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Old 10-28-2013, 01:55 AM   #751
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 4

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Originally Posted by herolee10 View Post
It just goes to show on how some just have unrealistic and impossible expectations for the character.

People say that he's not relevant and yet when they try to modernize him in some ways, they cry foul and say that they're dishonoring the mythology of the character.

People expect Superman to save everyone within a film and blame him if they think one single death occurs during his watch, and yet in the same time, people say that he's not interesting because he's too powerful.

Honestly, it's folks like that where I really could give a crap about their opinions regarding the character anymore other than how annoying and *****y they come off as in their unfounded rants.

It'sjustsomerandomguy's bit on that idea was so on point.

I was very pleased with what we got. Was it the Superman film I would have made, in tone or story? No. Not in the least. Does not mean I can't appreciate that it did what SR could not. Bring the Superman film franchise back to life, plus, BONUS, kickstart a DCCU.

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Old 10-28-2013, 01:58 AM   #752
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 4

Honestly, after we get a Justice League film, I wonder if at that point people will be able to answer as to whether Cavil's Superman was better for being part of the DCU of whether it would have been better if his superman was in a standalone franchise like Bale's Batman.

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Old 10-28-2013, 02:05 AM   #753
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 4

http://voicesfromkrypton.net/superma...-man-of-steel/

this article states it perfectly

“I think people love Superman the way they love religion,” Tucker begins. “They don’t know him as a character, like people don’t love Jesus as a character. They love him as a concept, what he represents, which is an all-powerful, kind, pure, salt-of-the-earth icon. But as a character, as a flesh and blood, living, breathing person with a personality… they don’t really get that from him. He’s always more of an icon – he represents an ideal rather than an individual. That means people put on him their own aspirations, their own wishes. Much like religion, they twist Superman to be what they want him to be. So if they want him to be all-powerful and able to push planets out of the way, if you don’t show that they feel cheated. And if he’s not perfect in every way, if you show him vulnerable… We had this problem on Justice League where every time something happened to Superman, there was a complaint. But he has to be vulnerable to something or there’s no story, there’s nothing to overcome. We didn’t do as well as we could have, but we got better at it.”

He continues, “There hasn’t been a Superman story written or movie made where someone didn’t say, ‘Yeah, but he’s Superman, so he should have been able to blah, blah, blah.’

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Old 10-28-2013, 02:16 AM   #754
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 4

Quote:
Originally Posted by roach View Post
http://voicesfromkrypton.net/superma...-man-of-steel/

this article states it perfectly

“I think people love Superman the way they love religion,” Tucker begins. “They don’t know him as a character, like people don’t love Jesus as a character. They love him as a concept, what he represents, which is an all-powerful, kind, pure, salt-of-the-earth icon. But as a character, as a flesh and blood, living, breathing person with a personality… they don’t really get that from him. He’s always more of an icon – he represents an ideal rather than an individual. That means people put on him their own aspirations, their own wishes. Much like religion, they twist Superman to be what they want him to be. So if they want him to be all-powerful and able to push planets out of the way, if you don’t show that they feel cheated. And if he’s not perfect in every way, if you show him vulnerable… We had this problem on Justice League where every time something happened to Superman, there was a complaint. But he has to be vulnerable to something or there’s no story, there’s nothing to overcome. We didn’t do as well as we could have, but we got better at it.”

He continues, “There hasn’t been a Superman story written or movie made where someone didn’t say, ‘Yeah, but he’s Superman, so he should have been able to blah, blah, blah.’
I've actually never understood why so many compare Superman to Christ when he has more things in common with Moses from the bible.

Both characters were placed within some traveling pod that led them from certain death. They were both children of two worlds, with Superman having Earth and Krypton while Moses had Israel and Egypt. They're both famous for having arch enemies that are conveniently bald (Lex and Ramses), etc.

In any case, I can see why some directors avoid tackling Superman because he's like the hardest comic book character to bring on screen since no matter what a person can do with the character, people will be pissed off about it and it's not exactly easy finding a actor who can commit to the role and make you believe that he's superman and not some actor trying to be superman.

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Old 10-28-2013, 02:34 AM   #755
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U know if general zod looking like a monster or an alien, I bet they would have no problem killing him. Lol.

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Old 10-28-2013, 02:37 AM   #756
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 4

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I've actually never understood why so many compare Superman to Christ when he has more things in common with Moses from the bible.

Both characters were placed within some traveling pod that led them from certain death. They were both children of two worlds, with Superman having Earth and Krypton while Moses had Israel and Egypt. They're both famous for having arch enemies that are conveniently bald (Lex and Ramses), etc.

In any case, I can see why some directors avoid tackling Superman because he's like the hardest comic book character to bring on screen since no matter what a person can do with the character, people will be pissed off about it and it's not exactly easy finding a actor who can commit to the role and make you believe that he's superman and not some actor trying to be superman.

The Christ thing has it's parallels as well in Superman. Sent by a "heavenly father" to be raised by simple folk on Earth. Both a "man" and a "divine being" at the same time. But when you get really precise about it, Superman is simply a modern archetype found in human cultures all over. I am an atheist, so I include Jesus of Nazareth in that general mix.

What is the story of Hercules/Herakles? Well, he is the son of Zeus Pan Helios, the all powerful god king of the ancient Greeks. He is the result of the union between Zeus, a divine figure and a human female, thus a representation of divine power incarnated in human form. Hercules/Herakles' life is filled with instances where his tasks, intended by him or not, benefit the Greeks and the world, by slaying the dangerous monsters of myth. Hercules is a beloved figure in myth and lauded for his heroism. While Zeus is respected and feared, our hero is accepted in a way by the wider culture that is more personal. Hercules even descends into the realm of the dead and comes back unscathed. In one version of his story, his mortal form is burned away so that his divine essence might ascend to live amongst the other gods in the pantheon of the Greco/Roman world.

What is the story of Thor? Thor is the offspring of Sky (Odin) and Earth (Jord) and as such is again an example of the union of the mundane and the divine. He is the god/hero much more embraced by the freemen and farmers that made up the Norse world. Again we see that the son of the high god is much more beloved by the common man than the Sky Father is.
Thor is seen as a protector of Earth and Asgard.

What is the story of Jesus? Jesus is the only begotten son of the God Yahweh/El worshipped by the ancient Israelites. Again, he is a figure that encompasses both Earth and the supernatural heavens. He is a figure that, though part of a Trinitarian view of a high monotheistic God, has come to be loved, where his "father" is more feared.

What is Supes story again if not following a certain pattern.

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Old 10-28-2013, 03:45 AM   #757
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 4

What if the villains are Brainiac and Lex Luthor? I think there's a good chance it could be those two.

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Old 10-28-2013, 03:47 AM   #758
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 4

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Love this gif. So badass.

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Old 10-28-2013, 03:50 AM   #759
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 4

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What if the villains are Brainiac and Lex Luthor? I think there's a good chance it could be those two.

I would be happy with little hints, or story elements that lead to Brainiac (my preferred take is that of the cybernetic Coluan scientist), but to leave him for a 3rd go round with Superman, in what ever form that takes.

With a story that most think is going to have Lex and Batman, and have Lois and Clark's evolving relationship, and possible themes and ideas picked up from the first film, Supes/Snyder/Goyer have enough on their plate.

But for a 3rd Cavil headed Superman film, especially one with perhaps Supergirl and a returned Faora-Ul, then Brainiac is the best fit. Hey, a guy can dream, can't he?

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Old 10-28-2013, 03:52 AM   #760
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 4

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Love this gif. So badass.

The gifs are driving me nuts since the Bluray release is still aways away. (sigh) Can't I get Supes to SPEED UP the rotation of the Earth, so I can have it in my hands that much faster?

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Old 10-28-2013, 04:00 AM   #761
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 4

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lol; maybe they should have modified that by having him saying something like he wouldn't kill a helpless opponent.lol
Isn't that exactly what he means by "I'm no executioner"? He won't kill people directly if they're not posing any danger to people, but in the Nolan films, he's fine with collateral damage during his missions. There's no point in feeling much for a villain who's moments away from killing a child or blowing up an entire city.

Yes, TAS Batman would have found some manner to batarang his way out of trouble, but Nolan put some skin in the game by making him more physically involved. Artistic choice, and by the way it went down, it was more or less accepted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by roach View Post
http://voicesfromkrypton.net/superma...-man-of-steel/

this article states it perfectly

“I think people love Superman the way they love religion,” Tucker begins. “They don’t know him as a character, like people don’t love Jesus as a character. They love him as a concept, what he represents, which is an all-powerful, kind, pure, salt-of-the-earth icon. But as a character, as a flesh and blood, living, breathing person with a personality… they don’t really get that from him. He’s always more of an icon – he represents an ideal rather than an individual. That means people put on him their own aspirations, their own wishes. Much like religion, they twist Superman to be what they want him to be. So if they want him to be all-powerful and able to push planets out of the way, if you don’t show that they feel cheated. And if he’s not perfect in every way, if you show him vulnerable… We had this problem on Justice League where every time something happened to Superman, there was a complaint. But he has to be vulnerable to something or there’s no story, there’s nothing to overcome. We didn’t do as well as we could have, but we got better at it.”

He continues, “There hasn’t been a Superman story written or movie made where someone didn’t say, ‘Yeah, but he’s Superman, so he should have been able to blah, blah, blah.’
Yes, I feel that way too.

There was some pushback here about Nolan's Batman killing Dent (although his first priority was saving James Jr) or shooting at Talia, but I think for the most part, people were more or less okay with it. Superman does not have that kind of leeway. He's supposed to have no flaws or darkness in him, but it's unrealistic to be so superpowered, have equally superpowered villains to go against him, and have everything turn out hunky dory in a semi-serious interpretation.

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Old 10-28-2013, 04:12 AM   #762
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I've typed it before and I'll have no problem typing it again: SUPERMAN:THE MOVIE is the fantasy/fairy tale version of the character. Brilliantly so. Meta, before meta was cool. "This is no fantasy..." (Sorry Marlon, that it is. It's why Tom M. and Donner have you say that to the audience.) "Peter Pan flew with children Lois... In a fairy tale..." (And that's exactly what a grown up Lois is about to do. Take flight with a hero out of a modern fairy tale.)

MAN OF STEEL is a film that showcases and embraces Superman as the gestalt SciFi Hercules. It's SciFi as modern mythology and is just as brilliant in my eyes to what Donner and Tom M. pulled off in the far away late 1970's.

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Old 10-28-2013, 05:05 AM   #763
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 4

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I've typed it before and I'll have no problem typing it again: SUPERMAN:THE MOVIE is the fantasy/fairy tale version of the character. Brilliantly so. Meta, before meta was cool. "This is no fantasy..." (Sorry Marlon, that it is. It's why Tom M. and Donner have you say that to the audience.) "Peter Pan flew with children Lois... In a fairy tale..." (And that's exactly what a grown up Lois is about to do. Take flight with a hero out of a modern fairy tale.)

MAN OF STEEL is a film that showcases and embraces Superman as the gestalt SciFi Hercules. It's SciFi as modern mythology and is just as brilliant in my eyes to what Donner and Tom M. pulled off in the far away late 1970's.
For scifi to be brilliant, it needs to have philosophical meat, like the matrix or district 9.

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Old 10-28-2013, 05:13 AM   #764
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 4

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I would be happy with little hints, or story elements that lead to Brainiac (my preferred take is that of the cybernetic Coluan scientist), but to leave him for a 3rd go round with Superman, in what ever form that takes.

With a story that most think is going to have Lex and Batman, and have Lois and Clark's evolving relationship, and possible themes and ideas picked up from the first film, Supes/Snyder/Goyer have enough on their plate.

But for a 3rd Cavil headed Superman film, especially one with perhaps Supergirl and a returned Faora-Ul, then Brainiac is the best fit. Hey, a guy can dream, can't he?
I agree, but I personally think they should also bring in:



then maybe consider,



As well as:


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Old 10-28-2013, 05:14 AM   #765
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Man of Steel had Plato all over it. With the Kryptonian birth system, everybody as a predestined purpose and basically no free will. Zor El although a man of power and a scientist he objected his superiors and gave birth to a child, Kal El is the only Kryptonian in centuries that was born unpluged. Also Man of Steel features not the cliche but the fundemental conflict of Good vs Evil (i hate when people call that a cliche).

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Old 10-28-2013, 05:48 AM   #766
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Im not sure that MoS waa about good vs evil, as Zod was no more evil. He wanted for Earth what George Washington wanted for America.

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Old 10-28-2013, 06:01 AM   #767
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Im not sure that MoS waa about good vs evil, as Zod was no more evil. He wanted for Earth what George Washington wanted for America.

On that I will agree... An approaching the conflict between our Hero and the antagonists in a way that gave the villains some relatable shading, and even the whiff of tragedy was most pleasing to me. I would also say that the film presented Superman's life story in a way that allowed for great moral nuance and complexity. The film had depth of a philosophical nature in scads. It was also a great modern version of the "whizz bang" Scifi that in fact inspired the creation of Superman, i.e. Flash Gordon, Buck Rogers, Gladiator, ect. The gestalt SciFi Hercules was in his element for sure in MOS.

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Old 10-28-2013, 10:09 AM   #768
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 4

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Originally Posted by Rorschach2012 View Post
What if the villains are Brainiac and Lex Luthor? I think there's a good chance it could be those two.
I think they put enough ties into krytpon/codex/AI to not feature Brainiac later in the serious. I would suspect he brings doomsday with him given what the comic book adaptations have explained about those creatures on krypton(Jor's kryptonian armor being their bones)

I would also suspect we'll be seeing a world engine tech powered metallo.

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Love this gif. So badass.
I liked it at first but it's just a little too wire worky on the take off and the landing(the balance). However unlike a leap I suppose flying would explain that.

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Old 10-28-2013, 12:56 PM   #769
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Even before Zod got suicidal, the world machines would have killed everyone on Earth had superman not destroyed it and stopped Zod's scout ship from destroying the military plane that had his spaceship inside of it.

Plus, I don't think Superman should get blamed if people are still standing around and watching the fight rather than running away as far as they could when they see two super beings going at it.
Can't agree more!!!

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Old 10-28-2013, 01:03 PM   #770
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 4

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It just goes to show on how some just have unrealistic and impossible expectations for the character.

People say that he's not relevant and yet when they try to modernize him in some ways, they cry foul and say that they're dishonoring the mythology of the character.

People expect Superman to save everyone within a film and blame him if they think one single death occurs during his watch, and yet in the same time, people say that he's not interesting because he's too powerful.

Honestly, it's folks like that where I really could give a crap about their opinions regarding the character anymore other than how annoying and *****y they come off as in their unfounded rants.
great one... some fans are never satisficed

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Old 10-28-2013, 02:01 PM   #771
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 4

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Originally Posted by KRYPTON INC. View Post
It'sjustsomerandomguy's bit on that idea was so on point.

I was very pleased with what we got. Was it the Superman film I would have made, in tone or story? No. Not in the least. Does not mean I can't appreciate that it did what SR could not. Bring the Superman film franchise back to life, plus, BONUS, kickstart a DCCU.
Of course that was the point.. if the movie was from our ideas.. not expectations and monotony will reign..
IMO MOS's story and tone was about the begining of the hero and one of the best in a realistic way and the movie refresh the character without taking superman's essence

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Old 10-28-2013, 02:06 PM   #772
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 4

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I've actually never understood why so many compare Superman to Christ when he has more things in common with Moses from the bible.

Both characters were placed within some traveling pod that led them from certain death. They were both children of two worlds, with Superman having Earth and Krypton while Moses had Israel and Egypt. They're both famous for having arch enemies that are conveniently bald (Lex and Ramses), etc.

In any case, I can see why some directors avoid tackling Superman because he's like the hardest comic book character to bring on screen since no matter what a person can do with the character, people will be pissed off about it and it's not exactly easy finding a actor who can commit to the role and make you believe that he's superman and not some actor trying to be superman.
For me only Reeve and Cavill are Superman.. not just actor playing Superman...

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Old 10-28-2013, 02:14 PM   #773
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 4

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Originally Posted by KRYPTON INC. View Post
The Christ thing has it's parallels as well in Superman. Sent by a "heavenly father" to be raised by simple folk on Earth. Both a "man" and a "divine being" at the same time. But when you get really precise about it, Superman is simply a modern archetype found in human cultures all over. I am an atheist, so I include Jesus of Nazareth in that general mix.

What is the story of Hercules/Herakles? Well, he is the son of Zeus Pan Helios, the all powerful god king of the ancient Greeks. He is the result of the union between Zeus, a divine figure and a human female, thus a representation of divine power incarnated in human form. Hercules/Herakles' life is filled with instances where his tasks, intended by him or not, benefit the Greeks and the world, by slaying the dangerous monsters of myth. Hercules is a beloved figure in myth and lauded for his heroism. While Zeus is respected and feared, our hero is accepted in a way by the wider culture that is more personal. Hercules even descends into the realm of the dead and comes back unscathed. In one version of his story, his mortal form is burned away so that his divine essence might ascend to live amongst the other gods in the pantheon of the Greco/Roman world.

What is the story of Thor? Thor is the offspring of Sky (Odin) and Earth (Jord) and as such is again an example of the union of the mundane and the divine. He is the god/hero much more embraced by the freemen and farmers that made up the Norse world. Again we see that the son of the high god is much more beloved by the common man than the Sky Father is.
Thor is seen as a protector of Earth and Asgard.

What is the story of Jesus? Jesus is the only begotten son of the God Yahweh/El worshipped by the ancient Israelites. Again, he is a figure that encompasses both Earth and the supernatural heavens. He is a figure that, though part of a Trinitarian view of a high monotheistic God, has come to be loved, where his "father" is more feared.

What is Supes story again if not following a certain pattern.
NICE POST!!!

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Old 10-28-2013, 02:18 PM   #774
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 4

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Originally Posted by DA_Champion View Post
For scifi to be brilliant, it needs to have philosophical meat, like the matrix or district 9.
It was a philoshopical yes, but the main point of the movie was in a more dramatic way

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Old 10-28-2013, 02:23 PM   #775
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 4

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Originally Posted by NosfeRomas View Post
Man of Steel had Plato all over it. With the Kryptonian birth system, everybody as a predestined purpose and basically no free will. Zor El although a man of power and a scientist he objected his superiors and gave birth to a child, Kal El is the only Kryptonian in centuries that was born unpluged. Also Man of Steel features not the cliche but the fundemental conflict of Good vs Evil (i hate when people call that a cliche).
Yeah I don't understand that cause it has a lot of philosophy but not in the way as District 9 or Matrix (cause the character is not that way those characters are) it was about "drama" and the character's emotions, doubts and the way he's seeing the world..

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