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Old 11-20-2013, 10:52 PM   #1
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Default Will this Captain America Movie be more serious then the last one?

I liked the trailer for this new Captain America movie, but I thought the last movie was too silly. The first Captain America movie was set in WWII, but it Hydra instead of Nazis, who had laser guns instead real guns and Red Skull went from a truly hate filled, racist and malicious villain, to just another power mad megalomaniac. That movie felt like an overly censored Sat morning cartoon.

I hope the new Captain America movie will have less censorship and hand holding then the last one. Do you think the new Captain America movie will be more serious then the last one?


Last edited by The Overlord; 11-21-2013 at 12:04 AM. Reason: Typo
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Old 11-20-2013, 11:10 PM   #2
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Default Re: Will this Captain America Movie be more seriously then the last one?

Is English not your first language?

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Old 11-20-2013, 11:28 PM   #3
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Default Re: Will this Captain America Movie be more serious then the last one?

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Is English not your first language?
Eh, everyone makes a typo now and again, my point is still valid.


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Old 11-21-2013, 01:56 AM   #4
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Default Re: Will this Captain America Movie be more seriously then the last one?

I actually took the first film seriously for the most part, and it seems the sequel will be increasing that as well. What's crucial to remember about Captain America is that he has none of today's cynicism or rampant depression. He fights to defend the values the U.S. was originally founded on, regardless of public opinion or party politics. As I said in another thread, "if Steve were real, he'd be the biggest opponent of political correctness this country's ever seen".

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Old 11-21-2013, 03:26 AM   #5
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Default Re: Will this Captain America Movie be more seriously then the last one?

This film will be as cereal as these two bad guys

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Old 11-21-2013, 09:26 PM   #6
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Default Re: Will this Captain America Movie be more seriously then the last one?

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I actually took the first film seriously for the most part, and it seems the sequel will be increasing that as well. What's crucial to remember about Captain America is that he has none of today's cynicism or rampant depression. He fights to defend the values the U.S. was originally founded on, regardless of public opinion or party politics. As I said in another thread, "if Steve were real, he'd be the biggest opponent of political correctness this country's ever seen".
I still the first movie would have worked better with real Nazis who had real guns. I like WWII history, so that stuff just bugged me.

Speaking of political correctness, I think I like Red Skull better as a very politically incorrect villain. In the comics Red Skull is racist, sexist, homophobic and generally just a very hate filled person, in the movie he was a just another power mad egomaniac. Captain America fights for freedom and tolerance, so having him fight a psychopathic racist and fascist is a good conflict. To make a purely good vs. evil conflict work, the evil side should be really evil. The Red Skull may be the most evil villain in the Marvel universe, I don't get that from the movie. Sebastian Shaw seems like a better Nazi villain then Red Skull in the movies.

I don't know, maybe having a psychopathic Nazi villain would too scary for kids and maybe they thought that would be a hard sell to the German market.

I hoping the Winter Solider movie will have more fearsome enemies, maybe be an interesting political thriller, rather then feeling like a censored Sat morning cartoon in some places.

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Old 11-21-2013, 09:32 PM   #7
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Default Re: Will this Captain America Movie be more serious then the last one?

The Red Skull was ridiculously watered down. Hopefully this film won't do the same with their villains.

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Old 11-21-2013, 10:13 PM   #8
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Default Re: Will this Captain America Movie be more serious then the last one?

Red Skull has always been flexible with his ideologies. Didn't he like eschew Nazism for the American dream's more negative aspects?

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Old 11-21-2013, 10:15 PM   #9
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Default Re: Will this Captain America Movie be more serious then the last one?

Red Skull is about power for himself, pure and simple. He doesn't particularly care how he gets it. In Brubaker's run, Red Skull even said that he had "grown beyond Fascism."

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Old 11-21-2013, 10:20 PM   #10
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Default Re: Will this Captain America Movie be more serious then the last one?

He still holds to fascism beliefs nonetheless (homophobia, sexism, racism, etc.). I felt like I was watching more of a Saturday morning cartoon villain than the actual Red Skull. If they ever bring him back in an MCU film, I hope they fix him a bit.

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Old 11-22-2013, 12:58 AM   #11
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Default Re: Will this Captain America Movie be more serious then the last one?

Red Skull in TFA was meant to be a throwback to old school pulp Adventure/Sci-Fi villains (in the vein of James Bond). I felt that was very obvious as the whole movie strived for that type of feel. I am sure whenever the Red Skull appears next, he will be a changed villain. For what he was supposed to be, I felt Red Skull was awesome.

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Old 11-22-2013, 02:55 AM   #12
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Default Re: Will this Captain America Movie be more serious then the last one?

I agree. Captain America: The First Avenger was very much like the old serials updated. It felt very comic booky and, as mentioned, somewhat Saturday morning cartoon-like and I consider that a positive. I knew I was watching Marvel's WWII once the lasers starting flying around and atomizing people. Very Jack Kirby. It reminded me a little bit of the GI Joe cartoons from the 80s, even. I like Cap when he's all Sci-fied up.

Winter Soldier looks to have a tone more akin to Tom Clancy or Brubaker'a run but both movies will certainly be awesome versions of the different sides there is to Captain America and his mythos.

Besides, I'll take lasers over bullets in live action any day. It just reminds me that I'm watching a comic book movie in all of it's over the top glory.

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Old 11-22-2013, 08:15 AM   #13
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Default Re: Will this Captain America Movie be more serious then the last one?

Cap 1 was one of the most series and emotional movies of Phase 1!

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Old 11-22-2013, 08:27 AM   #14
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Default Re: Will this Captain America Movie be more serious then the last one?

I too look forward to the winter soldier and its Clancy styed take on cap

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Old 11-22-2013, 03:13 PM   #15
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Default Re: Will this Captain America Movie be more serious then the last one?

Well, for one thing, we won't have Cap performing for the USO while chorus girls sing about how he's a star-spangled man with a plan.

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Old 11-22-2013, 04:11 PM   #16
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Default Re: Will this Captain America Movie be more serious then the last one?

Right-o! The CA:TFA version of Red Skull was as pulpy as the rest of the movie's tone. They gave Steve Rogers a musical number, for Pete's sake, and for my money, that turned out to be the most memorable, awesome sequence in any Marvel movie to date.

I see CA:TFA as a celebration of the 40's, the nearly nostalgic way we see the past, very similar to Indiana Jones. Which is why it's my absolute favorite Marvel solo movie. Johnston and the screenwriters seemed to get the Kirbyesque storytelling of Cap's earlier books and they nailed that tone so well.

The thing that I do love about the look of CA:TWS so far is that it seems to be nailing the Brubaker era pretty much perfectly. A darker, edgier political thrilleresque Captain America. I am hoping that the more intimate relationship between Cap and the Winter Soldier in this film lends itself to a darker edge with the humor this time around. Widow and Falcoln, though, and maybe even Rumlow, will likely provide some banter/humorous moments, but not a lot to throw off the thriller vibe.

There will be some funny moments, though, I imagine. So long as it doesn't cut into the Winter Soldier reveal, I'm cool with it.

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Old 11-22-2013, 05:16 PM   #17
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Default Re: Will this Captain America Movie be more serious then the last one?

I loved the first Cap film. Red Skull did come across as memorable to me and if he's brought back, there might be at least some reference to his time with the Third Reich where he'd probably encounter Black Widow and say something along the lines of, "They really thought a Slav could defeat me? Maybe it's time somebody convinced you of your inferiority." That said, I'd still rather see Viper, Zemo and Sinthia Schmidt as villains before Cap moves on to fighting Skull again.

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Old 11-22-2013, 07:25 PM   #18
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Default Re: Will this Captain America Movie be more serious then the last one?

In "The First Avenger" there were a lot of humorous moments, including Fondue and the interaction among the Howling Commandos.

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Old 11-22-2013, 09:22 PM   #19
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Default Re: Will this Captain America Movie be more serious then the last one?

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Red Skull in TFA was meant to be a throwback to old school pulp Adventure/Sci-Fi villains (in the vein of James Bond). I felt that was very obvious as the whole movie strived for that type of feel. I am sure whenever the Red Skull appears next, he will be a changed villain. For what he was supposed to be, I felt Red Skull was awesome.
Okay, but don't think that is who the Red Skull is, it seems like something that is not as interesting as what we see in the comics. I also think Red Skull didn't do much in that first film and wasn't nearly evil enough, I would have less problems if they turned some other Cap villain into a just pulp villain, Red Skull for me, should always be pure evil.

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I agree. Captain America: The First Avenger was very much like the old serials updated. It felt very comic booky and, as mentioned, somewhat Saturday morning cartoon-like and I consider that a positive. I knew I was watching Marvel's WWII once the lasers starting flying around and atomizing people. Very Jack Kirby. It reminded me a little bit of the GI Joe cartoons from the 80s, even. I like Cap when he's all Sci-fied up.

Winter Soldier looks to have a tone more akin to Tom Clancy or Brubaker'a run but both movies will certainly be awesome versions of the different sides there is to Captain America and his mythos.

Besides, I'll take lasers over bullets in live action any day. It just reminds me that I'm watching a comic book movie in all of it's over the top glory.
By that logic, should the Tom Clancy spy thriller version of Cap, have guys with laser guns in it? I think that would ruin the tone of the movie. That's why I didn't like the laser guns in the first movie, it ruined the tone of a movie that is set in WWII. Golden Age Captain America comics had Nazis and real guns. Just because a movie is based on a comic, doesn't mean I have to accept every silly thing that happens in the movie, Superman 4 was based on a comic book and I still think Superman rebuilding the Great Wall of China by looking at it, was ridiculous and took me what of the movie. I still don't understand how they have laser guns in WWII, but no one seems to have laser guns in the present. I really don't wan to see laser guns in the next Cap movie, if it is supposed to be a political thriller, that would ruin the tone for me, just like laser guns and no Nazis ruined the tone of of the first movie, because it just didn't feel like it was set in WWII.

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Red Skull is about power for himself, pure and simple. He doesn't particularly care how he gets it. In Brubaker's run, Red Skull even said that he had "grown beyond Fascism."
Except whenever Red Skull gains any power, he used it to fulfill his cruel and sadistic desires. Red Skull doesn't want power for power's sake, he wants power to promote pain and sorrow to his fellow man, because he has a grudge against the world. When Red Skull gained the power of cosmic cube again in the 90s, he used it to go to a country filled with people he deemed "racially inferior" used the power of the cube to reduce the population to a state of starvation and started throwing apples at the starving crowds so they would kill each other.

If Red Skull ever shows up again in the movies, I would like see less generic power lust and more evil cruelty. Comic Book Red Skull is motivated more by hatred then power lust.


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Old 11-22-2013, 10:32 PM   #20
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Red Skull wanted to blow up most of Earth's major cities (including Berlin, his OWN capital) just to prove his own godhood. Sorry, but I fail to see how he "wasn't evil enough." Also, Red Skulls motives vary, he didn't seem to interested in "promoting pain an suffering" in Brubaker's run. He just wanted to take over the US, simple as that.

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Old 11-22-2013, 10:33 PM   #21
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Default Re: Will this Captain America Movie be more serious then the last one?

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By that logic, should the Tom Clancy spy thriller version of Cap, have guys with laser guns in it? I think that would ruin the tone of the movie. That's why I didn't like the laser guns in the first movie, it ruined the tone of a movie that is set in WWII. Golden Age Captain America comics had Nazis and real guns. Just because a movie is based on a comic, doesn't mean I have to accept every silly thing that happens in the movie, Superman 4 was based on a comic book and I still think Superman rebuilding the Great Wall of China by looking at it, was ridiculous and took me what of the movie. I still don't understand how they have laser guns in WWII, but no one seems to have laser guns in the present. I really don't wan to see laser guns in the next Cap movie, if it is supposed to be a political thriller, that would ruin the tone for me, just like laser guns and no Nazis ruined the tone of of the first movie, because it just didn't feel like it was set in WWII.
What you're thinking of is an anachronism (something from one era or time period being put in another era or time period) and I think that's part of what makes old school Cap awesome. It's like seeing a space-ship show up during WWII. By your logic the cosmic cube should not have even been a plot device since it ruins the super realistic WWII aesthetics. The whole point is it's this very real war that takes a very strange turn. It's essentially the first real taste of The Avengers where the real world is invaded by aliens and gods. I like that about it. Bullets flying everywhere and then suddenly "Holy ****! It's a robot!" (I'll be honest. Kind of hoping the giant robot will show up in this like it did at the end of the Winter Soldier storyline in the comics).

Also I don't believe Superman IV was based on any comics. I feel those movies, all of them, started making up powers and events considered silly even by comic book standards (but then again, silver age DC was already pretty ridiculous).

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Old 11-22-2013, 10:56 PM   #22
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Red Skull wanted to blow up most of Earth's major cities (including Berlin, his OWN capital) just to prove his own godhood. Sorry, but I fail to see how he "wasn't evil enough." Also, Red Skulls motives vary, he didn't seem to interested in "promoting pain an suffering" in Brubaker's run. He just wanted to take over the US, simple as that.
Except that could have been step one in promoting a dictatorship that would eventually serve at his cruel and sadistic impulses, I don't think Red Skull lost his cruelty under Brubaker's pen, considering how he treated his own daughter, I actually think Red Skull is more consistently written then Doom and Magneto are.

Movie Red Skull lacked the more personal acts of cruelty that comic book Red Skull had. In the comics, Red Skull likes to inflict cruelties on sorts of people, his daughter, his girl friend and random people who did nothing to him. Red Skull doesn't act cruel because it gains him power, he acts cruel, because he likes being cruel. Comic Book Red skull isn't just power mad, he will do cruel and sadistic things, because he enjoys them. That is what movie Red Skull is missing.

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What you're thinking of is an anachronism (something from one era or time period being put in another era or time period) and I think that's part of what makes old school Cap awesome. It's like seeing a space-ship show up during WWII. By your logic the cosmic cube should not have even been a plot device since it ruins the super realistic WWII aesthetics. The whole point is it's this very real war that takes a very strange turn. It's essentially the first real taste of The Avengers where the real world is invaded by aliens and gods. I like that about it. Bullets flying everywhere and then suddenly "Holy ****! It's a robot!" (I'll be honest. Kind of hoping the giant robot will show up in this like it did at the end of the Winter Soldier storyline in the comics).

Also I don't believe Superman IV was based on any comics. I feel those movies, all of them, started making up powers and events considered silly even by comic book standards (but then again, silver age DC was already pretty ridiculous).
It didn't feel awesome to me, it felt like censorship and hand holding and really Golden age Captain America comics had Nazis and real guns, so I don't see how laser guns are more true to comics. This is why I didn't like the 90s Spider-Man, it was so censored and water down, that it affected my enjoyment of the show and really the movie felt like the censorship was affecting my enjoyment of it.

I think I would have preferred one or two over the top things, like a few super soldiers and Red Skull having a doomsday device and have the rest of the movie be a straight WWII story, within PG-13 bounds of course. The laser guns felt really out of place and ruined any feeling that this was a real period piece. I like laser guns in certain settings and contexts, WWII is not a context in which I would enjoy laser guns. Again just because a film is based on a comic book doesn't mean I have like everything within the movie and accept it just because it is a comic book movie, especially since in the Captain America comics, Cap fought real Nazis with real guns in WWII.

Again if the next Captain America movie is supposed to be a political thriller, would laser guns fit that tone and context?


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Old 11-22-2013, 11:25 PM   #23
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I'm not saying that you have to like it. Just that Cap is a very pulpy character who is all about out of place things popping up. Hell, Cap IS an out of place thing that popped up. I guess lasers is considered censorship if you just want gore but I see it as a more visually interesting way of killing a guy. Plus it kills people 100% of the time that it makes contact.

If lasers are used by the enemy like they were in CA: TFA as a game changing weapon then I'm okay with it. I like Sci-fi so I enjoy these things. I'm not really looking for Saving Private Ryan with a juxtaposed Cap. I'm looking for a guy messing with elements well above his pay grade and persevering (like many other pulp heroes of the past).

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Old 11-22-2013, 11:40 PM   #24
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I'm not saying that you have to like it. Just that Cap is a very pulpy character who is all about out of place things popping up. Hell, Cap IS an out of place thing that popped up. I guess lasers is considered censorship if you just want gore but I see it as a more visually interesting way of killing a guy. Plus it kills people 100% of the time that it makes contact.

If lasers are used by the enemy like they were in CA: TFA as a game changing weapon then I'm okay with it. I like Sci-fi so I enjoy these things. I'm not really looking for Saving Private Ryan with a juxtaposed Cap. I'm looking for a guy messing with elements well above his pay grade and persevering (like many other pulp heroes of the past).
I never said anything about gore, I'm not foolish enough to think that a captain America movie would rated anything above PG-13. Indiana Jones movies had real guns and real Nazis and were rated PG, why couldn't Cap have those things?

Also this did not feel like a pulp movie to me, the Shadow was a pulp figure, but he used real guns and so did so did his enemies, so I don't see how laser guns are more "pulp" then real guns, when there were tons of pulp heroes who used real guns and their enemies did too. I don't see how all the villains having laser guns makes things more pulp, then a story where everyone has a real gun and the over top thing is mystic item that Red Skull is using to conquer the world. Sci Fi wasn't big in the US till the 1950s, in the 40s mysticism rather then sci fi appeared more often in fiction. I think real guns would have fit a pulp atmosphere more then laser guns.

And again, in actual WWII comics, Cap fought Nazis with real guns, so I don't see how the laser guns are more true to the comics.


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Old 11-23-2013, 12:20 AM   #25
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Default Re: Will this Captain America Movie be more serious then the last one?

I see what you mean. Thing is all the heroes in CA: TFA used regular guns and bullets. It was the bad guys who used lasers and that's what made them formidable. They were an enemy well ahead of their time even by today's standards (that's why SHIELD was working on recreating their weapons). That's the out of this world element that made the movie pulp. The alien device and the weapons it created for Hydra. That was it. The Howling Commandos did not use lasers and killed plenty with simple bullets.

Whether it was mystical or alien in nature, the enemy searched for and used a super powered element against the heroes (not to mention it backfired on them like it always does). That's pulp fiction to me. Might as well have retitled the movie "Captain America and The Cosmic Cube" with Indiana Jones font.

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