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Old 01-02-2014, 03:43 PM   #651
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See, I freakin knew it. Nobody can say a damn thing about the TDK without saying they're simply nitpicking when the same crap said about TDKR is nitpicking of the highest order.
Did you ever consider that maybe the example you brought up is not true and actual nitpicking? Heck, it is technically not even nitpicking. Nitpicking consists of pointing out very small flaws that have no overall impact on the film. That scene doesn't even have that going for it, as I explained in my last response to you.

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How is it Bruces plane? It was never said that it was Bruces. When Alfred and Bruce were talking about the plan they said they would use smugglers to pull it off. Hence the planes.
Because it's Bruce's plane. We hear Alfred say "your plane is here for you" and then we see the plane stop and wait for Bruce to get on board. I think you confused it with a line of dialogue about Lau.

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I love how people can rationalize anything negative brought up against TDK but then turn around and say Rises is some sloppily written mess. You can think of reasons to fill in the logic of Bruce covering all his bases with smugglers but not with the clean slate?
I'm sorry if it upsets you that TDK isn't as flawed as TDKR.

Other than the explanation I gave you, what else do you even want me to say? Anyone can play the game you're playing. I can point out to any scene in any movie and when I get an explanation for it, I can just brush them off as a blind desperate attempt to defend the movie without anything to back it up.

No, I can't "think" of reasons to fill in the logic of Bruce getting from a boat to a plane because all the reasons are there. It's spelled out for you. There is nothing to think about; it's just there.

And finally, are you seriously comparing Bruce swimming from a boat to a plane with Bruce faking his death and walking around with no disguise in a huge tourist attraction next to Alfred? With the former being a trivial part of the film anyone would forget and the latter being a huge part that the whole film makes a big deal out of? I mean, I don't even know where to begin spelling out the differences to you.

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And this has probably been talked to death here, but I've haven't seen it yet. I still fail to see why Batman had to take the fall for Dents death. Seriously, WHY? Ya, I get the story reason, but it doesn't make any sense. Just say the Joker and his cronies did it. It's not like it would be a hard pill for Gotham to swallow. The fact is there is no good, logical reason why Batman and Gordon couldn't have done so.
I heard this before and it still doesn't make any sense. They couldn't have put the blame on anyone else. The police was already surrounding the building when Batman got there. The Joker and his cronies were already caught. Unless Batman and Gordon had a logical explanation how the Joker could be in two places at once or how Joker has henchmen that can teleport/turn invisible/disappear, no one would have bought that.

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The party scene, another probably brought up a million times, but also valid. The Joker is still in at the party terrorizing the guest and Batman is just having a sweet little chat with Rachel down below. I know there was scene shot of Joker leaving, but it's not in the movie so it can't be used as defense within the movie.
Funny you bring that up. I was going to make a bet with you that me - an avid fan of TDK - would be able to list a flaw the film has before you do. I was going to bring up the party scene, but you beat me to it so congrats . Yes, it is a flaw. The Joker shouldn't have been able to leave.

Here are two more flaws I can point out: How did the Joker know Batman was going to be in that interrogation room? Why did Coleman Reese wait so long to reveal Batman's identity? Neither of them are major flaws that hurt the film overall, but they're flaws nonetheless and they exist nonetheless. They are actual flaws, unlike the examples you're bringing up.

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The whole hospital scene is also a head-scratcher. So Dent, the cities most valuable and important person was just in a near fatal explosion caused by the Joker and he is given two guards outside of the hospital room. Why wasn't he in a private room?
He was.

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Why wasn't he the FIRST freakin' guy moved out? The Joker can waltz in with face paint on, shoot the guard and have a good long talk while NOBODY confirms that Dent is out of the building? Really? Seriously?
All the cops and guards at the hospital were taken out before the Joker had his good long talk with Harvey. They didn't just forget about him. They just didn't have the chance to get him out due to the Joker. Plus, Harvey left the hospital before it blew up.

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Not to mention the whole bomb situation. It's ok that the Joker can plant bombs in a hospital without a single person noticing them being planted or discovering one after the fact, that can be filled in with theorizing and excuses...but the clean slate concept is somehow sooo horribly dumb you can't do the same? Ok, whatever.
The film establishes two things that makes it work:

1) The corruption in Gotham and the way Joker takes advantage of it to carry out some of his plans.

2) The fact that Joker takes control of all of Gotham's mobs by the third act.

The clean slate is stupid in comparison because it wouldn't work at all in the internet age. I also brought up real-life examples as to why it wouldn't work (i.e. Tupac).

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And I'm not hating on TDK. I like TDK, I'm just trying to point out how I feel most of the nitpicking about Rises can be easily applied to TDK but most simply cover their ears and find any excuse to rationalize TDK while turning around and damning Rises.
I don't consider any of the stuff I brought up to be nitpicking, other than things I pointed out just for fun or in the name of sarcasm.

Though I have to ask all you "you hate it cuz it's not TDK" people...what caused such a sudden change of taste from BB/TDK to TDKR? It's the same production crew, same actors, same everything. Are you suggesting I suddenly changed my whole mindset on the franchise going into TDKR?

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Also, I know that these videos are done as jokes, but the "Everything wrong with TDK" video by Cinema-sins brings up totally valid plot and structural issues. Hell, there are more genuine issues brought up in that video then the one they did for Rises. But still, most fans simply brush off every inconsistency and head-scratching moment in TDK and rationalize them but barf hate upon Rises with little provocation.
You already linked that video to us once and we talked about it. Everything they brought up was stuff we just brought up. Other than like 2 or 3 things, everything was mostly not a flaw or was a nitpick they made a big deal out of.

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Old 01-02-2014, 03:44 PM   #652
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Oh well, im done with this thread. And you Milost. Later. Ill join georgec who has only been observing and not posting for the same reasons as why im leaving.

There's opinions and then there's misinterpretations. Certain facts are given and if you ignore them (the reasoning behind Bruce's retirement after TDK being a good example) then yes, you are wrong.

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Old 01-02-2014, 03:44 PM   #653
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Lobster, I want your honest opinion. Have I been immature in the last 24 hours in regards to this topic? I even saw this morning how "nice" it was going. I didn't sense any hostility or beef between the two groups.

Any time Shauner doesn't agree he always falls back on the old, "well, you just don't understand". That's a cop out and his answer to nearly everyone that is a detractor of TDKR.

We've all stated why we like/don't like this damn thing, we all know why. There isn't "wrong" or a misunderstanding with those that dislike and rip this thing. That's our feelings on the subject that doesn't need explanation over and over again as these last few pages demonstrate.
No more immature than anyone else here. We're debating a Batman movie on a Batman forum, and recycling many of the same debates at that. All's fair in love and Batman. I don't begrudge you for it.

But it's your style to ruffle feathers and stir the pot. You know it, I know it. It's why guys like The Joker love it when you post. You get even nastier than others are willing to get, but you probably say the stuff they all want to say. You spit on the movie and post laughing emoticons while doing it. That's fine and that's your choice. But that doesn't necessarily win you any "maturity" points either. That's why I wanted to defend shauner. I don't think his tone is any more confrontational and aggressive than yours.

He says "you don't get it". OK. And you're saying "you guys are so naive, you'll eat up whatever Nolan throws your way hahaha". I don't see much of a difference there.

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Old 01-02-2014, 05:15 PM   #654
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No more immature than anyone else here. We're debating a Batman movie on a Batman forum, and recycling many of the same debates at that. All's fair in love and Batman. I don't begrudge you for it.
I don't see why that makes us immature. Batman hasn't exclusively been a kids character in over 30 years.

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Old 01-02-2014, 05:26 PM   #655
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No, of course. But the amount of time we've spent discussing the same things over and over again...it's very nerdy at the very least. And I love us for that. But it's the type of thing where my girlfriend will occasionally roll her eyes or crack a joke at my expense whenever she sees that I'm posting on these boards...and I can't really blame her at the end of the day, haha. I could be doing something more productive with my time. I'm sure we all could. But, we have great debates here. I don't expect her to understand that. I'm also not going to pretend that this is the most mature way I can spend my time.

I didn't mean to imply that Batman is an immature character though, far from it.

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Old 01-02-2014, 05:32 PM   #656
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You tell her this is important.

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Old 01-02-2014, 05:42 PM   #657
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Did you ever consider that maybe the example you brought up is not true and actual nitpicking? Heck, it is technically not even nitpicking. Nitpicking consists of pointing out very small flaws that have no overall impact on the film. That scene doesn't even have that going for it, as I explained in my last response to you.



Because it's Bruce's plane. We hear Alfred say "your plane is here for you" and then we see the plane stop and wait for Bruce to get on board. I think you confused it with a line of dialogue about Lau.



I'm sorry if it upsets you that TDK isn't as flawed as TDKR.

Other than the explanation I gave you, what else do you even want me to say? Anyone can play the game you're playing. I can point out to any scene in any movie and when I get an explanation for it, I can just brush them off as a blind desperate attempt to defend the movie without anything to back it up.

No, I can't "think" of reasons to fill in the logic of Bruce getting from a boat to a plane because all the reasons are there. It's spelled out for you. There is nothing to think about; it's just there.

And finally, are you seriously comparing Bruce swimming from a boat to a plane with Bruce faking his death and walking around with no disguise in a huge tourist attraction next to Alfred? With the former being a trivial part of the film anyone would forget and the latter being a huge part that the whole film makes a big deal out of? I mean, I don't even know where to begin spelling out the differences to you.



I heard this before and it still doesn't make any sense. They couldn't have put the blame on anyone else. The police was already surrounding the building when Batman got there. The Joker and his cronies were already caught. Unless Batman and Gordon had a logical explanation how the Joker could be in two places at once or how Joker has henchmen that can teleport/turn invisible/disappear, no one would have bought that.



Funny you bring that up. I was going to make a bet with you that me - an avid fan of TDK - would be able to list a flaw the film has before you do. I was going to bring up the party scene, but you beat me to it so congrats . Yes, it is a flaw. The Joker shouldn't have been able to leave.

Here are two more flaws I can point out: How did the Joker know Batman was going to be in that interrogation room? Why did Coleman Reese wait so long to reveal Batman's identity? Neither of them are major flaws that hurt the film overall, but they're flaws nonetheless and they exist nonetheless. They are actual flaws, unlike the examples you're bringing up.



He was.



All the cops and guards at the hospital were taken out before the Joker had his good long talk with Harvey. They didn't just forget about him. They just didn't have the chance to get him out due to the Joker. Plus, Harvey left the hospital before it blew up.



The film establishes two things that makes it work:

1) The corruption in Gotham and the way Joker takes advantage of it to carry out some of his plans.

2) The fact that Joker takes control of all of Gotham's mobs by the third act.

The clean slate is stupid in comparison because it wouldn't work at all in the internet age. I also brought up real-life examples as to why it wouldn't work (i.e. Tupac).



I don't consider any of the stuff I brought up to be nitpicking, other than things I pointed out just for fun or in the name of sarcasm.

Though I have to ask all you "you hate it cuz it's not TDK" people...what caused such a sudden change of taste from BB/TDK to TDKR? It's the same production crew, same actors, same everything. Are you suggesting I suddenly changed my whole mindset on the franchise going into TDKR?



You already linked that video to us once and we talked about it. Everything they brought up was stuff we just brought up. Other than like 2 or 3 things, everything was mostly not a flaw or was a nitpick they made a big deal out of.
For one, it seems like you completely/or purposefully misread my point about the plane.

I'm not questioning Bruce swimming to a plane. I'm questioning Bruce swimming to a plane piloted by smugglers AS BRUCE WAYNE only to later be picked up AS BATMAN by arguably the same crew.

"Your plane is here." Ok, wow talk about reaching. It's just a figure of speech. tt doesn't literally mean "Bruce, the plane in which you purchased and own in now here to pick you up." And even it was his plane, who the hell was piloting it? Where did it take him?

You made the point yourself. The Joker had total control of the city. So it can be easily worked out by Batman and Gordon to pin the death of Dent on the Joker or part of his crew. The Jokers apprehension and Dents death weren't that far apart. So two of the smartest detectives in the city, one with money and resources, the other with authority, can't make up some cover story about how The Joker and/or one of his henchmen killed Dent? If the Jokers hold on the city was so absolute then it can be easily set up that one of his goons killed Dent at the time of Jokers arrest.


And yes, the guards DID forget about Dent. One runs off to check something out, leaving the other to get killed. So the whole hospital gets evacuated before Dent escapes and nobody, not one cop follows up on the order to get Dent out? That doesn't excuse the fact the most wanted person in Gotham, a bonafide terrorist, can walk in, face painted up, wearing a nurse outfit and kill people and plant bombs and have a conversation with the most important man in the city who ALREADY had a near death run in with the Joker.

There is no use arguing these points anymore. It doesn't matter how many videos, reviews, posts etc about the flaws in TDK come around, they will all be swept under the rug and rationalized. Forget the fact that The Joker is essentially omnipotent and omnipresent. Forget the fact that as soon as you start to put the pieces of his plot together they literally fall apart. Forget all the other WTF moments. Its The Dark Knight and it's perfect and it's the most best perfect piece of art to ever grace mankind.

If it's so easy to swallow that The Joker was able to infiltrate the entire underworld of Gotham and have faceless masses all under his belt that allow him to plant bombs in hospitals and ferries without any detection. Why is it so hard to swallow that the clean slate can erase ones history?

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Old 01-02-2014, 05:43 PM   #658
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You tell her this is important.
I might actually show her this whole exchange, haha.

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Old 01-02-2014, 06:46 PM   #659
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If it's so easy to swallow that The Joker was able to infiltrate the entire underworld of Gotham and have faceless masses all under his belt that allow him to plant bombs in hospitals and ferries without any detection. Why is it so hard to swallow that the clean slate can erase ones history?
First I will address this.No one is saying Bruce can't erase his existence on paper. He can. The point is that just erasing all documents is futile in today's internet age if you're someone as famous as Bruce Wayne walking around a huge tourist attraction with no disguise on. Not only does it go against all logic of the internet age, but it also goes against the "the world is too small for someone like Bruce Wayne to disappear" thing established in BB.

Before you accuse others of misreading your posts, make sure you properly understand the posts of the ones you respond to.

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For one, it seems like you completely/or purposefully misread my point about the plane.

I'm not questioning Bruce swimming to a plane. I'm questioning Bruce swimming to a plane piloted by smugglers AS BRUCE WAYNE only to later be picked up AS BATMAN by arguably the same crew.

"Your plane is here." Ok, wow talk about reaching. It's just a figure of speech. tt doesn't literally mean "Bruce, the plane in which you purchased and own in now here to pick you up." And even it was his plane, who the hell was piloting it? Where did it take him?
First of all, the plane that picked up Bruce Wayne is not the same plane that picked up Batman. The second plane was far bigger than the first.

Second of all, there were no smugglers on the plane Bruce got picked up from (on the boat). I already made that clear. That was the second plane - the one which picked him up with Lau. The one driven by South Korean smugglers. If you're going to ask if they know Bruce is Batman, they don't, since they never see Bruce without the mask off.

And who was piloting it? Umm...a pilot he hired? Where did he take him? Umm...obviously Hong Kong? Ugh, you're reaching for answers to spoon-fed questions.

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You made the point yourself. The Joker had total control of the city. So it can be easily worked out by Batman and Gordon to pin the death of Dent on the Joker or part of his crew. The Jokers apprehension and Dents death weren't that far apart. So two of the smartest detectives in the city, one with money and resources, the other with authority, can't make up some cover story about how The Joker and/or one of his henchmen killed Dent? If the Jokers hold on the city was so absolute then it can be easily set up that one of his goons killed Dent at the time of Jokers arrest.


No it can't. The cops were already there surrounding the building before Batman got there from his duel with the Joker. They already knew there was someone in the building holding Gordon and his family at gunpoint. The Joker was already caught so he had an alibi. The building was surrounded so there was no way in or out, which means any one of Joker's henchmen would have been spotted had they tried to go in or tried to get out. Batman got in because he is the only one physically capable of doing so undetected. Thus the only suspects were Batman and Harvey. There is no way they could have blamed it on any Joker henchman regardless of how much you want to grasp at that straw.

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And yes, the guards DID forget about Dent. One runs off to check something out, leaving the other to get killed.
He runs off to let the hospital/police know that they have to move Dent and that's when he gets killed by the Joker.

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So the whole hospital gets evacuated before Dent escapes and nobody, not one cop follows up on the order to get Dent out?
Yes because all the cops are dead. Courtesy of the Joker.

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That doesn't excuse the fact the most wanted person in Gotham, a bonafide terrorist, can walk in, face painted up, wearing a nurse outfit and kill people and plant bombs and have a conversation with the most important man in the city who ALREADY had a near death run in with the Joker.
I'm going to assume you're not too familiar with the Joker then. What you just described is the Joker on a daily basis. The Joker literally does this all the time. He has the tactics and wits to take out entire groups of people just by himself. This will never ever change about the Joker regardless of how realistic a Batman film will get.

The most recent story in the comics where he did this was "Death of the Family". He takes out the power in the GCPD building and then takes out all the cops that are there, sparing only Gordon.

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There is no use arguing these points anymore. It doesn't matter how many videos, reviews, posts etc about the flaws in TDK come around, they will all be swept under the rug and rationalized. Forget the fact that The Joker is essentially omnipotent and omnipresent. Forget the fact that as soon as you start to put the pieces of his plot together they literally fall apart. Forget all the other WTF moments. Its The Dark Knight and it's perfect and it's the most best perfect piece of art to ever grace mankind.
Again, what do you expect from people? Regardless of whatever explanation I give you, you're only to keep repeating that. Like I said, anyone can play the game you're playing. I can point out to any scene in any movie and when I get an explanation for it, I can just brush them off as a blind desperate attempt to defend the movie without anything to back it up.

Seriously. Any movie. You name it and I can point out flaws that aren't really there (or are just nitpicks) and then when I get answers, I can just say "You're trying to rationalize the film". It means nothing.

You still haven't answered my question. What exactly caused the shift from "OMG this is the Holy Grail of movies" (TDK) to TDKR?

BTW I'd like to point out once again that, despite me thinking TDK is "a perfect masterpiece with no flaws", I did point out some flaws in my last post.


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Old 01-02-2014, 07:28 PM   #660
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LOL. I have been reading this thread since yesterday. All I have to say right now is that I don't have a problem with the ending in and of itself. I am fine with Batman being happy. What I do have a problem with is how that was accomplished. I still don't understand why Bruce would just ditch the city to go live in Europe or wherever after the events of the film? It doesn't make any sense. He was longing for Gotham in the Pit. When he finally gets back and helps defeat Bane and blandsville (Tatelia), he just decides that the best thing to do is fake his own death (why?) and ditch Gotham (what?) to go with Catwoman (!) because she is sexy or something. Also, do they have jobs now? are they living off of stolen goods?

I really don't like this dramatic notion that Bruce needs to escape Gotham because it has only brought him pain and tragedy. Doesn't he care about the people he has been trying to save all along? "Well Gothamites, I know you have been through hell for the past 5 months, what with living under the rule of a nightmarish madman, apparently being unable to freely roam the streets and always fearing that one of these days someone will blow up the city, but I gotta go now. I did my part. Italy awaits!" It's like Gotham is just a generic city that needs saving. Bruce seemed really distraught in the Pit, seeing the news about Gotham. You'd think he would at least stay and I dunno, do something with the Wayne legacy.

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Old 01-02-2014, 07:40 PM   #661
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Well, a nice little chunk of those very people he was fighting to save joined up with Bane's revolution. Of course, in the end he saves them all anyway. Interesting food for thought.

I tend to agree with Selina when she says he doesn't owe them anymore. At least, not after he gets them out of that mess. The bomb was most definitely his responsibility.

I also tend to think that Gotham will go through a Batman-less period for a while, during the rebuilding stage. I like to think that Gordon is right, and a better, stronger Gotham will emerge in the wake of the siege. Possibly united by Batman's sacrifice. But of course, he's entrusted one of "the people" to carry the torch forward should it ever be necessary.

I think it's just a matter of Bruce realizing "now's my time." He realized he had something to live for outside of Batman, a relationship he wanted to pursue with a kindred spirit looking for a new start herself. On top of that I think he realized he didn't have much more to give. And he certainly realized that he didn't want to die in the cowl. So he took the opportunity to leave his final mark and finally escape Gotham.

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Old 01-02-2014, 08:21 PM   #662
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First I will address this.No one is saying Bruce can't erase his existence on paper. He can. The point is that just erasing all documents is futile in today's internet age if you're someone as famous as Bruce Wayne walking around a huge tourist attraction with no disguise on. Not only does it go against all logic of the internet age, but it also goes against the "the world is too small for someone like Bruce Wayne to disappear" thing established in BB.

Before you accuse others of misreading your posts, make sure you properly understand the posts of the ones you respond to.



First of all, the plane that picked up Bruce Wayne is not the same plane that picked up Batman. The second plane was far bigger than the first.

Second of all, there were no smugglers on the plane Bruce got picked up from (on the boat). I already made that clear. That was the second plane - the one which picked him up with Lau. The one driven by South Korean smugglers. If you're going to ask if they know Bruce is Batman, they don't, since they never see Bruce without the mask off.

And who was piloting it? Umm...a pilot he hired? Where did he take him? Umm...obviously Hong Kong? Ugh, you're reaching for answers to spoon-fed questions.





No it can't. The cops were already there surrounding the building before Batman got there from his duel with the Joker. They already knew there was someone in the building holding Gordon and his family at gunpoint. The Joker was already caught so he had an alibi. The building was surrounded so there was no way in or out, which means any one of Joker's henchmen would have been spotted had they tried to go in or tried to get out. Batman got in because he is the only one physically capable of doing so undetected. Thus the only suspects were Batman and Harvey. There is no way they could have blamed it on any Joker henchman regardless of how much you want to grasp at that straw.



He runs off to let the hospital/police know that they have to move Dent and that's when he gets killed by the Joker.



Yes because all the cops are dead. Courtesy of the Joker.



I'm going to assume you're not too familiar with the Joker then. What you just described is the Joker on a daily basis. The Joker literally does this all the time. He has the tactics and wits to take out entire groups of people just by himself. This will never ever change about the Joker regardless of how realistic a Batman film will get.

The most recent story in the comics where he did this was "Death of the Family". He takes out the power in the GCPD building and then takes out all the cops that are there, sparing only Gordon.



Again, what do you expect from people? Regardless of whatever explanation I give you, you're only to keep repeating that. Like I said, anyone can play the game you're playing. I can point out to any scene in any movie and when I get an explanation for it, I can just brush them off as a blind desperate attempt to defend the movie without anything to back it up.

Seriously. Any movie. You name it and I can point out flaws that aren't really there (or are just nitpicks) and then when I get answers, I can just say "You're trying to rationalize the film". It means nothing.

You still haven't answered my question. What exactly caused the shift from "OMG this is the Holy Grail of movies" (TDK) to TDKR?

BTW I'd like to point out once again that, despite me thinking TDK is "a perfect masterpiece with no flaws", I did point out some flaws in my last post.
I know the planes were different. That is neither here nor there. All that is said is "We'll get the Korean smugglers". Then Bruce is jumping off his yacht full of people and swimming to a sketchy ass plane. Maybe it was somebody totally separate from the smugglers, maybe not. But considering not a single THING is mentioned indicating the plane is something other than the smugglers, we can assume that is what it is.

Batman: "We didn't get here in time. It appears the Jokers men got him before we could stop it."
Gordon: "Yup, what he said."

Bingo, problem solved. Again, Considering what the Joker pulled off in this film would people really say "Nah, The Joker was innocent! He didn't kill Dent! FREE JOKER!!!!"

Two cops to guard the most important man in the city who was already injured by the terrorist responsible for putting the whole city in a panic. Not to mention all the important people who already bit the dust, Dents partner and girlfriend included. Not very smart. Also not very smart that NOBODY noticed the ENTIRE Honor Guard was replaced by complete strangers....who just happened to know the procedures of an event like that...man, the Joker sure is a busy guy. Where was the freakin' security? The Mayors life was just threatened, a judge and the Commissioner were killed and not a soul thinks "Hey, these guys aren't our guys?! Hey, that guy has crazy SCARS on his face...eh, probably nothing.." Oh, and why the HELL did Bruce get go there without any sort of disguise?

What caused the shift you ask? Rises wasn't TDK 2.0. I'm not saying that applies to everyone, so stop right there. But I do totally think it's a pretty big factor on these here interwebz.

And you're simply proving my point. To you, I'm "playing a game" and the problems I'm bringing up can be explained. JUST LIKE MUST OF THE COMPLAINTS AIMED AT TDKR! Yet for some reason the little inconsistencies and unanswered questions in Rises are treated like sacrilege when, as I said, in TDK they are swept under the rug with conjecture, guessing and assumption. You're using assumptions and filling in gaps with very little to no real information given in the film, just like defenders of Rises do.

Both films have logical gaps or plot points that are only half explained but Rises inexplicably gets the brunt of the hate. I honestly, 100% cannot fathom how people can just except that the Joker can do what he did when he would essentially need a TARDIS to pull it all off but people get stuck on the logistics of a Clean Slate and how Bruce got into Gotham. You say "he's the Joker thats why he can do it!!!!"

Well ok, "HE'S THE BATMAN! HE CAN DO IT!!!!"


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Old 01-02-2014, 08:41 PM   #663
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I don't think Batman would refuse to save people because they became "looters" at some point. I also got the impression that most of those doing the looting where criminals, or very poor people who were being manipulated by Bane. He wants to save Gotham, and that includes every gothamite (Well, maybe not Tatelia).

Selina is a very self interested woman, who was looking after her own neck, and wanted Batman to do the same for himself so that they could run away together. Batman refuses. Up to this point, he is still willing to do everything for Gotham, and is consistent with his desire to protect the city as shown in previous scenes. But later he decides that he actually wants to go away with Catwoman.

I don't think handing Johnny Blake the keys to the Batcave is exactly making sure that someone will "carry the torch forward". Blake is just a cop. A well meaning cop, but he has no training, and is, as shown in the film, dependent on guns to be efficient. It just seems crazy that Bruce is ready to trust this young man (who he barely knows...Apparently all you need to do to convince Batman to hand over the mantle is to deduce the guess his secret identity and to be an enraged orphan) with the burden of being The Batman, or that he would want anyone to have that burden, but he himself can put the burden behind and go away with Catwoman. A Batman Beyond type of scenario would have been adequate. It seems like Nolan found himself in love with this whole "anyone can be Batman", which is, IMO, WRONG and actually goes against what was depicted in the previous movies. "Anyone can be a hero" though, is more fitting.

Anyway, Selina. I just don't think that relationship works. This is a woman who:

- Lied her way into his mansion to stole his fingerprints so that Bane and Tatelia could make Bruce lose his money, leading to Tatelia being put in charge of Wayne enterprises and getting access to the Nuke, which would be in turn used to hold Gotham hostage for five months, leading to multiple executions and economic collapse, not to mention deepening hostilities between the rich and the poor....And all that. Not being content with doing the job she was supposed to do, she also decides to steal Martha Wayne's iconic neck pearlace, and item that is of inmense value to Bruce.

- Threatened Bruce during the masked ball for being teh rich and stole his Murcielago Lamborghini just for fun... (Or because she felt "entitled" to do so?).

- Is depicted as someone who enjoys killing.

- Handed Batman directly to Bane, resulting in Bruce getting his back broken and being put into the Pit for five months.

- Basically declares that once she has helped clear the way for people to escape, she is stealing the Batpod because why not? She also refuses to stay and help Batman clear the mess she enabled by helping Bane and Tatelia, wheter she knew what they were going to do or not. At least she does go back and help Bats in the final battle, saving his life, too.

So....Yeah. I understand Bruce may be attracted to her at first, but I just don't see how he can actually trust her that much after the events of the movie. He doesn't have to hold her responsible for a lot of the things that she had a hand in, but to go and live up Alfred's fantasy of a potential "wife" with Catwoman is something I just cannot buy.

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Old 01-02-2014, 10:24 PM   #664
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^^

To be fair, I'm not saying Bruce is just ambivalent about Gotham by the end. I just thought it was interesting food for thought. I think he still believes in the fundamental goodness of people. And he does save everyone, after all. I think he very consciously decides to be a "martyr" because the time has finally come that Batman is the hero/symbol that Gotham both needs and deserves. The symbol can finally exist as the everlasting force that Bruce once mused about becoming, and as a perpetual reminder that heroism can come from anywhere. Again that's the point of the message, not that any old person can dress up and be Batman. "Batman could be anyone" NOT "Anyone can be Batman". Those two things do not have the same meaning, and yet without fail it is the most commonly misquoted line of the moive. But ideas of self-sacrifice, and that heroism can come from anyone and anywhere and save you in your darkest hour- those are big ideas, ideas that create legends and religions, ideas a city can rally behind, ideas a new, better city can be rebuilt and founded upon.

But I think after the events of TDKR Gotham has just reached a point where it needs to heal on its own, and I see him leaving Blake the keys to the Bat-cave as something of a contingency plan for the future. Because Bruce isn't naive enough to think that peace can last forever, and because he trusts him- both as a fellow orphan, as a cop and as one of the primary heroes during Bane's siege. But Blake is very young, probably early 20s. Bruce didn't debut as Batman until he was 29. So Blake has a ways to go before he's truly ready. But he also has time to train, if that's the path he chooses to take. Or, maybe he'll strictly become a detective, aiding the GCPD via the Bat-computer. It doesn't really matter because Blake's story isn't really important. He's just meant to embody future generations carrying forward the symbol, cementing Bruce Wayne's immortality.

As for your thoughts on Selina, I'll just agree to disagree. I think a thief with a heart of gold is the perfect foil for Bruce Wayne and the perfect love interest for him. So yeah, I'm a big time Bruce/Selina shipper. But every fan has their own opinion on that.

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Old 01-03-2014, 07:39 AM   #665
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It's fine for Batman to become a martyr that could inspire future generations. I just don't see the need for Bruce Wayne to exile himself though. He just leaves. He doesnt even try to prove foul play when it comes to his money. Bruce is no materialist, but to just let his fortune go to waste is kinda crazy. Especially since he could so much with it. The city is arguably in a worst state than it was at the end of TDK. But no. He dies a drunken, bat-s*** crazy ex billionare. Not to mentioon he has a habit of appearing and disappearing whenever Batman does. Batman is taken out? Bruce disappears. Batman dies? Bruce dies too! Way to protect your secret identity Bruce.

Heroism can come from anywhere, yes. But "Batman could be anyone" ? According to the previous films...Nope. You have to train your mind and body. You also need money. The "will" will only get you so far. Ask Brian Douglas. There's quite a gap between small time heroism and the kind of things Batman does. His story at the end may not be important, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have to make sense.

Regarding Selina...I just think she's there at the end to service that Cafe fantasy. I don't think happiness = being with a woman. That's a bit of a superficial way of looking at happiness. Yes, obviously love is great, but look at Gordon. His wife dumps him and takes the kids. He's still just happy that his friend survived at the end. All he gets at the end is the satisfaction that he helped saved the city. Granted, the entire trilogy tells us that for Bruce being with Rachel/a woman = happiness. I just wish he had ended up with some random woman. It didn't need to be Selina. But I would've preferred a Bruce Wayne who stays, follows in his father's footsteps and helps Gotham to get back on it's feet, happy that he set the wheels of change in motion as the Batman, and making sure that the city has a potential future protector in the form of Blake, who could use a father figure.

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Old 01-03-2014, 09:20 AM   #666
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Never understood the people saying that Robin would not be a good successor to Bruce, as these are the same people who think that Bruce is not a good detective and fighter in these films. Some people on SHH think that Bruce is dumb in these films.

Robin is a cop who has risen to become an actual DETECTIVE in the film, who knows the police department from the INSIDE, has worked closely with James Gordon, knows the real BRUCE WAYNE (i.e. the previous BATMAN), and has been with Bruce Wayne when he is Batman. He also has shown phenomenal leadership skills and bravery. He has been left all of Bruce's tech and the Batcave. If Bruce is really as awful as some on here think he is (just some average guy with good tech according to some) then why can't Robin be the next Batman?

John Blake has more potential as a detective than Bruce Wayne.
Tim Drake has more potential as a detective than Bruce Wayne.

John Blake is a mix of Tim Drake, Dick Grayson, Jason Todd and Damian Wayne. The major difference here is that Bale's Batman actually puts his ego aside to think about what is best for Batman and Gotham long-term (he also turns Wayne Manor into an orphanage at the end, he's actually affecting Gotham, providing something for the youth, an actual long-term impact, and also ensuring less disadvantaged kids get into crime) and as he said in Batman Begins: "as a symbol I can be incorruptible (The Dark Knight), I can be everlasting (The Dark Knight Rises)." At the end of The Dark Knight Rises, he makes Batman everlasting, and you could argue that Robin, who is shown as one of the most intelligent people in the entire trilogy, becoming the next Batman is in some ways an IMPROVEMENT over Bruce Wayne. If you want to complain about John Blake, then complain about the fact that he is OVERPOWERED, NOT that he is not good enough to be the next Batman.

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Old 01-03-2014, 12:41 PM   #667
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John Blake has more potential as a detective than Bruce Wayne.

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Old 01-03-2014, 12:45 PM   #668
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Yeah if that was true that would be an even bigger character error since Bruce is supposed to be the world's greatest detective, and not by feeling things in his bones and stuff!

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Old 01-03-2014, 01:21 PM   #669
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It's fine for Batman to become a martyr that could inspire future generations. I just don't see the need for Bruce Wayne to exile himself though. He just leaves. He doesnt even try to prove foul play when it comes to his money. Bruce is no materialist, but to just let his fortune go to waste is kinda crazy. Especially since he could so much with it. The city is arguably in a worst state than it was at the end of TDK. But no. He dies a drunken, bat-s*** crazy ex billionare. Not to mentioon he has a habit of appearing and disappearing whenever Batman does. Batman is taken out? Bruce disappears. Batman dies? Bruce dies too! Way to protect your secret identity Bruce.
Bruce has got to be an assumed victim of the siege. On top of that he had a small funeral with only his "surrogate family" in attendance...clearly Gotham has bigger fish to fry that determining how and when Bruce died, and he'll inevitably be counted among the dead of "Gotham's elite", likely frozen at the bottom of the river.

On top of that, as I posted a few pages ago- I think becoming disconnected from his wealth is probably the best thing that could ever happen to him and the only way he can truly be free. I do suspect that Selina has "saved for retirement" and that's the money they're living off of though.

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Heroism can come from anywhere, yes. But "Batman could be anyone" ? According to the previous films...Nope. You have to train your mind and body. You also need money. The "will" will only get you so far. Ask Brian Douglas. There's quite a gap between small time heroism and the kind of things Batman does. His story at the end may not be important, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have to make sense.
Again, this line keeps getting taken out of context. Here's out it plays out in the film...

Bruce Wayne: The idea was to be a symbol. Batman could be anybody. That was the point.

This is NOT the same thing as Bruce thinking anybody could go out and literally BE Batman. Obviously his "HOCKEY PAHHHDS" response in TDK make that clear. What Bruce is speaking to is the desire to be a SYMBOL that goodness can rise from anywhere, even within a corrupt city. He wanted the people of Gotham to believe that good still exists, and he his used a symbol and anonymity to get that across. He's speaking to Gotham's point of view...the point of view he wanted them to have. To shake them out of apathy and inspire them. It's impossible to interpret this line without relating it to the prior films because Bruce is reminiscing on the past there, with a sense of nostalgia even.

The fact that he ends up entrusting Blake at the end just pushes that theme a little further, because in a sense John Blake is the "every man". But at the same time, he's really not the every man. He is Nolan's Robin after all. As James H pointed out, he proves to be one of the smartest people in the whole trilogy and quickly rises to the rank of Gordon's go-to guy in Batman's absence. And clearly, despite being a believer in the Batman he wasn't dumb enough to put on hockey pads and try to be a vigilante on his own. He instead chose to go through the system and become a cop, which is probably what Brian and his buddies should've done. Or at least helped the community in some other, less violent way if the force was still too corrupt at that time.

He shows good instincts and quick-thinking throughout the film. Again I have to agree with James H- if one is to criticize his character, criticize him for being a "too perfect" Gary Stu character. I've heard that criticism before, and it's fair and frankly, it's true. Because as is, I think the film did a good job showing that he has great potential, at least as a detective and as someone with strong sense of justice and the will to act even in the face of widespread apathy. And that's what he represents- an indication of the future that we can never quite know. The potential for a better tomorrow.

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Regarding Selina...I just think she's there at the end to service that Cafe fantasy. I don't think happiness = being with a woman. That's a bit of a superficial way of looking at happiness. Yes, obviously love is great, but look at Gordon. His wife dumps him and takes the kids. He's still just happy that his friend survived at the end. All he gets at the end is the satisfaction that he helped saved the city. Granted, the entire trilogy tells us that for Bruce being with Rachel/a woman = happiness. I just wish he had ended up with some random woman. It didn't need to be Selina. But I would've preferred a Bruce Wayne who stays, follows in his father's footsteps and helps Gotham to get back on it's feet, happy that he set the wheels of change in motion as the Batman, and making sure that the city has a potential future protector in the form of Blake, who could use a father figure.
There's are fair comments regarding Selina. Obviously it's true that happiness needn't be equated with a romantic relationship. But I do think that it helps as an indication that he's moved on. He could've been sitting at that table alone and it would still be just as triumphant. Selina being there is a nice bonus, that frankly I think he deserves after everything his soul has been through.

That said, I think your version of the ending could've worked too. But in inevitably would've set people up to think that it's a "Batman and Robin together!" ending rather than a "Bruce moves on, passes the torch" ending. In other words one is more suggestive of a sequel and further stories of the adventures of Batman and "Robin", while the other closes the book a little more firmly on Bruce Wayne's story.

At least Blake does have a father figure of sorts in Fr. Reilly, who's kind of like his Alfred and will probably even live in Wayne Manor too now that it's the new orphanage.

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Old 01-03-2014, 01:34 PM   #670
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and not by feeling things in his bones and stuff!

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Old 01-03-2014, 01:53 PM   #671
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John Blake is a mix of all the various different Robins, but mainly has the characteristics of Tim Drake. Bruce himself has said that Tim has more potential as a detective. Drake can outsmart Ra's Al Ghul. Ra's even calls him "detective".

Doesn't Blake talk about polyisobutylene and something about how it is used in explosives, before the stadium scene? There are little hints throughout the film that this guy knows his stuff. A big contrast between him and the young cop in the Return of the Batman scene, who is all "What's going on with the lights?" and "sorry" lol.

Just like Drake, Blake has more potential as a detective. Bruce knows it too, both in the comics and in the film.

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Old 01-03-2014, 03:52 PM   #672
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Not sure if you guys don't like this version of Robin, or just the character of Robin in general (some people do prefer Batman without Robin), but anyway you may have a new Robin in the Batman vs Superman film or in the solo Batman films. You may get the Robin you want. You will have guys like Zack Snyder and Ben Affleck involved, so can't go wrong really. The scenes between Ben Affleck and whatever other phenomenal actor they choose to play Robin will be mesmerising and will blow you away. It will make you forget all about that disaster that involved Christian Bale and Joseph Gordon-Levitt. And I am sure that Zack Snyder will find a gap in the scenes of explosions to show a scene where we have an in-depth look at the relationship between Batman and Robin, and the similarities of the past of these two iconic characters.

If Snyder wants the fanbase to be on his side, he will have a Robin who is happy to be Batman's little ******, er sorry, little assistant forever. Shouldn't be too smart, shouldn't show too much ambition, can't have any of that. Also, should never be the next Batman. He should know his place. Or, even better, have Robin be the next Batman, be shown to be unworthy of being Batman, then have him going back to being Batman's little assistant again. Would be interesting character development.

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Old 01-03-2014, 04:16 PM   #673
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John Blake is a mix of all the various different Robins, but mainly has the characteristics of Tim Drake. Bruce himself has said that Tim has more potential as a detective. Drake can outsmart Ra's Al Ghul. Ra's even calls him "detective".

Doesn't Blake talk about polyisobutylene and something about how it is used in explosives, before the stadium scene? There are little hints throughout the film that this guy knows his stuff. A big contrast between him and the young cop in the Return of the Batman scene, who is all "What's going on with the lights?" and "sorry" lol.

Just like Drake, Blake has more potential as a detective. Bruce knows it too, both in the comics and in the film.
Your comparisons to Tim Drake are falling flat here for me. He was not Tim Drake, he didn't outsmart Ra's Al Ghul, and his biggest piece of "detective work" in TDKR was one of the most ludicrous pieces of writing ever put on film, and a much warranted target of criticism.

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Old 01-03-2014, 04:32 PM   #674
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I know the planes were different. That is neither here nor there. All that is said is "We'll get the Korean smugglers". Then Bruce is jumping off his yacht full of people and swimming to a sketchy ass plane. Maybe it was somebody totally separate from the smugglers, maybe not. But considering not a single THING is mentioned indicating the plane is something other than the smugglers, we can assume that is what it is.
Alright, fair enough. Yeah, I guess you can count that as a flaw. That scene should have been executed better to make things more clear. Though it is nowhere as big of a part of the film as TDKR's ending, so I don't buy the original analogy between this and that scene in the first place. Even if, for the sake of argument, both of those scenes are equally bad, you're still comparing something trivial in TDK to something in TDKR that the movie itself made a big deal out of.

Quote:
Batman: "We didn't get here in time. It appears the Jokers men got him before we could stop it."
Gordon: "Yup, what he said."

Bingo, problem solved. Again, Considering what the Joker pulled off in this film would people really say "Nah, The Joker was innocent! He didn't kill Dent! FREE JOKER!!!!"


How? When the police already got there, Gordon was already in the building with Harvey. They knew there was someone in there holding Gordon at gunpoint and even heard gunshots. That's why they were there in the first place. There was no way in and out of the building.

Nothing about your pitch makes any logical sense. Your whole proposed solution is literally for Gordon to say that the Joker (or someone working for him) magically got in and out of the building. That would be an actual plot hole btw.

Quote:
Two cops to guard the most important man in the city who was already injured by the terrorist responsible for putting the whole city in a panic. Not to mention all the important people who already bit the dust, Dents partner and girlfriend included. Not very smart.
Two cops at Dent's door. There were several other cops throughout the whole hospital. Where were they, you might ask? Like I said in my last 100 posts, the Joker took them all out.

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Also not very smart that NOBODY noticed the ENTIRE Honor Guard was replaced by complete strangers....who just happened to know the procedures of an event like that...man, the Joker sure is a busy guy.
Honestly, it is not that hard to pull off. Any tactical genius can pull it off. And that's exactly what the Joker is.

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Where was the freakin' security?
Right there. The whole street was covered in cops.

Quote:
The Mayors life was just threatened, a judge and the Commissioner were killed and not a soul thinks "Hey, these guys aren't our guys?! Hey, that guy has crazy SCARS on his face...eh, probably nothing.."
The Honor Guards are composed of volunteers. It is not always the same people. It doesn't work that way. You don't just point at a fellow police officer and say "That guy is an Honor Guard". You can have Honor Guards that you personally don't know.

As for the scars, they don't prove anything. 1) It's not some rocket science mystery as to why a cop would have scars and 2) No one has seen the Joker without makeup + there are no clear photos/videos of him until he gets captured by Gordon.

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Oh, and why the HELL did Bruce get go there without any sort of disguise?
Are you kidding? Me thinks you should read more Batman comics because Bruce does this all the freakin' time during the day. He essentially does the same thing here that he did in Year One (even dressed almost exactly the same). Heck, what he did in Year One was way worse because he actually interacted with people that could see him.

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What caused the shift you ask? Rises wasn't TDK 2.0. I'm not saying that applies to everyone, so stop right there. But I do totally think it's a pretty big factor on these here interwebz.
Usually I end the discussion whenever I see people resort to this redundant pathetic excuse of an argument. But since I like you and you're so special, I'm going to make an exception.

Though I have to ask: If your whole argument is that TDKR is crapped on by people like me just because it isn't as good as TDK, doesn't that disprove your "TDK has just as many flaws as TDKR" hypothesis?

Quote:
And you're simply proving my point. To you, I'm "playing a game" and the problems I'm bringing up can be explained.

JUST LIKE MUST OF THE COMPLAINTS AIMED AT TDKR! Yet for some reason the little inconsistencies and unanswered questions in Rises are treated like sacrilege when, as I said, in TDK they are swept under the rug with conjecture, guessing and assumption. You're using assumptions and filling in gaps with very little to no real information given in the film, just like defenders of Rises do.
Because they can be explained. Everything you brought up can be explained, other than that plane thing that I admitted needed better execution.

Seriously, what the hell do you want from me? I already gave you valid explanations on everything you brought up. I admitted you being right whenever you were right (i.e. plane thing needing better execution and Joker somehow getting away from the party). I even listed some other flaws I found in TDK on the side (Reese waiting so long to reveal Batman's identity and Joker knowing Batman was going to be in the interrogation room). Yet all you keep saying over and over again is "Y'all think TDK is teh perfect masterpiece and has no flaws!"

There is no point to continuing this. You clearly won't be satisfied until you see me type "Yes, TDKR is of the same brilliance as TDK, the Joker has magic powers, and you have a bigger penis" regardless of how many times I explain things to you. So why should I bother?

Quote:
Both films have logical gaps or plot points that are only half explained but Rises inexplicably gets the brunt of the hate. I honestly, 100% cannot fathom how people can just except that the Joker can do what he did when he would essentially need a TARDIS to pull it all off but people get stuck on the logistics of a Clean Slate and how Bruce got into Gotham. You say "he's the Joker thats why he can do it!!!!"

Well ok, "HE'S THE BATMAN! HE CAN DO IT!!!!"
I already explained to you the problem with the clean slate thing. I won't repeat myself.

As for "he's the Joker, he can do it", yes he can do it. I'm sorry if you can't understand the huge difference between a tactical genius taking out a bunch of out-of-shape cops with simple weapons and another tactical genius travelling halfway across the world with nothing on him only to easily get in despite the city being under the surveillance of someone on par with him.

Everything you brought up is either:
1) Not a flaw because the film explains it.
2) Nitpicks and trivial parts of the film that don't need much of an explanation, and the same thing can't be said for the things I brought up in TDKR.

You don't see me make a big deal out of the things you brought up for the same reason you don't see me make a big deal out of Bruce taking his sweet time shaving and lighting that giant logo on the bridge despite there being a time bomb - because it's something so small that it is insignificant.

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Old 01-03-2014, 04:50 PM   #675
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Default Re: The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

I was reading the blog of screenwriter Todd Alcott, and he has a nice part by part analysis of TDKR (in addition to a great writeup on TDK from 2008). I thought this little excerpt about the whole Blake thing was interesting.

Quote:
With Jim Gordon hospitalized, John Blake emerges as a significant secondary protagonist in The Dark Knight Rises a kind of “young Gordon.” What does Blake want? Blake wants Bruce Wayne to stop sitting around feeling sorry for himself and become Batman again.

Now then. Some have expressed discomfort with the idea that John Blake, Rookie Cop, knows that Bruce Wayne is Batman while neither Jim Gordon nor any other citizen of Gotham City has apparently even given the matter a moment’s thought. This, for me, goes hand in hand with other narrative contrivances that occasionally poke through the cloth of Nolan’s Batman trilogy. The presentation and production design of these movies is so grounded, so realistic, it’s easy to forget Batman’s pulp roots, nay his operatic roots, and moments like “Blake knows Bruce Wayne is Batman,” in my experience, are endemic to the genre. I’ll say it again, the moment you decide to make a movie about a man who dresses up like a bat to fight crime, you enter the realm of the fantastic. The reader may remember my analysis of Batman and Robin, where I discovered that the psychedelic outrages of that screenplay all stem from the choice of making the flamboyantly fantastical character Mr. Freeze the chief antagonist of the piece — once that decision was made, everything else had to be made that much more crazy to fit that character. A similar thing happens here: as much as director Nolan wants to ground his Batman movies, the fact remains that they are about a man who dresses up as a bat to fight crime. Thousands of creative and narrative choices flow from that single plot point. Since that single plot point is flat-out absurd, it greatly affects everything that flows from it. In this case, wait, why hasn’t anyone, anywhere, even tried to figure out who Batman is? If a movie tried to address that question in any realistic way we’d be here all day, and the narrative would quickly spiral out of control as the thousands of questions raised by a man dressing up as a bat to fight crime would echo down and down and down until the very thing we get out of a Batman story — that is, the metaphor — would be lost. That’s why narratives like The Dark Knight Rises needs occasional contrivances like “Rookie Cop Figures Out Bruce Wayne is Batman” (or “SEC Approves Trades Made By Terrorists at Stock Exchange”). Anyone whose disbelief crashes down at this juncture would fall down dead if the same everyday logic was pressed onto any other aspect of the narrative.
Here's the link to his multi-part analysis of the film if anyone is interested. It's not a "defense" piece, so no need for anyone to be scared off. He kind of...'encounters' some of the common debate points of the film, but pretty casually and neutrally as he does a summation of the plot and digs into the themes and characters.

http://www.toddalcott.com/page/2?s=dark+knight+rises

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