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Old 10-22-2013, 02:41 PM   #76
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 4

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That really depends on how well the Director and Writer are able to manage their characters though. If they're capable or have a solid plan in mind, then it's possible to present all of these characters while having a very coherent narrative.

It's just a matter of time really in seeing as to whether Snyder can do that.

Not really. A director can be very capable of "managing characters" (Sam Raimi), but still be held back by time constraints. The more primary characters (especially newly introduced primary characters, either heroes or villains), the more time needs to be devoted to developing that specific character. Secondary characters (like Scarecrow, Hawkeye, Faora) need less time to be developed. So, it's not wholly up to the "skill" or facility of the director "managing" these characters.

Also disagree about "coherent narrative". The narrative can be completely coherent with many characters, but the overall story may feel unfinished and underdeveloped.

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Old 10-22-2013, 05:01 PM   #77
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 4

I believe and specualte that the best marketing strategy for Wonder woman will be to introduce her in this move, followed by a solo outing.

Its a safe way for WB to guage her popularity and how well they could market a solo movie for her, or use her like the black widow if it appears that the general audiences aren't very receptive but Batman vs Superman is a success.

Just makes sense to have her have a small role and test the waters.

But, I have been saying this for a while after the casting call.


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Old 10-22-2013, 05:04 PM   #78
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^ I think "teasing" her showing the Lasso of Truth is the best way to "force" a stand-alone film on WB

A Marvel style stinger like Thor's hammer seems like the best way to guarantee butts in seats, while not forcing WW into MOS2's narrative.

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Old 10-22-2013, 05:08 PM   #79
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 4

That does make sense. I think adding WW to the movie can really add to the buzz -- the question is whether it'll be done well.

The potential for this movie can go either extremely well or really badly though. If they craft a solid supporting role for WW/Diana in the film and cast a good actress, it'll counteract some of that negative buzz lingering from Affleck's casting as Batman.

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Old 10-22-2013, 05:15 PM   #80
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 4

Personally, I think WB should just bite the bullet and go for it. Just make a Wonder Woman movie. Really, how difficult is it to get a decent script, director and lead actress? They already have name recognition, so that guarantees butts in seats. I don't understand the trepidation, especially after the success of similar "b level" characters like Thor, Ironman, Captain America, etc... just bafflingly stupid.

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Old 10-22-2013, 05:22 PM   #81
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 4

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Personally, I think WB should just bite the bullet and go for it. Just make a Wonder Woman movie. Really, how difficult is it to get a decent script, director and lead actress? They already have name recognition, so that guarantees butts in seats. I don't understand the trepidation, especially after the success of similar "b level" characters like Thor, Ironman, Captain America, etc... just bafflingly stupid.
Because these guys don't know how to write strong leading women anymore. And frankly, I'll take a highly delayed WW movie than a crappily-written one. The TV pilot was bad enough! I don't think my brain can take another.

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Old 10-22-2013, 05:26 PM   #82
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 4

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That does make sense. I think adding WW to the movie can really add to the buzz -- the question is whether it'll be done well.

The potential for this movie can go either extremely well or really badly though. If they craft a solid supporting role for WW/Diana in the film and cast a good actress, it'll counteract some of that negative buzz lingering from Affleck's casting as Batman.
It could be a role or a teaser, but it would be foolish for WB not set a foundation for her in this film in some way and see what they have.

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Old 10-22-2013, 05:30 PM   #83
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Because these guys don't know how to write strong leading women anymore. And frankly, I'll take a highly delayed WW movie than a crappily-written one. The TV pilot was bad enough! I don't think my brain can take another.
Did they ever? lol. This is Hollywood we're talking about here. Incompetence reigns supreme.

Hollywood on how to write a "strong leading woman": All the "macho" traits of a man...but with boobs.

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Old 10-22-2013, 05:35 PM   #84
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 4

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Did they ever? lol. This is Hollywood we're talking about here. Incompetence reigns supreme.

Hollywood on how to write a "strong leading woman": All the "macho" traits of a man...but with boobs.
Well, I didn't think Ellen Ripley was a macho man with boobs, but she was definitely written very "neutral." Wasn't she originally written as a man, anyway? Sarah Conner in T2 is another, and she obviously started out as female in the script.

Action-adventure movies with leading women require them to be somewhat masculine. Otherwise there wouldn't be a woman leading. Writing them as if they were capable, neutral (ie, not particularly macho ala Ahnuld) men first is good enough for me.

I wonder how Hunger Games would have turned out if it hadn't been based on a book. Probably disastrously.

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Old 10-22-2013, 05:38 PM   #85
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 4

I can't believe how some of you are in favor of WB just putting out a WW movie instead of taking their time with it. As Anita 18 said....I can wait for them to put their ducks in a row than hastily crapped out movie.

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Old 10-22-2013, 05:38 PM   #86
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 4

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Well, I didn't think Ellen Ripley was a macho man with boobs, but she was definitely written very "neutral." Wasn't she originally written as a man, anyway? Sarah Conner in T2 is another, and she obviously started out as female in the script.

Action-adventure movies with leading women require them to be somewhat masculine. Otherwise there wouldn't be a woman leading. Writing them as if they were capable, neutral (ie, not particularly macho ala Ahnuld) men first is good enough for me.

I wonder how Hunger Games would have turned out if it hadn't been based on a book. Probably disastrously.

There's a fine line to walk, to be sure...Most of the time (let's say 90%) the results are either mind numbingly boring characterization or insulting/pandering.

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Old 10-22-2013, 05:40 PM   #87
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 4

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That does make sense. I think adding WW to the movie can really add to the buzz -- the question is whether it'll be done well.

The potential for this movie can go either extremely well or really badly though. If they craft a solid supporting role for WW/Diana in the film and cast a good actress, it'll counteract some of that negative buzz lingering from Affleck's casting as Batman.
No counter-acting necessary. Any lingering negative buzz towards Ben will be gone and forgotten by the spring of 2014 once we get some actual info from filming, see an official still from the film, and/or the first teaser trailer.

You can quote me on that.

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Old 10-22-2013, 05:50 PM   #88
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 4

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I can't believe how some of you are in favor of WB just putting out a WW movie instead of taking their time with it. As Anita 18 said....I can wait for them to put their ducks in a row than hastily crapped out movie.
Huh? Where are you getting that? Who's asking for a rush job WW movie? Surprise! No one! They should take their time and get a good script/director/actors, etc...as I said before.

But I don't think it's necessary to keep beating around the bush and being SO trepidatious. I don't think they need to gauge GA "buzz" by showing her lasso in an end credits scene or any nonsense like that. At the rate they're going, they'll put out a WW movie by 2020.

Also, not "rushing it" is in no way a guarantee of quality. I learned that from MOS.

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Old 10-22-2013, 05:59 PM   #89
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 4

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Yeah I reckon a solo WW film is best follow BvS and before JL. The poor lady deserves it!! She's waited long enough! Plus we all know how great it would be.

She is a hard character to get right though. And I think alot of that has to do with her Greek mythology underpinnings. I'm not sure if that ages her when trying to do a modern superhero take or what. But great writers have really struggled with her. I can't even name the quintessential WW story. I'm hoping Grant Morrison's Wonder Woman Earth One will finally be the 'ahhh' moment for everyone (including WB's film-makers).
Agreed.. here's my take
Wonder Woman 2016
Flash or Flash vs Green Lantern end of 2015/2016
Justice League 2017 (Superman, Batman, Wondy, Green Lantern,MM (leaving the General Swanwick becoming Martian Manhunter to change a little bit its origin, and possibly Cyborg)
Man of steel 3 Solo movie 2018
Batman Solo movie 2018
Trinity (Superman, Batman and Wondy vs Atlanteans and introduction of Aquaman) that could be in exchange of Aquaman solo movie... 2019
Green Lantern or Aquaman solo movie 2019 (depends if trinity focus on Aquaman)
Shazam 2019
JL 2 (with Shazam and Aquaman properly introduced)
2020


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Old 10-22-2013, 06:07 PM   #90
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 4

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No counter-acting necessary. Any lingering negative buzz towards Ben will be gone and forgotten by the spring of 2014 once we get some actual info from filming, see an official still from the film, and/or the first teaser trailer.

You can quote me on that.
I think some of the naysayers are going to so set in their ways, they'll still be negative. No matter how good he looks in the Batsuit or how promising the teaser looks. They'll check out the final movie before they change their minds.

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Old 10-22-2013, 06:12 PM   #91
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 4

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Agreed.. here's my take
Wonder Woman 2016
Flash or Flash vs Green Lantern end of 2015/2016
Justice League 2017 (Superman, Batman, Wondy, Green Lantern,MM (leaving the General Swanwick becoming Martian Manhunter to change a little bit its origin, and possibly Cyborg)
Batman Solo movie 2018
Green Lantern solo movie 2018
Trinity (Superman, Batman and Wondy vs Atlanteans and introduction of Aquaman) that could be in exchange of Aquaman solo movie...
Aquaman 2019
Shazam 2019
JL 2 (with Shazam and Aquaman properly introduced)
2020
Wow, that sounds like a plan

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Old 10-22-2013, 06:14 PM   #92
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 4

Another Superman solo movie is missing from that list.

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Old 10-22-2013, 06:18 PM   #93
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 4

Yeah, I think all solo characters should at least have two movies.

Generally speaking, trilogies force a definitive arc (TDKR) or are a missed opportunity for finality (Iron Man 3). I'd rather imply that a character's main emotional problems are over with, or are ongoing, then force him to quit, get married, or die

Maybe all at once

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Old 10-22-2013, 06:45 PM   #94
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 4

You can't really say IM3 was a missed opportunity for finality. The MCU, by definition, won't end after a character trilogy. You have to think of each solo property as its own mini-Bond franchise.

I'm hoping DC takes their time and doesn't rush a JL movie. I'd rather see individual movies before the team-up.

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Old 10-22-2013, 06:47 PM   #95
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 4

No, IM3 was just a missed opportunity at a serious film and a second good IM film in general. ****ing Shane Black.

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Old 10-22-2013, 06:51 PM   #96
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I don't want to turn this into an IM3 review forum. It wasn't my favorite, but whatevs. It made a ton of money, so someone must have liked Black's take on it.

My point is that the MCU won't have the traditional trilogy formula, so it shouldn't be expected.

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Old 10-22-2013, 06:58 PM   #97
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Yeah sorry for writing that but i couldn't really help it.

Actually its a good thing MCU doesn't follow the traditional formula. So many opportunities for crossovers, team ups. Unlimited potential. RDJ is the heart and soul of the MCU but even when he leaves, by that time they will have developed a huge cast of fan favourite characters.

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Old 10-22-2013, 07:00 PM   #98
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Yeah, DC should try to not "clone" the MCU, but make a great universe of its own

That's why I don't want the JL movie to be about an invasion of Earth.

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Old 10-22-2013, 07:09 PM   #99
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 4

I think for the DCU to thrive, they're going to have to embrace the fantasy and ditch the Nolan-esque "dark and gritty" realism. This isn't a knock on the Nolan movies, but they're standalone for a reason--the rest of the DCU doesn't fit in his world.

Flash and WW deserve their own movies, but to do so, I think it's a mistake to try to shoehorn them into the Nolan style. MoS tried too hard to emulate it, IMO, and it was weakest when it went down that road. If the story is good, it won't matter if it has a lot of fantasy elements or not. People will come.

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Old 10-22-2013, 07:12 PM   #100
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 4

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Not really. A director can be very capable of "managing characters" (Sam Raimi), but still be held back by time constraints. The more primary characters (especially newly introduced primary characters, either heroes or villains), the more time needs to be devoted to developing that specific character. Secondary characters (like Scarecrow, Hawkeye, Faora) need less time to be developed. So, it's not wholly up to the "skill" or facility of the director "managing" these characters.

Also disagree about "coherent narrative". The narrative can be completely coherent with many characters, but the overall story may feel unfinished and underdeveloped.
The trend, in my experience, is for less coherent narratives when there are too many characters. Star trek into darkness is a good example, with its two villains, one villain too many. Man of steel, likewise, wasted too much time on jor el.

But more compelling might be more apt than more coherent.

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