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Old 10-24-2013, 04:43 PM   #376
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 4

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At some point if no one is showing any sign of ever getting tired or being affected by any of the hits being taken, it looses its entertainment value to me. With the Woverine/Deathstrike fight, it was interesting to see what would happen since they keep healing with every hit.

SuckerPunch suffered from this same issue. Neither Zod, nor Superman had a scratch on them. I understand that they're "super", but wouldn't two superpowered being hitting each other be the equivalent of two humans hitting each other? You'd still bruise and bleed.

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Old 10-24-2013, 04:45 PM   #377
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Who's saying that?
Hmm... maybe I'm missing more...

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Old 10-24-2013, 04:56 PM   #378
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No, he can help more innocent people working outside of the law and "his own way" that's why he chose this and not "a firefighter".

This is your rationalization as to why his motivations are grounded in hating and not helping?
I agree with Anita on this. Obviously Bruce's motivation is to a large extent to help people, but I think the reason he took the very odd path he did is in part very personal and very cathartic, his decision certainly wasn't based 100% on pragmatism. I think he created this totemistic and pseudo-monastic lifestyle for himself to channel all of his twisted up emotions into an outlet that allows him, personally, to do the most possible good. Realistically, with the resources of Wayne Enterprises at his disposal he'd be able to do just as much good without ever putting on a costume or physically getting involved with what's going on, but doing so fulfills an almost spiritual need in him that, when fulfilled, allows him to do the bets possible job he can.

At least, that's the take on it I find most interesting and believable. Batman choosing to be Batman entirely because he sees it as the most practical way to fix Gotham makes him seem, to me, like a boring *******. Batman choosing to be Batman as a very primal, very old world kind of almost religious salvation that allows him to be the best man he can be by cloaking himself in and surrendering himself completely to the image and idea of something greater than a man, that's a guy I like. That's a guy I can get into and feel for.

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Old 10-24-2013, 05:06 PM   #379
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http://movies.cosmicbooknews.com/con...t-setting-more

interesting

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Old 10-24-2013, 05:07 PM   #380
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Yeah, but that moment was still something that could've been stopped by Superman or any other superhero with the power to do so in his position. It's not like some building tumbling down while he's in another part of the city fighting Zod or Tony being busy taking that missile into space while there were aliens still attack elsewhere in New York.
In this instance he was just as incapacitated as stark was in his. You just refuse to accept this. Catching a building? Superman could barely hold an oil rig up(far easier).
But like I said, things have been blurred due to the tradition.
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At some point if no one is showing any sign of ever getting tired or being affected by any of the hits being taken, it looses its entertainment value to me. With the Woverine/Deathstrike fight, it was interesting to see what would happen since they keep healing with every hit.
Here is where you lose me. after 2 hours logan and ds would have been no worse for wear and we all knew it, we just wanted to see how it would be resolved. After 2 minutes superman would out cold and more people(that I, but apparently not the rest of the audience worried about) were going to die some more. Just seems like we have different trigger for tension. Which is why I always suggest it boils down to people speaking for themselves, especially when discussing why a film doesn't work.

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Just things I've read and here and there. I personally found this version of the character to be overall boring and and not as smart as I would've liked him to be.
I feel the same about other character from time to time(cap/bats), I can relate I guess.

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Old 10-24-2013, 05:07 PM   #381
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SuckerPunch suffered from this same issue. Neither Zod, nor Superman had a scratch on them. I understand that they're "super", but wouldn't two superpowered being hitting each other be the equivalent of two humans hitting each other? You'd still bruise and bleed.
I haven't bothered to see Sucker Punch yet. But, yeah that's how I pretty much view it. A regular person wouldn't do damage to Superman or Zod much like a baby couldn't hurt an adult. But, when two adults go at it, there would be some damage.

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Old 10-24-2013, 05:10 PM   #382
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Realistically, with the resources of Wayne Enterprises at his disposal he'd be able to do just as much good without ever putting on a costume or physically getting involved with what's going on, but doing so fulfills an almost spiritual need in him that, when fulfilled, allows him to do the bets possible job he can.
I understand what she's trying to say as well. The thing is, working within the law, he wouldn't be able to keep as many innocents out of harm's way; and that's precisely the type of good he's trying to accomplish. As a police officer, you're forced to adhere to certain rules and regulations; you can't just come and go as you please. Even if you suspect that someone's life may be in danger, you are not allowed to intervene unless you've obtained the necessary paperwork and such. And, even though that's a system that works to an extent, lives are still lost in the process of waiting. Batman would rather not work under such a handicap.

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Old 10-24-2013, 05:11 PM   #383
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 4

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SuckerPunch suffered from this same issue. Neither Zod, nor Superman had a scratch on them. I understand that they're "super", but wouldn't two superpowered being hitting each other be the equivalent of two humans hitting each other? You'd still bruise and bleed.
Depends how realistic the fight was and more importantly it would boil down to the relation between supermans invulnerability and his impact strength.

-for all we know this could be the superman with the arua based invulnerability
-for all we know this could be the superman with the healing factor
...etc

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Old 10-24-2013, 05:20 PM   #384
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 4

I always thought the "aura" thing was a little silly and excessive (as well as a way to explain to pedantic fans why his costume doesn't get shredded), even for a character like Superman. If he has a healing factor, then I guess it protects him from dust and debris from getting on his face/costume, or messing up his hair. lol.

Just a funny observation that after all that pummeling, being knocked through buildings, etc... they both look fresh as a daisy.

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Old 10-24-2013, 05:21 PM   #385
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I understand what she's trying to say as well. The thing is, working within the law, he wouldn't be able to keep as many innocents out of harm's way; and that's precisely the type of good he's trying to accomplish. As a police officer, you're forced to adhere to certain rules and regulations; you can't just come and go as you please. Even if you suspect that someone's life may be in danger, you are not allowed to intervene unless you've obtained the necessary paperwork and such. And, even though that's a system that works to an extent, lives are still lost in the process of waiting. Batman would rather not work under such a handicap.
I wasn't really thinking of him becoming a cop, I was thinking of what he could do simply with the political and economic influence of Wayne Enterprises. Wether it be 100% legal or a little bit off the books, he could in theory run a huge operation that would do just as much good as he does as Batman without ever getting into a bat suit or literally fighting crime.

Also, I want to point out that the reason the police have those kinds of limitations is as a measure to prevent abuse of power. That's where the ******* part of Batman being Batman for totally practical reasons makes him seem like a boring ******* comes from. If the only reason he's Batman is because he thinks working outside of the law is just straight up better, that's basically saying that checks against people in power abusing that power aren't important and it's okay for the rich and powerful to do whatever they want. I'd probably trust Bruce Wayne's judgement if he were real, but in general I'm not okay with that notion. To me, his need to be Batman should be, in part, a very personal and almost spiritual one. And there also needs to be an emphasis that he understands that we need cops more than vigilantes and that a formal criminal justice system with rules and restraints should be the default, and he's just helping out.

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Old 10-24-2013, 05:21 PM   #386
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I only bring up the Donner films because it actually showed what people have suggested; Superman actively showing that he cares for the safety of the people around him rather than just sticking to simply stopping the bad guy with some sort of tunnel vision that the writers gave him during the fight. You can look at Raimi's Spider-Man 2 or Avengers for similar situations. And I don't hold the Donner films in a high regard.
The Donner films defied logic to achieve this goal. The trio literally observed as he saved people whilst fighting him one on one and then just stopped when he left? Something similar happened in part 4.
Argues something about fan priorities, especially in a post 2005 age
Then returns furthered this preconception but having a superman costumed and literally doing nothing but saving folks during his active duty. I'm not surprised that some people have met this "different" direction with shock/outrage/confusion or just dismay.
The instance in which superman does fail, he just goes up and reverses time. This stuff really sticks with people.

Spiderman 2 was full of convenience in doing so, I mean where did doc ock wonder off too whilst spidey occupied himself with train for 4 minutes(approx)? Easy for spidey to catch people tossed in his path and not perhaps in the opposite path with his web powers...and of course ultimately, what exactly happens if spiderman stops pursuing the villain in the context of that conflict? Imminent global decimation that no other being will be able to even approach resolving...

Avengers as many have asserted is a team movie with drone like villains that circle the blocks for a given time even with their space crafts, I digress. Ask yourself this question, could the team have done more to save more people?
If you are satisfied that they did their best whilst overlooking acceptable losses I see no reason why that can't apply here. I mean why not have stark join in on the life saving, he seems more qualified given his sensors.
All forgiven because we are boldly told that the heroes are doing it for the little guy and without that basic correlation we are left to assume what: That superman literally stopped caring about what he's been obsessively caring about for the past 20 years and is now only intent on beating the bad guy? As opposed to he still cares but is literally incapacitated and perhaps thinking of the 4 billion other kids that will most likely die if he gives zod the opening he's looking for.

Like I've been saying, context. Would it have been a better experience had they written it differently? Possibly. Is it at all a betrayal of story or the character. I'd argue no. He does his best and uses his brain. It doesn't take much brains to know what the right play was. When he stops doing his best, I'll personally agree with the opposition, til then I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree.

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Old 10-24-2013, 05:21 PM   #387
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No, he can help more innocent people working outside of the law and "his own way" that's why he chose this and not "a firefighter".

This is your rationalization as to why his motivations are grounded in hating and not helping?
Yeah, waging essentially a one-man war against crime outside of the law sure is maximizing his positive influence.

Bruce is not stupid. If all he wanted was to help as many innocent people as he could, he'd use his extraordinary moral will in politics. He's a Wayne and already rich - nobody could beat his campaign funds or bribe him into anything. Beating criminals up to make them fear you is probably the most inefficient way to go about it. You have to start from the system. You have to MAKE the laws, not flaunt your ability to disregard them.

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I agree with Anita on this. Obviously Bruce's motivation is to a large extent to help people, but I think the reason he took the very odd path he did is in part very personal and very cathartic, his decision certainly wasn't based 100% on pragmatism. I think he created this totemistic and pseudo-monastic lifestyle for himself to channel all of his twisted up emotions into an outlet that allows him, personally, to do the most possible good. Realistically, with the resources of Wayne Enterprises at his disposal he'd be able to do just as much good without ever putting on a costume or physically getting involved with what's going on, but doing so fulfills an almost spiritual need in him that, when fulfilled, allows him to do the bets possible job he can.

At least, that's the take on it I find most interesting and believable. Batman choosing to be Batman entirely because he sees it as the most practical way to fix Gotham makes him seem, to me, like a boring *******. Batman choosing to be Batman as a very primal, very old world kind of almost religious salvation that allows him to be the best man he can be by cloaking himself in and surrendering himself completely to the image and idea of something greater than a man, that's a guy I like. That's a guy I can get into and feel for.
Absolutely. I seriously cannot believe we are having this back-and-forth.

I am a fan of Batman because he turned his pain into a positive outlet. Instead of using his Wayne wealth to fund a self-destructive drug-and-partying habit due to his childhood trauma, he is busting his ass night after night trying to make a difference. He doesn't have to do it. He's no different from anyone else, he has no super powers. He chooses to.

Yes, there are more healthy and productive ways to go about eliminating crime, but being Batman is essentially a positive and productive outlet for his anger. If he has it, might as well do some good with it.

More importantly, if he does not operate out of anger, his moral will and refusal to kill is not nearly as impressive. What's the big deal with not killing if he just wants to help people? What's the big deal with not killing if he isn't angry at criminals anyway? The fact that he is so close to the brink almost all the time but refuses to go over, that's why he's so special.

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Old 10-24-2013, 05:31 PM   #388
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We're told "Batman Vs. Superman" is confirmed as the title..
Ugh, no. That'll just give them more excuses to make the whole thing like the Supes vs Zod fight, except it'll be Batman instead of Zod which automatically makes the whole thing stupider. Batman has no prayer against a Superman going full tilt.

I really hope that's not true. If it turns out to be, I bet Chris Nolan gave it a lookover and was like, "Yup, I'm outta here."

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Old 10-24-2013, 05:33 PM   #389
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Yeah, waging essentially a one-man war against crime outside of the law sure is maximizing his positive influence.
If you are suggesting Bruce Wayne doesn't do that to the best of his ability you must be joking.
For starters, notice the party wayne had for dent and why he had it. He no doubts donates and supports this that and the next thing by the bucket loads.
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Bruce is not stupid. If all he wanted was to help as many innocent people as he could, he'd use his extraordinary moral will in politics. He's a Wayne and already rich - nobody could beat his campaign funds or bribe him into anything. Beating criminals up to make them fear you is probably the most inefficient way to go about it. You have to start from the system. You have to MAKE the laws, not flaunt your ability to disregard them.
Secondly, you have to make the laws? Yea maybe in 60BC Rome, but then again even Ceaser had a senate vote to deal with. The world isn't a dictatorship. Batman is smart enough to know that.

For example what would happen if Bruce became highest ranking police officer(gordan)He can't be bribed or corrupted, he also can't enter a home without a warrant or succumb to due process, he also can't wear a mask and would be sued by everyone he put hands on...among other things. No, sorry but batman does a great deal more good than any good cop can due to his own rules.

DKR made the point that batman as a fascist solider serving his garbage city. It was a bit much but it's a milestone in the mythology.

Question;
I see his conception as a combination of things, there was no doubt a level of primal revenge instilled but that only get him to where he was going. Sort of like him dropping the gun in the river and later getting past killing. Not sure if you follow that arrow show but he was one thing at the start now he's literally all about helping the city and no killing etc.
When batman is in a hole and bane is destroying gotham, what I take away is batman want's to save his city as only batman can, more than hate bad guys. I see the latter in my avy.

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Old 10-24-2013, 05:35 PM   #390
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If you are suggesting Bruce Wayne doesn't do that to the best of his ability must be joking.
For starters, notice the party wayne had for dent and why he had it. He no doubts donates and supports this that and the next thing by the bucket loads.

Secondly, you have to make the laws? Yea maybe in 60BC Rome, but then again even Ceaser had a senate vote to deal with. Sorry but the world isn't a dictatorship. Batman is smart enough to know that.

For example what would happen if Bruce became highest ranking police officer(gordan)He can't be bribed or corrupted, he also can't enter a home without a warrant or succumb to due process, he also can't wear a mask and would be sued by everyone he put hands on...among other things. No sorry batman does a great deal more good than any good cop can due to his own rules.

DKR made the point that batman as a fascist solider serving his garbage city. It was a bit much but it's a milestone in the mythology.
Which is why the notion that Batman is Batman simply because it's the most practical and ideal way to fight crime is a bad one. If you go by that reasoning it's an endorsement of fascism.

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Old 10-24-2013, 05:39 PM   #391
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I find it more interesting that the url for cosmicbooknews hasn't been blocked on this site yet.

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Old 10-24-2013, 05:42 PM   #392
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I always thought the "aura" thing was a little silly and excessive (as well as a way to explain to pedantic fans why his costume doesn't get shredded), even for a character like Superman. If he has a healing factor, then I guess it protects him from dust and debris from getting on his face/costume, or messing up his hair. lol.

Just a funny observation that after all that pummeling, being knocked through buildings, etc... they both look fresh as a daisy.
Lots of "silly" things come with superman. As I've observed fans will pick and choose what's essential for their superman. Logic be damned.

As for the powers, my point is as such, we don't know the inner workings, only the traditions, even donner had lack of damage with zod. I personally hope this changes if they get in to doomsday territory.

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Old 10-24-2013, 05:42 PM   #393
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There next exclusive will be their source telling them Batman and Superman will appear in Batman VS Superman.

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Old 10-24-2013, 05:47 PM   #394
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Which is why the notion that Batman is Batman simply because it's the most practical and ideal way to fight crime is a bad one. If you go by that reasoning it's an endorsement of fascism.
I have no problem with that endorsement.
I happen to that's part of the line crossed when these folks become crime fighting vigilantes and for me that's an important part of the debate. I've seen J Jonah make and win his argument once or twice.

As for bruce wayne wanting to be in the mud with his magnifying glass and tweezers as opposed to doing his work with influence and money alone, I suppose he doesn't live a world where the latter is more effective than the former. I find that truth to be very engaging.

I think when one looks to why Jon Blake takes up the mantle at the end of tdkr, the rational argues the point.
Granted blake and early wayne aren't the same

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Old 10-24-2013, 05:48 PM   #395
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Isn't cosmic book news the same site who said that Cranston would be announced as lex after the breaking bad finale? I'm still holding out hope that the title won't be "batman vs. superman".

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Old 10-24-2013, 05:50 PM   #396
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Lots of "silly" things come with superman. As I've observed fans will pick and choose what's essential for their superman. Logic be damned.
It's a question of "why" though, the "aura" was invented so fanboys would stop sending letter complaining and asking why Supes costume never got shredded (later retconned that his suit was made from his kryptonian baby blanket or whatever). It's the same deal with the "hypnotic" Clark Kent glasses. Goofy, stuff to placate pedantic fanboys who have trouble accepting the ridiculous nature of the character in the first place.

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As for the powers, my point is as such, we don't know the inner workings, only the traditions, even donner had lack of damage with zod. I personally hope this changes if they get in to doomsday territory.
Agreed. Seeing the hero get beaten up/run down a bit at least let's us know that the struggle is intense/stakes are pretty high, etc...

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Old 10-24-2013, 05:54 PM   #397
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If you are suggesting Bruce Wayne doesn't do that to the best of his ability must be joking.
For starters, notice the party wayne had for dent and why he had it. He no doubts donates and supports this that and the next thing by the bucket loads.
But he doesn't do JUST that. He's Batman too. Most of his life is devoted to being Batman. He could do a lot more, and with a lot less mess, if he was just a Wayne. Besides, most of TDK's plot is proving why Batman's existence is actually a terrible idea.

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Secondly, you have to make the laws? Yea maybe in 60BC Rome, but then again even Ceaser had a senate vote to deal with. Sorry but the world isn't a dictatorship. Batman is smart enough to know that.

For example what would happen if Bruce became highest ranking police officer(gordan)He can't be bribed or corrupted, he also can't enter a home without a warrant or succumb to due process, he also can't wear a mask and would be sued by everyone he put hands on...among other things. No sorry batman does a great deal more good than any good cop can due to his own rules.

DKR made the point that batman as a fascist solider serving his garbage city. It was a bit much but it's a milestone in the mythology.
Where I live, a good part of the city was essentially gang-infested skid row 20-30 years ago. It's now gentrified and very safe, a place for white-collar workers to raise a family. A single vigilante (even with someone of Batman's ability) couldn't do that. It's the police and politicians making laws to make it economically viable. That's what happens in the real world. You have to inspire the people in the system to work together to enact real change. Batman inspires but he is also controversial, precisely because he works outside the law. It's not a clean and simple sort of inspiration.

And politicians CAN enact change. Why do you think Cory Booker is so famous, even when he was a mere mayor? It's because he enthusiastically took on the cesspool known as Newark, New Jersey, and in his first term, the city's murder rate was the lowest it's been in over 40 years.

To be fair, in many of the most renowned Batman stories (Year One, Long Halloween, and of course BB and TDK), Batman's main objective is getting rid of mob corruption so that honest cops and politicians can do their job properly. He doesn't count himself as one of them, but he is trying to help in a way he feels only he can.

And funny you mention DKR, because if there isn't any better "proof" that Batman is operating mainly out of anger, I'm not sure what else you need.

I'm not saying that Batman isn't doing good. He is. But there's a reason why Bruce chose his brand of vigilantism over all the other options available to him. And that reason is anger.

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Old 10-24-2013, 05:56 PM   #398
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 4

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I have no problem with that endorsement.
I happen to that's part of the line crossed when these folks become crime fighting vigilantes and for me that's an important part of the debate. I've seen J Jonah make and win his argument once or twice.
And if Batman stories made the point that Batman isn't a hero and we're not supposed to root for him, I'd agree with you. But they don't. Not usually, anyway.

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As for bruce wayne wanting to be in the mud with his magnifying glass and tweezers as opposed to doing his work with influence and money alone, I suppose he doesn't live a world where the latter is more effective than the former. I find that truth to be very engaging.
But so far it hasn't been demonstrated that it is a truth.

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Old 10-24-2013, 06:01 PM   #399
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 4

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In this instance he was just as incapacitated as stark was in his. You just refuse to accept this. Catching a building? Superman could barely hold an oil rig up(far easier).
But like I said, things have been blurred due to the tradition.
I think you misread what I'm saying. He wasn't incapacitated or busy doing anything in that moment for him to not be able to prevent that explosion. Zod kicks the truck towards him and he easily could've stopped it. Instead he just hops over it and lets it crash into the building behind him.

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Here is where you lose me. after 2 hours logan and ds would have been no worse for wear and we all knew it, we just wanted to see how it would be resolved. After 2 minutes superman would out cold and more people(that I, but apparently not the rest of the audience worried about) were going to die some more. Just seems like we have different trigger for tension. Which is why I always suggest it boils down to people speaking for themselves, especially when discussing why a film doesn't work.
The difference is Zod and Superman didn't seem to be hurting each other at all, thus it got boring to me. With Wolverine and Deathstrike, they clearing are hurting each other, especially Wolverine since he was losing. Then, he got lucky in being able to kill her.

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I feel the same about other character from time to time(cap/bats), I can relate I guess.
Alright.

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The Donner films defied logic to achieve this goal. The trio literally observed as he saved people whilst fighting him one on one and then just stopped when he left? Something similar happened in part 4.
Argues something about fan priorities, especially in a post 2005 age
Then returns furthered this preconception but having a superman costumed and literally doing nothing but saving folks during his active duty. I'm not surprised that some people have met this "different" direction with shock/outrage/confusion or just dismay.
The instance in which superman does fail, he just goes up and reverses time. This stuff really sticks with people.

Spiderman 2 was full of convenience in doing so, I mean where did doc ock wonder off too whilst spidey occupied himself with train for 4 minutes(approx)? Easy for spidey to catch people tossed in his path and not perhaps in the opposite path with his web powers...and of course ultimately, what exactly happens if spiderman stops pursuing the villain in the context of that conflict? Imminent global decimation that no other being will be able to even approach resolving...

Avengers as many have asserted is a team movie with drone like villains that circle the blocks for a given time even with their space crafts, I digress. Ask yourself this question, could the team have done more to save more people?
If you are satisfied that they did their best whilst overlooking acceptable losses I see no reason why that can't apply here. I mean why not have stark join in on the life saving, he seems more qualified given his sensors.
All forgiven because we are boldly told that the heroes are doing it for the little guy and without that basic correlation we are left to assume what: That superman literally stopped caring about what he's been obsessively caring about for the past 20 years and is now only intent on beating the bad guy? As opposed to he still cares but is literally incapacitated and perhaps thinking of the 4 billion other kids that will most likely die if he give zod the opening he's looking for.

Like I've been saying, context. Would it have been a better experience had the written it differently? Possibly. Is it at all a betrayal of story or the character. I'd argue no. He does his best and uses his brain. It doesn't take much brains to know what the right play was. When he stops doing his best, I'll personally agree with the opposition, til then I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree.
Not to me. Pretty much at that point, Donner's Zod had won. He had control of the US government and I guess, technically the world. The only thing in his way was making sure the son of Jor-El was out of the picture for good. So, sticking around killing people isn't going to achieve much at the moment.

Spidey took the time to make sure those people didn't die. If he had the same tunnel vision as Superman was given in MOS, he would've kept going after Doc Ock. Pretty much the same with Avengers. Thus, people have a problem with how much Superman didn't seem to care about his surrounds and the people within it. So, a moment or two where he simply tries would've changed people's view on this version of the character. He doesn't have to succeed, especially given his situation. He's still one man, no matter how super he may be.

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Old 10-24-2013, 06:03 PM   #400
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 4

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right back at you dude ! You hit the nail on the head, that
while Superman has god-like power, he isn't infallible.

Maybe Snyder will deal with this debate by having Batman give Supes a big scolding in the upcoming film.

I was reading that 52 JL origins the other day, and thinking that
Wonder Woman (particularly the neck breaking, ass kicking, stick a sword in Darkseid's eye Wonder Woman we've seen recently) would probably be all okay not only with Supes killing Zod, but she'd look at the carnage and
say something like.......

"But in doing those things you saved the world didn't you ? Well then, the needs of the many outweighed the needs of the few. You did what you had to do."

Or something like that (yes, I know I quoted Spock), but WW has been getting much more badass in recent years, hope that comes out when she finally shows up in the films.

What's my point, I don't know really. Just that if Wonder Woman wouldn't give Supes such a tough time, maybe nobody else should.

Yes, she's a fictional character, so my argument isn't particularly strong, but anyway.....

...yeah, bring on the new batmobile !

Cheers.

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