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Old 11-26-2013, 11:19 PM   #251
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 11

Hmm. I thought the core story from Goyer was quite strong, with a lot of great dialogue throughout (despite some a few cheeseball lines).

and while I thought Snyder knocked most scenes out of the park, I'd say he was also responsible for the main thing that turned people off: the exhausting action of the third act and the tonal treatment of the climax.


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Old 11-26-2013, 11:29 PM   #252
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 11

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Hmm. I thought the core story from Goyer was quite strong, with a lot of great dialogue throughout (despite some a few cheeseball lines).

and while I thought Snyder knocked most scenes out of the park, I'd say he was also responsible for the main thing that turned people off: the exhausting action of the third act and the tonal treatment of the climax.
True, though as a film itself (from a technical standpoint), I thought Snyder made a better film than most comic book genre blockbusters that have come out within the last decade.

As a filmmaker, I feel like Snyder made a better film (not story) than the likes of the Avengers from a technical standpoint. Heck, if Whedon had Snyder's visual and film-making skills, I feel like the Avengers' films would be better for it.

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Old 11-26-2013, 11:39 PM   #253
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 11

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I didn't hate the film, but to me the film is equal parts brilliance and stupidity. Frankly I can see a much better film if given to the right director.
I agree. I wouldnt admit this earlier but ive had time to stay away from the movie and then see it on Blu-Ray. I enjoyed it quite a bit but i have to say that i like Zack's personality much more than his actual filmmaking. I have no clue who would have directed this other than him but i think you're right.

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I liked MOS good enough upon my first watch. I’ve seen it again since then. MOS isn’t dire or anything – it’s my fave Supe movie of the lot. But it didn’t really offer anything new, just expanded. Eg. Krypton stuff again, but this time Jor-El fights, etc.

That’s why I’m excited about Bat/Supe. A brand new overarching plot with stuff that hasn’t been covered yet.
It's my favorite Superman movie too but it's true that it didn't really offer anything new to the world of movies or even comic book movies. It didn't further its evolution.

Im also excited for Batman vs Superman because the concept has never been done before unlike a Superman origin story. Plus im sure it'll be toned down in comparison to MOS. I doubt there's an alien invasion or the level of building destruction we saw in the first. Certainly no Superman fighting Batman in outer space wrecking satellites until it crashes to earth lol.

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Same could be said about every film ever made. CBM's especially.
Ummm not really.

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There's no way its a bad film. I don't understand how people can hate it. There's just no way it's on the same level as TDK and The Avengers. No way.
Well, ill put it this way. I prefer Superman as a character over any of the Avengers but i prefer Batman over Superman any day of the week. But as a movie, it doesn't hold Dark Knights jock.

I actually enjoyed MOS over Avengers because of the character and cast but recently i recognize how balanced Avengers really is next to MOS. Perhaps when you have a lighter tone with the witty back & forth humor within the dialogue....i guess the mindless fights/destruction in the final act meshes pretty well with the rest. So when MOS is going for a more serious tone and Snyder wants to shoot equally mindless fights/destruction in his final act, perhaps you need a Joss Whedon-type to balance things out with such witty back & forth humor between characters. Not Superman. Because he's not Tony Stark or Peter Parker. Maybe more like Captain America in being a straight forward leader without too much darkness. So then it should fall on the supporting cast..

But Goyer isn't that kind of writer. He wasn't trying to be Whedon (couldn't if he tried) because it was more serious tonally. But maybe that's the lesson. If you want it to be so serious, don't throw in over the top action that never ends. Strip the destruction down to even the odds.

I guess that's why Avengers could be called the overall better film.

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Old 11-27-2013, 12:31 AM   #254
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There's no way its a bad film. I don't understand how people can hate it. There's just no way it's on the same level as TDK and The Avengers. No way.
I think it's a little below average.

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On another note, once the dust settles from their conflict with each other in the film, I'm still hoping that Batman and superman are allowed to develop some kind of friendship with each other. Seriously, it'd be nice to see Superman having a male friend that isn't Jimmy Olsen, one who you could picture Superman going to for help in tough situation should the need rise.
Agreed.

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Hmm. I thought the core story from Goyer was quite strong, with a lot of great dialogue throughout (despite some a few cheeseball lines).
The story itself was fine; it was the execution of it that I didn't really like. I thought the dialogue was okay, for the most part.

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and while I thought Snyder knocked most scenes out of the park, I'd say he was also responsible for the main thing that turned people off: the exhausting action of the third act and the tonal treatment of the climax.
God, that was exhausting.

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I agree. I wouldnt admit this earlier but ive had time to stay away from the movie and then see it on Blu-Ray. I enjoyed it quite a bit but i have to say that i like Zack's personality much more than his actual filmmaking. I have no clue who would have directed this other than him but i think you're right.
He's such a cool guy. I genuinely feel bad for not liking MOS, because you can tell he tried so hard.

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It's my favorite Superman movie too but it's true that it didn't really offer anything new to the world of movies or even comic book movies. It didn't further its evolution.
STM is my favorite. And before anyone gets the wrong idea, I was born in 1995, so I have no attachment to the Donner films.

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Old 11-27-2013, 12:31 AM   #255
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 11

For me,

Avengers on first watch = 9.5/10 (really exciting because of the heroes meeting, and it was a breezy watch that never got too heavy).

Avengers now = 6/10 (because the excitement of a team up has worn off, and I now see the story is bonkers, it looks like a TV movie at times, and the Whedon dialogue makes me want to throw up.)

----

Man of Steel on first watch = 8/10. (Great up until the exhausting last act. )

Man of Steel now = 8/10. (Story/performances still engage me every time, right from the opening music)


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Old 11-27-2013, 12:36 AM   #256
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 11

I haven't seen either film since seeing them in theaters. I never thought Avengers was all that. I actually think it would be a chore to watch the whole thing over again.

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Old 11-27-2013, 12:36 AM   #257
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 11

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There's no way its a bad film. I don't understand how people can hate it. There's just no way it's on the same level as TDK and The Avengers. No way.
I mostly agree with this. I thought MOS was good, but not the best movie ever, like some people were predicting. I remember lurking in those days and people did actually say they thought it would be the best CBM ever. The hype was insane. And I think that was a problem. Going into a movie thinking it will be the best ever is setting it up for a failure. The odds of a movie living up to that are rare. Having said that, MOS is a good movie, but not Dark Knight good. I don't really use avengers in my scale because I don't think it's any kind of cinematic triumph, but the Dark Knight scale works for me. If TDK is a 10, I give MOS somewhere between a 7 to an 8.

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Old 11-27-2013, 12:45 AM   #258
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 11

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Same could be said about every film ever made. CBM's especially.
But I'm saying it about this one.

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Old 11-27-2013, 12:47 AM   #259
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 11

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Interesting that you blame Snyder, I personally thought the problems were with the script.
The script has it's problems but they are made worse by Snyder's directorial traits. A better director could have elevated the story much more than what Snyder did.

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Old 11-27-2013, 12:50 AM   #260
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 11

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The script has it's problems but they are made worse by Snyder's directorial traits. A better director could have elevated the story much more than what Snyder did.
How so? And what director could do this? Just curious.

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Old 11-27-2013, 12:53 AM   #261
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 11

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Originally Posted by FeedOnATreeFrog View Post
Hmm. I thought the core story from Goyer was quite strong, with a lot of great dialogue throughout (despite some a few cheeseball lines).

and while I thought Snyder knocked most scenes out of the park, I'd say he was also responsible for the main thing that turned people off: the exhausting action of the third act and the tonal treatment of the climax.
I was mentally exhausted the first time I saw MOS in theatres mainly because of the long fights scenes in the third act, i can see why many people would have issues with it.

But, the exhausting final fight was a necessity,to tone it down or shorten it would do disservice to the level of threat Zod and company presented, there was no way getting around it.

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Old 11-27-2013, 12:56 AM   #262
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 11

I disagree. Some of the action could have definitely been cut or trimmed to make the final battle easier to sit through. That whole scene with the tentacles could have been cut.

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Old 11-27-2013, 12:58 AM   #263
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How so? And what director could do this? Just curious.
Duncan Jones was a name being touted, from his two films Moon and Source Code he would have been my pick. Snyder's strengths are in short film making, it's why his trailers always look awesome, he can't stretch that to a 2 hour feature however, he has a tendency to choose style over substance and is more or less incapable of delivering any emotional beat to his films, or at least deliver a haphazard one.

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Old 11-27-2013, 01:10 AM   #264
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 11

On another note, given MOS having pushed the limits of what people thought that they would see Superman do and be placed in, do you guys think that Goyer and Snyder would go even further and do something by placing Superman in a situation within this film where people start asking Superman on why he doesn't do more for the world given his powers?

I mean, let's imagine if people started asking superman to liberate them from their tyrannical leaders that oppress them in their country (think a place like North Korea) or if people started gathering in groups and demanded that Superman execute a repeated serial killer that he's just caught?

If done right, this could be some very compelling drama to watch.

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Old 11-27-2013, 01:12 AM   #265
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 11

I'm parting ways with a few shirts and hoodies that I was able to get off the set of Man of Steel 2. If anyone is interested, PM me.

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Old 11-27-2013, 01:19 AM   #266
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 11

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Originally Posted by herolee10 View Post
On another note, given MOS having pushed the limits of what people thought that they would see Superman do and be placed in, do you guys think that Goyer and Snyder would go even further and do something by placing Superman in a situation within this film where people start asking Superman on why he doesn't do more for the world given his powers?
Would they? I believe so. Goyer's hinted at it. However...

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If done right, this could be some very compelling drama to watch.
I'm not sure if they're the guys who will do it right.

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Old 11-27-2013, 01:43 AM   #267
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 11

Having had several months to sit on MOS, and having recently re-watched it a couple times after buying the DVD, I can say that while I stick by my initial love of the film, its flaws are also clear to me at this point.

Recently I watched the Red Letter Media review of the film and was a bit floored by how negative the commentary was. But some of the criticisms expressed are certainly valid - in particular their observations on the massive civilian casualties that have proved the biggest sticking point of the film.

For example, when Col. Hardy says "this man is not our enemy," you have to ask - really? It's surprising the military would say that given how much damage Smallville took. Or when we're supposed to feel tension over the potential death of four random people in the film's climax, it's hard to feel as much emotion as you should when you've just seen thousands of innocent people die in Metropolis.

The immense destruction in the film's climax was noticeable even during my first viewing and has become more undeniable with time. It's true - when you see skyscraper after skyscraper collapsing with not-very-subtle 9/11 imagery, you start to view the ending as simply an utter disaster for everyone involved. The headline of the Daily Planet's next edition wouldn't be "Superman saves the day!" but "Thousands die in alien attack."

Maybe that was the intention of the filmmakers. Snyder has said how he wanted to give the final battle a mythological feel with that level of destruction. But unfortunately, no matter how you cut it, I think it's ultimately a massive contradiction in the heart of the film. Superman is supposed to represent hope, but the colossal destruction and thousands of deaths that occur in the film simply would not have occurred if Kal-El wasn't living on earth.

Again, the filmmakers could be simply expanding on the trope of how superheroes draw destruction, chaos and supervillains to them (TDK explored this theme very well). But the sheer level of destruction in this case kind of undermines Superman as a symbol of hope and optimism, and that sucks.

Nevertheless, despite these flaws, as a diehard Superman film, I still have to admire this film for what it is: An attempt at a serious version of the Superman myth. If massive destruction results from his battles - well, that's what likely would happen if Superman actually existed. At worst, I view MOS as a noble experiment in that regard.

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On another note, given MOS having pushed the limits of what people thought that they would see Superman do and be placed in, do you guys think that Goyer and Snyder would go even further and do something by placing Superman in a situation within this film where people start asking Superman on why he doesn't do more for the world given his powers?

I mean, let's imagine if people started asking superman to liberate them from their tyrannical leaders that oppress them in their country (think a place like North Korea) or if people started gathering in groups and demanded that Superman execute a repeated serial killer that he's just caught?

If done right, this could be some very compelling drama to watch.
You know what you get when Superman starts intervening in human politics? Dr. Manhattan.

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Old 11-27-2013, 01:55 AM   #268
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 11

There is some hilariously bad and inept armchair quarterbacking going on in this thread tonight...

I'm growing tired of the "too much action" complaint. For one thing, it's got no basis in reality.

The world engine disaster sequence itself is about ten minutes long.

Now then...

A minute and a half of that is the terraforming explanation/Superman's pod explanation/planning sequence. 40 seconds of that is Jenny/Perry/Lombard. 45 seconds of that is a build to action as the plane takes off and as Zod discovers he can control his powers, which is essentially tension building. During the disaster, there are also two scenes comprising about 75 seconds of Zod facing Jor-El in the fortess.

That said...

While the Jenny/Perry/Steve sequence does takes place amidst the disaster, four minutes and fifteen seconds of the screentime during the disaster sequence are not action scenes.

Interestingly, amidst all the action, fully 20 seconds of this is Superman rallying and standing up against the gravity beam.

Bottom line, in that ten minute span of action during the World Engine disaster sequence, almost half of it, about four minutes and 35 seconds, is actually drama of some kind or story beats without action in it. Which leaves five and a half minutes of action/disaster.

When the bomb is to be delivered to Black Zero, we get about two minutes of screentime which are the plane flying and the heroes trying to get the Kryptokey into the hole.

We then see 40 seconds of Zod attacking the plane, Superman confronting Zod destroying the ship and it crashing.

There are about 10 seconds of Faora "action" before she pursues Hardy. It is then about a total of a minute and a half from that point until the time when the threat is over, the Kryptonians have been sucked into the Phantom Zone, the last debris has fallen, and Superman and Lois are safe.

So let's be generous and say 2 minutes and 20 seconds of action, if we count the stuff where Hamilton tries to get the key in the hole (which I don't think we should, but whatever).

That brings us to a total of seven minutes and 50 seconds of action. Eight minutes roughly.

The final battle between Superman and Zod is five minutes and fifty seconds long. 30 seconds of that is a dialogue sequence with Zod shedding his armor. Twenty to thirty seconds of that is Superman's reaction to killing Zod and Lois comforting him. In other words, there are about four minutes of action.

Seriously? You're all *****ing about 12 minutes of action during the climax of a Superman film? Despite the fact that there's almost 7 minutes of drama/story to help balance it out?

By comparison, I believe THE AVENGERS had 13 minutes of action in its climax.

I don't know...seems like pretty standard blockbuster fare. Maybe some of you are easily exhausted.

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Old 11-27-2013, 02:00 AM   #269
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 11

To anyone who would complain about "too much action" after seeing a Superman movie, I would humbly point out the name of the magazine where the character first appeared...


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Old 11-27-2013, 02:02 AM   #270
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 11

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For example, when Col. Hardy says "this man is not our enemy," you have to ask - really? It's surprising the military would say that given how much damage Smallville took.
Why would you ask "really"? Superman clearly isn't their enemy. He's helping them and protecting them.

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Or when we're supposed to feel tension over the potential death of four random people in the film's climax, it's hard to feel as much emotion as you should when you've just seen thousands of innocent people die in Metropolis.
I don't recall seeing thousands of innocent people die.

And even if we had, I don't see how that makes the life of four innocent people less valuable in context.

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I think it's ultimately a massive contradiction in the heart of the film. Superman is supposed to represent hope, but the colossal destruction and thousands of deaths that occur in the film simply would not have occurred if Kal-El wasn't living on earth.
The "hope" is that he is there to stand against Zod and the others, period. That there's someone out there who CAN stand up to that kind of threat, and chooses to do so.

There IS a contradiction in Superman's existence, in that his presence/existence leads to some other issues, but that's par for the course in superhero mythologies.

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Old 11-27-2013, 02:11 AM   #271
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 11

Watched the Nostalgia Critic's review of MOS. It wasn't anything too special, considering that pretty much every point that's been made by other people was discussed or mentioned in the video.. Though I did laugh at the ending when HISHE was referenced.

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Old 11-27-2013, 02:16 AM   #272
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 11

Just want to point out again that I do like MOS. With that said:

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Why would you ask "really"? Superman clearly isn't their enemy. He's helping them and protecting them.
Unless you count his destroying the 7-Eleven, the IHOP, etc. But point taken.

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I don't recall seeing thousands of innocent people die.

And even if we had, I don't see how that makes the life of four innocent people less valuable in context.
Snyder himself estimated that 5,000 people died in Metropolis during the climax. The point is that from an audience perspective, after seeing that level of death and destruction, it kind of numbs you to that climactic scene, even if the family is meant to be symbolic of the human race in general.

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The hope is that he is there to stand against Zod and the others, period. There IS a contradiction in his existence, in that his presence/existence leads to some other issues, but that's par for the course in superhero mythologies.
Sure, but I guess the sheer scale of the destruction in MOS is harder for people to get past, as we've seen from the extremely polarized reaction to the film, particularly the climax. It'd be awfully easy for someone like Luthor to blame Superman for a 9/11-scale human catastrophe, which I imagine will figure into the plot of the sequel (and could lead to some interesting plot developments, but kind of undermines Superman's status as a pure icon of hope).

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Old 11-27-2013, 02:24 AM   #273
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Still can't believe how great the suit looks.

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Old 11-27-2013, 02:26 AM   #274
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There is some hilariously bad and inept armchair quarterbacking going on in this thread tonight...

I'm growing tired of the "too much action" complaint. For one thing, it's got no basis in reality.

The world engine disaster sequence itself is about ten minutes long.

Now then...

A minute and a half of that is the terraforming explanation/Superman's pod explanation/planning sequence. 40 seconds of that is Jenny/Perry/Lombard. 45 seconds of that is a build to action as the plane takes off and as Zod discovers he can control his powers, which is essentially tension building. During the disaster, there are also two scenes comprising about 75 seconds of Zod facing Jor-El in the fortess.

That said...

While the Jenny/Perry/Steve sequence does takes place amidst the disaster, four minutes and fifteen seconds of the screentime during the disaster sequence are not action scenes.

Interestingly, amidst all the action, fully 20 seconds of this is Superman rallying and standing up against the gravity beam.

Bottom line, in that ten minute span of action during the World Engine disaster sequence, almost half of it, about four minutes and 35 seconds, is actually drama of some kind or story beats without action in it. Which leaves five and a half minutes of action/disaster.

When the bomb is to be delivered to Black Zero, we get about two minutes of screentime which are the plane flying and the heroes trying to get the Kryptokey into the hole.

We then see 40 seconds of Zod attacking the plane, Superman confronting Zod destroying the ship and it crashing.

There are about 10 seconds of Faora "action" before she pursues Hardy. It is then about a total of a minute and a half from that point until the time when the threat is over, the Kryptonians have been sucked into the Phantom Zone, the last debris has fallen, and Superman and Lois are safe.

So let's be generous and say 2 minutes and 20 seconds of action, if we count the stuff where Hamilton tries to get the key in the hole (which I don't think we should, but whatever).

That brings us to a total of seven minutes and 50 seconds of action. Eight minutes roughly.

The final battle between Superman and Zod is five minutes and fifty seconds long. 30 seconds of that is a dialogue sequence with Zod shedding his armor. Twenty to thirty seconds of that is Superman's reaction to killing Zod and Lois comforting him. In other words, there are about four minutes of action.

Seriously? You're all *****ing about 12 minutes of action during the climax of a Superman film? Despite the fact that there's almost 7 minutes of drama/story to help balance it out?

By comparison, I believe THE AVENGERS had 13 minutes of action in its climax.

I don't know...seems like pretty standard blockbuster fare. Maybe some of you are easily exhausted.
They *****ed about there not being enough action in Superman Returns and they *****ed about there being "too much" in Man of Steel(even though you've shown there really wasn't compared to another hugely popular comic book action movie).

Gods fighting each other and planet destroying alien ships in the middle of a huge city will create action(and destruction and death in the story itself).

That's just the way it is, folks. I mean, unless you guys wanted a few more LIFTING scenes to go with your 12 minutes of action.

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Old 11-27-2013, 02:27 AM   #275
herolee10
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 11

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Originally Posted by Axl Van Sixx View Post
Just want to point out again that I do like MOS. With that said:



Unless you count his destroying the 7-Eleven, the IHOP, etc. But point taken.



Snyder himself estimated that 5,000 people died in Metropolis during the climax. The point is that from an audience perspective, after seeing that level of death and destruction, it kind of numbs you to that climactic scene, even if the family is meant to be symbolic of the human race in general.



Sure, but I guess the sheer scale of the destruction in MOS is harder for people to get past, as we've seen from the extremely polarized reaction to the film, particularly the climax. It'd be awfully easy for someone like Luthor to blame Superman for a 9/11-scale human catastrophe, which I imagine will figure into the plot of the sequel (and could lead to some interesting plot developments, but kind of undermines Superman's status as a pure icon of hope).

1. Granted, I do think that Superman could have handled the 7 Eleven incident better but in the same time, he was going at Zod with a lot of rage due to the fact that Zod threatened the safety of his Mother.

Now the I-Hop, the only reason why Superman crashed into it was because he was saving an air force pilot from being killed by Faora.

2. I still don't get why people are bothered by the destruction in Metropolis. It happens ALL THE TIME in comic books and other media adaptations, and you don't see people complaining about it as much.

What would you expect to happen when two demi-gods go at it within a city? Plus, most of the destruction was done by Zod, not by Superman. People have to seriously stop blaming superman for things that he did not clearly do.

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