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Old 11-13-2013, 07:45 PM   #76
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Default Re: Doomsday, the main villain (physical fight)!!!???

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Except the prequel MOS comic showed that the FOS ship was the same one that Kara and her group piloted. Hence, it's more plausible to assume that the FOS open pod is trying to show that Kara escaped rather than Doomsday.

I don't think so. Metallo could function as a really good climactic villain. He would pose as a challenge to Superman, seeing as how he has an elemental advantage over him (kryptonite, which I would think would be radically changed but similar in a way). One could even write motivations for him. Say John Corben was one of the affected victims in the Superman-Zod fight. Relied on LexCorp's prothesis to survive. Luthor modifies him to take on Superman. You not only have a revenge fantasy subplot, but you also establish a personal connection between Corben and Superman. He's no Joker, but with good writing, he has potential to be a downright awesome villain.

The problem with Doomsday is that he doesn't give you much space to allow humans to be saved. The Death of Superman comic showed this nicely. Superman was able to save humans, but for the most part, it was a struggle to do so when you've got a wrecking ball killing others in another area. I'm not saying that saving humans is going to be easy, but rather, people are going to take offense to Doomsday's destructive behaviour similarly to how Zod reacted in MOS. Not to mention, the collateral damage would easily dwarf Zod's battle.

Not necessarily. You don't need more destruction to have an epic feel. Why not build around an epic and personal fight scene between Superman and another villain? Where the stakes don't involve the entire city.
We were like talking to wall. Lol

The story u wrote for john corben is so boring n done many times b4.

I just dont get it why u r so against doomsday n destruction.

I think it's high possible as Synder has guts.

And it's the way how henry can surpass reeve legacy. N truly be the greatest superhero ever made.

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Old 11-13-2013, 07:51 PM   #77
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Default Re: Doomsday, the main villain (physical fight)!!!???

I don't think ANY comic film has a chance to really surpass Donner/Reeve's films as the earliest big budget superhero movies. But if anything, Henry's Clark/ Supes should prove himself as a gentleman, reporter, analyst, leader (oil scene was great, we need more of that) and friend (from Clark's personal friends to strangers he meets and cares for as Supes).

THEN audiences and critics will be emotionally invested in him, and will be more excited when he kicks tail.

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Old 11-13-2013, 08:34 PM   #78
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Default Re: Doomsday, the main villain (physical fight)!!!???

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I think if they introduce Doomsday at ANY point (be it this film, or 2/3 films ahead), then it's important that they have a decent backstory for him. Otherwise he's just a raging behemoth like we've seen in a thousand fantasy or sci-fi films.

What I liked about Doomsday's entrance in the comics was the initial mystery surrounding him. He didn't speak, he didn't communicate, he didn't make demands, and no-one had ever seen him before. He simply destroyed anything he encountered. And then they started to explore his backstory, and Superman learnt the shocking truth that Doomsday had come from Krypton, just like him. And I thought the notion of him evolving through thousands of cloning procedures - repeatedly being killed, cloned, facing enemies, and repeating - was a fantastic one, with Doomsday being forced to evolve into an unstoppable force.

Doomsday would actually represent the notion of selective breeding and pre-ordained traits (as introduced in MOS) on an even bigger scale than Zod and his cohorts did. Zod was bred to be a soldier, but was still capable of interacting with those around him, working with his own group, and so on. Doomsday on the other hand could be bred to be an absolutely mindless killing machine who doesn't differentiate between friend or foe; he simply destroys.
Agreed, I loved Doomsday's origin, was very unique and a great way of describing why he was such a monster. And with cloning so abundant on MOS's version of Krypton, it is a perfect way of introducing Doomsday as an early cloning experiment to bread the perfect soldier. I think it could be amazing and very accurate to the comics.

BUT, this movie is probably too early and not really the right one to introduce him IMO. A direct MOS sequel or threequel would be more fitting. Lex and Metallo, or Brainiac, Parasite would be more fitting for this movie simple because Superman and Batman alone will take up a lot of the story.

Even Ruin could be done as Hamilton was sucked into the Phantom Zone in MOS.

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Old 11-13-2013, 10:55 PM   #79
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Default Re: Doomsday, the main villain (physical fight)!!!???

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We were like talking to wall. Lol

The story u wrote for john corben is so boring n done many times b4.

I just dont get it why u r so against doomsday n destruction.

I think it's high possible as Synder has guts.

And it's the way how henry can surpass reeve legacy. N truly be the greatest superhero ever made.
I didn't say it had to be the definitive John Corben story. I just said that it's one way of doing it. And even then, how has it been done many times before? As far as I'm concerned, there hasn't been a cinematic representation of Metallo, so you're either talking about comics or animations. Both of which are irrelevant since we're dealing with film.

I already told you. I'm against it because it doesn't make sense right now. The logical continuation of Superman's arc is to have Lex Luthor and all of Metropolis (and the world) question his actions. He has to prove to everyone that he can be a hero. Whereas, Doomsday comes at a time when everyone trusted Superman to do the right thing. That's why I sense a disconnect. Snyder's Superman is not ready for this sort of confrontation. Not yet.

Not to mention, Zod already destroyed Metropolis once, we don't need to see Metropolis get wrecked again so soon...let it have a couple of more movies before we introduce absurdly high stakes.

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Old 11-13-2013, 11:39 PM   #80
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Default Re: Doomsday, the main villain (physical fight)!!!???

Did anyone catch the Doomsday reference/Easter Egg in the special features???

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Old 11-13-2013, 11:41 PM   #81
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Default Re: Doomsday, the main villain (physical fight)!!!???

yes, many of us caught the reference, I think it's safe to rule him out from this movie in any major way, wouldn't be surprised to see him in a sequel though.

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Old 11-13-2013, 11:44 PM   #82
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Default Re: Doomsday, the main villain (physical fight)!!!???

Maybe third time asking this question will be the charm. Where in the special features disk is this Doomsday reference?

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Old 11-13-2013, 11:45 PM   #83
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Default Re: Doomsday, the main villain (physical fight)!!!???

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yes, many of us caught the reference, I think it's safe to rule him out from this movie in any major way, wouldn't be surprised to see him in a sequel though.
Yeah I don't expect him to be in this movie but I hope they don't rule him out completely

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Old 11-13-2013, 11:47 PM   #84
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Default Re: Doomsday, the main villain (physical fight)!!!???

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Maybe third time asking this question will be the charm. Where in the special features disk is this Doomsday reference?
If I remember correctly it's on the Planet Krypton documentary

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Old 11-14-2013, 01:17 AM   #85
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Default Re: Doomsday, the main villain (physical fight)!!!???

^Will have to check that doc out, I know its not much, but its a cool little reference to what we could get in the future.

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Old 11-14-2013, 07:34 AM   #86
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Default Re: Doomsday, the main villain (physical fight)!!!???

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I didn't say it had to be the definitive John Corben story. I just said that it's one way of doing it. And even then, how has it been done many times before? As far as I'm concerned, there hasn't been a cinematic representation of Metallo, so you're either talking about comics or animations. Both of which are irrelevant since we're dealing with film.

I already told you. I'm against it because it doesn't make sense right now. The logical continuation of Superman's arc is to have Lex Luthor and all of Metropolis (and the world) question his actions. He has to prove to everyone that he can be a hero. Whereas, Doomsday comes at a time when everyone trusted Superman to do the right thing. That's why I sense a disconnect. Snyder's Superman is not ready for this sort of confrontation. Not yet.

Not to mention, Zod already destroyed Metropolis once, we don't need to see Metropolis get wrecked again so soon...let it have a couple of more movies before we introduce absurdly high stakes.
I mean the story itself where the hero indirectly is responsible for the villain's misfortune. That's tiresome.

Any suggestion how superman win the people trust?

So u prefer no destruction scene when there is a phyical fighting???

Btw, i hate it when the movie spends too much time explaining the background of the villain which will neglect on the hero story n development.
That's why I think DOOMSDAY is just nice. Evolved fr the ancient soldier escaped fr the FOS. Job done. All the time then can go to Clark., Lois, lex, n Bruce.

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Old 11-14-2013, 07:42 AM   #87
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Default Re: Doomsday, the main villain (physical fight)!!!???

You can have destruction and fighting without Doomsday. I'm sure we will have good action sequences in the next movie, regardless of who the villain is.

What matters is the story. A doomsday story simply does not fit here, it makes no sense as an MoS sequel.

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Old 11-14-2013, 08:23 PM   #88
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Default Re: Doomsday, the main villain (physical fight)!!!???

^While I love Doomsday, I have to agree, its too early for him, save him for a direct MOS sequel or threequel. Him and Darkseid are Supermans toughest foes, so they need to be saved for the last movies IMO.

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Old 11-14-2013, 08:38 PM   #89
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Default Re: Doomsday, the main villain (physical fight)!!!???

Metallo could fit the story well AND gives us a cool fight scene, just on a somewhat smaller scale than Zod.

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Old 11-14-2013, 08:39 PM   #90
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Default Re: Doomsday, the main villain (physical fight)!!!???

^Yeah, I think he would fit better with this story as Snyder said it was going to be more earth based than MOS.

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Old 11-14-2013, 11:36 PM   #91
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Default Re: Doomsday, the main villain (physical fight)!!!???

what's so special about metallo, giving him the final fight in a millions dollar movie???!!!
superman can defeat an army of robots with ease, but he is struggling to fight a single robot??? how dumb and stupid is that???

don't talk kryptonite. with the K rock, u don't need a robot to defeat superman.

or r we the sour grape who wanna see superman defeat a ironman type of metallo???

if batman isn't too soon, doomsday is neither.

c'mon. it's a battle with the Avenger 2!!!
u think metallo has the drawing power as doomsday???

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Old 11-14-2013, 11:55 PM   #92
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Default Re: Doomsday, the main villain (physical fight)!!!???

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what's so special about metallo, giving him the final fight in a millions dollar movie???!!!
superman can defeat an army of robots with ease, but he is struggling to fight a single robot??? how dumb and stupid is that???

don't talk kryptonite. with the K rock, u don't need a robot to defeat superman.

or r we the sour grape who wanna see superman defeat a ironman type of metallo???

if batman isn't too soon, doomsday is neither.

c'mon. it's a battle with the Avenger 2!!!
u think metallo has the drawing power as doomsday???
Just because it's a blockbuster film, it doesn't mean that you focus solely on action. You still need to tell a story.

Your analogy doesn't take into account that Metallo traditionally has an advantage over Superman. And yet, you already presume that Kryptonite will exist, when MOS didn't confront such possibilities and it seems very unlikely that Kryptonite would exist in Snyder's continuity. Moreover, you're stuck on one interpretation of Metallo. If Goyer and Snyder are writing Metallo into the film, who's to say that they don't have a radical interpretation of Metallo? And who's to say that maybe they actually do a good job? Not everything has to be Michael Bay style of dumb action for the sake of.

And saying Batman's presence not being early = Doomsday isn't early is just facepalm worthy. With Batman, they're trying to build a DC cinematic universe. Doomsday is traditionally the conclusion of a story (one that ends in the death of a superhero). Tell me again how these two situations are similar so much so that one's presence justifies the other...? And tell me how Doomsday makes sense now? You're looking at it solely from an action/spectacle perspective instead of a story/arc driven perspective.

Avengers had an epic battle scene, and Joss Whedon himself said that Avengers II won't be as "epic" as the first one. So sequels don't ALWAYS have to raise the stakes so much.

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Old 11-15-2013, 12:22 AM   #93
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Default Re: Doomsday, the main villain (physical fight)!!!???

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what's so special about metallo, giving him the final fight in a millions dollar movie???!!!
superman can defeat an army of robots with ease, but he is struggling to fight a single robot??? how dumb and stupid is that???

don't talk kryptonite. with the K rock, u don't need a robot to defeat superman.

or r we the sour grape who wanna see superman defeat a ironman type of metallo???

if batman isn't too soon, doomsday is neither.

c'mon. it's a battle with the Avenger 2!!!
u think metallo has the drawing power as doomsday???
You really think Ultron has the drawing power Loki had?(I personally think it's going to be awesome but Loki was already established going into Avengers and Ultron will not have that luxury)

But that's not even the point.

Doomsday is known for one thing and one thing only. Killing Superman. If you don't use Doomsday for the explicit purpose of killing Superman, then what's the point?

Do you HONESTLY think that they would kill Superman THIS early in the franchise, let alone AT ALL?

Otherwise he's just a big monster that Superman fights in Metropolis. And if it just boils down to a fight, you can use any of his super-powered villains.

Metallo gives us a big fight, allows a really great introduction for Kryptonite and, if Lex builds Metallo, gives us a great lead-in for Superman's and Lex's hate for each other.

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Old 11-15-2013, 12:53 AM   #94
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Default Re: Doomsday, the main villain (physical fight)!!!???

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You really think Ultron has the drawing power Loki had?(I personally think it's going to be awesome but Loki was already established going into Avengers and Ultron will not have that luxury)

But that's not even the point.

Doomsday is known for one thing and one thing only. Killing Superman. If you don't use Doomsday for the explicit purpose of killing Superman, then what's the point?

Do you HONESTLY think that they would kill Superman THIS early in the franchise, let alone AT ALL?

Otherwise he's just a big monster that Superman fights in Metropolis. And if it just boils down to a fight, you can use any of his super-powered villains.

Metallo gives us a big fight, allows a really great introduction for Kryptonite and, if Lex builds Metallo, gives us a great lead-in for Superman's and Lex's hate for each other.
don't talk me the Thor2. that's thrash. the story and Ultron? are lame!!! nobody knows Ultron?, just like nobody knows Metallo. but people know Loki, people know about doomsday, the monster who killed superman in the comic!!! are they really gonna kill superman in the movie, ain't they!!!??? f***???!!! we gotta watch the movie!!!
that's the exciting part. that's the drawing power!!!
on another hand, metallo? an hybrid of ironman and terminator??? superman can't fight that??? that's so odd... i think we better watch TA2.

btw, the nobody and people, i'm talking here are the general audience.

besides, i don't like your hate theme. superman doesn't hate Lex. he just fighting for you know what. whereas, Lex doesn't hate superman. he just wanna destroy him because he is blocking his way.

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Old 11-15-2013, 12:58 AM   #95
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Default Re: Doomsday, the main villain (physical fight)!!!???

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Just because it's a blockbuster film, it doesn't mean that you focus solely on action. You still need to tell a story.

Your analogy doesn't take into account that Metallo traditionally has an advantage over Superman. And yet, you already presume that Kryptonite will exist, when MOS didn't confront such possibilities and it seems very unlikely that Kryptonite would exist in Snyder's continuity. Moreover, you're stuck on one interpretation of Metallo. If Goyer and Snyder are writing Metallo into the film, who's to say that they don't have a radical interpretation of Metallo? And who's to say that maybe they actually do a good job? Not everything has to be Michael Bay style of dumb action for the sake of.

And saying Batman's presence not being early = Doomsday isn't early is just facepalm worthy. With Batman, they're trying to build a DC cinematic universe. Doomsday is traditionally the conclusion of a story (one that ends in the death of a superhero). Tell me again how these two situations are similar so much so that one's presence justifies the other...? And tell me how Doomsday makes sense now? You're looking at it solely from an action/spectacle perspective instead of a story/arc driven perspective.

Avengers had an epic battle scene, and Joss Whedon himself said that Avengers II won't be as "epic" as the first one. So sequels don't ALWAYS have to raise the stakes so much.
Agreed with this, and Metallo can still give Superman a very good fight, he has beaten Superman a few times in the comics. Plus I cant see them not using Kyptonite at some point, Metallo is a great way to introduce it, and a great way to introduce Lex as well.

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You really think Ultron has the drawing power Loki had?(I personally think it's going to be awesome but Loki was already established going into Avengers and Ultron will not have that luxury)

But that's not even the point.

Doomsday is known for one thing and one thing only. Killing Superman. If you don't use Doomsday for the explicit purpose of killing Superman, then what's the point?

Do you HONESTLY think that they would kill Superman THIS early in the franchise, let alone AT ALL?

Otherwise he's just a big monster that Superman fights in Metropolis. And if it just boils down to a fight, you can use any of his super-powered villains.

Metallo gives us a big fight, allows a really great introduction for Kryptonite and, if Lex builds Metallo, gives us a great lead-in for Superman's and Lex's hate for each other.
Agree with all but especially the bolded. As I said before Metallo still gives Superman physical fight, and then Lex adds the brains, it would be a good follow-up and something different a little to the last movie.

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Old 11-15-2013, 01:06 AM   #96
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Default Re: Doomsday, the main villain (physical fight)!!!???

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Just because it's a blockbuster film, it doesn't mean that you focus solely on action. You still need to tell a story.

Your analogy doesn't take into account that Metallo traditionally has an advantage over Superman. And yet, you already presume that Kryptonite will exist, when MOS didn't confront such possibilities and it seems very unlikely that Kryptonite would exist in Snyder's continuity. Moreover, you're stuck on one interpretation of Metallo. If Goyer and Snyder are writing Metallo into the film, who's to say that they don't have a radical interpretation of Metallo? And who's to say that maybe they actually do a good job? Not everything has to be Michael Bay style of dumb action for the sake of.

And saying Batman's presence not being early = Doomsday isn't early is just facepalm worthy. With Batman, they're trying to build a DC cinematic universe. Doomsday is traditionally the conclusion of a story (one that ends in the death of a superhero). Tell me again how these two situations are similar so much so that one's presence justifies the other...? And tell me how Doomsday makes sense now? You're looking at it solely from an action/spectacle perspective instead of a story/arc driven perspective.

Avengers had an epic battle scene, and Joss Whedon himself said that Avengers II won't be as "epic" as the first one. So sequels don't ALWAYS have to raise the stakes so much.
when did i say i want it to focus solely on action???
is MOS focus solely on action???

it will be pure stupid and dumb if superman can't defeat a without kryptonite Metallo. (more stupid than the invincible flaming armies in IM3 and the robot-suited old man in wolverine who chopped off his indestructible claws)

who said the doomsday story can't contribute to the building of a DC cinematic universe??? can't they write doomsday differently??? is general Zod the exactly same zod from the comic??? is the planet krypton exactly the same as the comic??? even superman isn't the same from the comic book. and he destroyed property to tell his stand!!!

the Avenger has made billions and universally praised. the same can't be said to MOS. u gotta raise the stake in order to battle the titans.

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Old 11-15-2013, 06:47 AM   #97
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Default Re: Doomsday, the main villain (physical fight)!!!???

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the Avenger has made billions and universally praised.
The Avengers did not make billions because of its action scenes, which were actually quite mediocre.

Notice the most popular action shot in that movie is that of Hulk smashing Loki. Do people love it because of the special effects and the destruction, or because it's properly built up by the story?

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Old 11-15-2013, 10:19 PM   #98
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Default Re: Doomsday, the main villain (physical fight)!!!???

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Just because it's a blockbuster film, it doesn't mean that you focus solely on action. You still need to tell a story.

Your analogy doesn't take into account that Metallo traditionally has an advantage over Superman. And yet, you already presume that Kryptonite will exist, when MOS didn't confront such possibilities and it seems very unlikely that Kryptonite would exist in Snyder's continuity. Moreover, you're stuck on one interpretation of Metallo. If Goyer and Snyder are writing Metallo into the film, who's to say that they don't have a radical interpretation of Metallo? And who's to say that maybe they actually do a good job? Not everything has to be Michael Bay style of dumb action for the sake of.

And saying Batman's presence not being early = Doomsday isn't early is just facepalm worthy. With Batman, they're trying to build a DC cinematic universe. Doomsday is traditionally the conclusion of a story (one that ends in the death of a superhero). Tell me again how these two situations are similar so much so that one's presence justifies the other...? And tell me how Doomsday makes sense now? You're looking at it solely from an action/spectacle perspective instead of a story/arc driven perspective.

Avengers had an epic battle scene, and Joss Whedon himself said that Avengers II won't be as "epic" as the first one. So sequels don't ALWAYS have to raise the stakes so much.
Umm, it is not AT ALL clear that Kryptonite won't exist in this continuity, people need to stop saying that. Synder said that it wouldn't appear in MOS specifically, because it wasn't needed since you had Zod and the Kryptonians. However, he said NOTHING about it appearing or not appearing in sequels.

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Old 11-15-2013, 10:23 PM   #99
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Default Re: Doomsday, the main villain (physical fight)!!!???

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when did i say i want it to focus solely on action???
is MOS focus solely on action???

it will be pure stupid and dumb if superman can't defeat a without kryptonite Metallo. (more stupid than the invincible flaming armies in IM3 and the robot-suited old man in wolverine who chopped off his indestructible claws)

who said the doomsday story can't contribute to the building of a DC cinematic universe??? can't they write doomsday differently??? is general Zod the exactly same zod from the comic??? is the planet krypton exactly the same as the comic??? even superman isn't the same from the comic book. and he destroyed property to tell his stand!!!

the Avenger has made billions and universally praised. the same can't be said to MOS. u gotta raise the stake in order to battle the titans.
Why would it be stupid for Superman to have trouble with Metallo? He's a cyborg with a huge chunk of the thing that is deadly to Superman in his chest. It make pefect sense that Superman would have problems dealing with him. He can't even get close to Metallo without being affected by the Kryptonite. Also, the SS thing from TW wasn't stupid either since:
A. Silver Samurai's sword was ALSO made out of Adamantium.
B. It was bigger and denser than Wolverine's claws.
C. The sword was super-heated Adamantium.

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Old 11-15-2013, 11:22 PM   #100
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Default Re: Doomsday, the main villain (physical fight)!!!???

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when did i say i want it to focus solely on action???
is MOS focus solely on action???

it will be pure stupid and dumb if superman can't defeat a without kryptonite Metallo. (more stupid than the invincible flaming armies in IM3 and the robot-suited old man in wolverine who chopped off his indestructible claws)

who said the doomsday story can't contribute to the building of a DC cinematic universe??? can't they write doomsday differently??? is general Zod the exactly same zod from the comic??? is the planet krypton exactly the same as the comic??? even superman isn't the same from the comic book. and he destroyed property to tell his stand!!!

the Avenger has made billions and universally praised. the same can't be said to MOS. u gotta raise the stake in order to battle the titans.
DA_Champion said this nicely. The Avengers wasn't praised because of its battle scenes. It was because of the story and the nuances that Whedon added. And as a result, it made the battle that much more rewarding. If you watch the final battle as a standalone, it isn't all that great. One of the biggest knock I'd have to give is that the Chitauris were basically ****-auris. No sense of challenge at all when fighting them, so you kind of get the sense that the Avengers would win anyways.

Again, you keep operating under the idea that you HAVE to raise the stakes for the sequels, except stories may not fit properly into that formula. For instance, Spider-Man 2 and X-2 come to mind as stories where they didn't amp up the action (or at the very least, didn't escalate as much) in relation to their prequels, and they were still successful for it. Having Zod and Superman's fight destroy a city block (that mind you, the audience is either split on or downright hated that creative choice), and then introduce a character that has even more thirst for wanton destruction. That won't sit right with people. So a story has to be developed around making Superman the man he is.

Zod is closely adapted from the comics. He may not be the exact same Zod, but he's close enough that no one would mistake him for Zod. The problem is, how do you re-write Doomsday so that he's not Zod v.2.0 or another dumb destructive villain when he's destroying **** in Metropolis? I'd rather he be kept for the conclusion.

How would it be pure and dumb? You introduce a way to weaken Superman. Was it dumb that Superman was weakened in MOS whenever he entered a place that had Kryptonian atmosphere? That was basically how Kryptonite works without blatantly saying it's Kryptonite. At least the pseudo-science behind it made some sense. It can be effective if it's well-thought out a la MOS.

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Originally Posted by DA_Champion View Post
The Avengers did not make billions because of its action scenes, which were actually quite mediocre.

Notice the most popular action shot in that movie is that of Hulk smashing Loki. Do people love it because of the special effects and the destruction, or because it's properly built up by the story?
Misquote. :P

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Originally Posted by Loki882 View Post
Umm, it is not AT ALL clear that Kryptonite won't exist in this continuity, people need to stop saying that. Synder said that it wouldn't appear in MOS specifically, because it wasn't needed since you had Zod and the Kryptonians. However, he said NOTHING about it appearing or not appearing in sequels.
That's not what I said. I said it seems very unlikely that it would appear in the sequels. And by this, I meant I'm assuming that the lore involving Kryptonite may be radically re-worked in order to fit the tone and logic of their movie.

I'm not saying it as if it came from Snyder's mouth. I'm not that idiotic and I've read that article you speak of where Snyder left Kryptonite as a potential plot device for sequels.

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