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Old 11-07-2013, 06:08 PM   #326
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I understand your points there, but I don't think there's some sort of "sympathy limit" when it comes to films

My favorite villains are always the ones with an understandable reason for what theyre doing, and many people agree.

Showing what Bor had done to Malekith doesn't make Thor any less sympathetic. And he is the protagonist, not The Asgardians. In myth and in the comics, it's well known that the Asgardians, and particularly Odin and Bor, have done some unseemly and underhanded things.

If anything, I think it makes Thor an even better hero, that he doesn't give in to the pettiness and the "I'm the King!" mentality.

So just because Loki is a sympathetic figure, that doesn't mean Malekith's backstory and relationships can't be fleshed out a bit more, especially when the biggest criticism we've heard of the film so far is that Malekith is underdeveloped. So my question for you Rock is, I guess, would adding 5 minutes of his story really hurt the film that much??


All that said, I friggin love Thor, and I'm still hopeful I will enjoy the hell out of the movie.
I'm not arguing against "fleshing out" Malekith some more. What I'm saying is that based on the script they went with and after they were going through it on the editing room floor, don't you think it's possible that they came to the conclusion they were inadvertently changing the role of the Asgardians within the MCU by telling Mal's story of his children being murdered at the hands of the All-Father's Father?

To me that makes no sense based on what we know of this universe.

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Yeah, Odin isn't a nice person in the final cut either (he's a racist and classist ruler who couldn't care less about the lifes of other species, or his own soldiers for that matter), so showing Bor being antagonistic wouldn't have affected our perception of Asgardian monarchy.
Haven't seen the movie yet, but I'm not buying your exaggerations for a second. We're talking about Bor slaughtering children of the Dark Elves in cold blood. You do that and suddenly the Asgardians aren't the protectors anymore. They're phonies and that would make everything inconsistent from what's been developed to this point.

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Old 11-07-2013, 06:12 PM   #327
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Yes, it does change things and for the better. Marvel would do well to inject some moral ambiguity into their characters and races. The Asgardians don't all have to be shining beacons of justice and morals. Show me some grey morals. Some questionable actions. Ya know? Make them a little more "real" and a little less cookie cutter. And i mean more than just Loki. He isnt even asgardian and i know he isnt the only bad or questionable person in asgard. I would have loved for them to turn things their head. A "justified" villain and Thor having to struggle with the fact his grandfather was a heartless bastard and his people aren't quite as good as he once thought.
You just described a Nolan film. That's not what Marvel is trying to create. It's not a drama with comic book characters in it. It's a comic book movie first and foremost.

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Old 11-07-2013, 06:14 PM   #328
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I'm not arguing against "fleshing out" Malekith some more. What I'm saying is that based on the script they went with and after they were going through it on the editing room floor, don't you think it's possible that they came to the conclusion they were inadvertently changing the role of the Asgardians within the MCU by telling Mal's story of his children being murdered at the hands of the All-Father's Father?

To me that makes no sense based on what we know of this universe.



Haven't seen the movie yet, but I'm not buying your exaggerations for a second. We're talking about Bor slaughtering children of the Dark Elves in cold blood. You do that and suddenly the Asgardians aren't the protectors anymore. They're phonies and that would make everything inconsistent from what's been developed to this point.
Uh no...just no. That'd be like saying because Hitler had millions of jews killed all Germans are phonies and can't be good people. Not all asgardians are phony because of what bor did. And not all asgardians are going to be good people. Presenting it like they do no wrong however is actually phony. Its cookie cutter and its childish.

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Old 11-07-2013, 06:17 PM   #329
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Uh no...just no. That'd be like saying because Hitler had millions of jews killed all Germans are phonies and can't be good people. Not all asgardians are phony because of what bor did. And not all asgardians are going to be good people. Presenting it like they do no wrong however is actually phony. Its cookie cutter and its childish world development.
Not even remotely a transitive comparison.

The Asgardians were branded the protectors of the Nine Realms as per the first Thor movie. That's their role, it's clearly said openly in the movie and established that way. Protectors do not murder children in cold blood.

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Old 11-07-2013, 06:20 PM   #330
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The comics have plenty of grey and straight up bad Asgardians/part Asgardians. Amora and Skurge being two.

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Uh no...just no. That'd be like saying because Hitler had millions of jews killed all Germans are phonies and can't be good people. Not all asgardians are phony because of what bor did. And not all asgardians are going to be good people. Presenting it like they do no wrong however is actually phony. Its cookie cutter and its childish.
Thank you. Adding a little bit of strong character writing won't hurt anyone. Well except for Rock who seems to think character and depth is a Nolan trait and thus a bad thing.

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Old 11-07-2013, 06:22 PM   #331
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Not even remotely a transitive comparison.

The Asgardians were branded the protectors of the Nine Realms as per the first Thor movie. That's their role, it's clearly said openly in the movie and established that way. Protectors do not murder children in cold blood.
Vikings, crusading knights, any army you'd like to list in the history of mankind, including our US army today, etc.

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Old 11-07-2013, 06:28 PM   #332
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Not even remotely a transitive comparison.

The Asgardians were branded the protectors of the Nine Realms as per the first Thor movie. That's their role, it's clearly said openly in the movie and established that way. Protectors do not murder children in cold blood.
So your saying a race of living sentient beings with free will are incapable of having bad people or morally ambiguous people born into said race? That Bor couldn't be a dick because they are supposed to be "protectors"? Because cops are protectors and their are a gajillion dick cops who hurt people. Asgardians aren't rolled off an assembly line. Their will be bad ones as well as good ones. And just beuse Bor was a dick it doesn't mean Asgradians can't be protectors or that Thor is no longer a good guy. It just means Bor was a dick and Asgard and the nine realms are better off without him and the problems he created.

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Old 11-07-2013, 06:28 PM   #333
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So your saying a race of living sentient beings with free will are incapable of having ***** born into said race? That Bor couldn't be a dick because they are "protectors"? Because cops are protectors and their are a gajillion dick cops who hurt people.
Thank you for video phones.

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Old 11-07-2013, 06:33 PM   #334
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Thor/Mal battle from Marvel
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpED...em-uploademail

just a hair different

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Old 11-07-2013, 06:39 PM   #335
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Not even remotely a transitive comparison.

The Asgardians were branded the protectors of the Nine Realms as per the first Thor movie. That's their role, it's clearly said openly in the movie and established that way. Protectors do not murder children in cold blood.
like Darth pointed out THEY DID in the past.
Also keep in Mind it was BOR that did that too. Odin doesn't seem to be like Bor, but he can and has been just as much of an Arse by thinking he doesn't need to tell everyone what he does and why.

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Old 11-07-2013, 06:59 PM   #336
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From an poster:"Brokeback Asgard: The Passion of the Hammer"

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Old 11-07-2013, 07:23 PM   #337
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like Darth pointed out THEY DID in the past.
Also keep in Mind it was BOR that did that too. Odin doesn't seem to be like Bor, but he can and has been just as much of an Arse by thinking he doesn't need to tell everyone what he does and why.
Isn't there like a 10,000 year period between Thor and Bor in the films? Is it really that hard to believe that Asgardians have changed a bit and have past sins that some might not like to recall? Perhaps it was a very tough choice for Bor? Odin has also shown a very harsh side as well.

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Old 11-07-2013, 07:25 PM   #338
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Not even remotely a transitive comparison.

The Asgardians were branded the protectors of the Nine Realms as per the first Thor movie. That's their role, it's clearly said openly in the movie and established that way. Protectors do not murder children in cold blood.
Harry Truman ordered the dropping of the atomic bomb on civilians in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Richard Nixon ordered the covert carpet bombing of civilians in Cambodia. Yet America serves the same protector role only on earth. We killed Muammar Gaddafi grand children in a missle stirke. We also killed Ossma bin laden 14 year old son when we raided his home.

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Old 11-07-2013, 07:31 PM   #339
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The King of Asgard for 5 mins, tried to destroy all the Frost Giants.

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Old 11-07-2013, 07:43 PM   #340
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Isn't there like a 10,000 year period between Thor and Bor in the films? Is it really that hard to believe that Asgardians have changed a bit and have past sins that some might not like to recall? Perhaps it was a very tough choice for Bor? Odin has also shown a very harsh side as well.
I'm not sure yet how long between Thor and Bor, but it seems to ME with the first film that Odin is harsh, but, he actually took in Loki, an enemy's child to try to bring peace. Bor probably would have passed Loki up.

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Old 11-07-2013, 07:52 PM   #341
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I'm not sure yet how long between Thor and Bor, but it seems to ME with the first film that Odin is harsh, but, he actually took in Loki, an enemy's child to try to bring peace. Bor probably would have passed Loki up.
I think the event Malekith is looking to use happens every 10,000 years, and there is the mention that there is about 5,000 year different in Asgardian and human life spans. So considering Odin is rather old and near the end of his life, and Thor is close to being king, it would make a lot of sense.

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Old 11-07-2013, 08:04 PM   #342
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I think the event Malekith is looking to use happens every 10,000 years, and there is the mention that there is about 5,000 year different in Asgardian and human life spans. So considering Odin is rather old and near the end of his life, and Thor is close to being king, it would make a lot of sense.
the Convergence happens every 5,000 years. I haven't seen anything on WHEN Bor's actions took place even in the Young readers novel. It COULD be around that amount of time. Still tho even in the Comics Bor and Odin didn't get along for different reason Thor and Odin don't.

Bor was angry with Odin for starting Life on Earth for example

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Old 11-07-2013, 08:11 PM   #343
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Thor/Mal battle from Marvel
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpED...em-uploademail

just a hair different
What's the difference?

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Old 11-07-2013, 08:12 PM   #344
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the Convergence happens every 5,000 years. I haven't seen anything on WHEN Bor's actions took place even in the Young readers novel. It COULD be around that amount of time. Still tho even in the Comics Bor and Odin didn't get along for different reason Thor and Odin don't.

Bor was angry with Odin for starting Life on Earth for example
That timeline actually works better. Bor near the end of his reign battles Malekith, Odin ascends sometime after give or take a millennium, and now we are near the end of his reign.

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Old 11-07-2013, 08:27 PM   #345
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What's the difference?
there's a tad more on the beginning i think

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Old 11-07-2013, 08:28 PM   #346
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That timeline actually works better. Bor near the end of his reign battles Malekith, Odin ascends sometime after give or take a millennium, and now we are near the end of his reign.
yeah makes sense to me unless it's shortened lol

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Old 11-07-2013, 08:35 PM   #347
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here's that Marvel/Netflix you tube just came out
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7NS...&feature=share

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Old 11-07-2013, 09:01 PM   #348
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here's that Marvel/Netflix you tube just came out
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7NS...&feature=share
What does this mean exactly?

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Old 11-07-2013, 09:07 PM   #349
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What does this mean exactly?
MARVEL is going to make four tv shows to air only on Netflix like Wallking Dead.
Luke Cage, Jessica Jones, Dare Devil, and Iron Fist THEN there will be a Defenders tv series

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Old 11-07-2013, 09:11 PM   #350
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MARVEL is going to make four tv shows to air only on Netflix like Wallking Dead.
Luke Cage, Jessica Jones, Dare Devil, and Iron Fist THEN there will be a Defenders tv series
ongoing conversations are here
http://forums.superherohype.com/show...466821&page=12

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