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Old 11-22-2013, 01:55 PM   #351
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Glad we've got some true scholars here critiquing Goyer's writing.

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Old 11-22-2013, 01:58 PM   #352
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Glad we've got some true
scholars here critiquing Goyer's writing.
This is the Internet son. it's serious business.

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Old 11-22-2013, 02:00 PM   #353
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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You're like a laugh a minute today, Rows...lol
LOL, thanks.

In all seriousness, I know it's a dick move to poke fun at someone's grammar here, but I think people open themselves up to it if they're ripping on someone else for their writing abilities.

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Old 11-22-2013, 02:02 PM   #354
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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"Obviously we sidestepped it in this movie (Man Of Steel)"

Around the 1:12:00 mark.

http://www.empireonline.com/news/story.asp?NID=37841

Goyer admits he wrote himself into a "corner" for the sequel. They never came up with a plan on how the 'Clark Kent' disguise could make sense in a film grounded in logic.

I wonder how they'll realistically explain it in the sequel or if they'll bother to explain it.
If Goyer thinks his film is grounded in logic, this guy really doesn't understand storytelling.

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Old 11-22-2013, 02:02 PM   #355
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Originally Posted by Rowsdower! View Post
Glad we've got some true scholars here critiquing Goyer's writing.
Sorry, english is not my native laguange! I'm from Argentina :P

Even don't go with worst?

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Old 11-22-2013, 02:06 PM   #356
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Sorry, english is not my native laguange! I'm from Argentina :P

Even don't go with worst?
Ah, sorry about that. I guarantee you that you speak English a lot better than I speak Spanish! Anyway, the phrase you were looking for is "even worse."

In my defense though, I have seen MANY posters here whose native language IS English use horrific grammar.

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Old 11-22-2013, 02:09 PM   #357
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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If Goyer thinks his film is grounded in logic, this guy really doesn't understand storytelling.
He probably meant the "internal logic" that the film establishes (which is a world very similar to our own, minus the superbeings flying around).

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Old 11-22-2013, 02:11 PM   #358
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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If Goyer thinks his film is grounded in logic, this guy really doesn't understand storytelling.
Seriously, so much this. I know it's what they kept saying they were going for, but it just didn't happen.

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"The problem," Pa used to say, "is people. As far back as we go, we've always had problems with sharing. Seems everyone's too busy holding on to what they've got to care how their neighbors are doing."


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Old 11-22-2013, 02:14 PM   #359
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I don't think I need to explain myself but I find his imagination barren and his understanding of human behavior adolescent at best. I guess I will stick to Haneke and Tarr and leave the intelligence of Nolan for you and basically everyone else, his kind of cinema only manages to induce eyerolls from me and not any thought or perception.

Yes, Haneke, Tarkovsky, Kurbrick, Von Trier, Herzog, etc... They are all great directors/storytellers. Nolan is a great director/storyteller in his own way. He excels at exactly what he aims to do. It's all about adjusting expectations accordingly. I don't know about you, but I don't go to a Zack Snyder movie expecting Wong Kar Wai... I adjust my expectations accordingly.

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Old 11-22-2013, 02:21 PM   #360
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If that's your argument, then it's not a good one. From what's shown on screen, there's little reason to think people have the knowledge available to start pinpointing Clark (a person they literally all just met) as Superman.
Huh? What "argument"? Once again, I was talking about the suspension of disbelief required for such a disguise to "work" in a "realistic" setting that Goyer/Snyder established. I made zero conclusive remarks. I simply noted that, being an essential part of the character of Clark Kent, and aided with the suspension of disbelief, the secret identity bit would work fine.

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Old 11-22-2013, 02:23 PM   #361
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He probably meant the "internal logic" that the film establishes (which is a world very similar to our own, minus the superbeings flying around).
Which makes it completely and utterly unlike our world in every possible way.

And even then, Goyer didn't even have solid logic that his characters followed. Zod's entire plan didn't make a lick of sense. "I want to turn Earth into a new Krypton!" Why? When there is another planet in our own solar system he could terraform, with no resistance! And even then, WHY did Zod want to change Earth into a Krypton when his people could literally live like gods on our planet? His group of Kryptonians easily could have overpowered the world, and once they raised the kyrptonian babies, there would have been no way for humans to fight back.

It also didn't make sense for Jor-El to not take his family and rabbit off Krypton with their baby to begin with. He never gave a good reason for why he and his wife stayed to die.

That's part of the problem when you try to apply too much "real-world' logic to these kind of characters. There's just a certain amount of suspension of disbelief required for comic characters, you can try to find logical explanations for them, but Goyer only opened up more questions that he couldn't satisfactorily answer.

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Old 11-22-2013, 02:28 PM   #362
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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The Kent Farm.

And who saw them do that, exactly?



Who wasn't, by the way "Clark Kent". It was "Kal-El".



Yeah...no. A, they weren't THAT BIG. Certainly not "giant" compared to most airships, planes, etc. B, they weren't flying at street level, making turns through Smallville on the way to get to the Kent farm. They were descending rapidly from the sky, and flying almost straight up and down when they landed/took off. Did you even watch the movie?



Stop being ridiculous. I never said anyone would ignore it. But as with most UFO sightings, what they saw (IF they saw it, your assumption that they MUST have is hilarious) may not be the complete picture and context.



No, but they live far away enough that it is entirely possible that no one saw what actually happened.
I'm going to have to disagree with the assertion that the Kryptonians went to and from the Kent Farm without anyone, particularly the military, knowing about it. So they live far away from anyone else, that's fine. There's an entire scene of Swanwick and NorthComm tracking the two drop ships descending from Black Zero. It's pointed out that they enter Kansas airspace. At no point is it suggested that the military loses track of the ships, or that the ships engage a cloaking device of any kind. Therefore, based on what is presented on the screen, I think the only logical assumption is that the military was able to track the ships to the Kent Farm.

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Old 11-22-2013, 02:34 PM   #363
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Ah, sorry about that. I guarantee you that you speak English a lot better than I speak Spanish! Anyway, the phrase you were looking for is "even worse."

In my defense though, I have seen MANY posters here whose native language IS English use horrific grammar.
Noted. No problem man! No need for defense 'cause I wasn't attacking :P

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Old 11-22-2013, 02:35 PM   #364
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

You know, people, I think goyer said the movie was "grounded in reality," not that it follows every principle of the exact world we live in. There are varying degrees of unreal when it comes to movies. This movie made an attempt to have unreal things in a version of a semi-realistic world. Just because some of the dialogue was cheesy, that doesn't mean the realism is gone. It just means goyer can't write dialogue.

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Old 11-22-2013, 02:38 PM   #365
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

Like I said before, if the audience can "realistically" buy a guy flying around and shooting laser beams out of his eyes then if it's done right they'll buy anything else.

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I've heard so many people talk about how Superman would kill Lois if they ever had sex, but I've never heard someone make this point before and it's brilliant. If Superman's bodily fluids are so dangerous, then he'd have to use a kryptonite toilet every time he takes a dump.
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Old 11-22-2013, 02:52 PM   #366
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Which makes it completely and utterly unlike our world in every possible way.

And even then, Goyer didn't even have solid logic that his characters followed. Zod's entire plan didn't make a lick of sense. "I want to turn Earth into a new Krypton!" Why? When there is another planet in our own solar system he could terraform, with no resistance! And even then, WHY did Zod want to change Earth into a Krypton when his people could literally live like gods on our planet? His group of Kryptonians easily could have overpowered the world, and once they raised the kyrptonian babies, there would have been no way for humans to fight back.

It also didn't make sense for Jor-El to not take his family and rabbit off Krypton with their baby to begin with. He never gave a good reason for why he and his wife stayed to die.

That's part of the problem when you try to apply too much "real-world' logic to these kind of characters. There's just a certain amount of suspension of disbelief required for comic characters, you can try to find logical explanations for them, but Goyer only opened up more questions that he couldn't satisfactorily answer.
At first I thought you were onto something when you disagreed with the logic in this universe...then you got into the motivations and...lost me personally.

Anyways goyer clearly meant more internal logic, a film that has none, such as "the hangover"
More to the point, more logic than the previous films. The villains goals in particular. And if you want to compare zod to gene hackman/spacey, I welcome it.

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Old 11-22-2013, 02:53 PM   #367
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Which makes it completely and utterly unlike our world in every possible way.
Correct, but this is where the suspension of disbelief comes in. We understand/accept that these ridiculous things can happen in a world very similar to our own. This goes for most every film of this sort, from the X-Men films, to Spider-Man. Man of Steel didn't make any egregious errors on this front.

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And even then, Goyer didn't even have solid logic that his characters followed. Zod's entire plan didn't make a lick of sense. "I want to turn Earth into a new Krypton!" Why? When there is another planet in our own solar system he could terraform, with no resistance! And even then, WHY did Zod want to change Earth into a Krypton when his people could literally live like gods on our planet? His group of Kryptonians easily could have overpowered the world, and once they raised the kyrptonian babies, there would have been no way for humans to fight back.

It also didn't make sense for Jor-El to not take his family and rabbit off Krypton with their baby to begin with. He never gave a good reason for why he and his wife stayed to die.

These are basic storytelling "issues", which is totally different from the internal logic of a film. For every imaginary hole you can poke in the story, one can concont an imaginary solution (eg. Maybe earth is the only compatible atmosphere, etc...). I didn't feel that MOS was particularly egregious on this front either. There are some things that we must accept for better or worse, for the movie/book/show to work (eg. Why must Rah's al Ghul destroy Gotham in particular? Why must he use fear gas to do it? These things are never elaborated on, but we accept them for the story to work, u'know?).

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That's part of the problem when you try to apply too much "real-world' logic to these kind of characters. There's just a certain amount of suspension of disbelief required for comic characters, you can try to find logical explanations for them, but Goyer only opened up more questions that he couldn't satisfactorily answer.
To be sure, these same issues you've listed above, would still be an issue in a Donner Superman movie. It's not about the overall execution/tone of the film, it's about the storytelling choices within it and the leaps of logic we must sometimes make for it to "work".

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Old 11-22-2013, 02:53 PM   #368
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Which makes it completely and utterly unlike our world in every possible way.

And even then, Goyer didn't even have solid logic that his characters followed. Zod's entire plan didn't make a lick of sense. "I want to turn Earth into a new Krypton!" Why? When there is another planet in our own solar system he could terraform, with no resistance! And even then, WHY did Zod want to change Earth into a Krypton when his people could literally live like gods on our planet? His group of Kryptonians easily could have overpowered the world, and once they raised the kyrptonian babies, there would have been no way for humans to fight back.

It also didn't make sense for Jor-El to not take his family and rabbit off Krypton with their baby to begin with. He never gave a good reason for why he and his wife stayed to die.

That's part of the problem when you try to apply too much "real-world' logic to these kind of characters. There's just a certain amount of suspension of disbelief required for comic characters, you can try to find logical explanations for them, but Goyer only opened up more questions that he couldn't satisfactorily answer.


Yup. God, both of those points were on my list of things I didn't like about the plot, but I haven't had the heart to wade through the forums looking to see if anyone else felt the same about them.

Glad to see I wasn't alone

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"The problem," Pa used to say, "is people. As far back as we go, we've always had problems with sharing. Seems everyone's too busy holding on to what they've got to care how their neighbors are doing."


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Old 11-22-2013, 02:57 PM   #369
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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To be sure, these same issues you've listed above, would still be an issue in a Donner Superman movie. It's not about the overall execution/tone of the film, it's about the storytelling choices within it and the leaps of logic we must sometimes make for it to "work".
I understand what your saying, but I don't see how this film is any more grounded in logic than Avengers or even S:TM.

It seemed to me to be LESS grounded in logic, because the justification behind people's actions in the film often seemed ILLOGICAL to me.

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I think back to my father. As a farmer, he had a natural understanding for the Earth. I remember him telling me this world is capable of providing for all its creatures. Even now, with so many more people, there exists enough food for everyone.

"The problem," Pa used to say, "is people. As far back as we go, we've always had problems with sharing. Seems everyone's too busy holding on to what they've got to care how their neighbors are doing."


*\S/T*
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Old 11-22-2013, 02:59 PM   #370
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To be sure, these same issues you've listed above, would still be an issue in a Donner Superman movie. It's not about the overall execution/tone of the film, it's about the storytelling choices within it and the leaps of logic we must sometimes make for it to "work".
Of course they would that was my point. However, the difference is that the old films didn't try to explain these tropes. They just let them be, and accepted that the audience would accept that this was a comic film and that the audience didn't need an explanation for them.

That's the problem Goyer is running into. He thinks his world is grounded in logic...which is crazy, because it has a flying alien who looks like a man with superpowers. But past that, he thinks he needs to explain how people don't recognize Clark Kent, which is silly!

Because, you know what? You won't be able to explain why people don't recognize him realistically, especially in a world with facial recognition. It won't happen. But he needs to realize that he doesn't NEED to come up with a realistic explanation for why no one recognizes Clark. And to add to it when he tried to give more "logical" explanations in the last film it only opened up more questions he couldn't answer.

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Old 11-22-2013, 02:59 PM   #371
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

Yeah, one problem with the Superman story has always been, "Why didn't Jor-El and Lara just go with Kal?" I believe in the early days (back before mankind achieved space exploration) it was explained that the ship was a prototype and that's why it had to be so small. In more recent times, I believe they explained it as either 1. Jor-El and Lara stayed to try and convince their people to save themselves or 2. that the ship had to be super-small to avoid an intense gravitational pull.

Would either of those explanations helped make the movie better? Perhaps. Jor-El's explanation for why they didn't come along was strange; even if they were as much a "product" of their society as Zod was, they apparently weren't evil so I don't think they would have showed up on earth and suddenly gotten the urge to try and convince all the humans that they should start drilling the planet all to hell until it imploded. But it is what it is.

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Old 11-22-2013, 02:59 PM   #372
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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It also didn't make sense for Jor-El to not take his family and rabbit off Krypton with their baby to begin with. He never gave a good reason for why he and his wife stayed to die.
Excluding he and Lara was a symbolic gesture - that and the fact that Jor-El was dead. He clearly tells Kal in the "fortress" that they are representatives of the old way of thinking, of how Krypton went astray, and he felt their culture needed a fresh start.

Zod, on the other hand, wanted things as they were. As for his plan, I'd much rather terraform a planet that's already inhabitable as opposed to starting from a wasteland -- it seems like it would be the most efficient way of going about it. Plus, he needs the codex, which is on Earth, so he might as well start there since he's in the neighborhood.

Now, why didn't he take humans as slaves and live as gods? He was responsible for maintaining Krypton and its culture. Gaining superpowers and enslaving another race would be a New Krypton and not the Krypton he was made to protect.

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Old 11-22-2013, 03:01 PM   #373
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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At first I thought you were onto something when you disagreed with the logic in this universe...then you got into the motivations and...lost me personally.

Anyways goyer clearly meant more internal logic, a film that has none, such as "the hangover"
More to the point, more logic than the previous films. The villains goals in particular. And if you want to compare zod to gene hackman/spacey, I welcome it.
You should have put a red face behind that...LOL

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I've heard so many people talk about how Superman would kill Lois if they ever had sex, but I've never heard someone make this point before and it's brilliant. If Superman's bodily fluids are so dangerous, then he'd have to use a kryptonite toilet every time he takes a dump.
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Old 11-22-2013, 03:03 PM   #374
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But past that, he thinks he needs to explain how people don't recognize Clark Kent, which is silly!
When did he say this?

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Old 11-22-2013, 03:04 PM   #375
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Excluding he and Lara was a symbolic gesture - that and the fact that Jor-El was dead. He clearly tells Kal in the "fortress" that they are representatives of the old way of thinking, of how Krypton went astray, and he felt their culture needed a fresh start.

Zod, on the other hand, wanted things as they were. As for his plan, I'd much rather terraform a planet that's already inhabitable as opposed to starting from a wasteland -- it seems like it would be the most efficient way of going about it. Plus, he needs the codex, which is on Earth, so he might as well start there since he's in the neighborhood.

Now, why didn't he take humans as slaves and live as gods? He was responsible for maintaining Krypton and its culture. Gaining superpowers and enslaving another race would be a New Krypton and not the Krypton he was made to protect.
And I don't buy either of those explanations. First, no way in heck would I buy that Jor-El would have let his son go if he couldn't go with him. Jor-El recognized the faults in the Kryptonian way of thinking, and the dude wanted to save his son, no reason he couldn't have gone with him.

And the second, I DEFINITELY don't buy. First, logically it made much more sense just to hop to mars and rebuild Krypton with no interference. If his true goal was to rebuild Krypton, he would do it somewhere were there was a minimal chance of his plan being thwarted. And I also don't buy that Zod was above taking slaves. Zod rebelled against his Kryptonian culture, he obviously wasn't above breaking conventions.

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my veiws on Raimi's Spider-man
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
here
just scoll down


X-men Short film:

http://vimeo.com/41530049
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