). For anybody, knowing that your loved ones will always sacrifice their lives and die for you because of what you will bring to the world(even though you are practically a god) and that "the world will always need you" would weigh anybody down.
The story sure is one of sacrifice, and of hope. But being Superman should not be a sacrifice for Clark. Clark wants to be Superman, he wants to be saving people, that is who he is (not in a "who is the real man sense"). Clark should find joy in being Superman, and the film did not express that.

Quote:
Plus the fact that he "lives in a world of cardboard" and that he lived as a human only to realize he was never one of us, plus always having to hold himself back creates many hardships for him, another somber and perhaps angsty theme that comes with being Superman. This was seen a lot in Smallville(for example in the early years he felt he could never truly be with Lana even when the door was wide open and of course in the movie with the flashbacks).
The thing is though, that's not what the film presented us (in regards to being an alien) with at all. Clark was angsty when he was lost, and lacked identity, but the first scene of him after he finds out who he is, he's the happiest we see him in the film, he's beaming to his mother and we see he considers himself a child of both worlds.

Quote:
All in all, the bottom line here is: Superman, especially in modern years is not as happy go lucky as some people think he is. I think in later movies there will be a progression in tone and things will become more hopeful.
Y'all need some more comics up in here.

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Old 10-19-2013, 06:32 PM   #12
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Default Re: "Joyless" ?

^ Great points, for sure. I can get how Man of Steel would be joyless after that. Like you said, childbirth is a very joyful experience, but in MoS, it's all secret and illegal and heresy, etc. There's no real moment of "holy crap, we just had a child, how cool are we?" moment.

I saw All-Star Superman, the animated film, but never read it. I was hesitant to trust another All Star book after being taken advantage of by the Child Abuse Batman story. Maybe I should really give that one a shot. I liked the film for sure, IIRC I didn't really get into it until after Clark Kent tells Lex Luthor that he and Superman might have been really great friends under different circumstances. I've personally had to deal with my own mortality (it's not important to the discussion, but I had 32 surgeries before I turned 18, I had about 7 death clocks put on me as a kid), so that really resonated with me, because I felt like that with some of the people I met and hadn't really gotten to know.

I like how you put it, though, about joy being in wanting to be Superman. Wanting to help people for the sake of helping people. Man of Steel was more about wanting to be accepted, and helping people for the sake of being accepted, until he finally gets into the scout ship and Jor-El tells him that saving people was the entire point, basically. Like you said, because he lacks identity.

And just like what you said, he's the most joyful right after he finds his heritage, and right before that heritage starts to bite him in the ass. That's why I think there'll be a lot more of joyful Superman in future movies. Great points for sure, man. (Or, lady?)


Last edited by Rephe; 10-19-2013 at 06:36 PM.
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Old 10-19-2013, 07:08 PM   #13
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Default Re: "Joyless" ?

The issue is that Superman can hit different emotions. Some people want Superman to be the brightest star in the room. Me I prefer the Lois and Clark and STAS series Superman. He's a good guy but he's normal bloke with...........with super powers.

They had to deal with the reality that these powers also kinda suck. You can't fly around all the time. You're going to have to walk away from fights you can win and restraint. Also having to deal with collateral damage. But by the end of the movie felt very joyed and Clark was in a better place. He had purpose and a plan. Far different from where we found him.

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Old 10-20-2013, 05:37 AM   #14
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Default Re: "Joyless" ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Llama_Shepherd View Post
There is a difference between funny and joy. A child's birth is a joyful experience, it isn't humorous, though.

All-Star Superman is widely considered as one of the best "cape" comic books ever written, the story revolves around Superman coming to terms with his own mortality, whether humanity will be safe without him, as well as trying to prevent his own demise.

The story is still joyful. Because it's a celebration of the character.

Batman can also be interpreted as a joyful character. Despite battling insane foes and risking his life, he knows how cool it is to be Batman and Bruce Wayne. He's the world's most eligible bachelor and has multiple women on his arms, he's a billionaire, he drives sports cars, he has a flying car, the coolest gadgets in the world:
"They say you're cool, like James Bond"
"James Bond? Oh no, I'm much cooler than he is".

Just because something can be done in a story does not mean it should be defined by it.

The story sure is one of sacrifice, and of hope. But being Superman should not be a sacrifice for Clark. Clark wants to be Superman, he wants to be saving people, that is who he is (not in a "who is the real man sense"). Clark should find joy in being Superman, and the film did not express that.

The thing is though, that's not what the film presented us (in regards to being an alien) with at all. Clark was angsty when he was lost, and lacked identity, but the first scene of him after he finds out who he is, he's the happiest we see him in the film, he's beaming to his mother and we see he considers himself a child of both worlds.

Y'all need some more comics up in here.
1) What I meant was the general tone of the Donner films. I like to see happy stuff from time to time with Superman, but it shouldn't be "unrealistically happy" to the point where it feels like a Superfriends cartoon. That's the general impression I felt those silly critics wanted.

2) I like All-Star Superman as well but I don't think this Superman's quite at that point yet. Heck, I don't believe it should even be brought up in comparison with an origin story. The story is about a happy ending for Superman when all the battles have been fought and all the songs have been sung as they say. I mean it resolves the long standing conflict of Superman vs Lex Luthor.

3) Batman being joyful about the mission?...I think not. There's nothing cool about always having to go out and take out the bad guys. It's a responsibility for Batman. Bruce Wayne doesn't even like living the Billionaire playboy life, he'd rather be out in Gotham fighting crime as Batman's the real identity.

4) Clark does indeed want to be Superman, but all those sacrifices be it from his loved ones or a part of his soul after snapping Zod's neck help shape him to be the man he's destined to be and to a small degree influence his choice as he realizes that being a hero is his purpose.

5) I was referring to his childhood growing up as well as the continuous facade he has to use when he's not wearing the costume as well as some moments when he's with Lois. I was further debunking some silly idea that being Superman and having his life is "Super-Duper-Ultra-Happy Go Lucky" as what the critics perceive Superman to be.

6) I've felt I've read all the relevant comics needed.(Earth One especially)

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Old 10-20-2013, 06:28 AM   #15
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Default Re: "Joyless" ?

To me, the film was joyless for a few reasons:

1. They added to aspects of the origin to make it even more tragic... to the point where they went over the top. There is enough tragedy in finding out your parents and your entire race are gone and you are the only one left. There is so much to be explored there already. And there is enough tragedy in your father dying when your a young man, without making it directly because of you and something you could have stopped from happening.

It just seemed like overkill.

2. The only reactions we got of 'the public' to Superman was Jenny's line of 'he saved us', which just felt kind of limp. How hard would it have been to have hired a bunch of extras and have more people around coming out of the rubble than just Perry, Jenny and Lombard? To have shots of groups of people all slowly realising they are safe now, pointing as Superman, smiling etc. To be able to actually see evidence of the amount of lives he'd just saved.

But no. All we see is a wasteland of buildings (and probably bodies) and 3 people he's managed to save.

3. The neck snap - because ending a film with a heroes soul crushing defeat is joyless. Forcing a hero to take another mans life in such a violent way is not in any way joyful.

Now, you can LIKE the ending as much as you want. But I don't get how anyone can argue with that.

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Originally Posted by Human Torch View Post
My problem with the film being "joyless",is less about the amount of humor,(which,lets be honest,there wasn't all that much of.) but more about the lack of exhilaration at being Superman. Supes is one of the more positive, uplifting characters, and for the most part he's rendered ineffectual and somber.
Agreed.

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Originally Posted by smallville fan View Post
I really don't like how Superman is now suddenly obligated to be happy-go-lucky and funny just because the Donner films said so. In my opinion, they held the character back from reaching the sort of potential I wanted to see, and is probably the reason to why many prefer Batman to Superman.
Who said anything about Superman being happy-go-lucky?

I don't like happy go lucky Supes either. I like Superman to have issues, but BEING Superman is what ultimately means he bests those issues. That's where the joy and feeling of triumph comes in.

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Originally Posted by smallville fan View Post
I personally believe Superman can be interpreted to be even a more tragic, angsty and somber character(as seen in some episodes of Smallville) than Batman, except he chose rise above all that tragedy and make things better and hopeful about it rather than go deep and vengeful about it like Batman.
Absolutely.

Except that I didn't feel the movies expressed that. They showed a tragic, depressed and lost character - and by the end, he didn't seem like someone who had risen above it all by embracing who he was... he seemed like someone who was now EVEN more scarred and troubled by the events of the film.

Which left me feeling joyless.

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Originally Posted by smallville fan View Post
In my perception of how a Superman origin should go(which MOS nailed btw) it should carry the theme of sacrifice(as emphasized in the Krypton sequence as Jor-El had to betray his people to save his son and sacrifice his life to save Kal-El, the Tornado scene where Jonathan Kent told his son not to save his life just to sacrifice his life for protecting his secret and in many instances in Smallville, the show). For anybody, knowing that your loved ones will always sacrifice their lives and die for you because of what you will bring to the world(even though you are practically a god) and that "the world will always need you" would weigh anybody down.
I don't think sacrifice should be a main theme of a Superman origin film.

Jor-el and Lara sending their child off into space is not a sacrifice... it's them saving his life. Johnathon Kent and Martha Kent raising Clark... should not be a sacrifice - they finally have the child they always wanted. Clark deciding to come out of hiding and be a hero - should not be a sacrifice. It should be Clark finally feeling free to be who he's always been.

Now, later stories where Superman has been around a while, would much better suit a theme of sacrifice. You can explore how much of a toll what he sees on a daily basis takes on him. You can explore how much of his personal life he has to give up in order to continue being Superman. You can see what effects it has on his relationship with Lois etc.

But IMO, the origin should be a story filled with hope.

Superman isn't the kind of character you should walk out of the movie feeling sorry for because they've had to go through so much.

He's the kind of character that you should massively respect for having been through so much.

There's a fine line, and it's all about how the film handles it's ending.

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Originally Posted by Llama_Shepherd View Post
All-Star Superman is widely considered as one of the best "cape" comic books ever written, the story revolves around Superman coming to terms with his own mortality, whether humanity will be safe without him, as well as trying to prevent his own demise.

The story is still joyful. Because it's a celebration of the character.

Batman can also be interpreted as a joyful character. Despite battling insane foes and risking his life, he knows how cool it is to be Batman and Bruce Wayne. He's the world's most eligible bachelor and has multiple women on his arms, he's a billionaire, he drives sports cars, he has a flying car, the coolest gadgets in the world:
"They say you're cool, like James Bond"
"James Bond? Oh no, I'm much cooler than he is".

Just because something can be done in a story does not mean it should be defined by it.

The story sure is one of sacrifice, and of hope. But being Superman should not be a sacrifice for Clark. Clark wants to be Superman, he wants to be saving people, that is who he is (not in a "who is the real man sense"). Clark should find joy in being Superman, and the film did not express that.

The thing is though, that's not what the film presented us (in regards to being an alien) with at all. Clark was angsty when he was lost, and lacked identity, but the first scene of him after he finds out who he is, he's the happiest we see him in the film, he's beaming to his mother and we see he considers himself a child of both worlds.

Y'all need some more comics up in here.
Agree with everything you said.

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Originally Posted by smallville fan View Post
1) What I meant was the general tone of the Donner films. I like to see happy stuff from time to time with Superman, but it shouldn't be "unrealistically happy" to the point where it feels like a Superfriends cartoon. That's the general impression I felt those silly critics wanted.
Well I think your impression is a bit presumptuous and dismissive, as I don't think that's what those 'silly critics' where saying at all.

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Last edited by hopefuldreamer; 10-20-2013 at 06:40 AM.
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Old 10-20-2013, 09:07 AM   #16
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Default Re: "Joyless" ?

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1) What I meant was the general tone of the Donner films. I like to see happy stuff from time to time with Superman, but it shouldn't be "unrealistically happy" to the point where it feels like a Superfriends cartoon. That's the general impression I felt those silly critics wanted.
Well you'll never know what they wanted, so why not converse with us? But that doesn't change the fact that humour is not a synonym for joy.

For example, I think The Dark Knight Rises is a joyful film, but the film takes itself deathly serious with it's morose theme of a man having his life dominated by pain. But there are great character moments dispersed throughout it with Selina, Alfred, Bruce himself as well as the ending. It's even more joyful because of how bad a position all the characters are in the beginning of the film, Gordon is living a lie, Bruce is defeated, Selina is on the run, Alfred is watching his son waste away etc, but none of that sounds joyful.

Quote:
2) I like All-Star Superman as well but I don't think this Superman's quite at that point yet. Heck, I don't believe it should even be brought up in comparison with an origin story. The story is about a happy ending for Superman when all the battles have been fought and all the songs have been sung as they say. I mean it resolves the long standing conflict of Superman vs Lex Luthor.
The specific content doesn't matter at all, it's the context and general content, but in any case, how about Superman and the Man of Steel, Superman: Birthright? Both are still celebrations of all facets of the character, and origin tales for a simpler analogy.

As for All-Star, Superman comforting Regan, who is about to commit suicide, that doesn't hinge on the main plot. Clark playing with Krypto on the Kent farm doesn't hinge on the main plot. Superman visiting sick children and giving them hope doesn't hinge on the main plot. Having a date with Lois, trusting Jimmy with something that can kill him, saving two of his ancestors, a married couple, by giving them the Phantom Zone. All great character moments, all of them contained within what could only be described as a sombre story, all of them joyful.



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3) Batman being joyful about the mission?...I think not. There's nothing cool about always having to go out and take out the bad guys. It's a responsibility for Batman. Bruce Wayne doesn't even like living the Billionaire playboy life, he'd rather be out in Gotham fighting crime as Batman's the real identity.
It doesn't matter what you think, I never stated an opinion, I stated a fact (which wasn't that the mission was joyous, but who he is, both in and out of the public eye). For the past decade Batman's been a well adjusted adult, and from the 40's-80's it was the same, more of Batman's history, as well as his most successful periods have been about a "relatively" well adjusted Bruce Wayne. Sure, he might consider being Bruce Wayne a chore, but it's one that he's happy to do.

Quote:
4) Clark does indeed want to be Superman, but all those sacrifices be it from his loved ones or a part of his soul after snapping Zod's neck help shape him to be the man he's destined to be and to a small degree influence his choice as he realizes that being a hero is his purpose.
None of Clark's family should be making sacrifices for him to be Superman. That's the whole point of Superman, it's Clark's choice to turn devote his life to being Superman and turning Clark Kent into a "nobody".

Quote:
5) I was referring to his childhood growing up as well as the continuous facade he has to use when he's not wearing the costume as well as some moments when he's with Lois. I was further debunking some silly idea that being Superman and having his life is "Super-Duper-Ultra-Happy Go Lucky" as what the critics perceive Superman to be.
That's not what you said though. You said knowing he wasn't human, which he didn't know until he was 33. Also, you still don't know what critics meant unless you ask them directly, stop making assumptions.

Quote:
6) I've felt I've read all the relevant comics needed.(Earth One especially)
Keep thinking that, it won't make you right. Also Earth One is not a comic book, and piss poor average anyway. If you want something relevant, try drawing from all eras of Superman's history, like:

All-Star Superman
Superman and the Men of Steel through to Superman and the Fiend From Dimension 5
Kingdom Come
Final Crisis: Superman Beyond
JLA v3
Superman: Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?
Superman: For the Man who has Everything
Superman: Last Son
Superman: Greatest Stories Ever Told
Must There Be a Superman?
What's So Funny About Truth, Justice and the American Way?
Up, Up and Away
Superman: For All Seasons
Superman: Secret Identity

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Old 10-20-2013, 10:08 AM   #17
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Default Re: "Joyless" ?

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Originally Posted by hopefuldreamer View Post
To me, the film was joyless for a few reasons:

1. They added to aspects of the origin to make it even more tragic... to the point where they went over the top. There is enough tragedy in finding out your parents and your entire race are gone and you are the only one left. There is so much to be explored there already. And there is enough tragedy in your father dying when your a young man, without making it directly because of you and something you could have stopped from happening.

It just seemed like overkill.

2. The only reactions we got of 'the public' to Superman was Jenny's line of 'he saved us', which just felt kind of limp. How hard would it have been to have hired a bunch of extras and have more people around coming out of the rubble than just Perry, Jenny and Lombard? To have shots of groups of people all slowly realising they are safe now, pointing as Superman, smiling etc. To be able to actually see evidence of the amount of lives he'd just saved.

But no. All we see is a wasteland of buildings (and probably bodies) and 3 people he's managed to save.

3. The neck snap - because ending a film with a heroes soul crushing defeat is joyless. Forcing a hero to take another mans life in such a violent way is not in any way joyful.

Now, you can LIKE the ending as much as you want. But I don't get how anyone can argue with that.

Who said anything about Superman being happy-go-lucky?

I don't like happy go lucky Supes either. I like Superman to have issues, but BEING Superman is what ultimately means he bests those issues. That's where the joy and feeling of triumph comes in.

Absolutely.

Except that I didn't feel the movies expressed that. They showed a tragic, depressed and lost character - and by the end, he didn't seem like someone who had risen above it all by embracing who he was... he seemed like someone who was now EVEN more scarred and troubled by the events of the film.

Which left me feeling joyless.

I don't think sacrifice should be a main theme of a Superman origin film.

Jor-el and Lara sending their child off into space is not a sacrifice... it's them saving his life. Johnathon Kent and Martha Kent raising Clark... should not be a sacrifice - they finally have the child they always wanted. Clark deciding to come out of hiding and be a hero - should not be a sacrifice. It should be Clark finally feeling free to be who he's always been.

Now, later stories where Superman has been around a while, would much better suit a theme of sacrifice. You can explore how much of a toll what he sees on a daily basis takes on him. You can explore how much of his personal life he has to give up in order to continue being Superman. You can see what effects it has on his relationship with Lois etc.

But IMO, the origin should be a story filled with hope.

Superman isn't the kind of character you should walk out of the movie feeling sorry for because they've had to go through so much.

He's the kind of character that you should massively respect for having been through so much.

There's a fine line, and it's all about how the film handles it's ending.

Well I think your impression is a bit presumptuous and dismissive, as I don't think that's what those 'silly critics' where saying at all.
1) There were only really 3 tragic defining moments in the film(Kal-El losing his entire race, Pa Kent dying and the neck snap), no overkill here.

2) Wait for the sequel. Goyer/Snyder wants to save all that public reaction as a plot device for future movies. They want to give us more than a 1 minute montage of news reels and interviews as seen in Avengers. If you can't deal with the way in which they want to do things, I suggest you should just stop complaining and whinging and just leave.

3) That neck snap was the most ballsy and gutsy move I've ever seen somebody do for a character. If anything it made me more curious to see where things go from here. Too many superheroes have been getting off Scott free and getting abnormally lucky to the point where it's unrealistic and the novelty's lost. Plus if Smallville's anything to go by, when significant changes are made to the Superman mythos, people will get over it and learn to accept it. I remember when people screamed in rage when Lex Luthor saw Clark's face without any glasses or even learning his name or when Lois was introduced or when Clark pretty much defeated his entire rogue's gallery before wearing the suit and without flying or introducing Green Arrow.

4) Again, he's not there yet, wait for the sequel.

5) Sacrifice should be a big theme into developing Superman. Some of the better episodes of Smallville which develops Clark's character most of the time involves a form of sacrifice. I never said Jor-El sending his son into space or the Kents adopting was a sacrifice or toll on them. Jor-El had to betray his people to save his son and sacrifice his life to save Kal-El from Zod. In the Tornado scene where Jonathan Kent told his son not to save his life just to sacrifice his life for protecting his secret. That is what parents do; they make sacrifices and bend over backwards in the name of their children. As for more hope, wait for the sequel.

6) It doesn't help when I see silly critics saying "Nolan and Snyder didn't need to reboot and change" or "I want the Superman I grew up with". It tells me that these people are silly and don't know that Superman's one of the most ever-changing characters.

Quote:
Keep thinking that, it won't make you right. Also Earth One is not a comic book, and piss poor average anyway. If you want something relevant, try drawing from all eras of Superman's history, like:

All-Star Superman
Superman and the Men of Steel through to Superman and the Fiend From Dimension 5
Kingdom Come
Final Crisis: Superman Beyond
JLA v3
Superman: Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?
Superman: For the Man who has Everything
Superman: Last Son
Superman: Greatest Stories Ever Told
Must There Be a Superman?
What's So Funny About Truth, Justice and the American Way?
Up, Up and Away
Superman: For All Seasons
Superman: Secret Identity
Most of these books don't pertain to the origin

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Old 10-20-2013, 12:14 PM   #18
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Default Re: "Joyless" ?

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Originally Posted by smallville fan View Post
6) I've felt I've read all the relevant comics needed.(Earth One especially)
Quote:
Originally Posted by smallville fan View Post
If you can't deal with the way in which they want to do things, I suggest you should just stop complaining and whinging and just leave.
The two statements alone are bad enough. Put them together and they've made you one of the worst posters i've ever seen on this forum.

Well done.


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"The problem," Pa used to say, "is people. As far back as we go, we've always had problems with sharing. Seems everyone's too busy holding on to what they've got to care how their neighbors are doing."


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Old 10-20-2013, 12:35 PM   #19
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Default Re: "Joyless" ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hopefuldreamer View Post
To me, the film was joyless for a few reasons:

1. They added to aspects of the origin to make it even more tragic... to the point where they went over the top. There is enough tragedy in finding out your parents and your entire race are gone and you are the only one left. There is so much to be explored there already. And there is enough tragedy in your father dying when your a young man, without making it directly because of you and something you could have stopped from happening.

It just seemed like overkill.
I've heard people say it was silly for him to die in the tornado. People are crazy, they will sacrifice more for their pets than human beings. I don't remember where this was from but there was a survey that asked people if their house was burning with their dog inside and their neighbors house was burning, who would they save if they had a choice. Most said they would save their dog. Anyways, I felt that it showed the respect that he had for his father. His dad didn't think it was time and he sacrificed his life for what he thought was best for his son. Clark respected him that much that he didn't do what he knew he could do.

Quote:
2. The only reactions we got of 'the public' to Superman was Jenny's line of 'he saved us', which just felt kind of limp. How hard would it have been to have hired a bunch of extras and have more people around coming out of the rubble than just Perry, Jenny and Lombard? To have shots of groups of people all slowly realising they are safe now, pointing as Superman, smiling etc. To be able to actually see evidence of the amount of lives he'd just saved.

But no. All we see is a wasteland of buildings (and probably bodies) and 3 people he's managed to save.
Not true at all. If you look carefully, people are slowly coming from behind the rubble.




Quote:
They showed a tragic, depressed and lost character - and by the end, he didn't seem like someone who had risen above it all by embracing who he was... he seemed like someone who was now EVEN more scarred and troubled by the events of the film.

I think it was perfect. He doesn't have super human emotions. I think he was overwhelmed by the fact that he had to kill Zod. I think he acted quickly and felt it was his only choice in the situation. Zod said he would never stop. Everything was happening so fast. Maybe in the future Superman will decide differently. Maybe that was behind his cry..."what have I done?", "was that the right thing?", etc. I'm sure that part of his character will be expounded upon in the future.


Last edited by Adamantium; 10-20-2013 at 12:39 PM.
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Old 10-20-2013, 12:56 PM   #20
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Default Re: "Joyless" ?

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Originally Posted by Adamantium View Post
I've heard people say it was silly for him to die in the tornado. People are crazy, they will sacrifice more for their pets than human beings. I don't remember where this was from but there was a survey that asked people if their house was burning with their dog inside and their neighbors house was burning, who would they save if they had a choice. Most said they would save their dog.
I didn't say it was silly to try to save a pet. I'd probably do the same myself.

I said it was silly to not let Clark go do it, because he could have easily done a better and fast job of that rescue without giving away his powers.

It was an idea that might have worked if they'd done it a bit differently, but was so poorly executed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adamantium View Post
Anyways, I felt that it showed the respect that he had for his father. His dad didn't think it was time and he sacrificed his life for what he thought was best for his son. Clark respected him that much that he didn't do what he knew he could do.
I've never questioned Jonathon's intentions. Makes perfect sense to wanna protect your son, even with your life.

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Originally Posted by Adamantium View Post
Not true at all. If you look carefully, people are slowly coming from behind the rubble.
I don't think you should have to look carefully. I think people should have been used to show something more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adamantium View Post
I think it was perfect. He doesn't have super human emotions. I think he was overwhelmed by the fact that he had to kill Zod. I think he acted quickly and felt it was his only choice in the situation. Zod said he would never stop. Everything was happening so fast. Maybe in the future Superman will decide differently. Maybe that was behind his cry..."what have I done?", "was that the right thing?", etc. I'm sure that part of his character will be expounded upon in the future.
Like I said, plenty of people like it.

I am not arguing with anyone about that (i'm so very bored of doing so).

I only argue here that it is one of the things about the film that made it joyless.

Are you saying it was joyful?

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I think back to my father. As a farmer, he had a natural understanding for the Earth. I remember him telling me this world is capable of providing for all its creatures. Even now, with so many more people, there exists enough food for everyone.

"The problem," Pa used to say, "is people. As far back as we go, we've always had problems with sharing. Seems everyone's too busy holding on to what they've got to care how their neighbors are doing."


*\S/T*
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Old 10-20-2013, 12:58 PM   #21
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Default Re: "Joyless" ?

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If you can't deal with the way in which they want to do things, I suggest you should just stop complaining and whinging and just leave.
How about if you deal with different opinions? Too much to ask?

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Old 10-20-2013, 01:07 PM   #22
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Default Re: "Joyless" ?

Take it from someone who didn't like the film I think some criticisms were unfair.
My two main (only real ones but they really possef me off) problems with MOS:
1) Not nessesarly joyless but IMO it had no charm. We need stuff like supes taking Lois over the city, you know stuff that makes you smile like how SM:TM made me.
2) God I really did not like that third act. Reminded me of transformers really. If there was even more chat inbetween the fights and showing Superman, you know, saving people I would be cool with it.

Merge SR and MOS and we would get a film on par with TDK IMO.

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Old 10-20-2013, 03:18 PM   #23
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Default Re: "Joyless" ?

Joyless would be too harsh a term for me to use, but I certainly could have gone for some more uplifting/upbeat sequences.
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If you can't deal with the way in which they want to do things, I suggest you should just stop complaining and whinging and just leave.
Spare us all the sanctimony

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Old 10-20-2013, 05:35 PM   #24
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Default Re: "Joyless" ?

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The two statements alone are bad enough. Put them together and they've made you one of the worst posters i've ever seen on this forum.

Well done.


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Originally Posted by Senator Pleasury View Post
How about if you deal with different opinions? Too much to ask?
What I meant was if you don't like the way in which Goyer wanted to tell it, don't bother investing in the sequel.

I liked Superman Earth One. Does anyone have a problem with that?


Last edited by smallville fan; 10-20-2013 at 05:41 PM.
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Old 10-20-2013, 07:11 PM   #25
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Default Re: "Joyless" ?

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Most of these books don't pertain to the origin


Quote:
Originally Posted by smallville fan View Post
What I meant was if you don't like the way in which Goyer wanted to tell it, don't bother investing in the sequel.

I liked Superman Earth One. Does anyone have a problem with that?
I probably don't have a problem, but you might. Unless it's an outlier, you have pretty bad taste in Superman stories.

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Last edited by Llama_Shepherd; 10-20-2013 at 07:16 PM.
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