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Old 01-04-2014, 02:06 PM   #701
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Here here milost and shauner! I believe that too.

That's why these forums are a hub for passionate debate amongst people with fairly similar tastes in general. And maybe it's why we're all naive enough to keep posting, thinking maybe we can get the other guy to see it our way.

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Old 01-04-2014, 04:41 PM   #702
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Excellent post, milost. Kudos to you!

Ah, Breaking Bad. "Masterpiece" cannot even begin to describe that show. I miss it already.

BatLobsterRises, since you comprised an analogy related to TDKR's ending, allow me to do the same: Batman Beyond. I like to call it the show that did the impossible: managing to beautifully blend the idea that Bruce Wayne is the true Batman with the idea that "Batman" can be passed on from generation to a generation.

First, they come up with a very believable reason to why someone as obsessed as Bruce Wayne would quit Batman - having to resort to using a gun.

But it doesn't end there. Throughout the course of the series, the whole theme of "Bruce Wayne is the true Batman" is presented and attacked by Bruce Timm straight on. We see how Terry deals with it, how Bruce deal with it now that someone else is in the batsuit, and how the villains and supporting cast react to it. We see Terry undergo a character arc regarding that whole theme, which concludes in "Return of the Joker" and "Epilogue" (JLU). Eventually it takes it even a step further by showing us how Terry deals with the concept of Robin and states what differentiates him from not only Bruce, but also the Robins.


"But when you're creating a Batman, genetics and background are only one component. The rest is tragedy."

JLU expands on BB even more by displaying the darker side of there being a next Batman.

That's where Amanda Waller steps in. She is so impressed by Batman's indomitable will that the "Bruce Wayne is the true Batman" message begins to horrify her - because she knows Bruce won't be around forever. You once said you're not fully fond of the "only Bruce can be the Batman" approach because you find it tragic, essentially for the same reason why Amanda Waller finds it the same. Whether you know it or not, you (and every other Batman fan watching) share the same fear she does and that is what makes her sympathetic.

And through that sympathy comes the Walter White angle. The angle in which we have a villain committing all these horrible things, but for good reasons. We don't condone their actions, but we understand where they're coming from and we relate to them.

That being said, we begin to see how far Amanda Waller is willing to go and how dirty she is willing to get her hands just to create another Batman. This is where Bruce Timm shows how much work it takes, including all the dirty work that comes with it. Any decent human being would find Amanda Waller's "Project Batman Beyond" absolutely disgusting.

She gets to a point where she realizes her mistakes and that her project goes against everything Bruce stood for, which is why she pulls the plug on it. Unfortunately it was too late by then because Terry was already on the path towards Batman, a regret she had to live with her whole life. That is the case until she finally meets Terry, where she finally gets some closure and forgives herself.


What's the moral of the story? Not that TDKR should have been Batman Beyond 2.0, but that you can have the best of both worlds. You can have Bruce pass on the mantle to a new generation if you know how to play with the idea and to properly incorporate it with the "Bruce is the one true Batman" idea. Heck, in some ways, these things can even compliment each other as shown by Bruce Timm. That was the main thing that made Batman Beyond work. It was a concept that shouldn't have worked on any level and yet it worked on all the levels.

Ignoring the continuity part of the argument, I think a lot more people would have been much more open to the idea of Batman being a generational mantle had they addressed both the bright and dark side of the idea, as Batman Beyond did. However, TDKR never did. The passing of the torch is too "happy" with the film acting as if Bruce just passed on the mantle of Superman or Captain America. "Hey kids, you can be a kick-ass hero too!" is what it feels like more than the more realistic, grey-shaded, and more complex angle that should be present in Batman.

Another mistake TDKR's ending made is dumbing down the complex psychology behind Batman IMO. It makes it seem that that Bruce getting over Batman is easy and no big deal, since he just gets over it with no professional therapy whatsoever, which is what I would expect to "kill" something as larger-than-life as Batman that is so bonded to Bruce's (psychological) roots. Furthermore, it takes it a step further with the idea that Bruce and John Blake are the same because they're orphans. Is that really what Batman is all about? Is Batman just the byproduct of a kid yelling for mommy and daddy? I find that to be a very surface and black-and-white view of Batman's psychology and as you told milost, things aren't that black-and-white (which I agree with). Not all orphans are mentally disturbed; very few orphans become orphans in the first place in the same radical way Bruce became one.

Going back to Batman Beyond, Terry was also psychologically disturbed but due to reasons having nothing to do with being an orphan. Bruce and Terry both get a happy ending in Epilogue. Bruce gets to leave a somewhat quiet life despite not being too far from Batman (with Terry being Batman), gains the family/allies he pushed away twice throughout his life back, and kinda-sorta comes to the conclusion that his journey was never alone (though we could have gotten better in his head IMO). Terry is also at peace (with him soon proposing to Dana and all), which kinda ends his growth in BB. Batman will continue to exist despite Bruce being in his final days. Despite all the dark things in both of their lives, the ending is somewhat happy and satisfying. It isn't the complete "Bruce retires in Italy with a hot chick" type of happy ending, but it is satisfying nonetheless.

Again, not saying Nolan should have made Batman Beyond 2.0. Just stating that everyone - both Nolan and all types of fans - could have had their cakes and eat it too.

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Old 01-04-2014, 07:21 PM   #703
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Well Shika, let me start by saying that you've stated your case very well and very clearly. I enjoy hearing your take on this.

That said, I'm not exactly sure how a film in the Nolan-verse could satisfy that "only Bruce can be Batman" angle while passing the mantle without getting into the convoluted genetics aspect. I know you're saying it didn't have to be Batman Beyond 2.0 but I'm a bit fuzzy on how else they could've accomplished "the impossible" to your satisfaction, as you put it.

I guess I just feel that the point is Blake won't be the same kind of vigilante Bruce was. Maybe he won't even be as good. Maybe the new Gotham won't quite require him to be. But hey, maybe the guy he passes the mantle to after him will be a perfect storm of rage, will power, intellect and physical prowess and would end up even surpassing Bruce. It's the idea that the symbol can endure that I find is most important aspect. It's bigger than Bruce. That means it's bigger than Blake too. More than just a man. But Bruce will always be the prototype and the godfather it all because it's his creation. At BatGod among Batmen, as it were.

I also somewhat disagree about the tone of the ending- as I was saying to milost, I do feel there is a layer of grayness there. It's not played up as much as the "happier" side of it, but I feel like there's a subtle undercurrent of it there in the ending. We as the audience know from the previous film that the cowl can become just as much of a burden as it is a force for good, and are probably more aware of that than a young man beholding the dark wonder of the Batcave for the first time. So I don't think the ending is completely without irony even though it's not emphasized. I think of it as in the same vein as the Joker card reveal at the end of Begins...it's a cute little "wink" moment, but yet it also carries larger implications than Batman or even Gordon can realize at that moment.

All that said, I'd really love to see a Batman Beyond movie some day. I think it could be really incredible. Something else I recently learned from The Art and Making of TDKT book is that Goyer originally told Nolan that he saw two ways to reboot the franchise- tell the origin or fast forward to the future and do Beyond. Obviously Nolan gravitated towards the origin.

However the fact that Goyer is still at least somewhat involved with the next incarnation of Batman makes me hope that there's still a chance we could see a non-linear Batman Beyond film some day starring Affleck, set in the future but with flashbacks interspersed ala Return of The Joker. That is pretty much the one thing that could actually get me REALLY excited for a new solo Batman movie at the moment.

I just think the cinematic possibilities are tremendous for a cyberpunk, Blade Runner-esque Batman film. A lot of fans dismiss this and say it'll never happen, but I think there's still a chance.

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Old 01-04-2014, 07:22 PM   #704
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Originally Posted by I Am The Knight View Post
Eh, sure, it could be like that. But I don't agree with Bruce just leaving this huge legacy to Blake just because he could. It's not earned, by either Blake or the narrative. They had like three scenes. Sure, Blake is in the middle of the action in TDKR, but Bruce doesn't know that. It's like he just felt that Blake could be Batman....Felt it...In his bones.

Blake: "I believe in the Batma..."

Bruce: "HIRED!"

And later...

Batman: "If you're working alone, wear a mask."

Blake: "I'm not afraid to be seen standing up to these guys."

Batman: "SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MANTLE!"

If Blake has to leave Gotham (and I just can't imagine this guy leaving on a worldwide quest to train) to get the necessary fighting skills to be Batman then that obviously leaves a void. I suppose evil will just conveniently wait until Blake returns from his fan fiction quest. If Batman wants Blake to take his place, he should've just man up, actually train the guy, or remain Batman until Blake is fully ready, and then leave to live happily ever after with Selina. But nope. Nolan needed to wrap things up quickly and get Bruce to his Cafe ending, or the movie wouldn't be able to fit the IMAX format

Everytime Blake is in danger he either has to shoot down his attackers or be saved by Batman. It's nice that he has detective skills. But you need more than that to be Batman. You need actual combat skills.
Yes. Because that's writing. It's why Norman never had to take his GG formula... until Peter happened to have been bitten by a genetically engineered spider. And why the alien transmission just happens to reach Earth when Ellie Arroway is on the same frequency, on the cusp of her funding being cut (Contact). It's why - in spite of being huge and Earth thumpingly-loud - the group can't suddenly see or hear the TRex at the end of Jurassic Park when he happens to pefectly time his arrival to save them from the raptors.

If anything, having an extended break from 'Batman required threats' is more organic to the ending of TDKR than the contrary. Again, the city is in a state of rebuilding and even unity, thanks to Batman. That can last for as long as it can, Blake can train, and then, in time... it's game on again.

And its earned, yes, because he and Bruce are kindred spirits. He sees himself in Blake, the way Blake saw what he saw in Bruce. He knows he's capable because he used all the anger he felt to do something good - to become a police officer and try to help people. He went even further by finding Bruce and having the balls to confront him, then do all he did during the siege.

It is nice that he has detective skills (a point no Batman misses a chance to make). And he sure does need combat skills... so it's lucky he has the combat training provided to him by the police. That's not Batman level, of course. But it's a lot better a foundation than Bruce had at his age.

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Old 01-04-2014, 09:46 PM   #705
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Well said, titansupes.

Again, the ending to me is similar to The Joker card ending with BB. With that ending Nolan said he wanted to the world of the story to continue spinning in the audiences' head. And of course- we all dreamed, we all speculated about what that version of The Joker would be and what further adventures this Batman might have.

It's the same thing with Blake, only this time there really is no sequel coming so the story truly continues (or doesn't) in each of our heads. I think it's great that different fans have different ideas about what path Blake will take. Since Blake is, like Robin was originally conceived, something of an audience surrogate character (he's literally a Bat-fan within the movie), it's like you have to put yourself in his shoes and imagine how you might feel and what you might do if Bruce Wayne decided you were worthy of owning the keys to the cave. That's how I like thinking of it, anyhow.

Despite being an ending to the story, I really feel like a lot of things about the way the story of TDKR was told and the gaps it left can generate volumes upon volumes of fan-fiction- which in some ways I think is Nolan's greatest parting gift. I only wish DC would publish "in-movieverse" continuity stories (with both the Burtonverse and Nolanverse), similar to how they're doing the 60s comics now. Some day, mayhaps.

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Old 01-04-2014, 10:57 PM   #706
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Yes. Because that's writing. It's why Norman never had to take his GG formula... until Peter happened to have been bitten by a genetically engineered spider. And why the alien transmission just happens to reach Earth when Ellie Arroway is on the same frequency, on the cusp of her funding being cut (Contact). It's why - in spite of being huge and Earth thumpingly-loud - the group can't suddenly see or hear the TRex at the end of Jurassic Park when he happens to pefectly time his arrival to save them from the raptors.
No. That's one way of writing. Two wrongs don't make a right. And what works for one film may not work on another. Unrelated film X having convenient writing in it doesn't really mean anything to the ending of The Dark Knight Rises. I loved how in Batman Begins, the villains already existed. Heck, not only were Bruce's actions an obvious reaction to the evil that had already taken over Gotham, but the actual villain of the piece, Ra's Al Ghul, actually seeks the hero out himself, when the hero is, well, not the hero yet.

You can write it, and we tend to accept these kind of things in movies all the time. But it doesn't make it consistent with what came before, which is one of the main reasons TDKR doesn't fully work. I expected better from Nolan. You can write your fan fiction in which everything goes smooth for Blake for the most part, just like I can say that that scenario is not that likely. It works both ways. However, I choose to base my assumptions on what's presented in the trilogy itself. Like Bruce needing to go on an epic journey to fully become Batman. How becoming Batman is a burden, and having ordinary joes playing dress up goes terribly wrong. How Blake is a detective but lacks any combat skill beyond that of a cop, which doesn't do him any good in TDKR, as he has to depend on guns.

So...Why does Bruce just leave like Blake is able to care of everything now?

Quote:
If anything, having an extended break from 'Batman required threats' is more organic to the ending of TDKR than the contrary. Again, the city is in a state of rebuilding and even unity, thanks to Batman. That can last for as long as it can, Blake can train, and then, in time... it's game on again.
Really? So you saw the rich and the poor shaking hands after the events of the siege? After homes were sacked, people executed, sides chosen? You saw people hugging each other and converting to the religion of the Bat? Did the spirit of the holy Batman go into their hearts, and they swore to the sky that they would be good to each other for a while, enough time for Johnny Blake to be ready to be The Batman so he could tame them again? Because I would think that after the events of TDKR the city would be in a worst state than it was before, or at least a very strange one. Nolan just decides to simply not address it at all, so he could cut to the Cafe ending, but to think that everyone in Gotham is shaking hands at the end of TDKR is ridiculous. Nolan may want to say that that's what happens, but it is just silly.

Quote:
And its earned, yes, because he and Bruce are kindred spirits. He sees himself in Blake, the way Blake saw what he saw in Bruce. He knows he's capable because he used all the anger he felt to do something good - to become a police officer and try to help people. He went even further by finding Bruce and having the balls to confront him, then do all he did during the siege.
Bwahahaha. Then why isn't Gordon the next Batman, if all it takes is the ability to "do some good" to inherit the mantle? It's not earned at all. I mean I guess it is, because Nolan says so. But it doesn't make a lick of sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises
Despite being an ending to the story, I really feel like a lot of things about the way the story of TDKR was told and the gaps it left can generate volumes upon volumes of fan-fiction- which in some ways I think is Nolan's greatest parting gift. I only wish DC would publish "in-movieverse" continuity stories (with both the Burtonverse and Nolanverse), similar to how they're doing the 60s comics now. Some day, mayhaps.
That's funny, considering a lot of the stuff in TDKR seemed like fan-fiction based off of BB and TDK.

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Old 01-05-2014, 12:21 AM   #707
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Regarding the state of the populace at the end of TDKR...the film doesn't presume to say one way or another. We get the "I see a brilliant people rising from this abyss" quote as a means of suggesting that at least Gordon hopes that Gotham will be able to bounce back stronger than ever. And I believe Gotham will need Gordon's leadership during the rebuilding era for sure, so it's nice to know that his sense of hope and idealism is still there. Now he is quite literally a "war hero".

The way I see it though is that the city has hit rock bottom. It's coming out of being a literal war state, so peace time is what naturally follows. There's not much room for things to get worse than they were under Bane's siege. If Gotham is to survive as a city, it will have to heal. And that will take time. And it's also something much deeper that cannot be punched in the face or solved simply through vigilantism. That's why it only makes the most sense to me that it would be a number of years before 'The Blakeman' would even be needed, or do anything to make his presence known. Hence he'd have time to train as a fighter...if that's the path he chooses.

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That's funny, considering a lot of the stuff in TDKR seemed like fan-fiction based off of BB and TDK.
Hey, there's actually some pretty great fan-fic out there if you look for it.

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Old 01-05-2014, 12:23 AM   #708
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We have answered everything in that post already. All of it comes from what's clearly presented in the movie. This just feels like you putting your fingers in your ears and saying 'nu-uh'.

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Regarding the state of the populace at the end of TDKR...the film doesn't presume to say one way or another. We get the "I see a brilliant people rising from this abyss" quote as a means of suggesting that at least Gordon hopes that Gotham will be able to bounce back stronger than ever. And I believe Gotham will need Gordon's leadership during the rebuilding era for sure, so it's nice to know that his sense of hope and idealism is still there. Now he is quite literally a "war hero".

The way I see it though is that the city has hit rock bottom. It's coming out of being a literal war state, so peace time is what naturally follows. There's not much room for things to get worse than they were under Bane's siege. If Gotham is to survive as a city, it will have to heal. And that will take time. And it's also something much deeper that cannot be punched in the face or solved simply through vigilantism. That's why it only makes the most sense to me that it would be a number of years before 'The Blakeman' would even be needed, or do anything to make his presence known. Hence he'd have time to train as a fighter...if that's the path he chooses.



Hey, there's actually some pretty great fan-fic out there if you look for it.
Correct again (I can't believe you have the stamina for all these long posts. I tire myself out after three or four).

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Old 01-05-2014, 12:23 PM   #709
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OK. You guys buy the way things are presented in the film, and I don't. Fair enough. I too am a little tired of arguing about this.

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Old 01-05-2014, 12:40 PM   #710
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Regarding the state of the populace at the end of TDKR...the film doesn't presume to say one way or another. We get the "I see a brilliant people rising from this abyss" quote as a means of suggesting that at least Gordon hopes that Gotham will be able to bounce back stronger than ever. And I believe Gotham will need Gordon's leadership during the rebuilding era for sure, so it's nice to know that his sense of hope and idealism is still there. Now he is quite literally a "war hero".

The way I see it though is that the city has hit rock bottom. It's coming out of being a literal war state, so peace time is what naturally follows. There's not much room for things to get worse than they were under Bane's siege. If Gotham is to survive as a city, it will have to heal. And that will take time. And it's also something much deeper that cannot be punched in the face or solved simply through vigilantism. That's why it only makes the most sense to me that it would be a number of years before 'The Blakeman' would even be needed, or do anything to make his presence known. Hence he'd have time to train as a fighter...if that's the path he chooses.



Hey, there's actually some pretty great fan-fic out there if you look for it.
These days i lean more towards Blake never actually putting on the cowl, even though he has the means to do so. Or if he does, it's not for a long time.

We have to think about the timeline of the ending. When Gordon reads A Tale of Two Cities at Wayne's funeral, it's months later. The siege ends in January. Winter. It's clearly spring when they finally sort the will out, get those kids in Wayne Manor and have a private funeral for Bruce. March? Looks like it by the surroundings.

So a couple of months have passed and Gordon already sees a change it seems "i see a brilliant people rising from this abyss". I always took that as Gothamites have been helping each other fix their city. The damage on the surface and possibly the internal problems.

It's also possible that Blake becomes a part-time Batman since the future looks brighter.

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Old 01-05-2014, 01:26 PM   #711
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I think Robin John Blake goes back to school to be a doctor, so he can help people with their broken bones and stuff.

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
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Old 01-05-2014, 01:34 PM   #712
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I think Robin John Blake goes back to school to be a doctor, so he can help people with their broken bones and stuff.

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Old 01-05-2014, 02:16 PM   #713
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OK. You guys buy the way things are presented in the film, and I don't. Fair enough. I too am a little tired of arguing about this.
That's what most debate points on this movie boil down to at the end of the day.

Subjectivity is the name of the game.

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Old 01-05-2014, 02:18 PM   #714
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Excellent post, milost. Kudos to you!

Ah, Breaking Bad. "Masterpiece" cannot even begin to describe that show. I miss it already.

BatLobsterRises, since you comprised an analogy related to TDKR's ending, allow me to do the same: Batman Beyond. I like to call it the show that did the impossible: managing to beautifully blend the idea that Bruce Wayne is the true Batman with the idea that "Batman" can be passed on from generation to a generation.

First, they come up with a very believable reason to why someone as obsessed as Bruce Wayne would quit Batman - having to resort to using a gun.

But it doesn't end there. Throughout the course of the series, the whole theme of "Bruce Wayne is the true Batman" is presented and attacked by Bruce Timm straight on. We see how Terry deals with it, how Bruce deal with it now that someone else is in the batsuit, and how the villains and supporting cast react to it. We see Terry undergo a character arc regarding that whole theme, which concludes in "Return of the Joker" and "Epilogue" (JLU). Eventually it takes it even a step further by showing us how Terry deals with the concept of Robin and states what differentiates him from not only Bruce, but also the Robins.


"But when you're creating a Batman, genetics and background are only one component. The rest is tragedy."

JLU expands on BB even more by displaying the darker side of there being a next Batman.

That's where Amanda Waller steps in. She is so impressed by Batman's indomitable will that the "Bruce Wayne is the true Batman" message begins to horrify her - because she knows Bruce won't be around forever. You once said you're not fully fond of the "only Bruce can be the Batman" approach because you find it tragic, essentially for the same reason why Amanda Waller finds it the same. Whether you know it or not, you (and every other Batman fan watching) share the same fear she does and that is what makes her sympathetic.

And through that sympathy comes the Walter White angle. The angle in which we have a villain committing all these horrible things, but for good reasons. We don't condone their actions, but we understand where they're coming from and we relate to them.

That being said, we begin to see how far Amanda Waller is willing to go and how dirty she is willing to get her hands just to create another Batman. This is where Bruce Timm shows how much work it takes, including all the dirty work that comes with it. Any decent human being would find Amanda Waller's "Project Batman Beyond" absolutely disgusting.

She gets to a point where she realizes her mistakes and that her project goes against everything Bruce stood for, which is why she pulls the plug on it. Unfortunately it was too late by then because Terry was already on the path towards Batman, a regret she had to live with her whole life. That is the case until she finally meets Terry, where she finally gets some closure and forgives herself.


What's the moral of the story? Not that TDKR should have been Batman Beyond 2.0, but that you can have the best of both worlds. You can have Bruce pass on the mantle to a new generation if you know how to play with the idea and to properly incorporate it with the "Bruce is the one true Batman" idea. Heck, in some ways, these things can even compliment each other as shown by Bruce Timm. That was the main thing that made Batman Beyond work. It was a concept that shouldn't have worked on any level and yet it worked on all the levels.

Ignoring the continuity part of the argument, I think a lot more people would have been much more open to the idea of Batman being a generational mantle had they addressed both the bright and dark side of the idea, as Batman Beyond did. However, TDKR never did. The passing of the torch is too "happy" with the film acting as if Bruce just passed on the mantle of Superman or Captain America. "Hey kids, you can be a kick-ass hero too!" is what it feels like more than the more realistic, grey-shaded, and more complex angle that should be present in Batman.

Another mistake TDKR's ending made is dumbing down the complex psychology behind Batman IMO. It makes it seem that that Bruce getting over Batman is easy and no big deal, since he just gets over it with no professional therapy whatsoever, which is what I would expect to "kill" something as larger-than-life as Batman that is so bonded to Bruce's (psychological) roots. Furthermore, it takes it a step further with the idea that Bruce and John Blake are the same because they're orphans. Is that really what Batman is all about? Is Batman just the byproduct of a kid yelling for mommy and daddy? I find that to be a very surface and black-and-white view of Batman's psychology and as you told milost, things aren't that black-and-white (which I agree with). Not all orphans are mentally disturbed; very few orphans become orphans in the first place in the same radical way Bruce became one.

Going back to Batman Beyond, Terry was also psychologically disturbed but due to reasons having nothing to do with being an orphan. Bruce and Terry both get a happy ending in Epilogue. Bruce gets to leave a somewhat quiet life despite not being too far from Batman (with Terry being Batman), gains the family/allies he pushed away twice throughout his life back, and kinda-sorta comes to the conclusion that his journey was never alone (though we could have gotten better in his head IMO). Terry is also at peace (with him soon proposing to Dana and all), which kinda ends his growth in BB. Batman will continue to exist despite Bruce being in his final days. Despite all the dark things in both of their lives, the ending is somewhat happy and satisfying. It isn't the complete "Bruce retires in Italy with a hot chick" type of happy ending, but it is satisfying nonetheless.

Again, not saying Nolan should have made Batman Beyond 2.0. Just stating that everyone - both Nolan and all types of fans - could have had their cakes and eat it too.
I actually agree with you Batman Beyond is a terrific show that did the "legacy" aspect to the Batman mythos, which I would call implicit with all the Robins and Batgirls he's had over the years--but can never be realized in comics, as they never end, hence Dick Grayson only assuming the mantle temporarily with Damian Wayne before Bruce comes back, Damian dies, and status quo is restored--and it does it immeasurably well.

TDKR I think did a fine job implementing it into its story, save for how John Blake figured out he was Batman, but thankfully JGL performed that scene superbly enough that I can overlook it. Yes, if this was a longer form of storytelling, such as comics or even a TV series, I'd want them to spend years or at least real time months developing that relationship, as well as Blake's credentials. But in the confines of a movie trilogy, it emotionally, symbolically and even narratively works. It is not perfect, but it is satisfying.

And that is a big thing about the end of Rises: it is the only one that dared to not go "dark." Given the tone of the character, or even the name of this trilogy, that is a subversively interesting and refreshing choice, in my opinion.

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Old 01-05-2014, 02:27 PM   #715
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Vince Gilligan and Co. are much better story tellers than Nolan and Co. That Breaking Bad documentary is proof of that and Gilligan is way more humble and open about the process than anything for TDKR or even the other two films.

It's apples and oranges. Gilligan said during the finale that a lot of the ideas they came up with were last minute decisions that happened to work out perfectly. The shooting scripts (especially during season 3) were changed up DURING shooting and actors even got a say in what they wanted to do. That's much more unique than Nolan's strict "we're adhering to the final script, that's all" (which I think is BS personally).

Knowing Walt's final moment in your head for 4 additional seasons is a lot different than supposedly knowing Bruce Wayne's journey. Especially when your character has cancer, is described as having a "Scarface downfall" since it's conception, and is on a crash course for death. Besides, Breaking Bad doesn't have one "main character" during it's run, but several. Jesse, Skylar and even Walt Jr. had different original fates all through the story process. So using Breaking Bad as an example is a stretch and TDKR is no where near the quality of Breaking Bad's writing (or the "trilogy" even though I love Begins and Dark Knight). Gilligan and his team are much more fluid and organic storytellers whereas Nolan comes off as this extreme tight ass. Their documentaries should be proof of how different the two styles are.
Really? We're going there now?

They are making entirely different kinds of stories in two totally separate mediums. You must REALLY hate Nolan to be going down that path.

I will say Breaking Bad is near flawless as a perfect work of longform television. But considering it is a pure gangster show, written from the "villain's" perspective, and told over five (really six) seasons, I would say that it is an entirely different animal from a film trilogy.

If we want to compare this to a gangster story, in theory The Godfather would make the most sense as it is a trilogy, but even then it spans multiple generations and most of the 20th century. So even that is an obtuse comparison. With that said TDKT is not a patch on The Godfather Trilogy, even if the third one sucked. That is just how good the first two are.

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Old 01-05-2014, 02:32 PM   #716
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Bruce never said hired Blake as Batman, he only have them the tools to continue the legend how Blame saw fit. It isn't Bruce's job anymore to take care of the city. The way I see it and the movie alludes to and never denies it, is Blake in the cave is Bruce Wayne the moment he charged that ship I'm Begins. He has his own journey ahead of him. His own way to help the city. He just has more of a boost than Bruce did.

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Old 01-05-2014, 02:45 PM   #717
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Really? We're going there now?

They are making entirely different kinds of stories in two totally separate mediums. You must REALLY hate Nolan to be going down that path.

I will say Breaking Bad is near flawless as a perfect work of longform television. But considering it is a pure gangster show, written from the "villain's" perspective, and told over five (really six) seasons, I would say that it is an entirely different animal from a film trilogy.

If we want to compare this to a gangster story, in theory The Godfather would make the most sense as it is a trilogy, but even then it spans multiple generations and most of the 20th century. So even that is an obtuse comparison. With that said TDKT is not a patch on The Godfather Trilogy, even if the third one sucked. That is just how good the first two are.
It's really my fault for bringing up the comparison in the first place. However it wasn't my intention to compare them in terms of quality, I just was making a point about how one can have a rough sketch of a character arc and a compass of where a story is heading while still discovering the details along the way.

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Old 01-05-2014, 04:01 PM   #718
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Nobody knows if Blake will choose to become Batman or not. He has had zero talks with Fox about making suits, vehicles, etc. Nothing. Bruce gives him the tools in the cave, his computers. There are no suits anymore. Bruce also doesn't know anything about Blake's decision about leaving the police force. Maybe he had a feeling, but i doubt it. As far as he knows, Blake is still a detective and will either take Bruce's technology for the department to use or for Blake to use privately.

It's like the new signal. Is it incase Blake decides to be Batman? Maybe. Or was it for A) Gordon to find out Bruce is still alive and most importantly B) for Gordon to turn on each and every night for decades to come as a constant reminder for people, and for criminals to see.

It's all our choice. Nolan likes exposition but he also likes to balance that out with a fair amount of ambiguity. Especially at the end of his films.

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Old 01-05-2014, 05:07 PM   #719
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Here's the link to his multi-part analysis of the film if anyone is interested. It's not a "defense" piece, so no need for anyone to be scared off. He kind of...'encounters' some of the common debate points of the film, but pretty casually and neutrally as he does a summation of the plot and digs into the themes and characters.

http://www.toddalcott.com/page/2?s=dark+knight+rises
Thanks for the link, BLR. That was some of the most insightful stuff I've read in a while, especially the posts about TDK. I of course ended up reading everything on BB, TDK and TDKR. 3 hours of non-sleep well spent, I say.

Regarding Blake at the end of TDKR, I too have never really felt that it means he has to be the next Batman. He's free to choose his own path. The knee-jerk reaction is to of course say he's gonna be the next Batman and that he's going to do a miserable job of it, but on reflection, that's not even the only route he can take from there. It is the most unimaginative, though.

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Old 01-05-2014, 06:26 PM   #720
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For me, the platform rises and Blake accidentally trips and falls. As this happens, his little satchel and/or rope hooks onto the rail of the platform and it hangs him. He cries for help, but nobody listens. Still alive, he struggles to break free but the platform, with no body alerting it's sensors anymore, goes back down into the water, bringing Blake down with it.

Blake's last thoughts before asphyxiation and drowning is why he ever visited Bruce in the first place . . .

Upstairs, Father Reilly (who is known for his drinking problems) has had one too many and in a twist of fate, accidentally burns the mansion down along with himself and the orphans.

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Old 01-05-2014, 07:04 PM   #721
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LMAO wtf

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Old 01-05-2014, 07:31 PM   #722
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http://www.imdb.com/chart/top?tt0468569

I just noticed TDK made the top 5 on IMDb's Top 250.

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Old 01-05-2014, 10:40 PM   #723
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http://www.imdb.com/chart/top?tt0468569

I just noticed TDK made the top 5 on IMDb's Top 250.
Well deserved too.

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Old 01-05-2014, 11:03 PM   #724
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An interesting thing I think people missed is that the Joker mask is also a nod to the movie "The Killing" by Stanley Kubrick. The robber in that movie also wore a Pagliacci mask like the one in TDK.

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Old 01-06-2014, 07:31 AM   #725
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An interesting thing I think people missed is that the Joker mask is also a nod to the movie "The Killing" by Stanley Kubrick. The robber in that movie also wore a Pagliacci mask like the one in TDK.
You should also know that Nolan made TDK to try and cryptically tell people how he helped fake 9/11. The same way Kubrick did with The Shining and the moon landing.

True story, bro.

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