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Old 11-19-2013, 09:25 AM   #51
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Default Re: Fantastic Four reborn! - Part 8

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It's extremely ignorant and arrogant for a film-maker to come along and say: "I can 'improve' these characters. I've got some really cool ideas that will make them a lot better than the versions that fans have followed for the past 50 years."

Stan Lee and Jack Kirby are icons. Mark Millar and Josh Trank have talent, but they haven't earned the right to assume they are smarter than the legends who actually created properties that have now shown themselves to be worth billions.
So are the people over at Marvel/Disney "arrogant filmmakers" who haven't earned the right to assume they're smarter than Lee & Kirby since they chose Ultimate Fury, a 10-year-old concept by Bendis and Allred instead of 616 Fury?

Or what about their decision to turn The Mandarin, a 50-year-old Stan Lee creation and arguably Iron Man's primary foe into Aldrich Killian, an 8-year-old character by Ennis and Granov?

There isn't a film studio around incapable of butchering the source material in some misplaced attempt at making their movie more "appealing".

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Old 11-19-2013, 09:56 AM   #52
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Default Re: Fantastic Four reborn! - Part 8

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So are the people over at Marvel/Disney "arrogant filmmakers" who haven't earned the right to assume they're smarter than Lee & Kirby since they chose Ultimate Fury, a 10-year-old concept by Bendis and Allred instead of 616 Fury?

Or what about their decision to turn The Mandarin, a 50-year-old Stan Lee creation and arguably Iron Man's primary foe into Aldrich Killian, an 8-year-old character by Ennis and Granov?

There isn't a film studio around incapable of butchering the source material in some misplaced attempt at making their movie more "appealing".
All of this has been explained by myself and others. Please acknowledge the difference between change for improvement and change just for the sake of it. I explained the most likely reason for the Mandarin switch in a earlier post and the Nick Fury one is based on the ultimates but Marvel can interchange aspects of the 616 and Ultimate. What Fox has done with X-Men and are seemingly doing with the FF is far beyond what Marvel has done with the Mandarin and Nick Fury and even Agent Sitwell. They're changing storylines by casting a Black Johnny Storm if they're continuing to cast a white Sue to add a adoption storyline!?!? Thats over the top change.. Sorry

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Old 11-19-2013, 10:50 AM   #53
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Default Re: Fantastic Four reborn! - Part 8

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All of this has been explained by myself and others. Please acknowledge the difference between change for improvement and change just for the sake of it. I explained the most likely reason for the Mandarin switch in a earlier post and the Nick Fury one is based on the ultimates but Marvel can interchange aspects of the 616 and Ultimate. What Fox has done with X-Men and are seemingly doing with the FF is far beyond what Marvel has done with the Mandarin and Nick Fury and even Agent Sitwell. They're changing storylines by casting a Black Johnny Storm if they're continuing to cast a white Sue to add a adoption storyline!?!? Thats over the top change.. Sorry
In summary, its okay for Marvel/Disney to butcher a character but if Fox does it its wrong.

See, I'm not crazy about a black Johnny Storm either. And I hated Iron Man 3.

I don't play the "this studio sucks/this studio rules" game because both studios have pissed me off in the past.

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Old 11-19-2013, 10:52 AM   #54
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Default Re: Fantastic Four reborn! - Part 8

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So are the people over at Marvel/Disney "arrogant filmmakers" who haven't earned the right to assume they're smarter than Lee & Kirby since they chose Ultimate Fury, a 10-year-old concept by Bendis and Allred instead of 616 Fury?

Or what about their decision to turn The Mandarin, a 50-year-old Stan Lee creation and arguably Iron Man's primary foe into Aldrich Killian, an 8-year-old character by Ennis and Granov?

There isn't a film studio around incapable of butchering the source material in some misplaced attempt at making their movie more "appealing".
I have a problem with any extreme changes. Nick Fury wasn't a departure from the classic (when I was a kid, he was a bad-ass, take no s*** leader of SHIELD and that's exactly what I got on film - just with darker skin than how Kirby drew him), but Mandarin SUCKED and, as I mentioned, I'm not a fan of Iron Man, but without even knowing the original, I can tell you the character I got on film was lousy.

And just because studios screw up regularly doesn't mean we shouldn't ask for them to not screw up, does it?

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Old 11-19-2013, 11:03 AM   #55
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Default Re: Fantastic Four reborn! - Part 8

wrong thread

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Old 11-20-2013, 02:54 AM   #56
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Default Re: Fantastic Four reborn! - Part 8

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I have a problem with any extreme changes. Nick Fury wasn't a departure from the classic (when I was a kid, he was a bad-ass, take no s*** leader of SHIELD and that's exactly what I got on film - just with darker skin than how Kirby drew him), but Mandarin SUCKED and, as I mentioned, I'm not a fan of Iron Man, but without even knowing the original, I can tell you the character I got on film was lousy.

And just because studios screw up regularly doesn't mean we shouldn't ask for them to not screw up, does it?
Good post, we agree on many things.

How do you feel about Annihilus being the villain in this film?

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Old 11-20-2013, 03:08 AM   #57
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Default Re: Fantastic Four reborn! - Part 8

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I have a problem with any extreme changes. Nick Fury wasn't a departure from the classic (when I was a kid, he was a bad-ass, take no s*** leader of SHIELD and that's exactly what I got on film - just with darker skin than how Kirby drew him), but Mandarin SUCKED and, as I mentioned, I'm not a fan of Iron Man, but without even knowing the original, I can tell you the character I got on film was lousy.

And just because studios screw up regularly doesn't mean we shouldn't ask for them to not screw up, does it?
The character we got with Dragon tatoos and karate chopping iron man armors was actually very close to the original character, much moreso than Trevor's acting

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Plenty of male-led action films fail, yet the actors' gender is not blamed. Why should it be different for women? Especially since far more male-led action films are made than female-led action films?
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Old 11-20-2013, 06:41 AM   #58
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Default Re: Fantastic Four reborn! - Part 8

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The character we got with Dragon tatoos and karate chopping iron man armors was actually very close to the original character, much moreso than Trevor's acting
The character we got wasn't The Mandarin. At all. They coulda given us The Mandarin straight out of the books like Favreau promised for years but didn't.

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Old 11-20-2013, 06:48 AM   #59
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Default Re: Fantastic Four reborn! - Part 8

Have you ever read any comic book? The Mandarin was allways vastly different from what the trailers showed. Killian was actually closer to that interpretation, i can see being disapointed with them not using the version from the trailers, which had a classic terrorist in a super-world, but the change being different from the comics isn't really true.

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Plenty of male-led action films fail, yet the actors' gender is not blamed. Why should it be different for women? Especially since far more male-led action films are made than female-led action films?
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Old 11-20-2013, 06:56 AM   #60
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Default Re: Fantastic Four reborn! - Part 8

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Have you ever read any comic book? The Mandarin was allways vastly different from what the trailers showed. Killian was actually closer to that interpretation, i can see being disapointed with them not using the version from the trailers, which had a classic terrorist in a super-world, but the change being different from the comics isn't really true.
I've read the comics. Many of them. The Mandarin from the comics is nothing like Killian was in the movie. If he was I wouldn't hate Iron Man 3.

We didn't get what Favreau was promising. We got a joke at the expense of Iron Man's most iconic foe. I still don't understand how Marvel approved the butchering of a character like that.

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Old 11-20-2013, 09:30 AM   #61
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Default Re: Fantastic Four reborn! - Part 8

It seems Mandarins three fans will be forever upset at his treatment at the hands of Overlord Feige.

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Old 11-20-2013, 09:38 AM   #62
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Default Re: Fantastic Four reborn! - Part 8

I was a bit disapointed at first, but after rewatching the film more times it's easily one of my favorites in the MCU, and i'dd rather get Killian as the Mandarin (since the character can still give Tony a good run for his money) than yet another retcon with a "true Mandarin"

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Plenty of male-led action films fail, yet the actors' gender is not blamed. Why should it be different for women? Especially since far more male-led action films are made than female-led action films?
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Old 11-20-2013, 10:11 AM   #63
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Default Re: Fantastic Four reborn! - Part 8

Most are just pissed because he wasn't slinging the alien rings around. The take they went with is just as valid as any of the multiple ones that have appeared in the comics. The definition of adaptation is "a composition that has been recast into a new form". Sounds right to me.

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Old 11-20-2013, 10:21 AM   #64
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Default Re: Fantastic Four reborn! - Part 8

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Good post, we agree on many things.

How do you feel about Annihilus being the villain in this film?
He (it?) would be my second choice behind a properly done Doom. An Annihilus in the first film leading to Doom in later films would be cool . . . as long as we'll get more than one film. If we're only going to get one film, I'd like to see Doom done right.



As for Mandarin, I don't know the character, so I can only comment about what worked and what didn't work for me as a non-Iron Man fan.

The fake Mandarin we got at the beginning of the film was great. Sure, he was basically a more competent version of Osama Bin Laden, but that makes for a pretty good villain. If he didn't match Mandarin, fine, make him a different character and save Mandarin and/or have him behind the scenes pulling the strings.

But when they did the switch to Killian, it created a terribly anti-climatic ending. Killian was nothing. He had no mojo or screen-presence and didn't present an adequate threat.

Throughout the final battle I couldn't help thinking - "Wait a minute, he has to touch you to hurt you. You can fly and you have an army that can also fly. Why the F*** are you engaging in hand-to-hand combat?!?!"

But again, I'm saying all that without knowing much about the real characters. I'm sure that either Mandarin or Killian could have been done much better, but that film is the weakest Marvel film IMHO.

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Old 11-20-2013, 01:47 PM   #65
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Default Re: Fantastic Four reborn! - Part 8

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Most are just pissed because he wasn't slinging the alien rings around. The take they went with is just as valid as any of the multiple ones that have appeared in the comics. The definition of adaptation is "a composition that has been recast into a new form". Sounds right to me.
There wasn't anything "right" about it. If they were to reveal that Thanos is just a costume The Collector wears to throw people off you wouldn't say "it was a valid take on Thanos because..."

They coulda given us The Mandarin and simply chose not to.

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Old 11-20-2013, 01:56 PM   #66
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Default Re: Fantastic Four reborn! - Part 8

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He (it?) would be my second choice behind a properly done Doom. An Annihilus in the first film leading to Doom in later films would be cool . . . as long as we'll get more than one film. If we're only going to get one film, I'd like to see Doom done right.
I'd like Doom behind the scenes scheming and seeds of Galactus. I think Annihilus would be like the Lizard in Amazing Spider Man in that he's never been done on film so he would smooth the transition back into Doom and Galactus for those who remember Tim Story's movies.

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As for Mandarin, I don't know the character, so I can only comment about what worked and what didn't work for me as a non-Iron Man fan.

The fake Mandarin we got at the beginning of the film was great. Sure, he was basically a more competent version of Osama Bin Laden, but that makes for a pretty good villain. If he didn't match Mandarin, fine, make him a different character and save Mandarin and/or have him behind the scenes pulling the strings.

But when they did the switch to Killian, it created a terribly anti-climatic ending. Killian was nothing. He had no mojo or screen-presence and didn't present an adequate threat.

Throughout the final battle I couldn't help thinking - "Wait a minute, he has to touch you to hurt you. You can fly and you have an army that can also fly. Why the F*** are you engaging in hand-to-hand combat?!?!"
Agreed on everything.

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But again, I'm saying all that without knowing much about the real characters. I'm sure that either Mandarin or Killian could have been done much better, but that film is the weakest Marvel film IMHO.
Yeah, I'd call Iron Man 3 the weakest Marvel/Disney film. Still shocked it made so much money and that those behind it were allowed to make a laughing stock out of such a key Marvel and specially Iron Man villain.

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Old 11-20-2013, 01:58 PM   #67
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Default Re: Fantastic Four reborn! - Part 8

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There wasn't anything "right" about it. If they were to reveal that Thanos is just a costume The Collector wears to throw people off you wouldn't say "it was a valid take on Thanos because..."

They coulda given us The Mandarin and simply chose not to.
If the movie hadn't been clear enough, Killian himself screamed "I am the Mandarin" in the end, so yes, they actually chosed to show the Mandarin

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Plenty of male-led action films fail, yet the actors' gender is not blamed. Why should it be different for women? Especially since far more male-led action films are made than female-led action films?
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Old 11-20-2013, 02:03 PM   #68
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Default Re: Fantastic Four reborn! - Part 8

Its true I was very disappointed with IM3 and how Marvel Studios interpreted the Mandarin. However as sad as it was, I have to say that Marvel has gotten a lot right and when I watch the movies, I actually feel I am watching a version of my Marvel comics come to life. Thor 2 for instance made me feel like I was in a marvel comic same for Avengers, etc.

However, with most of Fox's efforts, they don't feel like I'm watching the characters. It feels more like they take the names and just do what they want with it...there have been some exceptions, but very very few.

With the F4, there is no doubt, it needs to be at Marvel.

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Old 11-20-2013, 02:14 PM   #69
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Default Re: Fantastic Four reborn! - Part 8

I think Fox is starting to get the look right, while not true to the source material, First Class definitelly nailed the look, X-Men 2 and The Wolverine were also good adaptations of classic x-men stories, and if Days of Future Past follows that example, then their next films are going to start to feel more like x-men comics.

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Plenty of male-led action films fail, yet the actors' gender is not blamed. Why should it be different for women? Especially since far more male-led action films are made than female-led action films?
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Old 11-20-2013, 02:16 PM   #70
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Default Re: Fantastic Four reborn! - Part 8

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If the movie hadn't been clear enough, Killian himself screamed "I am the Mandarin" in the end, so yes, they actually chosed to show the Mandarin
They tried to make Killian The Mandarin in essence. They coulda just made him The Mandarin and not Killian.

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Old 11-20-2013, 02:41 PM   #71
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Default Re: Fantastic Four reborn! - Part 8

The Mandarin needs a name too, and just "Mandarin" is just an incredibly racist name for a villain

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Old 11-20-2013, 02:51 PM   #72
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Default Re: Fantastic Four reborn! - Part 8

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The Mandarin needs a name too, and just "Mandarin" is just an incredibly racist name for a villain
Like The American? Clooney movie. Or The Limey? Stamp movie. The Mandarin is a name/character that's been accepted by readers and fans for decades. Shane Black thought he was silly so we got what we got. Just glad not everyone at Marvel thinks Marvel characters are silly.

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Old 11-20-2013, 02:52 PM   #73
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Default Re: Fantastic Four reborn! - Part 8

Changing it's release date to June 2015 may not have been a good move. It's set to come out the same day as Pixar's Inside Out. It comes out the week after Jurassic World. It comes out in between Avengers 2 and Batman vs Superman. And Terminator 5 also comes out around that time as well.

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Old 11-20-2013, 04:54 PM   #74
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Default Re: Fantastic Four reborn! - Part 8

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Its true I was very disappointed with IM3 and how Marvel Studios interpreted the Mandarin. However as sad as it was, I have to say that Marvel has gotten a lot right and when I watch the movies, I actually feel I am watching a version of my Marvel comics come to life. Thor 2 for instance made me feel like I was in a marvel comic same for Avengers, etc.

However, with most of Fox's efforts, they don't feel like I'm watching the characters. It feels more like they take the names and just do what they want with it...there have been some exceptions, but very very few.

With the F4, there is no doubt, it needs to be at Marvel.
Yeah, as I was watching Thor, Dark World, I couldn't help thinking the chances we're extremely slim that we'd ever see the FF in a film with that kind of epic feel.

My hope is that Fox is looking at Thor, Avengers, the Captain America previews, Man of Steel, etc. etc. etc. and realizing they'll have to go big or go home.

Chronicle was a good movie for what it was, but if the FF has that sort of small feel as opposed to something like Thor, it's going to be very disappointing.

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Old 11-20-2013, 07:10 PM   #75
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Default Re: Fantastic Four reborn! - Part 8

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My hope is that Fox is looking at Thor, Avengers, the Captain America previews, Man of Steel, etc. etc. etc. and realizing they'll have to go big or go home.
They are. Days of Future Past is a direct response to The Avengers.

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