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Old 11-30-2013, 11:47 PM   #926
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Originally Posted by The Boy Scout View Post
Like I said earlier: I think it would've been more interesting if Clark had just straight up told the government who he was in an effort to win their trust.
That's a pretty good idea actually.

To be fair, he did give them some room. He surrendered to them openly, and shows a willingness to talk with Swanwick, within boundaries. He also collaborated with them in the battle of Metropolis.

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Old 11-30-2013, 11:53 PM   #927
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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That's a pretty good idea actually.

To be fair, he did give them some room. He surrendered to them openly, and shows a willingness to talk with Swanwick, within boundaries. He also collaborated with them in the battle of Metropolis.
Yep. I think he did pretty good dealing with them. And it could set up some interesting things. He's willing to trust them, but will they be trustworthy? Which could factor in what you said here:

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Originally Posted by DA_Champion View Post
Information is power. If the government and only the government knows that Clark is superman, then:

1) They buy time;
2) They hold an intelligence advantage over Russia, China, etc in terms of alien affairs;
3) They have potential leverage over Clark/Superman if things ever turn sour;

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Old 12-01-2013, 12:48 AM   #928
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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You're really turning into a troll.

You accuse me of saying that the government would never know where the aliens landed, and then you quote me as saying that the government would protect his secret.

Not sure what your deal, but it's too bad.
Are you the only one I quoted?????? Did I quote your first????????? Did I quote someone else???????

I think your "belligerent" posts are trolling, almost never talking about the topic at hand and trying to make personal attacks basically causing a failure of any meaningful conversation.

How about you let me be and never reply to any of my posts again because I am not interested to hear from you?

But I guess that is too much to ask.

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Old 12-01-2013, 01:14 AM   #929
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

One thing I think everyone is missing is we don't really know if anyone is looking for Superman's secret identity. We know Swanick and the military are, but so far they have been unsuccessful. And although it was revealed Superman had been hiding amongst humans, after he revealed himself and the alien invasion, is anyone still questioning rather he has a secret identity? That's an important question that matters.

The fact Superman doesn't wear a mask and is not trying to hide may be more important than some are considering. It could also play into the next movie because we will meet a masked crusader who is in fact hiding his identity.

On another note I do think it is very plausible the military may already know about Clark. They did take Lois' computer and research, that was mentioned in the movie. However, they obviously did not find enough information to piece it together. They may still find out at some later date. Someone mentioned Waller, which is a good point because in most incarnations she already knows these secret identities, but the information is classified so everyone else doesn't know.

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I've heard so many people talk about how Superman would kill Lois if they ever had sex, but I've never heard someone make this point before and it's brilliant. If Superman's bodily fluids are so dangerous, then he'd have to use a kryptonite toilet every time he takes a dump.
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Old 12-01-2013, 01:36 AM   #930
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

I expect them to take the Smallville approach and just make everyone around Clark into idiots when there's even more evidence that he's Superman compared to how the comics handle it.

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Old 12-01-2013, 01:40 AM   #931
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

I think as long as they don't press their luck with writing scenarios that actively ask for characters to question whether Clark is Superman then with a little bit of suspension of disbelief then it should be fine enough.

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Old 12-01-2013, 01:45 AM   #932
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

Smallville didn't really handle it well in my opinion. The only thing I thought they did really well was constantly reinforce no one could get a picture of the RBB. If the movies were to go that route I think that would be a good thing.

I just don't see the disguise being all that difficult to pull off. There are definitely some inconsistencies in MOS that could make it easy for someone else to find out. I'll give anyone that, but if the writers actual choose to address them then they are solvable issues...not overwhelming problems like some are saying. It's also likely they won't even address these issues as problems at all in the next movie.

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Originally Posted by Rowsdower! View Post
I've heard so many people talk about how Superman would kill Lois if they ever had sex, but I've never heard someone make this point before and it's brilliant. If Superman's bodily fluids are so dangerous, then he'd have to use a kryptonite toilet every time he takes a dump.
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Old 12-01-2013, 08:30 AM   #933
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

I think by having people like Lois or the military already know his identity is that it takes the impact of Batman using his wits to find out. I love the scene in Worlds Finest when he waves to Clark in his apartment.

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Old 12-01-2013, 09:36 AM   #934
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Are you the only one I quoted?????? Did I quote your first????????? Did I quote someone else???????
I was the vast majority of your quotes.

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I think your "belligerent" posts are trolling, almost never talking about the topic at hand and trying to make personal attacks basically causing a failure of any meaningful conversation.

How about you let me be and never reply to any of my posts again because I am not interested to hear from you?
You write a post where the majority of your content are DA_Champion quotes, along with some false explanations, and then you ask me not to respond to you.

Go take a breather, you've been off your rocker for a few days now. Pity, I used to like your posts. I hope you calm down soon.


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Old 12-01-2013, 10:25 AM   #935
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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The problem with MOS is that it does a poor job with Superman's identity even by Superman standards. When you try to sell a film & base its story on "Superman in the real world" and the comics do a better job with Clark's identity than the actual film, then you screwed up.
Well… yes and no. The business of glasses-as-effective-disguise might just be presented as a narrative conceit - and without further explanation or apology. But the comics were perpetually self-conscious about this trope and often felt the need to “rationalize” it or - worse - make it an object of ridicule. Thus, Lois would suspect the truth - and then there’d be a wacky scenario to convince this world class investigator that the truth wasn’t actually the truth.

MOS avoided much of this by having Lois in on the secret from the beginning and by fashioning a story which postponed the disguise issue until the very last scene of the movie. Granted, this raises a number of questions about the sequel (hence, Goyer’s comment and the existence of this thread ). But MOS, itself, avoided many of the classic problems because (as an origin tale) they didn’t come up.

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Old 12-01-2013, 10:31 AM   #936
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

Taking Man of Steel as an isolated story, the identity isn't that bad. But the same can be said if you took a singular comic book story (like Hunter/Prey). In terms of a narrative universe, it's very bad.

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Old 12-01-2013, 11:28 AM   #937
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

I think the government has connected the dots. What they are looking for at the end of the movie with that drone, is probably Superman's "Fortress of Solitude", supposing he has constructed one. They want to keep tabs on him because they don't fully trust him, and that's it. In The Dark Knight Returns, the government knows Kent is Superman. It doesn't mean anything at the end of the day. In the MOSverse, Superman and the government will work probably end up working together. Hopefully not like in TDKR mind you, but as proper allies. The government has no business revealing the identity. To them, it doesn't matter who Superman is, or was, but what he can do.

What's important for the Clark identity is that the world at large doesn't figure out that Clark is Superman by simply looking at him. And for that you need suspension of disbelief, just like always. Jesus, people.

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Old 12-01-2013, 12:18 PM   #938
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Well… yes and no. The business of glasses-as-effective-disguise might just be presented as a narrative conceit - and without further explanation or apology. But the comics were perpetually self-conscious about this trope and often felt the need to “rationalize” it or - worse - make it an object of ridicule. Thus, Lois would suspect the truth - and then there’d be a wacky scenario to convince this world class investigator that the truth wasn’t actually the truth.

MOS avoided much of this by having Lois in on the secret from the beginning and by fashioning a story which postponed the disguise issue until the very last scene of the movie. Granted, this raises a number of questions about the sequel (hence, Goyer’s comment and the existence of this thread ). But MOS, itself, avoided many of the classic problems because (as an origin tale) they didn’t come up.
I'm talking about long-term. This will severely affect Clark Kent's identity in the future. Which is why I think they'll shrug it off as poor writing on their part (in the first film) and continue as if nothing happened.

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I think the government has connected the dots. What they are looking for at the end of the movie with that drone, is probably Superman's "Fortress of Solitude", supposing he has constructed one. They want to keep tabs on him because they don't fully trust him, and that's it. In The Dark Knight Returns, the government knows Kent is Superman. It doesn't mean anything at the end of the day. In the MOSverse, Superman and the government will work probably end up working together. Hopefully not like in TDKR mind you, but as proper allies. The government has no business revealing the identity. To them, it doesn't matter who Superman is, or was, but what he can do.

What's important for the Clark identity is that the world at large doesn't figure out that Clark is Superman by simply looking at him. And for that you need suspension of disbelief, just like always. Jesus, people.
The government knowing his identity doesn't mean anything? It means a lot. It's not that they would reveal it to the public but that they would use it in their favor and try to control Superman with it. It is a big no-no, something even MOS makes clear (with that "I know you want to find where I hang my cape but I won't let you" line at the end).

As for Superman and the government being portrayed as allies, I find that unlikely. We live in the age where superheroes have become more anti-authority than ever, possibly due to people in real life being more anti-authority now than ever before. The chances of them going that route are unlikely, especially since they have that whole "real world" thing going on.

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Old 12-01-2013, 12:24 PM   #939
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

I hope they do a better job of the government knowing than Smallville did. The way Smallville did it Clark was basically a vassal of the government because they could kill him whenever they wanted. They'd go to the farm and zap him with kryptonite and tons of soldiers knew.

Everything was bad until his mother went to Washington and climbed the ladder so fast that she was the red queen within 2 years.

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Old 12-01-2013, 12:46 PM   #940
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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I hope they do a better job of the government knowing than Smallville did. The way Smallville did it Clark was basically a vassal of the government because they could kill him whenever they wanted. They'd go to the farm and zap him with kryptonite and tons of soldiers knew.

Everything was bad until his mother went to Washington and climbed the ladder so fast that she was the red queen within 2 years.
I'd forgotten about that, one of smallville's dumber moments, and that's saying something.

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Old 12-01-2013, 01:07 PM   #941
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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Yes. Yes it does mean a great deal. Seeing as how it was Lois' personal leads and sources that she developed that led her to Clark in the first place. She didn't pick up a trail that EVERYONE had seen the patterns of and was working on, at least based on what we're shown in the film. She put the pieces together herself in a certain way...and had the trust of Clark and Martha at the end in order to get anywhere with her lead. There's no guarantee that the government would be able to do the same given the changed circumstances.
What sources? We saw her track him down by interviewing person and person that Clark encountered. She was literally tracing his journey to its origin, which was at the Kent Farm. Her finding out also had nothing to do with earning Clark and Martha's trust. She simply tracked him down to the Kent farm and already had a story she was going to publish back then, until Clark came in and convinced her not to with his "My father believed the world isn't ready" speech. She didn't pick up a trail "everyone" was following because nobody was following it other than her prior to the Zod message. As I said before, the government has far more resources and should realistically better investigators than Lois (a professional FBI or CIA investigator could trace Clark back to Smallville in the same amount of time or even quicker). No matter what way you put it, it makes zero sense at all for Lois to track him down and for the government to not be able to. It wouldn't have been a problem at all if Lois wasn't able to track him in the first place but because she is able to track him like that, then it creates a plot hole when the government isn't able to do the same.

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I'm starting to question whether you know what evidence actually is and how investigations work. Nothing the government has at the end of the film is anything resembling concrete evidence. "The bad guys landed around here" is not remotely evidence pointing to Superman's identity.
There is evidence that is concrete about a case and then there is evidence that, although it doesn't prove anything directly, makes a case as to why there needs to be more investigations in a specific area.

By the end of the film, the government has the following clues to Superman's identity that Lois did not have:
1) They know Superman is 33.
2) They know he grew up in Kansas.
3) They know the aliens landed in Smallville (since they confronted them there) and Smallville would be the first place they would investigate in Kansas.

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Well, if we're just going to poo poo anything that's not in the movie, that kind of torpedoes your argument then, doesn't it?
How so?

You also seem to have missed or ignored this part:
"Even if that is the case, Lois still managed to get information out of them and find out about Clark Kent."

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Hmm. Possibly. Can you prove it? How do you know the general doesn't trust Superman a little more after he tells him that he's American as they come and that he grew up in Kansas?
Now you're really grasping at straws IMO. You are taking a line of dialogue that was meant to add some levity to the film and you are interpreting it as a major turn in the general's development and trust with Superman. Plus, the general still doesn't trust Superman, as seen by how annoyed he is after Superman leaves and by his assistant's "I think he's kinda hot" line. It is beyond obvious that he isn't exactly Superman's buddy by the end of the film and is most likely to turn that information in. And even if he doesn't turn that information in, it still makes Superman look like a complete idiot for telling him that and trusting the guy that's trying to track him down with that information.

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But the problem is that you assume that they would get this information in the same way that Lois did and that this is the way their investigation would unfold.
1) They would get their information in a more easier and more narrowed-down way because they have more information on Superman and more direct places to investigate (i.e. Smallville).
2) They would have far better resources and investigators than Lois. I said it so many times by now and cannot stress this point enough. This is key.

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What's your point? As far as what Clark and Superman look like, at some point you and others are going to have to use your imagination a bit regarding the whole "Clark looks like Superman" thing and accept that it's just a staple of the mythology. I'm sure that they will build some other checks into his secret identity as well.
My point is that it was a staple of the mythology that I could have accepted just fine using my imagination until Goyer & Snyder came in and made it 100 times harder for people to accept it through their ridiculous nonsense and plot holes in the film.

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Given that a battle took place there, Smallville is probably going to be investigated regardless. I'm not denying that Smallville will likely be investigated. I'm saying you cannot assume their investigation will yield the identity of Superman.
I can because Lois' investigation yielded the identity of Superman so easily. I wouldn't have assumed that or found that probable had Lois not been able to track him down. But by the film's own logic, the government should easily be able to find out who he is by the end of the film.

However, I do know that they won't find out who Superman is not because they can't but because it is a plot hole that Goyer and Snyder will just conveniently choose to ignore and pretend as if it wasn't present. That is if they even realized it exists in the first place.

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I see. So then...why wasn't there military/police presence there during the aftermath of the battle in Smallville (other than the cop who clearly just gave Lois a lift)? Why weren't various agencies combing the exact site the Kryptonians landed at right away?
Because the Kryptonians then moved to a different place in Smallville (where the big battle took place) and spent most of their time there. There was tons of military presence there.

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Which proves nothing except that Lois asked to go to the Kent farm, and the police officer might have seen Superman and the house destroyed.
Of course. Aliens invade the farm after announcing to the whole globe that they're looking for one of their people and he won't suspect a thing.

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I've already addressed this. A, it's an assumption, and B, this still doesn't prove anything. It's not solid evidence.
Fair enough. I'll give you a pass on this.

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As I recall, the officer was not really "right there". He was at the road, and she was more or less halfway to the farmhouse.

Call BS all you want. You cannot prove your theory.
She got out of the car and yelled "Clark!" like 2 - 5 seconds after. She would still be within the officer's hearing radius for him to hear that.

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No it doesn't. It's incredibly silly.
And the solution is to make it 1000 times sillier?

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And didn't you suggest that if they investigated Lois' friends, Clark's identity would be revealed because people could compare Clark to Superman visually?
The difference between the comics and the film is that the comics would have no solid reason to randomly investigate Lois' friends. The film has every reason to have Lois' friends be investigated.

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No, MOS didn't deal with the concept of the secret identity at all, really. It just showed why Clark would need one in the future.
I'm looking at things in a long-term perspective. It made a case for why Clark needs one, will give him one in the future, but has created a situation in which he would technically not be able to have one.

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Old 12-01-2013, 01:57 PM   #942
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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I'd forgotten about that, one of smallville's dumber moments, and that's saying something.
I remember reading comments of how people didn't think the Red Queen was his mom because those legs could NO WAY be Annette O'Toole's and then in an interview she all "**** you!" to those people.

But, the idea of it made me groan. I feel like they didn't know what to do with the character and decided to make her the Red Queen so O'Toole could have something worthwhile to do for her guest appearance. And there was the whole thing of having Martha dating Perry.

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Old 12-01-2013, 02:00 PM   #943
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

Going by the Jesus allegory established in MoS, General Swanwick could play the role of Peter.

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Old 12-01-2013, 02:59 PM   #944
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

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The government knowing his identity doesn't mean anything? It means a lot. It's not that they would reveal it to the public but that they would use it in their favor and try to control Superman with it. It is a big no-no, something even MOS makes clear (with that "I know you want to find where I hang my cape but I won't let you" line at the end).
How would they control Superman with that? They don't have the means to stop Superman, or a reason to do so anyways. At the end of MOS, Superman says that they don't have to worry about him, but that he also will help people his own way. He won't be a government puppet.

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As for Superman and the government being portrayed as allies, I find that unlikely. We live in the age where superheroes have become more anti-authority than ever, possibly due to people in real life being more anti-authority now than ever before. The chances of them going that route are unlikely, especially since they have that whole "real world" thing going on.
LOL. If Brainiac decided to shrink Metropolis the government would be running out to Superman for help.

Er, I'm not sure that people are more anti-authority now than ever before, but what I mean by allies is basically what we saw in MOS. If Darkseid decided to invade Earth, the military would join forces with Superman to help save the world. They would work together as allies during the conflict. Simple.

And the "real world" thing is highly exaggerated. What they wanted to do with this version of Superman is make it feel grounded, but it's still sci-fi fantasy, or whatever you want to call it.

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Old 12-01-2013, 03:53 PM   #945
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

Would any of you guys be okay with a hologram-based explanation for the secret identity? As in, some sort of Krypto-tech (the source could be the glasses) that distorts Clark's features to the point of simply making him look like a different person (not that much different, but different enough. They could even pay homage to previous Superman actors)? I'm not asking if you guys think it's a good idea, but if you would be okay with it. Knowing yourselves, is it something you could forgive and tolerate, if not like?

I know I would. Just throwing that out there.

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Old 12-01-2013, 04:13 PM   #946
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

Yeah, I've often thought about something like that. It would be cool if the people in the movie saw a slightly different looking Clark, different enough from Superman that no one would ever make the connection. but we as an audience would see Cavill just wearing glasses, just see him as he really is. And with the glasses being the device that makes his secret identity possible, you still keep the iconic look for Clark, but do away with the suspension of disbelief thing.

However, it seems like in the MOSverse, suspension of disbelief will have to suffice for most. And that's fine.

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Old 12-01-2013, 04:16 PM   #947
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

I used to think about that, people see Clark differently than what he is. Except Lois.

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Old 12-01-2013, 04:28 PM   #948
Nemeres
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

I think it would be a way of having their cake and eating it too. It wouldn't surpirse me if Goyer had already thought of something similar. Without the bumbling Clark act, the disguise is too flimsy, and evidently so. God forbid they have that in their realistic world.

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Old 12-01-2013, 05:03 PM   #949
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemeres View Post
Would any of you guys be okay with a hologram-based explanation for the secret identity? As in, some sort of Krypto-tech (the source could be the glasses) that distorts Clark's features to the point of simply making him look like a different person (not that much different, but different enough. They could even pay homage to previous Superman actors)? I'm not asking if you guys think it's a good idea, but if you would be okay with it. Knowing yourselves, is it something you could forgive and tolerate, if not like?

I know I would. Just throwing that out there.
I think it's the equivalent of giving Superman a mask.

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Old 12-01-2013, 05:21 PM   #950
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Default Re: Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

we'll see how it works out in the next movie. I hope it's handled intelligently.

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