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Old 11-22-2013, 03:05 AM   #751
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 10

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Originally Posted by LEVITIKUZ View Post
Why don't you go ask Ghost Rider how his film career is doing? Goyer was a producer for both films.
He didn't have anything to do with those. In name only. His script for 2 was rewritten by Neveldine/Taylor.

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I hear you regarding Feige being arrogant. I think he is overrated IMO. Just riding those Avenger coattails basically.
Riding the coattails of the franchise he built? Okay...

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Old 11-22-2013, 08:33 AM   #752
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Based on the info that we know I wonder what the actual story will be. I wonder if they will borrow from the OMAC storyline from a few years ago where Batman has a spy satellite watching over the superhumans, or in this movie's case, Superman. Maybe he uses the satellite to control the rumored Bat-Drones and at some point Lex/Brianiac seize control over them and cause problems for the heroes.

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Old 11-22-2013, 08:43 AM   #753
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 10

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Originally Posted by NoLaNitE007 View Post
I hear you regarding Feige being arrogant. I think he is overrated IMO. Just riding those Avenger coattails basically.
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I feel like Feige has really only produced movies in the past. I'm glad that WB/DC has someone who can also tell a story.

I'm obviously not a fan of Feige. He's way too arrogant for my taste.
DC would be lucky to have someone like Feige. He's got an incredible knowledge of the comics and he uses that knowledge to keep a shared universe coherent. It's only because of him that something like the Avengers could come together.

Arrogant? I guess I haven't seen that. He comes across like an ubernerd in every interview I've seen with him, but nothing screams "arrogance." I have a feeling some people are bitter towards him because of the MCU's success, which makes no sense to me--but then again, neither does most DC vs. Marvel stuff.

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Old 11-22-2013, 09:06 AM   #754
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 10

if fiege is arrogant, he's earned the right to be. at the very least, the man has spearheaded a concentrated vision and it's worked marvelously for marvel.

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Old 11-22-2013, 09:18 AM   #755
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 10

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DC would be lucky to have someone like Feige. He's got an incredible knowledge of the comics and he uses that knowledge to keep a shared universe coherent. It's only because of him that something like the Avengers could come together.

Arrogant? I guess I haven't seen that. He comes across like an ubernerd in every interview I've seen with him, but nothing screams "arrogance." I have a feeling some people are bitter towards him because of the MCU's success, which makes no sense to me--but then again, neither does most DC vs. Marvel stuff.

Edward Norton says hi.

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Old 11-22-2013, 09:28 AM   #756
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 10

I like how much we will defend Goyer even if it includes bashing Feige. Without Feige, Goyer wouldn't have this. Feige gave you guys a Marvel Cinematic Universe. There were some bumps on the road but still you can't take that away from him. He had a plan and made it happen.

Nothing Goyer has done comes close to anything Whedon has done or any film in the MCU. TDKT is Nolan's baby. Goyer helped but that was Nolan.

Stop defending this hack.

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Old 11-22-2013, 09:40 AM   #757
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 10

Yeah, guys. Stop liking things he doesn't.

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Old 11-22-2013, 09:43 AM   #758
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 10

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Originally Posted by LEVITIKUZ View Post
I like how much we will defend Goyer even if it includes bashing Feige. Without Feige, Goyer wouldn't have this. Feige gave you guys a Marvel Cinematic Universe. There were some bumps on the road but still you can't take that away from him. He had a plan and made it happen.

Nothing Goyer has done comes close to anything Whedon has done or any film in the MCU. TDKT is Nolan's baby. Goyer helped but that was Nolan.

Stop defending this hack.
I like The Avengers and Cabin in the Woods, but other than that, I don't think Whedon is very good. I could never take Buffy seriously. Firefly was canceled after one season for a reason. Dollhouse was terrible. Agents of SH** has a been a massive disappointment.

Oh, and since we love to harp on Goyer for dialogue, let's not forget about Joss Whedon's "toad" line in X-Men.

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Old 11-22-2013, 09:44 AM   #759
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 10

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Originally Posted by LEVITIKUZ View Post
I like how much we will defend Goyer even if it includes bashing Feige. Without Feige, Goyer wouldn't have this. Feige gave you guys a Marvel Cinematic Universe. There were some bumps on the road but still you can't take that away from him. He had a plan and made it happen.

Nothing Goyer has done comes close to anything Whedon has done or any film in the MCU. TDKT is Nolan's baby. Goyer helped but that was Nolan.

Stop defending this hack.
So you think if had not brought his talents to this 'genre' we'd have gotten Avengers, let alone modern cbms as we know them?

Given the timing of all these films, I'd give him more credit than that. What's more, crafting stories seems to require more "talent" than green lighting films or whatever it is the feige does(not sure tbh).

I'm sure when JLA is all said and done and Goyer fans point to him for being that dude that started it all by way of initial pitch and initial scripting that got the studio behind MOS, the detractors will find another way to short change him. It's happened twice already.

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Old 11-22-2013, 09:48 AM   #760
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 10

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Edward Norton says hi.
You mean that guy who is notoriously hard to work with? That's your proof that Feige is arrogant, that he fired Norton?

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Old 11-22-2013, 09:55 AM   #761
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 10

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Oh, and since we love to harp on Goyer for dialogue, let's not forget about Joss Whedon's "toad" line in X-Men.
And every other line he's ever written.

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Old 11-22-2013, 09:57 AM   #762
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 10

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You mean that guy who is notoriously hard to work with? That's your proof that Feige is arrogant, that he fired Norton?
Norton may very well be an arrogant a**hole (in fact, he probably is). My issue with Feige is not that he fired him. It's that he did it in the most classless way possible. The guy issued a public statement practically calling him a douchebag. And Norton's response to it was about as classy as it could have been.

Additionally--and I'm not 100% sure if this is all Feige--it seems like Marvel is so committed to doing things their way that they aren't above pissing off other talents. The mid-credits scene in Thor was HORRIBLE and I can fully understand why Alan Taylor wanted everyone to know that he had nothing to do with that and they forced him to put it into the movie. And we've all heard the stories about Marvel trying to lowball actors when it comes to money.

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Old 11-22-2013, 10:10 AM   #763
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 10

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Funny that you should call Marvel classless and then bring up Taylor and the mid-credit scene. He knew James Gunn directed it and he threw him under the bus in interviews by trashing the scene. He later apologized and gave the "I was tired when I said that" excuse, but the damage was done. You don't do that to another director.

As for Norton, TIH wasn't the first time he's tried to take over the script and editing. I agree that Marvel's statement could have been more generic about his firing. I just re-read it along with Norton's agent's response (which was also harsh). It seems like things broke down during negotiations for Avengers and we'll likely never know exactly what happened between the two camps.
What I know is that Bruce Banner's character keeps getting shallower with every iteration. He was just a plot device in The Avengers to "Hulk Smash" without any character.

With respect to Taylor, Thor 2 is one of the dumbest movies I've ever seen. I don't know if it's Taylor or Feige. I look forward to the next Terminator movie, to see if Taylor is capable of making a good movie when Feige is not around to impose dumb decisions.

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Old 11-22-2013, 10:23 AM   #764
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 10

Mannnnn I had a crazy dream last night. I was Henry Cavil and I was having a party and Brandon Routh was there in a Party City type Superman costume sitting in a lawn chair drinking. He was clearly upset. I mean like pouting and depressed and i tried to talk to him like: "Hey man whats going on?"
BR- "Go away"
Me- Whats wrong I thought you enjoyed the movie and were glad to be apart of the legacy?"
BR- "What legacy did I leave huh????"
Then we argued and I flew away. Man I felt like a douche.

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Old 11-22-2013, 10:32 AM   #765
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 10

sooooooo Superman and Batman….

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Old 11-22-2013, 10:39 AM   #766
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 10

Movie Poster:


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A Christmas Card featuring a Suspicious Sort. Look closely, and you'll note that he was nowhere near the place, nor indeed was he near any place at any time.

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Old 11-22-2013, 10:49 AM   #767
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 10

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Movie Poster:

flass:i never knew! i don't know! i swear to god!

duck knight: afflack!

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Old 11-22-2013, 10:53 AM   #768
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 10

So Batman is in this movie....

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Old 11-22-2013, 10:54 AM   #769
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Movie Poster:



"It's not who I am underneath. But what I do... that QUACKKKKKK."

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Old 11-22-2013, 11:04 AM   #770
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 10

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Buffy is brilliant and largely considered one of the greatest shows ever made. David Simon, the guy who created The Wire, stated that Buffy is actually the single best show ever made.

Firefly was canceled because of network interference, the same is probably true of Dollhouse. I remember the advertisements were just dumb.

Avengers and Agents of Shield are a huge step down from the amazing work Whedon produced before. I worry that it is not a fluke, but that he is declining as a creative talent.
Buffy was fine for what it was, but that stuff was too corny for my taste. I dont think ive ever enjoyed Whedon's work to be honest. Goyer needs a good amount of direction and better individuals to work with, but ill take Goyer over Whedon any day and that includes all his faults.

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Old 11-22-2013, 11:10 AM   #771
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 10

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Buffy was fine for what it was, but that stuff was too corny for my taste. I dont think ive ever enjoyed Whedon's work to be honest. Goyer needs a good amount of direction and better individuals to work with, but ill take Goyer over Whedon any day and that includes all his faults.
I think my biggest issue with Buffy was some of his casting choices. Sarah Michelle Gellar, IMO, is not a good actress at all. I tried watching some of that new show she is in with Robin Williams and I couldn't get through 15 minutes of it. She's just so... dull.

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Old 11-22-2013, 11:14 AM   #772
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I think my biggest issue with Buffy was some of his casting choices. Sarah Michelle Gellar, IMO, is not a good actress at all. I tried watching some of that new show she is in with Robin Williams and I couldn't get through 15 minutes of it. She's just so... dull.
Yeah seriously.

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Old 11-22-2013, 11:15 AM   #773
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I like The Avengers and Cabin in the Woods, but other than that, I don't think Whedon is very good. I could never take Buffy seriously. Firefly was canceled after one season for a reason. Dollhouse was terrible. Agents of SH** has a been a massive disappointment.

Oh, and since we love to harp on Goyer for dialogue, let's not forget about Joss Whedon's "toad" line in X-Men.
And what has Goyer done? The Dark Knight Trilogy was all Nolan not Goyer. Goyer hasn't done anything sucessfull on his own.

Also fact of the day: Whedon was a writer for Toy Story. You enjoy that?

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So you think if had not brought his talents to this 'genre' we'd have gotten Avengers, let alone modern cbms as we know them?

Given the timing of all these films, I'd give him more credit than that. What's more, crafting stories seems to require more "talent" than green lighting films or whatever it is the feige does(not sure tbh).

I'm sure when JLA is all said and done and Goyer fans point to him for being that dude that started it all by way of initial pitch and initial scripting that got the studio behind MOS, the detractors will find another way to short change him. It's happened twice already.
Goyer didn't do anything for modern CBMs. Again Blade & X-Men didn't really do anything. They weren't huge. They were average. They keep the CBM genre alive but didn't bring it back to life. Spider-Man brought it back to life. Hell Spider-Man made more money than Star Wars. Spider-Man was bigger than Star Wars that year.

Goyer's pitch isn't why WB agreed to Man of Steel. It was Nolan who pitched Man of Steel which greenlighted the film.

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Give me a break.

Taking away from Feige?

Yes, he helped make a Marvel cinematic universe, but it's at the cost of the movies being unbelievably mediocre and sterile.

Lots of franchises are in the same universe. There are six resident evil movies. There are nine Alien/Predator/Prometheus movies. And so on and so forth. Do they all get credit?

Captain America, Incredible Hulk, Iron Man 2, and Thor 2 may be in the same universe... but they're not actually any good. Actually, they're awful. So their unity is not a major achievement to me, at all. I'd much prefer all the universes be disjoint if they were each individually interesting, like X-Men or the Nolan Batverse.

The bottom line is that Feige has been able to achieve moderate financial success precisely by making his movies sterile. None of them take risks, none of them have ambition, all of them have very traditional, very conservative narrative structures. That's why they're successful, by being content-free, they don't offend anybody.

For me, Goyer > Feige.
Because Iron Man & Avengers are mediocre. Feige at Marvel Studios has let to make a critically and financial flop. All the Marvel Studios movies have good reviews and made money.

Also there is a difference between resident evil films and Marvel Cinematic Universe. The resident evil films are like the Harry Potter series or Star Wars series. There not as good but in the way they've done them. The MCU has brought different characters to life. Every character really is in a different genre. Thor fits more with Game of Throne, GOTG is sci-fi, Iron Man is more technology, Cap is war/policial.

Not of the MCU films are terrible. None are horrible. Green Lantern is bad. X-Men Origins Wolverine is bad. TIH or Iron man 2 isn't bad on that level.

Also Feige didn't take risks? Hiring a former coke addict who went to prison wasn't a risk? Adding RDJ was a huge risk that paid off. Hell doing Iron Man films was a risk. Iron Man has made more money than any of the X-Men films. Also GOTG isn't a risk? Doing a whole universe isn't a risk? Avengers movie isn't a risk?

Let's look at WB. Is Wonder Woman or Flash or Justice League a risk? If so how are they risks along with a film with a talking raccoon? If they aren't risks, why haven't you done them? Sure Nolan had his Batman series going on but where is Flash? Where is Wonder Woman? We have Superman and going to have Batman with him but that's it.

WB is chicken**** scared to take risks. Marvel Studios isn't. When you have a talent like del Toro saying he would love to do a Justice League Dark film, you shut the **** up and do it.

I'm just tired as a DC fan with getting average to bad films. Man of Steel wasn't truly great. Scope wise, it is more epic than any Marvel Studios film but the story just goes downhill. Again, if writers like Morrison and Waid who written some of the best Superman stories are mixed to having negative feelings about Man of Steel, that says something. Green Lantern was just ****. Complete ****. Love Nolan's Dark Knight Trilogy, Donner's Superman films, Burton's Batman films, and Watchmen but that's all the great DC films we have.

I want better. I am not happy with Thor 2 or IM3 but at the same time at least Marvel is doing something.

WB is just chicken**** scared. I want CBMs to be something more. To want to be great. The only CBMs in the 2000s I can say achieved this is TDKT, Avengers, Iron Man, Spider-Man 2, Watchmen, and the Hellboy films.

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Old 11-22-2013, 11:16 AM   #774
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 10

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I like his vision for each new Marvel movie: "Ant man is a heist movie! Cap is a retro pulp adventure! Avengers is a disaster film! Iron Man 3 is a techno thriller!" It's a cool way of viewing each character's possibilities.
It's a good effort but they just don't commit enough for me to give them enough credit in that dept. When people say TDK does the Crime Thriller thing, I can see it. When people say MOS is more alien contact film than anything else, I get it.
The mcu films seem to be all the same genre/universe thing. Cap really could have driven the former point home(saving private ryan with Rogers or even a film with Indy's sense of adventure) but they played it safe and to me it was just another notch in the ladder of that universe. I have high hopes for winter soldier though. I just think WB is hitting that mindset harder than Mcu is.

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Old 11-22-2013, 11:20 AM   #775
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A bulk of Batman Begins came from Goyer.

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