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Old 11-28-2013, 01:58 PM   #851
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

Actually Bruce getting back to Gotham made sense to me because we were shown in Begins that he has disguised himself, snuck on ships, walked on ice and is a ninja. We also saw people of high importance sneak into Gotham in trucks. To me it was always common sense. There's even concept art that shows Bruce walking the ice into Gotham. He "has a way to get in and out of the city" he says something like this to Selina. So it's all there. He's a master and he's also rich so he has connections. The only problem was that i understand how people wanted to see him actually get in.

That was a running-time problem. I would have loved to have seen Bruce take out some people or at least a shot of walking the ice again like in Begins, but this time that ice is Gotham. Would have made for a damn good parallel shot.

But the end of MOS? Perfect ending, but it doesnt make any sense seeing the Daily Planet stuff and the high spirits of everyone as if nothing happened. That's bad writing from Goyer even though the individual scene is executed well by both Snyder and Zimmer.

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Old 11-28-2013, 02:03 PM   #852
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Not always. Look at TDKR, Nolan/Goyer didn't explain how Bruce was able to enter Gotham despite Bane's lockdown, and that was still called into attention.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
People still are not sure how he could get into Gotham ? He is not any ordinary man, even GCPD poster says that Batman is expert in infiltration and evasion.

For a highly trained man like him it would not be an insurmountable problem.


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Old 11-28-2013, 02:05 PM   #853
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Actually Bruce getting back to Gotham made sense to me because we were shown in Begins that he has disguised himself, snuck on ships, walked on ice and is a ninja. We also saw people of high importance sneak into Gotham in trucks. To me it was always common sense. There's even concept art that shows Bruce walking the ice into Gotham. He "has a way to get in and out of the city" he says something like this to Selina. So it's all there. He's a master and he's also rich so he has connections. The only problem was that i understand how people wanted to see him actually get in.

That was a running-time problem. I would have loved to have seen Bruce take out some people or at least a shot of walking the ice again like in Begins, but this time that ice is Gotham. Would have made for a damn good parallel shot.

But the end of MOS? Perfect ending, but it doesnt make any sense seeing the Daily Planet stuff and the high spirits of everyone as if nothing happened. That's bad writing from Goyer even though the individual scene is executed well by both Snyder and Zimmer.
Then, he had the knowledge of tunnels that were used in past to get in and out of Gotham.

Those tunnels lead right to the Batcave.

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Old 11-28-2013, 02:11 PM   #854
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Actually Bruce getting back to Gotham made sense to me because we were shown in Begins that he has disguised himself, snuck on ships, walked on ice and is a ninja. We also saw people of high importance sneak into Gotham in trucks. To me it was always common sense. There's even concept art that shows Bruce walking the ice into Gotham. He "has a way to get in and out of the city" he says something like this to Selina. So it's all there. He's a master and he's also rich so he has connections. The only problem was that i understand how people wanted to see him actually get in.
I never said he wasn't capable of sneaking back into Gotham. What I was saying (or trying to say) was how it was presented in the film didn't make sense to me. Bruce was stranded in the middle of nowhere with no cash, no phone, and no idea where he was or where he would have to go to find a razor blade, let alone a plane or a ship. It requires a huge amount of suspension of disbelief to accept that he was able to get back to Gotham several hours before the bomb went off and find a way to sneak past security. The fact that he apparently had no trouble walking across an ocean of thin ice and had enough time to shave, put on a suit, find Selina, and use gasoline to paint a giant bat on the side of a bridge - all without being caught - just makes the situation even more unbelievable.


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But the end of MOS? Perfect ending, but it doesnt make any sense seeing the Daily Planet stuff and the high spirits of everyone as if nothing happened. That's bad writing from Goyer even though the individual scene is executed well by both Snyder and Zimmer.
I thought it was cheesy. It works a lot better out of context.

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Old 11-28-2013, 02:15 PM   #855
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Bottom line: based on how MOS was constructed, there’s a whole mess of people who either know Supes’ Big Secret directly or who should be able to figure it out fairly easily. And presumably, this is the corner that Goyer admits to having painted himself into.

He doesn’t say it was a “mistake,” though; he says it was a deliberate and calculated decision. Time will tell if it ends up being - in hindsight - a major problem.
These are good points. He did leave the door open for a lot of people to know and Synder said he liked the idea of it being an "open" secret in Smallville. I don't think they fully thought that out in terms of keeping it a secret for the long term. It was obviously deliberate and calculated, but I don't think it was completely thought out, which is where I think this whole painted in the corner stuff comes from. Saying that, I don't think it's such a problem that it cant be solved with a few lines of dialogue and one or two well crafted scenes, but it is something that will need to be fixed. How or if the they resolve it is the question.

Me personally, I don't want the CK persona to disappear. I like that part of the mythos as I do think it's what helps ground the character and make him relatable. He cannot be Superman all the time. It's actually kind of boring when he is just that. So I hope they resolve things by fixing this to make sure he can keep Clark Kent as his secret identity.

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I've heard so many people talk about how Superman would kill Lois if they ever had sex, but I've never heard someone make this point before and it's brilliant. If Superman's bodily fluids are so dangerous, then he'd have to use a kryptonite toilet every time he takes a dump.
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Old 11-28-2013, 02:48 PM   #856
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I never said he wasn't capable of sneaking back into Gotham. What I was saying (or trying to say) was how it was presented in the film didn't make sense to me. Bruce was stranded in the middle of nowhere with no cash, no phone, and no idea where he was or where he would have to go to find a razor blade, let alone a plane or a ship. It requires a huge amount of suspension of disbelief to accept that he was able to get back to Gotham several hours before the bomb went off and find a way to sneak past security. The fact that he apparently had no trouble walking across an ocean of thin ice and had enough time to shave, put on a suit, find Selina, and use gasoline to paint a giant bat on the side of a bridge - all without being caught - just makes the situation even more unbelievable.




I thought it was cheesy. It works a lot better out of context.
For me, he didn't arrive several hours prior. It seems like he's been there for a couple of days. In preperation mode.

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Old 11-28-2013, 03:25 PM   #857
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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They're usually journalists who have watched a lot of films to know what they're talking about, they usually have some kind of degree too.
*sigh*

Many people have watched a lot of films and have degrees. Doesn't make their opinion on a film any more "right." But whatever. I've argued enough about this.


About the disguise....

The only thing I worry about it them taking away the Clark persona or wasting large amounts of screen time justifying it. I hope they give some thought to it and some explanation, then move on and show us the fascinating dichotomy of a man who has cosmic adventures and then works as a reporter.

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Old 11-28-2013, 03:29 PM   #858
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For me, he didn't arrive several hours prior. It seems like he's been there for a couple of days. In preperation mode.
If that's true, the film did a very poor job of conveying that.

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The only thing I worry about it them taking away the Clark persona or wasting large amounts of screen time justifying it. I hope they give some thought to it and some explanation, then move on and show us the fascinating dichotomy of a man who has cosmic adventures and then works as a reporter.
Indeed. It would only take like five minutes.

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Old 11-28-2013, 03:45 PM   #859
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*sigh*

Many people have watched a lot of films and have degrees. Doesn't make their opinion on a film any more "right." But whatever. I've argued enough about this.


About the disguise....

The only thing I worry about it them taking away the Clark persona or wasting large amounts of screen time justifying it. I hope they give some thought to it and some explanation, then move on and show us the fascinating dichotomy of a man who has cosmic adventures and then works as a reporter.
Degrees related to cinema, or Journalism, you know, the stuff that proves you have some experience, and are not just a random blogger or youtuber

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Old 11-28-2013, 03:48 PM   #860
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Degrees related to cinema, or Journalism, you know, the stuff that proves you have some experience, and are not just a random blogger or youtuber
So that makes it an educated opinion....but it's still an opinion.

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I've heard so many people talk about how Superman would kill Lois if they ever had sex, but I've never heard someone make this point before and it's brilliant. If Superman's bodily fluids are so dangerous, then he'd have to use a kryptonite toilet every time he takes a dump.
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Old 11-28-2013, 03:52 PM   #861
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Indeed. It would only take like five minutes.
Yep. Sometimes Goyer overdoes it. Hope he just keeps is simple this time.

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Degrees related to cinema, or Journalism, you know, the stuff that proves you have some experience, and are not just a random blogger or youtuber
Degrees tell people the right way to have an opinion? All right then. If you want to believe some stranger can tell you whether or not a movie will be enjoyable to you, that's your business.


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Old 11-28-2013, 04:17 PM   #862
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Alright... I registered mostly so I could finally participate in the Bat-Suit thread after many months of lurking, but what finally got me to pull the trigger was Slumcat's dead-on assessment of the tone of the current DC movies. TDKR had a little fun with itself in the very early part of the film, and TDK was memorable for all the obvious reasons, but Nolan doesn't know how to portray actual emotion or anything anywhere near human realism.

As a director, he is like Guy Pierce's character from Memento (still his best movie imo)... he practically has to tattoo "try to depict that human beings are actually alive" on his chest backwards to remind himself to inject even a modicum of humanity into his films. (Personally, I think he forgets to inject actual intelligence or creativity into his work, but that's another topic)...

The worst thing Nolan did, not only for the DC Universe but for all post TDK films is to legalize the kind of absolutely hollow, rank-amateur dialogue that defines EVERY project that David S. Goyer has ever been involved with. Even Orci & Kurtzman do human dialogue better... and I think their films hold together with a little more heart than Goyer's. The fact that Nolan relied so heavily on this hack's writing either goes to show that Nolan himself is a poser, or at best, might be to blame for why Nolan's attempts at the DC Universe were so unbelievably sterile, cold, and mindlessly self aggrandizing.

...Also, I don't understand why people are batting an eyelash over Supes killing Zod. This has been telegraphed to the DC fanbase since Batman Begins... one of the main premises of Nolan's half-baked trilogy (which admittedly has a delicious, gooey, purple/green molten center) is that Batman won't kill anyone.......... Yet he murders virtually the entire League of Shadows, including the thief who they were trying to get him to execute... He murders Dent (for exactly the same reason that Supes kills Zod)... and he'd be tried for murder for how Talia goes down as well.

So, MrsKent, the only human qualities you could really ascribe to Nolan/Goyer's work are stupidity and self-righteousness...

For a series that will forever be remembered for the character who says "Why So Serious?" (itself a TERRIBLE line of dialogue)... the whole damn thing took itself wayyyyy too seriously.

And the legacy continues with everything that Goyer will touch.
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Old 11-28-2013, 04:33 PM   #863
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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But the end of MOS? Perfect ending, but it doesnt make any sense seeing the Daily Planet stuff and the high spirits of everyone as if nothing happened. That's bad writing from Goyer even though the individual scene is executed well by both Snyder and Zimmer.
The scene begs the question of just how long it take 4 people in a news office to get back to work and standard rapport after a disaster hits their town that involves none of their families. What's more it throws in the variable feelings of a populace that has just been introduced to a super hero savior(our real world disasters never apply that variable), something that might lead to "hope" and peace of mind in some of the survivors.

Granted it appears there are people in the movie audience that seemingly view this movies in real time, so as to suggest that lois and her peers dusted themselves off, walked up the the street to the new office building and got back into it as if nothing happened, but the reality is the film doesn't tell you how long the time in between was. It let's the audience(good luck) decide for themselves what makes the most sense given what's presented. Clark went back home and spent time with his mom, no doubt leaving after she had a working roof over her head. He figured out what he wanted to do and then returned to the city after things had died down, people had moved on, and offices had been fully relocated...etc All shown.

This could have been anywhere from a week to a month, I personally don't see that happening inside of a week. However, it's not specified so again, it's left up to the individual to put it all together(we all had fun stretching our mental powers during inception). From everything I saw in that epilogue, I've say at least 2 weeks had passed, at which point, it makes sense to me, for these 4 people(including Perry) to be in "high spirits". Speaking for myself it's not like the Daily Planet was in party mode.

All that being said, the MoS audience experience this transition in what 4minutes...I'm not surprised by the response. Perhaps Snyder should have added a subtitle at the bottom, a bit of show don't tell if you will.

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Old 11-28-2013, 04:45 PM   #864
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The scene begs the question of just how long it take 4 people in a news office to get back to work and standard rapport after a disaster hits their town that involves none of their families. What's more it throws in the variable feelings of a populace that has just been introduced to a super hero savior(our real world disasters never apply that variable), something that might lead to "hope" and peace of mind in some of the survivors.

Granted it appears there are people in the movie audience that seemingly view this movies in real time, so as to suggest that lois and her peers dusted themselves off, walked up the the street to the new office building and got back into it as if nothing happened, but the reality is the film doesn't tell you how long the time in between was. It let's the audience(good luck) decide for themselves what makes the most sense given what's presented. Clark went back home and spent time with his mom, no doubt leaving after she had a working roof over her head. He figured out what he wanted to do and then returned to the city after things had died down, people had moved on, and offices had been fully relocated...etc All shown.

This could have been anywhere from I personally don't see that happening inside of a week. However, it's not specified so again, it's left up to the individual to put it all together(we all had fun stretching our mental powers during inception). From everything I saw in that epilogue, I've say at least 2 weeks had passed, at which point, it makes sense to me, for these 4 people(including Perry) to be in "high spirits". Speaking for myself it's not like the Daily Planet was in party mode.

All that being said, the MoS audience experience this transition in what 4minutes...I'm not surprised by the response. Perhaps Snyder should have added a subtitle at the bottom, a bit of show don't tell if you will.
I really feel a fade to black after killing Zod would have done a lot to ease the tonal disconnect people experienced.

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Old 11-28-2013, 04:48 PM   #865
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

I dunno... I think even just rearranging the scenes so that the martha/clark talk was what immediately followed rather than the Swanwick scene might have helped.

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Old 11-28-2013, 04:58 PM   #866
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

I think if following Zod's death the scene was Martha and Clark and the cemetery it could have satisfied some people who felt the destruction and death wasn't acknowledged.

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Old 11-28-2013, 05:06 PM   #867
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I really feel a fade to black after killing Zod would have done a lot to ease the tonal disconnect people experienced.
Agreed. I will admit that it felt jarring to me how easily it just moved to the next scene. I had similar feeling of "wait a minute" when the quickly flashed the suit before Clark put it on.

There are some scenes where I think the a decision was made not to dwell on it. While this worked in some cases it didn't work for everything.

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I've heard so many people talk about how Superman would kill Lois if they ever had sex, but I've never heard someone make this point before and it's brilliant. If Superman's bodily fluids are so dangerous, then he'd have to use a kryptonite toilet every time he takes a dump.
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Old 11-28-2013, 05:09 PM   #868
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I think if following Zod's death the scene was Martha and Clark and the cemetery it could have satisfied some people who felt the destruction and death wasn't acknowledged.
Yup

Though I have to admit, for it to have really worked for me they would have had to change some of the dialogue in that scene.

My first viewing, the neck snap had me so in shock I barely even acknowledged the following scene.

It was when Martha started talking about how proud Jonathon would have been and how Clark was now the hero they'd always dreamed he'd be, that I broke out of my shock and actually started crying and feeling a bit sick.

But there we go, was what it was.


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Old 11-28-2013, 05:11 PM   #869
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

I think most people agree that there needed to be something different than what we were given after Zod dies. I did like Supes exchange with the General but it following such a hard hitting scene as Zod's death and finishing the scene with the "I just think he's kind of hott" just does not flow. There are too many jumps and skips with the last 4 scenes with not enough context.

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Old 11-28-2013, 05:44 PM   #870
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I think if following Zod's death the scene was Martha and Clark and the cemetery it could have satisfied some people who felt the destruction and death wasn't acknowledged.
Not that this is the thread but:
MOS addressed it more than any other film in this genre has, by that I mean the heroes reaction. And great deal of them have committed themselves to said act. That it even had to speaks to the preconceptions no one will admit to having.

Curious why this film but not others(including the originals) need such pampering(for lack of a better word)?
I fear with the coming explanation we might get to the root of much of this films reception.

My hypothesis, Snyder directed this film with a dramatic tonal consistency that the genre's audience isn't used to and it has them double taking where they usually just accept, and move on. From destruction to death to a secret identity. Everything is all of a sudden "real" and accountable.
perhaps...

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Old 11-28-2013, 05:49 PM   #871
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I think most people agree that there needed to be something different than what we were given after Zod dies. I did like Supes exchange with the General but it following such a hard hitting scene as Zod's death and finishing the scene with the "I just think he's kind of hott" just does not flow. There are too many jumps and skips with the last 4 scenes with not enough context.
If you take that scene and play it out with out the "kind of hot" line. Then this film commits the great sin of not having enough levity, taking itself to serious..etc.

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Old 11-28-2013, 05:55 PM   #872
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If you take that scene and play it out with out the "kind of hot" line. Then this film commits the great sin of not having enough levity, taking itself to serious..etc.
I don't think it would. For me, the standout scene of the film is when Clark returns home to Martha, it's one of the handful of times he's genuinely happy.

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Old 11-28-2013, 05:57 PM   #873
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Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
The scene begs the question of just how long it take 4 people in a news office to get back to work and standard rapport after a disaster hits their town that involves none of their families. What's more it throws in the variable feelings of a populace that has just been introduced to a super hero savior(our real world disasters never apply that variable), something that might lead to "hope" and peace of mind in some of the survivors.

Granted it appears there are people in the movie audience that seemingly view this movies in real time, so as to suggest that lois and her peers dusted themselves off, walked up the the street to the new office building and got back into it as if nothing happened, but the reality is the film doesn't tell you how long the time in between was. It let's the audience(good luck) decide for themselves what makes the most sense given what's presented. Clark went back home and spent time with his mom, no doubt leaving after she had a working roof over her head. He figured out what he wanted to do and then returned to the city after things had died down, people had moved on, and offices had been fully relocated...etc All shown.

This could have been anywhere from a week to a month, I personally don't see that happening inside of a week. However, it's not specified so again, it's left up to the individual to put it all together(we all had fun stretching our mental powers during inception). From everything I saw in that epilogue, I've say at least 2 weeks had passed, at which point, it makes sense to me, for these 4 people(including Perry) to be in "high spirits". Speaking for myself it's not like the Daily Planet was in party mode.

All that being said, the MoS audience experience this transition in what 4minutes...I'm not surprised by the response. Perhaps Snyder should have added a subtitle at the bottom, a bit of show don't tell if you will.
The problem I have with that explanation is that I have a hard time believing that people would be able to move on from that kind of trauma in just a couple of months. I remember the first couple of years following 9/11, it took a lot of people in this country a very long time to movie on, and most of them didn't even directly experience it. The destruction in Man of Steel was much greater than what took place on 9/11 and all of the Daily Planet staff witnessed it directly and probably all knew at least a couple of people who died. The notion that they were able to move on, even after a few months, seems very implausible to me.

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Old 11-28-2013, 05:59 PM   #874
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Yup

It was when Martha started talking about how proud Jonathon would have been and how Clark was now the hero they'd always dreamed he'd be, that I broke out of my shock and actually started crying and feeling a bit sick.
I know we all get quite worked up about these movies sometimes, but don't you think that's a bit much? I mean, having that reaction to a movie seems...intense and worrisome. I wasn't gonna say anything because it's not my business, but you did post it openly. If it gets you crying and sick, you might not want to watch BvsS.


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Old 11-28-2013, 06:07 PM   #875
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Some people like MOS. Some people don't. At some point these discussions have nothing to do with critical analysis but getting someone else to change their mind and agree with you.
Yup. Personally I couldn't care less if someone hates a movie I like. They are, just like I am, entitled to an opinion. It's when they go all out to prove that I'm wrong for liking it that bothers me. Or when they call me a fanboy or some other similar insulting sobriquet because I dared to like something they didn't and had the audacity to say that I thought it was a good movie. (or book, or song, or game ...)

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