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Old 11-25-2013, 06:46 PM   #651
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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I'm in two minds about Goyer. The guy seems to be a pretty solid idea man, and he helped the Nolan Bat films be what they are, but at the same time he definitely ends up with some shoddy motivations for his characters or just some poorly explained or presented material.
That's kind of vague, but to be honest, I find that a lot of the time when people say this, they missed specific things in the film that would do away with a lot of their issues with these things.

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Old 11-25-2013, 07:13 PM   #652
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Originally Posted by charl_huntress View Post
le sigh...this is what this is all boiling down too. You don't think the guy is talented. Okay I get that. Yet, he did a pretty good job on this movie and I'll wait for the results of the next before I make any judgment calls. If he says he wrote himself in a corner then I'm sure someone will help him out. It's not that big of a deal and I think you're putting too much on it.
I don't think Goyer is all, "OMG, I have no idea how to handle this!". He's more or less stated that they can't continue with Superman fooling every single person. Lois and Martha already know his identity. It's likely that there are other who will know or suspect, and keep his secret.

So yes, there is a narrative corner he's written himself into, but I don't think he was saying that it can't be worked around, just that they are going to have to change some of Superman's story up...and I can't find a complaint with that.

The disguise has always been the dumbest aspect of the Superman mythos. It's time to freshen it up, so to speak, and allow some of the other characters a chance to grow and be less stagnant than they have in the past.

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Old 11-25-2013, 07:56 PM   #653
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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I don't think Goyer is all, "OMG, I have no idea how to handle this!". He's more or less stated that they can't continue with Superman fooling every single person. Lois and Martha already know his identity. It's likely that there are other who will know or suspect, and keep his secret.

So yes, there is a narrative corner he's written himself into, but I don't think he was saying that it can't be worked around, just that they are going to have to change some of Superman's story up...and I can't find a complaint with that.

The disguise has always been the dumbest aspect of the Superman mythos. It's time to freshen it up, so to speak, and allow some of the other characters a chance to grow and be less stagnant than they have in the past.
Well...I think it's pretty obvious there are going to keep the disguise, but there could be some changes to the traditional way it's been shown. I could see Perry figuring it out and helping to keep it secret. It seems that a lot of folks in SV already know or have their suspicious. So it is possible. I just don't see it as being a huge problem if they decide to go the traditional route. Whatever corner Goyer and Co. are in is not a problem that can't be solved. Yet if you feel like Goyer sucks then I guess it's a problem for you.

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I've heard so many people talk about how Superman would kill Lois if they ever had sex, but I've never heard someone make this point before and it's brilliant. If Superman's bodily fluids are so dangerous, then he'd have to use a kryptonite toilet every time he takes a dump.
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Old 11-25-2013, 11:33 PM   #654
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Now if the story is contrived so that no one ever captures Superman's image clearly, as they have in every single Superman adaptation to date
Every adaptation except Smallville. Smallville gave us a Superman for 3 seasons (or more if you count his pre-Blur adventures) that evaded being caught clearly on camera. It might not be the Superman story that you want to see, but it can be done. Superman doesn't HAVE to accept the key to the city from the mayor. He doesn't have to appear on the news and pose for photo ops. All he DOES have to do is save people and fight bad guys. And Smallville had him doing both of those things.

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What I'm assuming is that Superman will ever save someone in public. That leads to pictures because everyone has a smartphone.
And Superman can destroy said phone instantly should anyone snap a good shot of him. Shouldn't be too much of a problem for him though, he's not exactly going to be sitting around waiting for his fanboys to pull out their cameras before flying away.

But we saw Superman zipping around a Metropolis in peril already. We saw no one taking his picture through the chaos he was trying to contain, and if they had tried, it probably would have turned out to have been a red-blue-blur.

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Old 11-26-2013, 01:57 AM   #655
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Originally Posted by charl_huntress View Post
Right! And then Superman reveals himself...ipso facto he's no longer hiding anymore. He has revealed himself as Superman. He was hiding...and now he's not any longer. I see what you are saying, but once he's come out of the closet so to speak then the jig is up. People aren't wondering who he is anymore. He just came out as Superman. The question then could be how was he able to hide? But that's where LL comes in to help hide the secret and lay the groundwork for his secret identity. This seems really simple to me.

Well as long as there's an internal logic within the film itself, the disguise can be done. It will just be challenging to pull off.


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le sigh...this is what this is all boiling down too. You don't think the guy is talented. Okay I get that. Yet, he did a pretty good job on this movie and I'll wait for the results of the next before I make any judgment calls. If he says he wrote himself in a corner then I'm sure someone will help him out. It's not that big of a deal and I think you're putting too much on it.
MoS falls into his list of critical failures unfortunately. His other screenplays that weren't directed by Nolan include;
- The Unborn
- Jumper
- Ghost Rider: Spirit Of Vengeance
- Blade Trinity
etc

His track record isn't very inspiring. Same can be said for Snyder as a writer.

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Old 11-26-2013, 05:48 AM   #656
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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MoS falls into his list of critical failures unfortunately. His other screenplays that weren't directed by Nolan include;
- The Unborn
- Jumper
- Ghost Rider: Spirit Of Vengeance
- Blade Trinity
etc

His track record isn't very inspiring. Same can be said for Snyder as a writer.
That's your personal opinion and you are entitled to it.


I think Goyer was able to successfully include certain themes and ideas in MOS.

* Nature vs Nurture. (choice to forge his own future.)

* Leap of faith. (Superman learning to put his faith in humanity even before they respond to him favorably.)

* Alienation.(people of Earth tend to be afraid of something they can't understand / control.)

* Pre-planned destiny vs element of choice. (Kryptonian society where each individual is born for a certain task )

* Exploitation of natural resources.(Mining Krypton core for power)

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Old 11-26-2013, 07:50 AM   #657
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Originally Posted by Bruce_Begins View Post
That's your personal opinion and you are entitled to it.


I think Goyer was able to successfully include certain themes and ideas in MOS.

* Nature vs Nurture. (choice to forge his own future.)

* Leap of faith. (Superman learning to put his faith in humanity even before they respond to him favorably.)

* Alienation.(people of Earth tend to be afraid of something they can't understand / control.)

* Pre-planned destiny vs element of choice. (Kryptonian society where each individual is born for a certain task )

* Exploitation of natural resources.(Mining Krypton core for power)

It's not my personal opinion. MoS being critically rotten is a fact: http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/superman_man_of_steel/


My personal opinion is that I disagree with your previous points above. While Goyer's script introduced those ideas, it did nothing with them. It also introduced most of them in a really jumbled and disorganized way. Especially regarding the themes and ideas that were introduced during the Krypton scenes. It was rushed and came across more as exposition.

I'm really looking forward to Nostalgia Critic's Big Review of MoS today. It should be online this evening. It will probably address these issues.

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Old 11-26-2013, 08:21 AM   #658
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

Goyer doesn't have the greatest track record as a screenwriter but he didn't write the screenplay to Ghost Rider: SOV. He supervised Scott Gimple and Seth Hoffman. But then he never met the directors or had anything to do with the production.

He wrote the first draft of Jumper but left. His draft was rewritten. The first act mirrors his script.

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Old 11-26-2013, 08:23 AM   #659
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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It's not my personal opinion. MoS being critically rotten is a fact: http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/superman_man_of_steel/
It's easy to understand what you are getting at but, to suggest that such a thing is a fact and then pointing to that of all sites isn't the same thing.

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I'm really looking forward to Nostalgia Critic's Big Review of MoS today. It should be online this evening. It will probably address these issues.
Another opinion. Never understood why people put these other peoples opinion on these pedestals. It would be like putting one of your fellow posters opinion out there for the rest of us. I'd look more forward to someone of influence such as 'Nolan' for example, and his opinion.
just saying.

Lastly, of Goyers failed movies, you haven't really pointed out any of his failed scripts but rather his failed films. This is to say a script is only as good as it's director. Taking a second look at this list of films that have been critically 'rotten', the directors, rather the direction itself should be called into question. I'd even go as far as to add the critical perception of said directors(but that would be controversial).

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Old 11-26-2013, 08:28 AM   #660
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

Well, it was indeed Snyder the one who put the giant bodycount in the film, though the script wasn't very good, ideas that weren't well executed and fell flat.

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Old 11-26-2013, 08:32 AM   #661
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

Well critically panned is a fact. The results are there. It's rotten, critically. Can't argue with it's RT score.

If the script is only as good as its director, as you suggest, we're still headed for mediocre waters with Zack Snyder. His track record isn't very inspiring either.

I'm really hoping these guys completely surprise everyone... somehow...divine intervention, but meh.

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Another opinion. Never understood why people put these other peoples opinion on these pedestals. It would be like putting one of your fellow posters opinion out there for the rest of us. I'd look more forward to someone of influence such as 'Nolan' for example, and his opinion.
just saying.
Well the Nostalgia Critic isn't a real critic like the ones on RT. He's just good fun.

Redlettermedia is another big one that the internet tends to love (Mr. Plinkett's Reviews). Their Star Wars reviews are hilarious. They hated MoS, so I won't be surprised if they do a Plinkett Review for it next.

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Old 11-26-2013, 08:40 AM   #662
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

In my opinion ...

Most of the critics were expecting a lighter toned movie in line with Donner - Superman movies, they let their own expectations cloud their judgements... instead of reviewing a movie solely based of it's merits (or lack thereof), they voted it as rotten.... as the movie was not what they wanted it to be.

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Old 11-26-2013, 08:52 AM   #663
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In my opinion ...

Most of the critics were expecting a lighter toned movie in line with Donner - Superman movies, they let their own expectations cloud their judgements... instead of reviewing a movie solely based of it's merits (or lack thereof), they voted it as rotten.... as the movie was not what they wanted it to be.

I think most were expecting something on the level of the Christopher Nolan films. MoS was heavily marketed with Nolan's name attached and the Dark Knight trilogy mentioned.

I think the critics went in with high expectations because of that.

I don't think the critics particularly care for Snyder as a director either.

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Old 11-26-2013, 08:53 AM   #664
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Originally Posted by The Valeyard View Post
Well as long as there's an internal logic within the film itself, the disguise can be done. It will just be challenging to pull off.
Not that challenging to pull off as I keep saying.


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MoS falls into his list of critical failures unfortunately. His other screenplays that weren't directed by Nolan include;
- The Unborn
- Jumper
- Ghost Rider: Spirit Of Vengeance
- Blade Trinity
etc

His track record isn't very inspiring. Same can be said for Snyder as a writer.
This is your personal opinion. All CBMs generally get bad reviews. They're popcorn films, which most critics don't like.

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I've heard so many people talk about how Superman would kill Lois if they ever had sex, but I've never heard someone make this point before and it's brilliant. If Superman's bodily fluids are so dangerous, then he'd have to use a kryptonite toilet every time he takes a dump.
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Old 11-26-2013, 08:56 AM   #665
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Well critically panned is a fact. The results are there. It's rotten, critically. Can't argue with it's RT score.

If the script is only as good as its director, as you suggest, we're still headed for mediocre waters with Zack Snyder. His track record isn't very inspiring either.

I'm really hoping these guys completely surprise everyone... somehow...divine intervention, but meh.



Well the Nostalgia Critic isn't a real critic like the ones on RT. He's just good fun.

Redlettermedia is another big one that the internet tends to love (Mr. Plinkett's Reviews). Their Star Wars reviews are hilarious. They hated MoS, so I won't be surprised if they do a Plinkett Review for it next.
Do you let these guys tell you when you should take a piss too? I don't really care for reviews or reviewers because I have a damn mind of my own and know it very well.

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In my opinion ...

Most of the critics were expecting a lighter toned movie in line with Donner - Superman movies, they let their own expectations cloud their judgements... instead of reviewing a movie solely based of it's merits (or lack thereof), they voted it as rotten.... as the movie was not what they wanted it to be.
This

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I've heard so many people talk about how Superman would kill Lois if they ever had sex, but I've never heard someone make this point before and it's brilliant. If Superman's bodily fluids are so dangerous, then he'd have to use a kryptonite toilet every time he takes a dump.
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Old 11-26-2013, 08:58 AM   #666
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Well critically panned is a fact. The results are there. It's rotten, critically. Can't argue with it's RT score.
Don't make me do this...

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Old 11-26-2013, 09:02 AM   #667
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Not that challenging to pull off as I keep saying.
Challenging because while this creative team had decent ideas, the execution of them in MoS was quite half-assed.

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Do you let these guys tell you when you should take a piss too? I don't really care for reviews or reviewers because I have a damn mind of my own and know it very well.
Whether you agree with reviews or not is another story, but nothing can change the fact that the critical reviews exist and are counted. That was my point. Critical success or failure isn't an opinion. It's measurable.

Audience and fan reaction is another story.


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Originally Posted by charl_huntress View Post
This is your personal opinion. All CBMs generally get bad reviews. They're popcorn films, which most critics don't like.
You're wrong.

Avengers 92%

The Dark Knight 94%

Iron Man 93%

X-Men 2 87%

Spider-Man 2 94%


And the list goes on.

It's really the bad CBMs that get a rotten score. I actually can't find a single genuinely good CBM that was unfairly given a rotten score. All the great CBMs are recognized by critics.

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Old 11-26-2013, 09:03 AM   #668
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Well the Nostalgia Critic isn't a real critic like the ones on RT. He's just good fun.

Redlettermedia is another big one that the internet tends to love (Mr. Plinkett's Reviews). Their Star Wars reviews are hilarious. They hated MoS, so I won't be surprised if they do a Plinkett Review for it next.
Lol. I'm not even the biggest Goyer defender, and this isn't really specific to MOS, but dude...maybe you should read some of the fantastic, objective stuff these "professionals" like to call a review. Most reviews these days seem to be more for laughs than to be taken seriously. People get paid to complain and so they do it...with gusto.

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Old 11-26-2013, 09:05 AM   #669
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Challenging because while this creative team had decent ideas, the execution of them in MoS was quite half-assed.
Okay, you should create the "I hated MOS" thread because that's all you keep getting back to. You didn't like the execution, the writing, blah, blah, blah. Don't watch the sequel and don't waste your time trying to convince folks who did like the movie they are wrong.

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You're wrong.

Avengers 92%

The Dark Knight 94%

Iron Man 93%

X-Men 2 87%

Spider-Man 2 94%


And the list goes on.

It's really the bad CBMs that get a rotten score. I actually can't find a single genuinely good CBM that was unfairly given a rotten score. All the great CBMs are recognized by critics.
And I could produce a list of EVERY CBM ever made and the results would skew in my favor. I ask again...do you let reviews tell you when to take a piss? Do you have a mind of your own?

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Whether you agree with reviews or not is another story, but nothing can change the fact that the critical reviews exist and are counted. That was my point. Critical success or failure isn't an opinion. It's measurable.
Yes, they exist and are counted by people who think they matter. People like you.

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I've heard so many people talk about how Superman would kill Lois if they ever had sex, but I've never heard someone make this point before and it's brilliant. If Superman's bodily fluids are so dangerous, then he'd have to use a kryptonite toilet every time he takes a dump.

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Old 11-26-2013, 09:06 AM   #670
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

I like the Nostalgia Critic at times, but he can also be a bit of a pretentious jackass. I'm sure he hated Man of Steel, and that's fine, whatever. He also made fun of Christian Bale's Batman, and I didn't agree with him then, either.

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Old 11-26-2013, 09:11 AM   #671
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Challenging because while this creative team had decent ideas, the execution of them in MoS was quite half-assed.



Whether you agree with reviews or not is another story, but nothing can change the fact that the critical reviews exist and are counted. That was my point. Critical success or failure isn't an opinion. It's measurable.

Audience and fan reaction is another story.




You're wrong.

Avengers 92%

The Dark Knight 94%

Iron Man 93%

X-Men 2 87%

Spider-Man 2 94%


And the list goes on.

It's really the bad CBMs that get a rotten score. I actually can't find a single genuinely good CBM that was unfairly given a rotten score. All the great CBMs are recognized by critics.
That is not "measurable."

RT is the opinion of 270 or so people. 270 out of 7 billion people. Those opinions don't make up a definitive "answer" to this or any other movie. Bad movies are in the eye of the beholder. Many, many biases and individual experiences go into forming these opinions. You can't count them as fact. That's just silly. What makes these people any less full of crap than anyone else?

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Old 11-26-2013, 09:19 AM   #672
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Well critically panned is a fact. The results are there. It's rotten, critically. Can't argue with it's RT score.
Actually you can, but that's beside the point. One think you need to sort out is what you mean by the word pan. Last time I checked 100% or something close to it means "all"(that is all that are a part of that website) 'pan' the film. 50% would be half and a number greater than 50 would mean it was split.
Critically planned would be indicative of an M Night situation, whereas films like the first blade...

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If the script is only as good as its director, as you suggest, we're still headed for mediocre waters with Zack Snyder. His track record isn't very inspiring either.
Another discussion, however I'm glade we've acknowledged the reality and moved o....

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I'm really hoping these guys completely surprise everyone... somehow...divine intervention, but meh.
If they knock it out of the park or fail completely they will only end up surprising half of everybody as far as critics are concerned seeing as it was split. It's a different discussion with general audiences(the people I assume you are referring to here).

Quote:
Redlettermedia is another big one that the internet tends to love (Mr. Plinkett's Reviews). Their Star Wars reviews are hilarious. They hated MoS, so I won't be surprised if they do a Plinkett Review for it next.
If you listen to RLM's IM3 'review' then his MOS review in succession, you'll literally see their objective reasoning get up pack it's bags and walk out the door. Starting when they get into the definitions of violent and explosions.

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Old 11-26-2013, 09:19 AM   #673
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Okay, you should create the "I hated MOS" thread because that's all you keep getting back to. You didn't like the execution, the writing, blah, blah, blah. Don't watch the sequel and don't waste your time trying to convince folks who did like the movie they are wrong.
Calm yourself. I can watch whatever I want.


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And I could produce a list of EVERY CBM ever made and the results would skew in my favor. I ask again...do you let reviews tell you when to take a piss? Do you have a mind of your own?
That's because the vast majority of CBMs are in fact bad.


I challenge you to list a 'rotten' CBM that did not deserve it's score, with the exception of your beloved MoS.


Good CBMs are well praised by the critics, as listed above, and bad ones are recognized as bad.


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I ask again...do you let reviews tell you when to take a piss? Do you have a mind of your own?
I do have a mind of my own. I'm just in agreement with the professional criticisms regarding MoS.

I'd laugh if you're trying to argue that MoS was too intelligent a film for the professional critics, a chunk of the audience and myself to supposedly grasp.



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That is not "measurable."

RT is the opinion of 270 or so people. 270 out of 7 billion people. Those opinions don't make up a definitive "answer" to this or any other movie. Bad movies are in the eye of the beholder. Many, many biases and individual experiences go into forming these opinions. You can't count them as fact. That's just silly. What makes these people any less full of crap than anyone else?
It's measurable with regards to critical success or failure. Read my above post again.

I'm not referring to how the film was perceived overall, but just in regards to it's critical reception. Critical reception is measurable.

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Old 11-26-2013, 09:20 AM   #674
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Originally Posted by Rowsdower! View Post
I like the Nostalgia Critic at times, but he can also be a bit of a pretentious jackass. I'm sure he hated Man of Steel, and that's fine, whatever. He also made fun of Christian Bale's Batman, and I didn't agree with him then, either.
With a name like Nostalgia what not, I can imagine what his review will be.
maybe I should be more objective and less prejudicial though

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Old 11-26-2013, 09:21 AM   #675
Krumm
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Originally Posted by The Valeyard View Post
Well critically panned is a fact. The results are there. It's rotten, critically. Can't argue with it's RT score.
RT is a flawed system:

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Stephen Wang, Co-founder, ex-CTO, ex-Head Tomato, and all-around tomato lover

It varies... Many film critics are already registered on Rotten Tomatoes and will insert a fresh or rotten rating (along with their review quotation) themselves. Some film critics (or their webmasters) have set up a feed with Rotten Tomatoes' scripts which includes ratings information in the data feed. Finally, fresh/rotten ratings for a minority of the reviews included on the Tomatometer are from Rotten Tomatoes editors who will either derive a fresh/rotten rating from the review's already-included rating system or by trying to discern from the review whether the critic is recommending the film is worthwhile for filmgoers to go see. On some rare occasions, if the editor is uncertain about a particular review being fresh or rotten, the editor will contact the film critic and ask what they wish the rating to be. In all cases, film critics have direct access to the Rotten Tomatoes staff if they feel a rating has been interpreted incorrectly and want their rating changed.

In addition -- please note that for individual reviews in the Tomatometer, Rotten Tomatoes uses a binary system (fresh or rotten), not the "out of 100" rating referred to in the question. The "out of 100" Tomatometer rating is automatically calculated by the percentage of fresh reviews divided by the total number reviews from a discrete list of pre-approved Tomatometer critics or publications.
What that is basically saying is that after giving the film critical thought and analysis and placing it on a wide rating scale of 1-10, the critic simply undercuts all of their work and says the movie is good or bad, black or white.

The real key to RT is to look at the critic score which is out of 10. Let's look at the MOS RT score compared to it's rating out of 10.

Man of Steel = 56% Rotten and 6.2/10

Now, let's compare that to film's with similar ratings.

World War Z = 67% Fresh and 6.2/10
Thor: TDW = 65% Fresh and 6.2/10
Ender's Game = 61% Fresh and 6.1/10

The term "rotten" means very little because it is completely arbitrary. I feel we'd all be better served if the score came from the score out of 10. Why not make MOS, WWZ, and Thor: TDW a 62% on the Tomatometer? Surprising, Ender's Game achieves that balance.

So not only was MOS not critically panned, because that would require a majority of critics not liking it, they idea that it is "rotten" is an illusion.


Last edited by Krumm; 11-26-2013 at 09:49 AM.
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