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Old 01-02-2014, 01:47 PM   #626
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Let's not forget all of his crazy Arkham followers like Thomas Schiff.

And really, this guy had the city under his thumb and escaped from the MCU is really going to be held and locked away in Arkham? People can say what they will about Batman, but Joker was very close to his larger than life comic counter part. What cell is going to hold him after all he orchestraded? Are we really supposed to believe that was the end of him? Riiiight.
Yeah exactly. I mean one of the predominant themes of this trilogy was the power of symbols and inspiration. If Batman can inspire with his theatricality, then so can the Joker. That was the message Nolan was making in TDK. Then TDKR poured cold water over all of that. Not to mention the downfall of Joker and the other mob guys would create a huge crime vacuum. Are we supposed to believe no other opportunistic criminals never filled the void just because of the Dent Act?

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You didn't, they do. They buy the revisionist quality of TDKR so they change and reinterpret the end of Dark Knight to fit TDKR's mold.
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Wrong again. If you looked back a few pages, I had no problem with what transpires with the 8 years/hermit Bruce because the build up and desire of him becoming Batman was something I relished . . . until that was shortlived and turned to crap too.

And I never said anything about Rachel, I understand TDKR BETTER than you. I was just warning C. Lee that you guys would jump on his **** for insinuating any of Rachel's involvement. Which y'all did. Nice try though.

As for Nolan and Co.? They're constantly contradicting what the "original vision/intent" was. Goyer especially. At one point Nolan was sure he wouldn't be back for a third. At one point, Dent would have been in part 3.


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Old 01-02-2014, 01:51 PM   #627
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If you gave me a TDKR where, instead of quitting for 8 years, Bruce becomes even more driven and obsessed with actively being Batman, to the point where its physically and mentally killing him…then give me an ending where he leaves Batman behind in a well executed manner, WITHOUT shacking up with the chick he barely knows and definitely WITHOUT Italian restaurants, I would’ve been satisfied.

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Old 01-02-2014, 02:07 PM   #628
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Heh, where are you getting that "he only trained with the LOS for a few months"? And before that, he wasn't just "aimlessly learning to survive", he was learning how the criminal mind/underworld worked. That was told to us in the movie very explicitly. Ra's even said to Bruce, " you've traveled the world to understand the criminal mind and to concur your fears". That doesn't sound like "aimlessly trying to survive" to me.

Also, the movie told us the day that Rachel smacked some sense into him, is the day he learned what justice was, and that was when he started to train. I mean it's all right there in the movie.
That's all true, but milost's comment made it seem like he specifically was devoting himself to training his body and mind for his mission from the start, when that is NOT the case. That's another instance of projecting "comic book Batman" onto Bale's Batman when the two are not one and the same. He had no clue what his ultimate mission was, that's why he ultimately is lost until Ra's finds him.

He runs away to the other side of the world because he wants to escape the pampered, sheltered bubble that Rachel and then Falcone point out that he lives in. He wants to prove to himself that he's more than some spoiled rich kid and that he can hack it in the "real world". And yes, he wants to conquer his fears and do something with his rage. But he runs away on impulse. He's lashing out. He has no idea what his ultimate mission or purpose is, and that's why he gets lost in the "scramble for his own gratification".

It is not the same at all as a doctor going to medical school. So sorry milost, but your comment is still a bad analogy.

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Old 01-02-2014, 02:10 PM   #629
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No it's not. He still wanted to fight crime. That's why he TRAINED, travelled the world and learned how to be a "criminal". He devotes 7 years to this idea. I'd say that's like "going to school".

Ra's and the LoS simply refined that path and taught him more. He still sought to "war" on crime. "You're not the devil, you're practice".

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Old 01-02-2014, 02:19 PM   #630
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But practice for what? Bruce didn't know. He needed direction badly at that point. He didn't even know if he'd return to Gotham for his "war" or just continue to be a drifter. Hell, he might've just rotted in that prison if Ra's didn't find him.

It just seems silly to me to look at it like he went off to Batman school when it's a much more nuanced journey than that. And the fact that he's "wasting" those years by retiring is a strange notion to me too, especially when it's something that's taken its physical toll and can't be done indefinitely. Was it a waste when he conceived Batman as a finite endeavor then too?

Heck, I'm spending a lot of my free time studying up on cinematography right now and I'm planning on shooting and directing a short film this year. But it may just be a temporary hobby for me in the long run. Does that mean all my time spent studying lenses, cameras, F stops, iso and color temperature is all a big waste of time? Not if I accomplish what I'm setting out to do.

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Old 01-02-2014, 02:28 PM   #631
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I think it's telling that Bruce takes his journey after he quits Princeton. He's off to look for himself, to become the man he's going to be. Just like any student.

Sure, he doesn't know Batman yet, but you don't spend that much time learning about criminals without an end game. Bruce wasn't completely aimless. His training before LoS helped shape BATMAN. Nobody here can deny that. The movie is called BATMAN BEGINS for crying out loud.

And this notion of "this isn't the comics" is just infuriating. Yes, we all know there are different interpretations of the character but, c'mon. Begins is soooo close to A Man Who Falls, Year One, etc. He's well on his way to becoming "that" Batman and at the end of Dark Knight, he is that Batman.

Then TDKR happens. That's the problem people have, not "this isn't teh comics". A driven Batman is a good Batman. When the character loses that pain, that motivation, he's not compelling any more. It should be understandable that it's not just "comic fidelity" as to why people dislike TDKR. Bruce is literally not Batman any more. He's in Italy living a good life I guess, having finally healed. Screw that.


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Old 01-02-2014, 02:41 PM   #632
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C'mon don't sell me short milost, you're better than that. You know damn well that I'm well acquainted with your beefs with the movie. I don't think you're a "TDKR sucked becuz it's not like teh comics!" person. In fact, I don't necessarily think anyone in here is really, despite the occasional groaning of "Bruce should never ever retire ever" (which you have to admit, DOES happen every now and then).

My argument has always been more that TDKR is in fact, consistent with what came before it. And that it fits perfectly within that vision as a logical conclusion. I can't separate the movies anymore when discussing Bruce Wayne's character arc. It's one story to me. So to me, someone complaining about Bruce's character in TDKR is also complaining about the character of all 3 films and the decision to make this trilogy Bruce Wayne's story. That's just my opinion. Of course you won't agree, but that's how I'll continue to see it.

I think your argument that Bruce had an endgame is unfounded. Maybe he wanted to have an endgame. If he had an endgame, I couldn't tell you what it was. My personal interpretation is that Bruce was escaping himself all those years. He no longer wanted to be the spoiled rich orphan that nobody feels sorry for. He instead wanted to be a rugged badass who can survive anything- while learning about criminals, even sympathizing with their plight in the process. Getting a firmer grasp of the complexities of the world. That to me is the heart of what his pre-LOS time is about. So yes, that helped shape his journey towards being Batman. But in a sense every step of our lives is helping to shape our ultimate destiny. It's very unlikely that where any of us thinks we're going is where we'll ultimately end up though. That's what's so human about the story.

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As for Nolan and Co.? They're constantly contradicting what the "original vision/intent" was. Goyer especially. At one point Nolan was sure he wouldn't be back for a third. At one point, Dent would have been in part 3.
Where do they contradict themselves? I mean with quotes. Show me the quote that says they had a 3 story arc that ends with Bruce being the fully developed Batman of the comics. Sure, Goyer's original outline had a third film with Dent. So? They're very open about how the specifics of the plan changed along the way. But I believe it when they say the core skeleton of the 3 act story remained the same. It only makes sense.

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Old 01-02-2014, 02:43 PM   #633
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I've been thinking a bit about all the complaints that this movie committed sacrilege re: Batman's character and made him all of a sudden start acting out of character and such.

The conclusion I've come to is...yes, without a doubt the Bruce Wayne/Batman whose arc we see in this trilogy is notably different than his comics counterpart (not to say that there's only one definitive version in the comics either). It's been said a lot that these weren't Batman movies, but in fact Bruce Wayne movies. But the more I think about it, it's really so very true.

The purists will jump on that saying, "But Bruce Wayne IS Batman!" and "Bruce Wayne is just the mask, Batman is the more interesting character!". And in the comics, I'd agree. But because this was framed from the start as as a hero's journey, a man on a quest, our relationship with that character changes.

What part of Batman Begins was the more interesting part? The first hour or the second hour? Most fans tend to say the former, and I'd agree. So right from the get go, this series nixes the notion that Bruce Wayne is only interesting with the Batman persona.

It's just so clear now that this was never, never going to be a story wherein Bruce became more and more like his comics counterpart until he was a permanent fixture in this Gotham. It's an arc about a deeply wounded man, burdened by his wealth and unable to move on with his life finding an outlet for his rage while somehow trying to live up to his father's legacy. Along the way his battles change him, leading him astray from his original path and intentions. By the end, it's clear that this was all a big transitional stage and he's able to leave behind a worthy legacy as Batman while taking his first steps towards trying to finally, after 30 years, start living something resembling a life.

I know that last sentence makes some of you cringe, but I'm sorry, I love that. It rounds off the story in the purest way. I mentioned that at the start of Batman Begins, he's a man on a quest. I see the ending of TDKR as the culmination of that quest. Ra's tells him if he can carry the blue flower to the top of the mountain, he'll find what he was looking for in the first place. It may just sound like some Eastern kung fu mumbo jumbo, but I think it's very telling that Bruce, unsure, returns that with a question ("And what was I looking for?"). Ra's tells him that only he can know that. Of course, from that moment on, his quest is to "turn fear on those who prey on the fearful". His quest and his decision to become Batman are undoubtedly tied up with fear, but in my opinion, it's only when "the fear finds him again" in the pit that he truly finds what he was looking for in the first place: wholeness. His humanity. What was taken from him the moment his parents died. Like many hero's journey tales, the story we've been told here is a quest for wholeness. Only neither us nor Bruce really knew that until the end. Though it seems clear to me now that Christopher Nolan and David Goyer did.

I think what it comes down to is some people don't think Bruce Wayne/Batman actually fits the "hero's journey" model. They don't want him to be whole. They don't want the quest to end. They want him to be forever damaged. And I get that. Bruce's ultimate "quest" in the comics is to stand in the face of the impossible and punch criminals in their turkey necks (as Kevin Smith would say) forever. That's a quest that understandably doesn't end.

But I contend that the quest of Bruce Wayne, Christopher Nolan's cinematic hero, and the character we've come to know as Batman were never one and the same. Even his ultimate mission as Batman in the movies isn't the same, it's not as romanticized as it is in the comics. There's no childhood vow. There's no scene at the Waynes' grave. He wants to rid the city of corruption so it can start helping itself. Batman is designed an enabler in these movies rather than the be-all end-all solution. However, ridding the city of corruption ends up being something far more complex than he bargained for. And he does get lost in the monster. The events of The Dark Knight represent the "in his prime" Batman coming face to face with his greatest nemesis. In the end he has to tarnish the symbol he was trying to create just to put a band-aid on the damage that he himself helped usher into Gotham.

The fact that The Dark Knight Rises centers on themes of revolution and economic disparity seems so appropriate when you consider the fact that the murder of the Waynes' is a direct result of the tension that exists between the classes. What resulted in that is a lonely child who grows up isolated and sheltered, with his rage against the world festering, very much as a consequence of his wealth. Someone who chokes on his silver spoon. It asks the question, who would that guy become? So the story that results is very much one about this confused and troubled rich orphan finding his place in the world. And the story is, among many things, an exploration of the correlation between money and power. I think that's a fascinating way to approach the Batman mythos. And Rises offers a holistic conclusion to his journey by very much rooting the story in these themes and not taking Bruce Wayne's tremendous wealth for granted. It's a huge part of his character, and it's why Bruce Wayne on his own is a very interesting character even before he decides to put on a mask.

So I guess at the end of the day, if you weren't happy with Bruce's character in Rises, in my opinion this means you really weren't on board with what Nolan set out to do with the character from day 1. And that's okay, there's nothing wrong with preferring a different version. I just think we should call it what it is.

I'll conclude with this excerpt from The Art and Making Of The Dark Knight Trilogy:
I think this entire post boils down to an in-depth argument of "This isn't comic book Batman, it's Nolan's Batman." See, this is what you guys don't get. I keep stating the following point over and over again and yet I still get that argument. Perhaps wording it like this will make my point clearer:

The ending is just as out-of-character for Nolan's Batman as it is for comic book Batman.

Watching BB and TDK, I would have never in a million years imagined this ending and I don't mean that in a "Oh, I was so surprised by Nolan" way. I mean that in a how an incredible out-of-character ending it is. Even if I had no knowledge of comic book Batman, I would still think the ending wouldn't fit solely by analyzing BB and TDK. More specifically TDK.


"Bruce's plan was never going to be permanent." When you and Shauner make such statement, I think you both make the same mistake Nolan and the production crew did with TDKR: You forget that TDK exists.

I said many times that anyone new to the franchise can just skip TDK and go straight from BB to TDKR. Literally the only things you need to know are that Rachel died, Harvey died, and Batman took the blame for Harvey's crimes. That's it. Every theme introduced in TDK, every character arc that each character had...all of that is gone. As if the film never happened. And it is that same mindset I see when people reference the above argument.

Yes, Bruce's original vision is to only do this for a while until Gotham can stand on its own legs and then be with Rachel. That was what BB is all about. But then TDK happens, where it is all about Bruce learning that he can't just quit. That Batman is who he is and who he needs to be. That there is a higher class of criminals on the rise (the freaks) and only Batman can take care of them. With Rachel now dead and gone, it only pushes him further into the Batman mantle. The message was "Only Bruce can be Batman" - the exact opposite message of TDKR. And it's not like this character arc comes out of nowhere either. BB even hints at it with the shocking reveal to Bruce that the real threat coming to destroy Gotham was from Scarecrow and the LOS...not from the "normal" mob boss Falcone as he originally thought. TDK only delved deeper into that theme.

You say "This is the Bruce Wayne trilogy" and "This isn't "Bruce is the mask, Batman is who he is"". And I couldn't disagree with that any more than I already do. BB even spells it out for us classic-Nolan style, with Rachel's whole speech on Bruce being his mask and "the man [she] loved never came back".

Thus due to all that and everything else I've brought up in the past regarding this argument, I still can't see how TDKR's ending would naturally fit even Nolan's Batman. Not only does it not fit, but I think it creates plot holes and inconsistencies within the trilogy. TDKR works better when you look at it as a stand-alone film as opposed to "the epic conclusion to this epic trilogy" as Nolan pitched it. You say "it's just so clear it was going to end this way" and to me, it's really not so clear it was going to end this way. Even with the notion that Bruce was going to permanently retire from Batman at the end, the context in which everything happens still makes it not-so-clear. Which brings me to my overall point that you've seen me bring up before...

In a franchise that spelled out to the viewers so much that Bruce would be Batman for a long time, I believe Nolan contrived a story and ending going against all of that just so that he could say to WB "I'm done." The most annoying thing about TDKR is how it tries to pretend as if, in hindsight, this was always meant to be a three-act trilogy. It wasn't. Prior to Nolan coming back in TDKR, BB and TDK were just the first two stories in the new current Batman franchise. Nolan wasn't even sure how many more films he would do or if he would even come back for a 2nd and 3rd film. Even if this would have been Nolan's last film, there is no guarantee it would have a closed ending and even if it would have had the same closed ending we got, the idea that this was always a planned three-act trilogy is still false. It would have just been "the final movie in this franchise that happens to have a closed ending". None of that "full circle" or "epic conclusion to this epic three-act trilogy" stuff.


And finally...the "Nolan said" list of arguments. As I said before, I cannot take the word of Nolan and his production crew post-TDKR. This is mainly because, if you look at a lot of the stuff said pre-TDKR and compare it to the statements made post-TDKR, a lot of them are contradictory. I won't sound redundant and reference quotes from the past you already heard me bring up (the Robin-related quote from Nolan about how "this is still a young Batman...no Robin for a few films", Goyer's whole "the cops will chase Batman" quote that I still have to look for ). Instead, I'll bring up another example: Back in '07, there was an interview with Nolan and Goyer released on TDK. They were essentially talking about Batman's character arc in TDK - how it was all about "Him wanting to quit, but learning that he can't just do this temporarily". I remember me and other users quoting that interview anytime we got into a discussion with the film, and especially when we heard false criticisms like "Batman has no character arc".

"But why would Nolan lie? Are you calling Nolan a liar?" That's presumably what you're thinking now. Well, yes and no. I prefer to interpret it as him trying too hard to cover up anything that will hinder the viewers' experience with one of his films. He is a great and talented director, but that is probably his biggest fault. He refuses to admit his films have deleted scenes or that he changed the story/certain story elements because he believes every film should stand on its own without the viewer thinking "I wish I could have seen those scenes because they fit so well in this specific scene" or "I wish they would have went with "plan A" for TDKR even though Ledger died". Because once you admit things like those, it affects the way the viewer looks at the film. Sometimes it's subconsciously, sometimes it isn't. A wise policy to an extent, but he takes it too far IMO. He takes it to the point where everything is "part of the plan", even things that were clearly not initially part of the plan and things that got cut/changed.

I'm sorry if you think this comes off as disrespectful, but every director has one flaw and that happens to be Nolan's biggest flaw IMO.

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Old 01-02-2014, 02:46 PM   #634
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Sorry Shika but you're a little late on that one. I am trying to make it clear that I'm arguing that it is BOTH consistent with Nolan's Batman AND that Nolan's Batman overall is different from the comics.

That is not the same as saying "TDKR did something different than the comics." I think the whole trilogy did.

Hope that clears up my stance.

That fact the you cite the line, "The man I loved never came back" only highlights why I think it was all one arc. In the end, that man DOES come back. He vanishes in the middle. It's the prestige of Nolan's magic trick.


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"Bruce's plan was never going to be permanent." When you and Shauner make such statement, I think you both make the same mistake Nolan and the production crew did with TDKR: You forget that TDK exists.
Trust me...I never forget TDK exists, haha. I love it too much. But I see it now as I saw it in 2008...the darker, middle chapter of a 3 act play. My views on this story have been consistent from the start. Maybe it's just because I love trilogies, but I always felt it (IN MAH BONES ) that this was going to be a trilogy as opposed to the start of a never-ending franchise. It really never mattered to me how much literal time Bruce clocked in the cowl.

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Old 01-02-2014, 02:51 PM   #635
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Wrong again. If you looked back a few pages, I had no problem with what transpires with the 8 years/hermit Bruce because the build up and desire of him becoming Batman was something I relished . . . until that was shortlived and turned to crap too.

And I never said anything about Rachel, I understand TDKR BETTER than you. I was just warning C. Lee that you guys would jump on his **** for insinuating any of Rachel's involvement. Which y'all did. Nice try though.

As for Nolan and Co.? They're constantly contradicting what the "original vision/intent" was. Goyer especially. At one point Nolan was sure he wouldn't be back for a third. At one point, Dent would have been in part 3.
He wasn't sure. He wasn't even sure about TDK. It doesn't mean they didn't have a story in the back of their minds, or at least an image. Dent was meant to be in the third before they finished the script for TDK. It just means that Two-Face and possibly a small part for Joker would have been in the third movie where Bruce would retire as the Batman. Which probably would have made you guys more mad considering we could have had an early 30s Bruce who hangs up his cowl versus an older one.

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Old 01-02-2014, 02:55 PM   #636
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@Lobster


So why was Nolan saying for months that he might not come back? Why does he state in the documentary that he wasn't sure if he'd return and he felt like he said everything that he wanted with Dark Knight until a new story was proposed?

Or how about Dent? How Finch was originally meant to be Dent and that Nolan sort of regrets not using Harvey for film 3. Or how about all the "make one story at a time" comments? You don't know what they had planned for the future after they submitted their final script and filmed it before Ledger died. Nor do I. I can tell you now it wouldn't be the TDKR we know though. It took CONVINCING to get him to include a Batmobile in Begins and Catwoman and Bane in TDKR.

After The Dark Knight, after the Joker, after Rachel's letter, after Gordon's speech, after "The Dark Knight" status, I'm sorry, that's pointing the audience in the direction of a darker, driven, more complex Batman. He wasn't running off to go build a megaton bomb, or be a sad bearded hermit who takes up archery, or live his Butler's dream in Italy. He's running because he can take it, because he's not Gotham's hero, or the type that gets a statue in honor of his service. He does it because he's the god damn Batman.


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Old 01-02-2014, 03:01 PM   #637
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Shika killed it.

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Old 01-02-2014, 03:02 PM   #638
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I think it's pretty simple. They had a rough, rough outline for what Bruce Wayne's 3 act journey would be.

They first focused on Batman Begins and the first part of that journey, not worrying about the rest.

They then took a look at that story would evolve in the middle chapter. They asked themselves, "can this be made into a good movie?" They decided yes, yes it can. So they crafted a story that would advance their story but once again made it a stand alone movie with a VERY satisfying conclusion. This gave them the freedom to walk away if they decided they wouldn't be able to make a good film out of that third and final part of Bruce's journey.

I think they were well-aware that Batman is a character who CAN be left in this perpetual, un-finished, always livin' to fight another day kind of state. So that's why TDK's ending worked so well as a little summation of Batman. Heck, the whole movie works in that sense because Batman is more of a static character reacting to The Joker and the events of the story. It's more like a Batman movie of the 90s in that sense. But at the same time the ending left some major unresolved issues. Conspiracy. A tarnished symbol. An ugly truth hidden beneath the surface.

So, they looked at all that and said...do we finish the story or leave it be? Can we resolve these issues and complete Bruce's arc as we originally envisioned it and can we make a good movie out of that?

Honest to God, that is how I interpret their approach. You can have a rough skeleton of something, but that doesn't automatically mean you know you have a movie worth making. Especially when you're a writer/director like Nolan and you need to have that inspiration in order to devote 2-3 years of your life to something.

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@Lobster

So why was Nolan saying for months that he might not come back? Why does he state in the documentary that he wasn't sure if he'd return and he felt like he said everything that he wanted with Dark Knight until a new story was proposed?

Or how about Dent? How Finch was originally meant to be Dent and that Nolan sort of regrets not using Harvey for film 3. Or how about all the "make one story at a time" comments? You don't know what they had planned for the future after they submitted their final script and filmed it before Ledger died. Nor do I. I can tell you now it wouldn't be the TDKR we know though. It took CONVINCING to get him to include a Batmobile in Begins and Catwoman and Bane in TDKR.
But see, all of that relate to details and supporting characters in the story. This is the stuff that Nolan very explicitly says he wanted to have the freedom discover along the way. What I'm referring to is the loose, 3-act arc for Bruce Wayne's character.

You could make 500 different variations on a Batman trilogy that followed the same loose structure. But all of them would still have that same core arc. That's what I'm referring to. Bruce Wayne's arc.

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Old 01-02-2014, 03:10 PM   #639
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@Lobster


So why was Nolan saying for months that he might not come back? Why does he state in the documentary that he wasn't sure if he'd return and he felt like he said everything that he wanted with Dark Knight until a new story was proposed?

Or how about Dent? How Finch was originally meant to be Dent and that Nolan sort of regrets not using Harvey for film 3. Or how about all the "make one story at a time" comments? You don't know what they had planned for the future after they submitted their final script and filmed it before Ledger died. Nor do I. I can tell you now it wouldn't be the TDKR we know though. It took CONVINCING to get him to include a Batmobile in Begins and Catwoman and Bane in TDKR.

After The Dark Knight, after the Joker, after Rachel's letter, after Gordon's speech, after "The Dark Knight" status, I'm sorry, that's pointing the audience in the direction of a darker, driven, more complex Batman. He wasn't running off to go build a megaton bomb, or be a sad bearded hermit who takes up archery, or live his Butler's dream in Italy. He's running because he can take it, because he's not Gotham's hero, or the type that gets a statue in honor of his service. He does it because he's the god damn Batman.
He never said he regretted it, he pretty much said the opposite.

As for what Nolan says. I guess you don't really understand what it takes to make a film, or Nolan's one movie at a time approach. Which you can still have while having a rough skeleton in your brain, like Lobster said. There's a fine line between getting to make a full feature film and having a super rough idea of an arc in your head IF you were given that chance.

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Old 01-02-2014, 03:12 PM   #640
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In there lies the contradiction Lobster.

You can't say one minute that you take each story one at a time and have no real plans for the future AND say you planned it from the beginning with a "rough" idea of where the story would go.

Do you realize how contradictory that sounds. I guarantee you the minds that came up with Begins weren't thinking of Alfred and Bruce at a cafe in Italy. Or that Bane and LoS 2.0 existed. Or Ra's losing His wife to the pit. I can guarantee in 2007, there was no lidicrous "Harvey Dent Act/Day" or a "Robin" or Bruce not doing jack **** for 8 years.

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Old 01-02-2014, 03:14 PM   #641
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Yeah, I mean like I was saying earlier...a few friends and I are planning to a short film this year. We started a Google Doc that we can all edit where we've just been unloading various ideas. We have like 6, 7 ideas with rough outlines that include endings.

But we're still in the thick of the process of deciding which one is the most worth making. We've taken one to full outline form and we're still trying to figure out if it's the best possible choice.

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In there lies the contradiction Lobster.

You can't say one minute that you take each story one at a time and have no real plans for the future AND say you planned it from the beginning with a "rough" idea of where the story would go.
ABSOLUTELY you can. Why the hell not? You can come up with major beats without knowing the details, that's how outlining works. I bet Chris and Goyer didn't know Joker would slam a guy's face into a pencil when they outlined "Joker meets with mob bosses". And yet it's one of the most memorable moments in the whole damn movie! Or even if they did, Jonah certainly embellished with many of his own details. He said so himself. You have to allow for that kind of spontaneity and creativity in collaborations.

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I guarantee you the minds that came up with Begins weren't thinking of Alfred and Bruce at a cafe in Italy. Or that Bane and LoS 2.0 existed. Or Ra's losing His wife to the pit. I can guarantee in 2007, there was no lidicrous "Harvey Dent Act/Day" or a "Robin" or Bruce not doing jack **** for 8 years.
OF COUAARRSHHH they weren't! Where do you ever see me suggesting they were?

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Old 01-02-2014, 03:14 PM   #642
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In there lies the contradiction Lobster.

You can't say one minute that you take each story one at a time and have no real plans for the future AND say you planned it from the beginning with a "rough" idea of where the story would go.

Do you realize how contradictory that sounds. I guarantee you the minds that came up with Begins weren't thinking of Alfred and Bruce at a cafe in Italy. Or that Bane and LoS 2.0 existed. Or Ra's losing His wife to the pit. I can guarantee in 2007, there was no lidicrous "Harvey Dent Act/Day" or a "Robin".
Like i said, you must not understand what it takes to make a film. You can absolutely have a rough sketch in your mind but still take it one movie at a time, not knowing if you'll ever make one. It takes a lot to make a movie. It takes years.

Ummm, and you can say the same for every single sequel that's ever been made. Just like TDK's details after Begins. Stop reaching.

Im sure during Begins era when they thought of the arc, they weren't even thinking of Joker or any specific rogues..just Bruce's journey. No cafe. No details. Just Batman getting deeper into his crusade during #2 and the final shot of Bruce smiling, having let go of Batman for #3.

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Old 01-02-2014, 03:16 PM   #643
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You're either thinking about the "next one" or you're not. That "rough, rough skleleton" nonsense is hilarious. What is Nolan going to say? That he just made TDKR up as he went along? No, he's going to tell the Lobsters and the Shauners what they want to hear with the journey crap. It's just like what Lucas said with his "I had it in my head as a rough all along". As a story teller, I'm sorry that is crap.

Like Shika stated, I think that right there was Nolan's Achilles heal with the Batman movies.

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Old 01-02-2014, 03:19 PM   #644
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You're either thinking about the "next one" or you're not. That "rough, rough skleleton" nonsense is hilarious. What is Nolan going to say? That he just made TDKR up as he went along? No, he's going to tell the Lobsters and the Shauners what they want to hear with the journey crap. It's just like what Lucas said with his "I had it in my head as a rough all along". As a story teller, I'm sorry that is crap.

Like Shika stated, I think that right there was Nolan's Achilles heal with the Batman movies.
It's not black and white like that. Believe what you want to believe, oh well.

Goyer said they imagined that final image of Bruce back during Begins and he had a lump in his throat when he finally saw the final edit of that scene because it was pretty much exactly what they thought up back in the day.

Be stubborn. It doesn't affect anyone else but you. I got the film that i wanted and im happy. Even the legendary Dennis O'Neill thought the arc was great. He's just a person in the business who knows you can change things from the comics and it can still serve the character correctly. And he also sees that comics can't do things that film can do, and vice versa. Unfortunately most people on here don't think the same way.


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Old 01-02-2014, 03:21 PM   #645
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Lucas and Nolan are two entirely different animals. Lucas actually does like to pretend that he had way more figured out than he actually did.

Meanwhile, Nolan is completely frank about his process. He openly admits that they approached one movie at a time as its own beast, but they had a few "goal posts" for major stuff.

Seriously...what is so hard to fathom about that? That's exactly how this type of storytelling should work! It's no different than Scott Snyder mapping out a 12 issue run...but then approaching each issue as its own story and discovering stuff along the way.

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Old 01-02-2014, 03:24 PM   #646
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And don't you guys love how Shauner's always falls back on the "well, you don't understand . . ." He was doing that all last night with C Lee. "Oh you must not understand". I'm not sure if it's intended to be patronizing, but it certainly comes off that way.

I do know that people talk out their ass and give easy, wishy washy responses during interviews intended to make the product your selling look better than it is. I do know that there are more than one ways to tell a story and not everyone crafts it like the great Christopher Nolan. Some of the best things are created the day before a due date in the mind of a writer. Anyone that's worked on a story will tell you that.

Shauner, no offense but you come off as a young, wet behind the ears kid that is eager to get into Hollywood than actually knowing what you're talking about. With all due respect I think you're the one who doesn't understand.




EDIT:

Hahaha, we're going to bring in the Goyer "lump in his throat" comment? Really? Hahaha, that guy is completely contradictory. During the Begins days, all he spewed was "Joker film 2", "Two-Face film 3". I'm sorry but if you think they had this retired Bruce/cafe thing back in Begins, I don't know what to say.

If they did, they would have had the "Alfred's Fantasy" IN Begins or Dark Knight atleast. You guys just eat it all up.


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Old 01-02-2014, 03:28 PM   #647
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And don't you guys love how Shauner's always falls back on the "well, you don't understand . . ." He was doing that all last night with C Lee. "Oh you must not understand". I'm not sure if it's intended to be patronizing, but it certainly comes off that way.

I do know that people talk out their ass and give easy, wishy washy responses during interviews intended to make the product your selling look better than it is. I do know that there are more than one ways to tell a story and not everyone crafts it like the great Christopher Nolan. Some of the best things are created the day before a due date in the mind of a writer. Anyone that's worked on a story will tell you that.

Shauner, no offense but you come off as a young, wet behind the ears kid that is eager to get into Hollywood than actually knowing what you're talking about. With all due respect I think your the one who doesn't understand.


Says the guy who comes off as completely immature when bashing Rises to death, thinking Bane is a pedophile and Alfred should die for caring about Bruce's well being after so many years of pain. Very mature stance.

Eager to get into Hollywood? I can care less about Hollywood. If you think it's so black and white then YOU are the person who doesn't understand.

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Old 01-02-2014, 03:29 PM   #648
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Maybe it's my Achille's heel that I do have such a high level of respect for Nolan, both as a person and a director, that I am happy to take him at is word when he says things like "it's hard to say whether we planned it as a trilogy or not". I really don't think he's lying, nor does he have any real reason to. Not when the quality of the work speaks for itself.

Maybe it's naive of me to take him at his word. But I really don't think so. To me, it would be far more suspect if he said stuff like, "Well actually... we had the whole thing planned out from Day 1. Gotcha suckaz!" But what he actually says just sounds reasonable and makes a fair amount of sense to me, that's why I believe it. He's openly admitting the contradiction there, milost. And the fact that it's a contradiction isn't bad in and of itself.

Also...you bash shauner111 for his tone, but it's not like you're some model of maturity of these boards milost, even if you are older.

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Old 01-02-2014, 03:31 PM   #649
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It's not even Nolan that i believe that much, it's more of Goyers description of that scene. Goyer comes off as an A-Hole at times, he's very direct. He doesn't care and so i believed his description.

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Old 01-02-2014, 03:37 PM   #650
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Lobster, I want your honest opinion. Have I been immature in the last 24 hours in regards to this topic? I even saw this morning how "nice" it was going. I didn't sense any hostility or beef between the two groups.

Any time Shauner doesn't agree he always falls back on the old, "well, you just don't understand". That's a cop out and his answer to nearly everyone that is a detractor of TDKR.

We've all stated why we like/don't like this damn thing, we all know why. There isn't "wrong" or a misunderstanding with those that dislike and rip this thing. That's our feelings on the subject that doesn't need explanation over and over again as these last few pages demonstrate.

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