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Old 10-22-2013, 01:13 AM   #26
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 4

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Xmen Origins and First Class are prequels. They could do it that way.

Or they could do it like Batman '89 with the bulk of the movies taking place after JLeague but with the origin in flashbacks.

Or they could do it with no origin at all (Do we ever need to see John Stewart get the ring?). The Incredible Hulk didn't have an origin story either (well actually they had it in the opening credits sequence).
Yeah. We certainly don't need to see their origins. But I think for everyone else it would be important in them connecting with the characters. I'm sure most people have heard of the Flash, but most don't really know or understand the character, letalone love the character. That's what a JL film would need to do for Flash, but also for like 5+ other characters.

Creating a perfect tapestry of all these characters that the mainstream may heard of but not really know of is a hell of a task. The casting alone would be a huge task, letting the script let each character shine, and then folding it around another big villain battle. Not too mention the massive budget it would require. It's just a gargantuan project, that I honestly think WB would find far too risky. Perhaps it can be done. But that's not to say that Marvel's gradual world-building approach is much better, and cuts alot of risk. I dunno, depends how desperate WB is I guess.

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Old 10-22-2013, 01:17 AM   #27
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 4

But The Avengers was able to do it.

Tons of people saw the Avengers who never saw Iron Man. They came away from the Avengers being interested in Iron Man, despite not knowing his origin, and went to Iron Man 3, thus why Iron Man 3 did so well.

Can't the same be done with the Flash?

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Old 10-22-2013, 01:20 AM   #28
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 4

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I believe MCU was doing what people call world building, each character is part of a much bigger world, much like the comics do. The Avengers were a coming together of Heroes
Right. But from a character standpoint, I don't think it was 'necessary'.

You can watch The Avengers and thoroughly enjoy it without having seen any of the prior movies, which many people did.

---

Regarding box office success,

The reason The Avengers did well was because it was a new exciting concept. I'm not sure that same concept will generate excitement again when DC does it, especially since the excitement of Batman and Superman meeting will already be used on Batman vs Superman.

With the Avengers, it's different. Nobody knew these characters existed (save for the Hulk), and the solo movies generated awareness so that when they show them all coming together, people know that they're bringing characters from different properties together, thus communicating that this is a brand new kind of movie.

With Justice League, even if people don't know the details about these characters, they know that WW is iconic, as is the Flash; heck, even Aquaman (the guy people always make fun of). Instead, what might generate interest is a handful of iconic characters all being brought to life on the big screen for the first time in one movie.

If anything, introducing Flash and WW before a JL movie might take away from some of its excitement (unless the JL movie gives us additional new characters like Aquaman, MMH, John Stewart, etc).

Avengers 2 also seems to be aware of this fact. It's not riding on the excitement of being a character team up movie. The movie itself will give something you've never seen before with new characters making their debut (Scarlett Witch, Quiksilver).


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Old 10-22-2013, 01:25 AM   #29
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 4

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But The Avengers was able to do it.

Tons of people saw the Avengers who never saw Iron Man. They came away from the Avengers being interested in Iron Man, despite not knowing his origin, and went to Iron Man 3, thus why Iron Man 3 did so well.

Can't the same be done with the Flash?
Totally. Assuming you're right and a huge amount of people hadn't seen any of the previous Marvel films leading into the Avengers, that doesn't mean that Disney/Marvel weren't much more confident with the characters already having already produced their solo films. It would have made the project so much more manageable and conceptualized having already have a whole film or two with the characters to gauge their performances and where to take them. WB would not have that and they would just have to pray they knock it out of the park for 5+ new characters straight off the bat.

There's just so much more room for error there. I'm not saying it can't be done. It's just that we all want it to be done well. It's a Justice League film, it better be the best film we ever see!!

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Old 10-22-2013, 01:25 AM   #30
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 4

Personally, I just think that there's a lot of potential in doing origin stories/solos for some of the heroes within the Justice League, mainly because of the fact that most of these heroes have NEVER appeared on the big screen before.

And heck, if they wanted to make things interesting, they could even do someone's origin within the Justice League film itself, like Hal Jordon's one, making it a new experience on the story that was poorly told in Ryan Reynolds' film. I mean it's been done before within the "New Frontier" story.

And honestly, I think the whole "solo" film route before the big group ensemble works for reasons like how it establishes the character to the audiences and fans.

For those that saw all of Phase 1 before heading into "The Avengers", both Evans, Hemsworth, and Scarlett were established and accepted by people in the roles that they were playing, thus it made it more exciting to see these diverse characters meet for the first time because a lot of people grew attached to these characters prior before they all met each other.

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Old 10-22-2013, 01:27 AM   #31
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 4

Honestly from my experience at that time, the big draw of the Avengers for everyday folk was Iron Man/RDJ. (When they came out of it, it was all Hulk though )

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Old 10-22-2013, 01:33 AM   #32
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 4

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Totally. Assuming you're right and a huge amount of people hadn't seen any of the previous Marvel films leading into the Avengers, that doesn't mean that Disney/Marvel weren't much more confident with the characters already having already produced their solo films. It would have made the project so much more manageable and conceptualized having already have a whole film or two with the characters to gauge their performances and where to take them. WB would not have that and they would just have to pray they knock it out of the park for 5+ new characters straight off the bat.

There's just so much more room for error there. I'm not saying it can't be done. It's just that we all want it to be done well. It's a Justice League film, it better be the best film we ever see!!
True. If JL fails, WW, Flash, and GL franchises might never get off the ground.

However, the flipside is true as well. If Flash and WW fail....will they just not bring them into JLeague? Will there even be a JLeague? (a movie about Batman/Superman meeting a bunch of characters that the public has already rejected?)

Failing with Green Lantern was a setback afterall, to the point that many don't think Hal should be in the Jleague movie.

Instead of needing 4 competent directors, they'd only need 1. (whether or not you think Snyder is the man for the job is another issue entirely...)


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Old 10-22-2013, 01:37 AM   #33
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 4

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True. If JL fails, WW, Flash, and GL franchises might never get off the ground.

However, the flipside is true as well. If Flash and WW fail....will they just not bring them into JLeague? Will there even be a JLeague?

Failing with Green Lantern was a setback afterall, to the point that many don't think Hal should be in the Jleague movie.

Instead of needing 4 competent directors, they'd only need 1. (whether or not you think Snyder is the man for the job is another issue entirely...)
Yeah. Totally agree. Although at least you could say that GL failing separately at least spared us of that happening in a JL film. I hope WB learnt alot from that film process.

It's the same with Incredible Hulk, it not performing let Disney/Marvel re-evaluate what to do with the character in Avengers. At least if the individual properties fail by themselves WB can hit the kill switch before trying to work them into a JL film. We are forever spared of more Ryan Reynolds GL thank god.

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Old 10-22-2013, 01:49 AM   #34
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 4

Fair enough. It's always hard to figure out which is the best course to take.

However, I do imagine that Green Lantern debuting under Snyder's direction, even with Reynolds, would have been amazing (given how he was able to portray Superman in MOS). Just imagine what Oa would have been like, if we compare it to Krypton in MOS.

This is why I think WB will stick with only the three Snyder movies (MOS, WF, and JL, assuming WF doesn't tank) to start off their universe and debut their characters. They've found someone who works, and they believe in Snyder's ability to make these heroes effing cool and well-realized (opposed to having another Campbell situation), perhaps enough to generate interest for future solo franchises.


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Old 10-22-2013, 01:51 AM   #35
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 4

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Fair enough. It's always hard to figure out which is the best course to take.

However, I do imagine that Green Lantern debuting under Snyder's direction, even with Reynolds, would have been amazing (given how he was able to portray Superman in MOS). Just imagine what Oa would have been like, if we compare it to Krypton in MOS.

This is why I think WB will stick with three Snyder for JL (assuming BvsS doesn't completely tank). They believe in Snyder's ability to make these heroes effing cool and well-realized (opposed to another Campbell).
Yep. You can criticize his storytelling, but Snyder definitely understands what makes the characters cool.

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Old 10-22-2013, 02:07 AM   #36
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 4

Honestly, if we could just give Snyder and Goyer another writer to help take on the story, one that's very competent and knows how to balance between the plot, character development, and action scenes, then we'd be much better off.

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Old 10-22-2013, 02:16 AM   #37
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 4

Actually I'd say the directing was definitely the weakest part of MOS, not the story, which is a shame, because Snyder does so much right.

Certain character interactions are done extremely well (better than he's ever done in any movie), and certain scenes are exactly as ambitious as they should be (flying scenes, etc) and well-executed at that. However, the overall pacing, the tone of certain scenes, not knowing what to cut or leave in (some subpar cg scenes in particular), etc, is all on Snyder.

(Pacing being the number one killer. The same problem with 300, Watchmen, Sucker Punch, and Man of Steel)

I think Snyder is a great storyteller in a scene itself, but not so much a great storyteller when it comes to the movie as a whole. (Sort of similar to Peter Jackson in that way...). Or at least their tastes are different than mind in that regard.

For the record, I really liked Man of Steel. It's just easy for me to see what would have made me like it so much more.


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Old 10-22-2013, 02:39 AM   #38
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 4

on wondy,

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Old 10-22-2013, 03:55 AM   #39
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 4

Well, on a brighter side, we should hopefully have a good idea of who the main cast members (and characters) are for the film come this December since they supposedly start principal photography in February 2014.

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Old 10-22-2013, 04:14 AM   #40
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 4

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Honestly, if I had things my way, we'd be getting this Superman film with Batman in 2015, the Flash and Wonder Woman films in 2016, and the Justice League film in 2017.
That would be the best "Phase 1"

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Yeah I reckon a solo WW film is best follow BvS and before JL. The poor lady deserves it!! She's waited long enough! Plus we all know how great it would be.

She is a hard character to get right though. And I think alot of that has to do with her Greek mythology underpinnings. I'm not sure if that ages her when trying to do a modern superhero take or what. But great writers have really struggled with her. I can't even name the quintessential WW story. I'm hoping Grant Morrison's Wonder Woman Earth One will finally be the 'ahhh' moment for everyone (including WB's film-makers).
I wouldn't want Batman/Superman to suddenly become a Trinity film. A solo film would be better. I'm also hoping that Morrison's Wonder Woman Earth One would be that "ahhh" moment. That's also the time I decided that I would ever buy a Wonder Woman comic too.

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Old 10-22-2013, 04:26 AM   #41
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 4

To go from a Solo Superman film to a Superman/Batman film to a Trinity film makes one head hurt when thinking about all of the changes.lol

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Old 10-22-2013, 05:28 AM   #42
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 4

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But The Avengers was able to do it.

Tons of people saw the Avengers who never saw Iron Man. They came away from the Avengers being interested in Iron Man, despite not knowing his origin, and went to Iron Man 3, thus why Iron Man 3 did so well.

Can't the same be done with the Flash?

With you buddy ! I enjoyed Avengers, but didn't see Captain America
until way afterwards, didn't make any difference (and hell, I saw Iron
Man 2 and wished I hadn't, yet I still was able to work out who
Black Widow was ).

I reckon they should just introduce the flash (Wally West)
and save Barry Allen for a Flash movie that has all three flashes
Barry, Wally and Jay Garrick (and have Barry sacrifice himself, in a similar
way he did back in 1985).

As for GL, sever all ties with the Reynolds movie, and start with John Stewart, just have him show up with the ring, no mask, and be a badass.
Denzel Washington would be a great John Stewart, but probably a bit
old. Jamie Foxx could have done it, if he wasn't in Spider man.

Anyway, I say go straight to JL, pull out Darkseid, have him try to blow up Earth, and then have our heroes kick seven kinds of **** out of him !
Credits roll, audience cheers, a billion in the bank. We all go home happy.

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Old 10-22-2013, 05:28 AM   #43
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To go from a Solo Superman film to a Superman/Batman film to a Trinity film makes one head hurt when thinking about all of the changes.lol
Let's just wait and see what the deal is. The casting announcements will be the earliest indicator of what this film might be.

Let's just wait.

Personally, I'd be stunned if Diana shows up in this film. Stunned.

 
Old 10-22-2013, 05:36 AM   #44
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Let's just wait and see what the deal is. The casting announcements will be the earliest indicator of what this film might be.

Let's just wait.

Personally, I'd be stunned if Diana shows up in this film. Stunned.
Stunned..that's what Superman's S should also stand for in this new universe.lol

Whether you love it or hate it folks, Snyder's Superman franchise has left some of stunned, with a lot of the things that have been revealed as of late making us speechless.

From the way Zod was killed off in this film, to the announcement that Batman would be in this film, and then with Ben Affleck of all people being selected for the role...at this point, I don't think anything is off the table anymore.

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Old 10-22-2013, 05:41 AM   #45
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Zack Snyder has the madness in his personality to think that he can pull off anything so you're right, we have no flipping clue the direction of this film other than the ramifications from Man of Steel addressed in this film.

That's it.

 
Old 10-22-2013, 05:50 AM   #46
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 4

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Stunned..that's what Superman's S should also stand for in this new universe.lol

Whether you love it or hate it folks, Snyder's Superman franchise has left some of stunned, with a lot of the things that have been revealed as of late making us speechless.

From the way Zod was killed off in this film, to the announcement that Batman would be in this film, and then with Ben Affleck of all people being selected for the role...at this point, I don't think anything is off the table anymore.

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Old 10-22-2013, 06:01 AM   #47
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 4

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Zack Snyder has the madness in his personality to think that he can pull off anything so you're right, we have no flipping clue the direction of this film other than the ramifications from Man of Steel addressed in this film.

That's it.
Indeed; though I wonder how Snyder must be feeling under all of this pressure.

He's the FIRST Director in history that will be directing TWO Superman-related films completely, since neither Donner or Lester ever managed to completely film two Superman films.

And if that wasn't merit enough, he's now the FIRST Director in history as well that will be directing a film featuring the very first time that people will see a live action meeting between Superman and Batman.

He's not only responsible for just ONE of DC's biggest icons, he's responsible for TWO of them at the moment.

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Old 10-22-2013, 06:10 AM   #48
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 4

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Honestly, if we could just give Snyder and Goyer another writer to help take on the story, one that's very competent and knows how to balance between the plot, character development, and action scenes, then we'd be much better off.
Ben's already involved the production. It would be a shame if they didn't involve him off-camera as well.

While I believe that Zack can pull off Batman, though at the same time, I also believe that Nolan gave us the ultimate "general public" Batman. I think it would hard to make a Batman more sympathetic to general audiences, even if the character was ripped from the pages.

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Old 10-22-2013, 06:16 AM   #49
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 4

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Ben's already involved the production. It would be a shame if they didn't involve him off-camera as well.

While I believe that Zack can pull off Batman, though at the same time, I also believe that Nolan gave us the ultimate "general public" Batman. I think it would hard to make a Batman more sympathetic to general audiences, even if the character was ripped from the pages.
Agreed; I mean it was easy presenting a different Batman for Nolan and Christian to the general audiences and fans because the character hadn't really been explored as much as he should have been in past films.

And based on what little we've heard about this Batman, it seems like he'll be weary and very cynical about the world after all of the years that he's devoted in fighting crime, which isn't that far off from what Bruce was like at the beginning of TDKR, though rather than being an recluse, he'll be taking out his frustration on villains and still be active.

Honestly, the fan in me can't wait to see these two iconic characters interact, but until proven otherwise once and for all, there's a part of me that'll always worry on how these two characters will be able to coexist with each other in the same film without one of them being made to look bad at the expense of making the other one look great.

Heck, I'm still nervous as well that they'll go down the generic route of presenting a love triangle as well which would only make things even more complicated.

I'm just really hoping that Snyder and Goyer can really surprise us with something great.

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Old 10-22-2013, 06:25 AM   #50
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Indeed; though I wonder how Snyder must be feeling under all of this pressure.

He's the FIRST Director in history that will be directing TWO Superman-related films completely, since neither Donner or Lester ever managed to completely film two Superman films.

And if that wasn't merit enough, he's now the FIRST Director in history as well that will be directing a film featuring the very first time that people will see a live action meeting between Superman and Batman.

He's not only responsible for just ONE of DC's biggest icons, he's responsible for TWO of them at the moment.
Again, Snyder has a bit of madness to him so I'm betting that he's loving the pressure, loving the notion that he's shaping WB's DC cinematic universe for the foreseeable future.

The climax of Man of Steel is nothing compared to what we might get in this sequel...especially if Diana shows up in this thing.

 
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