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Old 11-22-2013, 12:32 PM   #326
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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For all the people who b**ch about Goyer's dialogue, I still fail to see how the dialogue in most of the Marvel movies is SO much better, yet I never seem to hear anyone complain about that. I finally saw Thor 2 last night, and damn near every character not named Thor or Loki had TERRIBLE lines. Also, the story was MUCH weaker than MOS.
It's not. Goyer's failing is that he writes a couple of clunkers each script (all of them do)

In the case of his Batman work, it was particularly glaring, as they tended to be tonally inconsistent with the overall film, or awkwardly placed so as to remove tension when it shouldn't be removed in a scene. See "Nice coat" at the end of Batman's first appearance and The Scarecrow's first pun-filled encounter with Batman in BATMAN BEGINS. But Goyer has grown as a writer over the last few years. MAN OF STEEL is easily his best effort from a dialogue standpoint.

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Old 11-22-2013, 12:34 PM   #327
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Christopher Nolan has a flawless record.
Yeah...no. From a dialogue, character development, and even story standpoint as a writer, his record is anything but flawless.

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Old 11-22-2013, 12:36 PM   #328
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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I didn't think Goyer included any character development.
Psst...he did.

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Old 11-22-2013, 12:49 PM   #329
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

Does anyone else find that any issue they had with the dialogue diminished after a second viewing?

It did for me. Same goes for The Dark Knight Rises. I found the dialogue often seemed jarring at first because it felt tonally different to that of the film. Elaborate speeches and metaphors against a backdrop of heightened realism.

But after multiple viewings I grew to love it. Really love it. Beautifully written in places.

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Old 11-22-2013, 12:56 PM   #330
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Yeah...no. From a dialogue, character development, and even story standpoint as a writer, his record is anything but flawless.
Aren't all of Nolan's movies critical successes? And his big budget films were box office successes as well. Seems like from a measurable standpoint, his record is flawless.

Man Of Steel is the only critical dud he's been associated with thus far.

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Old 11-22-2013, 01:07 PM   #331
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

TDKR was bad, and MOS was even worst.

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Old 11-22-2013, 01:10 PM   #332
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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They destroyed a lot of things. Not just the Kent house. They destroyed half of Smallville.
What location did the aliens head for first and foremost?
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And the layperson would know that they weren't just at the Kent farm trying to find out how to find someone or get somewhere else...how?
How about a global broadcast that they are looking for a specific man?
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And who, pray tell, SAW them at the Kent farm? Again, it's a remote location, and for all we know, Zod's ships have some kind of cloaking tech. Lord knows they travel fast enough that most people wouldn't see them landing.
Yeah I mean 2 giant UFOs flying at street level in broad daylight? Would would see it? No really.

And even when they saw it people would just ignore it right? So perfectly normal.

And as it is the Kents lived in the middle of Antarctica where there wasn't a single human near them for 100 miles. Right?

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Old 11-22-2013, 01:11 PM   #333
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Does anyone else find that any issue they had with the dialogue diminished after a second viewing?
I still have a problem with that "kissing a human" line. It's like the supreme of corniness. Some of Jor-El's dialogue felt off, but I figure that's because he's not really supposed to have a personality.

IMO Supes always has...stiff dialogue. It's just kind of part of him because you can't really talking about saving the world using common idioms and what not.

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I've heard so many people talk about how Superman would kill Lois if they ever had sex, but I've never heard someone make this point before and it's brilliant. If Superman's bodily fluids are so dangerous, then he'd have to use a kryptonite toilet every time he takes a dump.
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Old 11-22-2013, 01:11 PM   #334
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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TDKR was bad, and MOS was even worst.
I like MOS. I don't like The Dark Knight, The Dark Knight Rises and Inception. I like The Prestige, Batman Begins, Memento and Knowing.

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Old 11-22-2013, 01:15 PM   #335
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

I think Nolan is extremely second rate. I find his movies absolutely dumb.

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Old 11-22-2013, 01:16 PM   #336
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

lol...I'm starting to feel like you are trolling for an argument slumcat?

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I've heard so many people talk about how Superman would kill Lois if they ever had sex, but I've never heard someone make this point before and it's brilliant. If Superman's bodily fluids are so dangerous, then he'd have to use a kryptonite toilet every time he takes a dump.
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Old 11-22-2013, 01:18 PM   #337
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

Ya there's no way he actually means that. Otherwise I'll never be able to take his posts seriously ever again, haha.

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Old 11-22-2013, 01:19 PM   #338
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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I think Nolan is extremely second rate. I find his movies absolutely dumb.
Says the guy with a The Man of Steel avatar. Are you trolling?

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Plenty of male-led action films fail, yet the actors' gender is not blamed. Why should it be different for women? Especially since far more male-led action films are made than female-led action films?
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Old 11-22-2013, 01:20 PM   #339
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lol...I'm starting to feel like you are trolling for an argument slumcat?
It must be a sorry and close minded culture where any thought away from the consensus is thought to be trolling.

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Old 11-22-2013, 01:23 PM   #340
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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It must be a sorry and close minded culture where any thought away from the consensus is thought to be trolling.
As someone who get's called that whenever I disagree with anyone I'm not quick to toss it out there, but this seems a little inflammatory considering the thread you're in to begin with.

No worries...I don't care one way or another. I'm not a Nolanite.

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I've heard so many people talk about how Superman would kill Lois if they ever had sex, but I've never heard someone make this point before and it's brilliant. If Superman's bodily fluids are so dangerous, then he'd have to use a kryptonite toilet every time he takes a dump.
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Old 11-22-2013, 01:36 PM   #341
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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I'm not a Nolanite.
That's a mercy anyhow.

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Old 11-22-2013, 02:01 PM   #342
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

Welcome to The Cult of Nolan!

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Old 11-22-2013, 02:02 PM   #343
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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It must be a sorry and close minded culture where any thought away from the consensus is thought to be trolling.
I'm sorry but I'm pretty open minded - I understand people not gelling with Nolan's style in writing or execution, but to say that you objectively find his work to be unintelligent just boggles the mind. Either you don't have much film background/knowledge or you're missing a substantial amount of content in his films. You're more than entitled to your opinion, I just severely disagree, as he's pretty objectively considered to be one of the most intelligent directors in not only our time but in film history. And on a personal level every viewing of each of his films reveals a meaningful layer I'd never seen before. I literally don't know a director who achieves this in every single work he's done the way Nolan has thus far.

But I digress, you're more than entitled to that opinion, and I'd be interested in hearing why you feel this way.

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Old 11-22-2013, 02:16 PM   #344
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I'm sorry but I'm pretty open minded - I understand people not gelling with Nolan's style in writing or execution, but to say that you objectively find his work to be unintelligent just boggles the mind. Either you don't have much film background/knowledge or you're missing a substantial amount of content in his films. You're more than entitled to your opinion, I just severely disagree, as he's pretty objectively considered to be one of the most intelligent directors in not only our time but in film history. And on a personal level every viewing of each of his films reveals a meaningful layer I'd never seen before. I literally don't know a director who achieves this in every single work he's done the way Nolan has thus far.

But I digress, you're more than entitled to that opinion, and I'd be interested in hearing why you feel this way.
I don't think I need to explain myself but I find his imagination barren and his understanding of human behavior adolescent at best. I guess I will stick to Haneke and Tarr and leave the intelligence of Nolan for you and basically everyone else, his kind of cinema only manages to induce eyerolls from me and not any thought or perception.

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Old 11-22-2013, 02:17 PM   #345
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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I'm sorry but I'm pretty open minded - I understand people not gelling with Nolan's style in writing or execution, but to say that you objectively find his work to be unintelligent just boggles the mind. Either you don't have much film background/knowledge or you're missing a substantial amount of content in his films. You're more than entitled to your opinion, I just severely disagree, as he's pretty objectively considered to be one of the most intelligent directors in not only our time but in film history. And on a personal level every viewing of each of his films reveals a meaningful layer I'd never seen before. I literally don't know a director who achieves this in every single work he's done the way Nolan has thus far.

But I digress, you're more than entitled to that opinion, and I'd be interested in hearing why you feel this way.


I think he's a bit over rated by sometimes, and his works haven't been perfect, but to say his work is 'dumb' seems a bit much.

He may not be the most intelligent director out there, but he's not dumb.

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Old 11-22-2013, 02:29 PM   #346
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Does anyone else find that any issue they had with the dialogue diminished after a second viewing?

It did for me. Same goes for The Dark Knight Rises. I found the dialogue often seemed jarring at first because it felt tonally different to that of the film. Elaborate speeches and metaphors against a backdrop of heightened realism.

But after multiple viewings I grew to love it. Really love it. Beautifully written in places.
Yeah, I had the same thing happen with THE DARK KNIGHT RISES. What initially felt like 15 straight minutes of incredibly obvious, jarring exposition to open the film was less of an issue upon repeat viewings. Probably because I was watching performances more than assessing the quality of the script by that point.

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Old 11-22-2013, 02:34 PM   #347
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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What location did the aliens head for first and foremost?
The Kent Farm.

And who saw them do that, exactly?

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How about a global broadcast that they are looking for a specific man?
Who wasn't, by the way "Clark Kent". It was "Kal-El".

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Yeah I mean 2 giant UFOs flying at street level in broad daylight? Would would see it? No really.
Yeah...no. A, they weren't THAT BIG. Certainly not "giant" compared to most airships, planes, etc. B, they weren't flying at street level, making turns through Smallville on the way to get to the Kent farm. They were descending rapidly from the sky, and flying almost straight up and down when they landed/took off. Did you even watch the movie?

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And even when they saw it people would just ignore it right? So perfectly normal.
Stop being ridiculous. I never said anyone would ignore it. But as with most UFO sightings, what they saw (IF they saw it, your assumption that they MUST have is hilarious) may not be the complete picture and context.

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And as it is the Kents lived in the middle of Antarctica where there wasn't a single human near them for 100 miles. Right?
No, but they live far away enough that it is entirely possible that no one saw what actually happened.

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Old 11-22-2013, 02:41 PM   #348
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Yeah, I had the same thing happen with THE DARK KNIGHT RISES. What initially felt like 15 straight minutes of incredibly obvious, jarring exposition to open the film was less of an issue upon repeat viewings. Probably because I was watching performances more than assessing the quality of the script by that point.
Completely agreed.

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"The problem," Pa used to say, "is people. As far back as we go, we've always had problems with sharing. Seems everyone's too busy holding on to what they've got to care how their neighbors are doing."


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Old 11-22-2013, 02:50 PM   #349
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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TDKR was bad, and MOS was even worst.

Glad we've got some true scholars here critiquing Goyer's writing.

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Old 11-22-2013, 02:52 PM   #350
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Glad we've got some true scholars here critiquing Goyer's writing.
You're like a laugh a minute today, Rows...lol

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Originally Posted by Rowsdower! View Post
I've heard so many people talk about how Superman would kill Lois if they ever had sex, but I've never heard someone make this point before and it's brilliant. If Superman's bodily fluids are so dangerous, then he'd have to use a kryptonite toilet every time he takes a dump.
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