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Old 12-09-2013, 08:12 PM   #126
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So would Superman.

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Old 12-09-2013, 08:18 PM   #127
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Where else did you think this came from?


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Old 12-09-2013, 08:18 PM   #128
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So would Superman.
I think he'd have a little more of a problem with Affleck Batman.


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Old 12-09-2013, 08:20 PM   #129
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Poor Superman. Batman always wins.

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Old 12-10-2013, 12:25 AM   #130
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This year was absolutely lackluster in regards to blockbusters. I've started cutting TDKR some slack, because while TDKR is flawed it definitely kicks the ass of any big movie that came out this year.
Yes. When compared to TDK, it can be disappointing. When compared to most other mainstream big budget cinema--including MOS, STID, Lone Ranger, Pacific Rim, TTDW, etc.--it looks pretty fantastic.

I actually think that is why Greengrass and Spielberg are so quick to praise it. While the massive general consensus is "not as good as TDK," I think TDKR is still generally received as a great movie, if not the cultural phenomenon or masterpiece that its predecessor was. That is why many are quick to praise it in critical and filmmaking circles, strangely more than the fans of the character.

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Old 12-10-2013, 12:47 AM   #131
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As Michael Mann said in the documentary, "Time renders justice to quality."

I've been saying it for good year now, TDKR, along with the trilogy are going to age wonderfully. I feel very confident about that. Just look at how easy fans are on Return of the Jedi now compared to 1983. And TDKR is a fair amount better than ROTJ. Years from now when the next generation gets to see this as one big story and can experience TDKR devoid of a 4 year wait and all the hype and speculation on whether or not it could possibly top TDK, they're just going to see it for what it is- a grand, fitting conclusion to the story.

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Old 12-10-2013, 09:25 AM   #132
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Years from now when people look back on the slew of superhero films that came out in the span of a decade or so, one trilogy will stand head and shoulders above the rest.

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Old 12-10-2013, 09:34 AM   #133
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The new Spider-Man trilogy?


Nah.

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Old 12-10-2013, 09:54 AM   #134
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I was talking about the trilogy of Jonah Hex, Green Lantern, and The Spirit.

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Old 12-10-2013, 01:49 PM   #135
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As Michael Mann said in the documentary, "Time renders justice to quality."

I've been saying it for good year now, TDKR, along with the trilogy are going to age wonderfully. I feel very confident about that.
I don't. I do think TDK will, though.

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Old 12-10-2013, 02:15 PM   #136
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The whole trilogy will age well as a whole. TDK will always be the standout and in my opinion that's only because of Heath Ledger (im talking about in the minds of the general audience who dont even care about Batman that much). But the entire trilogy will just blend together as one story when the years pass.

Im sure everybody will criticize Nolans movies after a film or two with Affleck, because of the new suit, fights, etc. Visually, theyll say it's the best Batman theyve seen (maybe). But in retrospect we all may start getting a little tired of the sci-fi elements and how crowded this franchise will soon get with all the superhero interactions and aliens. It will remain a dark and serious Batman, but it wont be anywhere near as serious or dark as the Nolan films. Which is what Kevin Smith said too.

Once we all look back at the trilogy in a decade from now, we'll see how jarring it is. How stripped down it is in comparison. Hell, depending on who they cast for the supporting roles (let's hope they knock it out of the park) we could be looking back at Nolan's movies...marveling at the cast and the emotional performances.

TDK trilogy and Rises will age wonderfully. But it will take some time. After people get off the high of Batfleck and all those visuals..theyll come down...and see how concise and beautiful the story was. If they don't already.

The detractors will also accept Rises down the line with its storyline once they see Affleck's movies giving them what they wanted. That's all that it is. People wanted the franchise to go into a certain direction after TDK and they didnt feel like they got it. It seems like a lot of what they asked for will be given to them on a Bat-platter in the coming years. And so, the "what if's" will be gone. Their appetite will be fed. So they can look back and just see Rises and the ending purely for what it is. And not for what they "missed out on".


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Old 12-10-2013, 03:32 PM   #137
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I don't think the legacy of The Dark Knight can legitimately be questioned (although many will try)... but BB and TDKR might have a harder time.

Don't think the next generation won't blindly dismiss everything but Heath Ledger when the next ''definitive'' on screen Batman appears. Be it Affleck or someone else.

For me, the trilogy will be like fine wine. Frankly, it's my Star Wars and I'll always have a soft spot for it.

EDIT: Still feels weird that we are talking about it in the past tense now. I can still vividly remember when Nolan announced the title and all the Hugo Strange rumours.

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Old 12-10-2013, 04:04 PM   #138
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Yeah it's crazy. It's my Star Wars too. I do appreciate the original SW trilogy now but i didnt grow up with it, i grew up with Batman.

I cant say these will always be the ultimate Batman movies for me. Since i can see Affleck or the next bringing forth a version that feels like the animated series or like a Lee Bermejo/Neal Adams art coming to life. But the trilogy might end up becoming my favorite Bruce Wayne character arc.

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Old 12-10-2013, 06:08 PM   #139
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Yeah, I've been a huge Star Wars fan since I was a kid and it's still my Star Wars.

I have no doubt that the next generation of fans will hold up the next iteration of the character as the "tr00 Batman", whether it be Batfleck or whatever comes after that.

But I think in terms of treating the character and his world like a piece of classic literature and presenting it within more conventional cinematic tropes as opposed to trying to make something feel like a comic or cartoon, these will always be the benchmark. I also think these films (particularly the latter two) are exemplary when it comes to towing the line between an uncompromising, specific vision and mass appeal.

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Old 12-10-2013, 06:38 PM   #140
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As far as I'm concerned Nolan's TDK trilogy is at the same table as blockbuster trilogies like SW, Indiana Jones, Back to the Future, LOTR, etc. It's something people will watch and celebrate for a long, long time.

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Old 12-10-2013, 07:27 PM   #141
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As Michael Mann said in the documentary, "Time renders justice to quality."

I've been saying it for good year now, TDKR, along with the trilogy are going to age wonderfully. I feel very confident about that. Just look at how easy fans are on Return of the Jedi now compared to 1983. And TDKR is a fair amount better than ROTJ. Years from now when the next generation gets to see this as one big story and can experience TDKR devoid of a 4 year wait and all the hype and speculation on whether or not it could possibly top TDK, they're just going to see it for what it is- a grand, fitting conclusion to the story.
I disagree that time renders justice to quality. Sometimes that is the case, but a lot of the times...in fact, arguably too many times...injustice is present.

For example, the 90's TMNT film is arguably one of the greatest comic book movies of all time. Yet the things that film achieved - especially for its time - are so overlooked by many people (including the critics). It had 2 major disadvantages when it came out: 1) It came out in a time when comics/superheroes weren't taken as seriously and 2) It came out in a time when the Turtles specifically were taken even less seriously due to the '87 cartoon. Neither of those things would be problems today but the film has yet to be re-evaluated by critics and the GA.

Another prime example would be Mask of the Phantasm. Very few people (overall) are aware of the fact that there was an actual good Batman film in theatres back in the 90's. Had that film been marketed better, it could have had the potential to change the face of serious animation in America and even give WB the "Disney-level push" they wanted in straight-to-DVD animated films back then.

Then there are old products that get more credit than they deserve due to nostalgia. In many cases, a film is propped up due to how people remember its quality and not due to the quality itself. Not exactly film examples, but there are many animated series that we grew up with in the 80's/90's that are mainly propped up by nostalgia [the '87 TMNT cartoon, 90's Spider-Man TAS (still very good but people often forget the censorship issues it had), etc.]. I won't list any old films because I know there will probably be at least one guy who will go on a long rant as to why the film(s) I brought up still holds up today, but I'm sure everyone reading this has already thought of a CBM from last century or early 2000's whose quality is strengthened by nostalgia. However, I will state the following: If you take a look at Green Lantern, the film as a whole feels as the GL film we would have gotten in 2001 (or earlier) as opposed to 2011. Everything about it felt that way to me. The entire film gave off that vibe based on the story they went with, the way it was marketed, the way the producers looked at GL's first movie debut, etc. Basically, someone at WB didn't get the memo that that "style" of CBM no longer worked. Yet if they released the exact same film at least 10 years ago, people would react differently. Not sure if I would go as far as to say people would have loved it, but I think it would have at least been seen as "kinda cool". Then years later when when they would have rebooted GL with a better script/story + better representation of the character, people in flocks would have immediately reacted negatively due to it being different from Reynolds' GL. When you would prove to them the reboot was more like what GL is about, they would go on and on about how Reynolds' GL "achieved a lot for its time so give it a pass" (which is sometimes true but is also not sometimes not true). Once again, I'm sure everyone reading this has already thought of at least 1 reboot that went through this - if not a film reboot, then a comic/TV series reboot.

Popularity and tastes also play a role. In a lot of cases, it's not so much that a film is less hated now than in the past but that all/most of the haters have gotten tired of it and the only ones still discussing that film are the hardcore fans. Such case would give off the impression that a film now has a better reputation in pop culture. Same thing is possible vice versa.

As for Return of the Jedi, I always loved it and was born in the 90's so I can't comment on my/others' opinion originally when it came out, but the prequels' poor quality did have a huge role in turning people around. Then again, the upcoming trainwreck disaster known as "Batman vs. Superman" might be bound to do the same thing.

Me personally, my opinions on films have for the most part been fairly consistent in the long run. I really don't know whether or not TDKR will be looked at better in the future by fans. However, I do believe to a certain extent that the Nolan films being seen as "one flowing story" by future generations immensely affect the way BB/TDK are seen in the long run. In a way, I'm kinda happy to have been exposed to them pre-TDKR and not already have the events of TDKR subconsciously programmed in me. Here's an example of what I mean - I was glad that I was able to hear Gordon's speech at the end of TDK about how Batman must keep going/endure without thinking "So he goes home and quits after this" or "Too bad they will only chase him this night". I was also glad I was able to think "Wow, Batman evolved and changed so much throughout this story" as opposed to "Wow, he is so injured by the end".

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Old 12-10-2013, 08:20 PM   #142
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Well, I definitely agree about the first TMNT film. It's one of my favorite CBM movies for sure.

Though, I think generally speaking, the idea is that things that are truly good stand the test of time. Maybe they're not appreciated by EVERYONE, but I think that first TMNT film for example does have its fanbase.

I mean for example, I loved both the first and second TMNT films equally when I was a kid. When I revisited them years later, it was clear to me that the first one held up well and the second one, while not horrible, was definitely a step down from the gritty and more mature first film.

I guess at the end of the day it depends on what Mann meant by "justice". If it means things become universally recognized, then no, that's often not the case. If it means that they become well appreciated by those who care, then I would say it is often the case. Just look at how adored MOTP is.

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Old 12-10-2013, 08:33 PM   #143
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Well, I definitely agree about the first TMNT film. It's one of my favorite CBM movies for sure.

Though, I think generally speaking, the idea is that things that are truly good stand the test of time. Maybe they're not appreciated by EVERYONE, but I think that first TMNT film for example does have its fanbase.

I mean for example, I loved both the first and second TMNT films equally when I was a kid. When I revisited them years later, it was clear to me that the first one held up well and the second one, while not horrible, was definitely a step down from the gritty and more mature first film.

I guess at the end of the day it depends on what Mann meant by "justice". If it means things become universally recognized, then no, that's often not the case. If it means that they become well appreciated by those who care, then I would say it is often the case. Just look at how adored MOTP is.
That is true. I can agree with that.

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Old 12-10-2013, 11:38 PM   #144
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The best example is Bladerunner.

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Old 12-11-2013, 01:05 AM   #145
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The best example is Bladerunner.
And Carpenter's The Thing.

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Old 12-11-2013, 02:31 AM   #146
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I am not sure TMNT counts as a comparison. It is a kid's movie aimed at being a kid's movie (note: not family movie) and does so very well. But it is also very dated in the late '80s/early '90s with that quaint New Line charm. But I don't think it is really one of the best comic book movies, though it does hold up.

I think Mann is right to a degree though in that quality films stand out more as years pass, because everything else (whether film or other art and commerce) drifts into the obscurity of time. When it comes to the post-9/11 cinematic superhero craze, I imagine the TDK Trilogy will be one of the most viewed, if not the most viewed, by future generations because of its cinematic heft, quality storytelling and also its actual reflections and ruminations on the cultural context that made superheroes so popular during this era.

I think that will become more clear as much of the MCU, for example, fades from memory. And I like much of the MCU, but I don't think parents will be passing Iron Man 3 down from one generation to the next or that film historians will feel the need to shower Thor: The Dark World with praise. And as fans finally could accept the Burton movies as their own groovy thing by the time Nolan's series was no longer "new," so too will the detractors hopefully have room to accept Nolan's vision after 2-3 Affleck films.

A funny thing is that I can still remember how new and in awe Batman Begins left me and the fans in 2005 (and it's now my least favorite of the three). Simultaneously, I can recall how when TDKR trailer dropped that fans complained it wasn't as daring and refreshing as the Arkham Asylum/Arkham City video game images of Batman (which is in itself informed by Nolan, as well as Burton, Adams, Miller, Moore, Dini/Timm, and countless others). That chorus grew louder after July 2012...yet when I check in on waht they're saying about Arkham Origins, many are already whining that WB should reboot the franchise and give up on the "played out" Arkham universe.

Fans are fickle. But time shows what keeps, stays and endures. Just saying.

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Old 12-11-2013, 02:39 AM   #147
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P.S. If I just read a long analogy that implied Spider-Man (2002) is about average with Green Lantern, then nope.

Not to go down that rabbit hole, but TASM is far more akin to the lifeless, committee-approved bit of studio pandering that was GL. Okay, sorry I had to say that.

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Old 12-11-2013, 02:40 AM   #148
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Yeah, time tends to smooth out the fickle and petty criticisms. We forget about the context of things (given how much short-term marketing affects a movie's box office) and start to see them as they are.

No, The Thing did not suddenly turn into Star Wars in terms of popularity, with time. But it's much better regarded. I don't think TDKR was reviled necessarily, but we'll forget the context of "it wasn't better than TDK so it sucks" in time.

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Old 12-11-2013, 05:20 AM   #149
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Damn The Dark Knight Trilogy Blu Ray collection is going for $20 bucks on Amazon.

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Old 12-11-2013, 07:45 AM   #150
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On my shelf, the two Burton films, all the BTAS box-sets and TDK Trilogy make a damn fine representation of the character. A lot of my favourite moments come from TDK Rises, so I by no means dislike the movie. The high points in the movie are high.

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