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View Poll Results: Critical & Public Opinion: What will happen?
The film will eventually become universally loved 3 8.82%
Opinion of the film will improve slightly 24 70.59%
It will become a cult classic 2 5.88%
Opinion of the film will get worse 5 14.71%
Voters: 34. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 02-24-2014, 07:04 PM   #1
bluearth
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Default Critical & Public Opinion: Will it get Worse or Better?

I just read Forbes' worst and best of 2013 films. Man of Steel of course was listed under the worst of 2013. But theres a couple of things that I noticed in the summary thats becoming something of a theme across most negative reviews.

For one, Superman is continually blamed for the destruction. It makes me wonder if people have even bothered to watch the film twice. I read another negative review last night that claimed the entire city was a wasteland with a 3 mile wide crater in the middle of it. Such hyperbole in negative reviews is not uncommon.

So I have a feeling in time people will come to appreciate Superman was not knocking down buildings with his fist and Metropolis is still intact and the Daily Planet and General ending scenes didnt take place 24 hours later. A really good youtuber made the point that Zack Snyder doesnt always tell you certain things but at times expects you to connect the dots in your head. Another filmmaker would have had a 6 months or 12 months later caption at the bottom of the screen during the ending, but Snyder overestimates the public's intelligence.

A real simple thing alot of people forgot about the Mark Waid review: He starts it out saying "It's not for me." This is a clear admission that his general dislike of the film was because it didnt suit his tastes. He wanted a Superman that spent time enjoying his powers, along with a general lighter, funner tone. So many people went into the theater expecting one thing, and got another.

Thus there was the disappointment which led to the negative glasses being put on. Its interesting that Man of Steel's 6.2 Rotten Tomatoes score should be enough to earn it a fresh rating like other films with the same rating, but instead it was given a rotten rating. Again, this can be attributed to people simply saying: It was good or OK, but not what I wanted: thumbs down.

The other complaint I keep seeing is the lack of dialogue between the characters. About 30 minutes into the film I realized it was intentionally being told like a comic book, with economical lines between the characters. For example, when Lois sees clark climbing the ice cliffs to the scout ship she says "Where are you going?" Its the simple, charming dialogue I could see ripped straight from a comic book. I think many people didnt realize this, and thus blasted the dialogue as being too simple etc

Even I myself required a second viewing to appreciate certain things, like the World Engine defenses. On first viewing I thought it was simple excess. On the 2nd viewing I saw it as it really was: a page ripped straight out of a comic book.

Despite being blasted by many for what they think is an attempt to be the Dark Knight, this film is loaded with campy comic book style moments and set pieces, something the Dark Knight trilogy did not have at all, perhaps largely due to a real comic book fan like Snyder being the director and not Nolan. The exaggerated dress of the Kryptonian counsel, and of course the World Engine defenses are spectacular camp which separate the film from the Dark Knight trilogy easily.

My point? Man of Steel is easily the most misunderstood film I can remember in quite some time. Does this mean critical and public opinion of the film will improve in time? I think so, but not to the point where it universally liked. Snyder requires the viewer to connect many dots, something modern audiences and critics arent too keen on doing.

I think it will end up being a cult classic.


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Old 02-24-2014, 08:35 PM   #2
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Default Re: Critical & Public Opinion: Will it get Worse or Better?

It's indeed interesting to see what information or opinions will last or prevail in time.

Reminds me of how LOST will be stuck with the legacy of "they were dead the whole time", even though they weren't...

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Old 02-24-2014, 10:30 PM   #3
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Default Re: Critical & Public Opinion: Will it get Worse or Better?

I think MOS's rep will improve slightly, specially if the sequel is better.

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Old 02-25-2014, 12:37 AM   #4
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Default Re: Critical & Public Opinion: Will it get Worse or Better?

good question.

if BvS came out earlier, the perception on MOS would definitely improved a lot. as MOS isn't complete in establishing superman to the world.

however, as for now, i think the general public just don't care. it's just another commercial blockbuster movie last year like WWZ or pacific rim, left no significants.

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Old 02-25-2014, 03:22 AM   #5
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Default Re: Critical & Public Opinion: Will it get Worse or Better?

I have no way of knowing this or even giving evidence, but it would not surprise me in the least if it is indeed more respected and admired as time goes on, and is even a well thought of touchstone for many creators in the future involved with the character. I find the rewards of re-watching the film to be pretty high.

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Old 02-25-2014, 02:58 PM   #6
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Default Re: Critical & Public Opinion: Will it get Worse or Better?

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Originally Posted by Senator Pleasury View Post
I think MOS's rep will improve slightly, specially if the sequel is better.

Agree with that.

As far as MOS by itself, people who are fans of this particular version of Superman (like myself) aren't going to change their opinions, that it was awesome. People who vastly preferred Donner's Superman, will probably lessen their dislike slightly over time, but still not like it in years to come. And people in the middle will probably forget about it and go see whatever new superhero film is out at the moment.

Personally, I think a lot of people let the perceived negative things about the film outweigh the positives. But that's just IMO.

It is possible to grow to enjoy a film, I hated Tron Legacy the first time I saw it, but watched it a couple of times on DVD (well actually, put it on for ambient noise while cleaning the house) and after a while began to enjoy it. Can't see a lot of people doing that with MOS, but who knows
Blu-ray/DVD sales have been very strong.

But in terms of its overall reception, I can't see it gaining a much more favourable reputation (amongst those that didn't like it the first time), unless the sequel is much better received. Which means it will have to keep the things that those who enjoyed MOS loved, but tweak elements of the story and approach so that those who didn't like MOS can engage with it and enjoy it as well.

That's a big ask, and while I'm not sure Goyer is up to it, I think Snyder is, with Terrio's help ( just looking at Snyder's films I'd argue that they are generally getting better and better, with Sucker punch being a big dip in that progression). Maybe Nolan being much more hands off with this one will actually help.

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Old 02-25-2014, 03:10 PM   #7
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Default Re: Critical & Public Opinion: Will it get Worse or Better?

Its amazing what a beloved sequel can do, look at how many people saw Batman Begins after seeing the Dark Knight. I actually prefer Begins now to the Dark Knight so maybe some love from folks will build with Man of Steel after Superman Batman.

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Old 02-25-2014, 04:14 PM   #8
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Its amazing what a beloved sequel can do, look at how many people saw Batman Begins after seeing the Dark Knight. I actually prefer Begins now to the Dark Knight so maybe some love from folks will build with Man of Steel after Superman Batman.
Difference is that Begins never had an actual bad reputation. It's just that not many people saw it, after B&R and many people saying it was a prequel.

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Old 02-25-2014, 06:37 PM   #9
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Default Re: Critical & Public Opinion: Will it get Worse or Better?

MOS didn't have a bad reputation with the GA though....

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Old 02-25-2014, 08:23 PM   #10
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Default Re: Critical & Public Opinion: Will it get Worse or Better?

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MOS didn't have a bad reputation with the GA though....
I think the majority of the general public was "fine" with it.

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Old 02-26-2014, 07:44 AM   #11
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Default Re: Critical & Public Opinion: Will it get Worse or Better?

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Difference is that Begins never had an actual bad reputation. It's just that not many people saw it, after B&R and many people saying it was a prequel.
Yes but my point was how a sequel can make people view a film differently or even view a film at all. Begins did get labelled boring by a lot of people who changed their mind upon seeing the sequel.

MOS is actually more critically slammed than anything else. Outside of here I haven't heard many say it was bad or they didn't like it.

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Old 02-26-2014, 09:16 AM   #12
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Default Re: Critical & Public Opinion: Will it get Worse or Better?

I find it interesting to compare to Thor TDW.

MOS has the same average rating on RT (6.2), a higher Top Critic average rating (6.2 > 5.4) and Top Critic tomatometer (53% > 41%), and also a higher Metacritic score (55 > 54).

Yet I seem to see people talk about Thor TDW like it had a better critical reception. The power of the tomatometer methinks, and the imagery of a green rotten tomato vs a fresh one. Because of that, I see MOS's reception staying poor and Thor's staying good.


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Old 02-26-2014, 11:09 PM   #13
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Default Re: Critical & Public Opinion: Will it get Worse or Better?

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I find it interesting to compare to Thor TDW.

MOS has the same average rating on RT (6.2), a higher Top Critic average rating (6.2 > 5.4) and Top Critic tomatometer (53% > 41%), and also a higher Metacritic score (55 > 54).

Yet I seem to see people talk about Thor TDW like it had a better critical reception. The power of the tomatometer methinks, and the imagery of a green rotten tomato vs a fresh one. Because of that, I see MOS's reception staying poor and Thor's staying good.
u mean they gave low rating but fresh remark for Thor 2 more as compare to MOS?

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Old 03-26-2014, 01:15 AM   #14
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Interesting.

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Old 03-26-2014, 04:37 AM   #15
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Default Re: Critical & Public Opinion: Will it get Worse or Better?

Why isn't there an "Opinion will stay the same" option?

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Old 03-26-2014, 04:44 AM   #16
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Default Re: Critical & Public Opinion: Will it get Worse or Better?

Critics give ratings to movies they review, in addition they are asked to classify it as fresh or rotten.

Both average ratings and percentage of fresh tomatoes are independent of each other, both are decided by critics.

The RT system then takes average of ratings which is separate to percentage of fresh tomatoes. A Critic may give a movie reasonably high rating (for example - 6/10) but classify it as rotten.

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Old 03-26-2014, 08:24 AM   #17
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Default Re: Critical & Public Opinion: Will it get Worse or Better?

My opinion of the film was in between those that loved or hated it. Got to assume the general consensus will be around that middle ground in five years. Probably at the same level as Incredible Hulk and Iron Man 2.

I think it got the response that DC needed to finally recognize the positives and negatives of the motifs they've been using since Batman Begins.

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GL: 4/10. SR: 6.5/10. BB: 8/10. TDK: 9/10. TDKR: 5/10. MOS: 6/10.

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Old 03-26-2014, 02:37 PM   #18
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Default Re: Critical & Public Opinion: Will it get Worse or Better?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluearth View Post
I just read Forbes' worst and best of 2013 films. Man of Steel of course was listed under the worst of 2013. But theres a couple of things that I noticed in the summary thats becoming something of a theme across most negative reviews.

For one, Superman is continually blamed for the destruction. It makes me wonder if people have even bothered to watch the film twice. I read another negative review last night that claimed the entire city was a wasteland with a 3 mile wide crater in the middle of it. Such hyperbole in negative reviews is not uncommon.

So I have a feeling in time people will come to appreciate Superman was not knocking down buildings with his fist and Metropolis is still intact and the Daily Planet and General ending scenes didnt take place 24 hours later. A really good youtuber made the point that Zack Snyder doesnt always tell you certain things but at times expects you to connect the dots in your head. Another filmmaker would have had a 6 months or 12 months later caption at the bottom of the screen during the ending, but Snyder overestimates the public's intelligence.
I get what your saying, and I have seen reviews that, as you say, have a problem with Superman causing destruction (some instances of which I can relate too).

But I think most of the complaints are just about the level of destruction in general. The 'this is too much like transformers' vibe.

Now personally, the destruction didn't bother me, because... Well... It's only logical that if two super powered beings fight in a city, buildings will be damaged/toppled, glass shattered, cars smashed etc... Anyone who has seen STAS should have been expecting that.

But I think there is just a general sense of critics having a negative opinion of that level of destruction in a film... As though it's somehow just 'flashy' attempts at thrilling audiences in a cheap way.

Thing is, action is what everyone was screaming out for after SR. I think it was just impossible to guage what kind of action would get a good response from audiences and critics alike.

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A real simple thing alot of people forgot about the Mark Waid review: He starts it out saying "It's not for me." This is a clear admission that his general dislike of the film was because it didnt suit his tastes. He wanted a Superman that spent time enjoying his powers, along with a general lighter, funner tone. So many people went into the theater expecting one thing, and got another.

Thus there was the disappointment which led to the negative glasses being put on. Its interesting that Man of Steel's 6.2 Rotten Tomatoes score should be enough to earn it a fresh rating like other films with the same rating, but instead it was given a rotten rating. Again, this can be attributed to people simply saying: It was good or OK, but not what I wanted: thumbs down.
I think that's true, but then you can say that about ALL adaptions, and it still doesn't explain why MOS has received much more criticism.

I mean, there are reviewers of Batman and Spiderman films that give it the thumbs down because it 'wasn't for them', but they are not considered critical failures because of it.

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The other complaint I keep seeing is the lack of dialogue between the characters. About 30 minutes into the film I realized it was intentionally being told like a comic book, with economical lines between the characters. For example, when Lois sees clark climbing the ice cliffs to the scout ship she says "Where are you going?" Its the simple, charming dialogue I could see ripped straight from a comic book. I think many people didnt realize this, and thus blasted the dialogue as being too simple etc

Even I myself required a second viewing to appreciate certain things, like the World Engine defenses. On first viewing I thought it was simple excess. On the 2nd viewing I saw it as it really was: a page ripped straight out of a comic book.
Again, I agree with you that the dialogue would have worked on the page of a comic.

But that's the problem. It wasn't a comic. And the 'comic booky' dialogue in the film didn't work as well as they may have hoped for the majority of critics. It just came off as lazy, cliched, and in places hammy.

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Despite being blasted by many for what they think is an attempt to be the Dark Knight, this film is loaded with campy comic book style moments and set pieces, something the Dark Knight trilogy did not have at all, perhaps largely due to a real comic book fan like Snyder being the director and not Nolan. The exaggerated dress of the Kryptonian counsel, and of course the World Engine defenses are spectacular camp which separate the film from the Dark Knight trilogy easily.
I definitely agree it was far removed from the gritty, realistic style of TDK.

Which is actually what may have thrown a lot of people who'd followed the films production off... because they kept saying it was going to be a gritty and realistic approach like TDK... And then delivered the fantastical 'campy' piece.

Probably added to the dissapointment based on expectations.

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My point? Man of Steel is easily the most misunderstood film I can remember in quite some time. Does this mean critical and public opinion of the film will improve in time? I think so, but not to the point where it universally liked. Snyder requires the viewer to connect many dots, something modern audiences and critics arent too keen on doing.

I think it will end up being a cult classic.
I think it completely depends on how the rest of the franchise pans out.

I mean, if the next film is slammed even more, and any potential spin offs crash and burn even harder... People could look back and be like 'MOS was actually the best of the bunch'.

Equally, if some of the plots of MOS are furthered in the next movie and it succeeds critically, MOS will become a part of a bigger story, and perhaps with that perspective and context, a lot of the complaints will be answered (I.e. See what they do with the 'no kill rule' in future films).

It'll be interesting to see tho

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Old 03-26-2014, 03:00 PM   #19
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I wouldn't be surprised if the next film receives much harsher reviews simply because they're gonna be taking more chances and covering newer ground in terms of story, casting, and concepts. The next film will both be a sequel to MOS and a reboot to Batman.

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Old 03-26-2014, 03:08 PM   #20
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I wouldn't be surprised if the next film receives much harsher reviews simply because they're gonna be taking more chances and covering newer ground in terms of story, casting, and concepts. The next film will both be a sequel to MOS and a reboot to Batman.
I think this is exactly why the next movie should do better. Or at least why the makers think so.

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Old 03-26-2014, 06:54 PM   #21
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I would agree though I think the expectations will be much higher than for MOS because it will basically have to deal with not only "Its not like Chris Reeve" baggage which it already got for MOS but also, "Its not Bale and Nolan !" baggage which critics and fans will likely have to work through, in addition to Wonder Woman and Eisenberg Lex . I suspect it will be as polarized if not a bit more than MOS among the fans and critics because they're breaking much larger ground with this, than MOS .

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Old 03-26-2014, 07:16 PM   #22
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I would agree though I think the expectations will be much higher than for MOS because it will basically have to deal with not only "Its not like Chris Reeve" baggage which it already got for MOS but also, "Its not Bale and Nolan !" baggage which critics and fans will likely have to work through, in addition to Wonder Woman and Eisenberg Lex . I suspect it will be as polarized if not a bit more than MOS among the fans and critics because they're breaking much larger ground with this, than MOS .
I think the case is not the same. Audiences got used to have different Batmans long time ago, when Keaton was replaced by Kilmer and then Clooney. I speculate that everyone (well, most of people) will be saying "I don't care, Batman is in it."

Now, I'm not sure how many people had a real problem with Cavill, or Cavill not being Reeve. I think it had more to do with the tone of the movie that was all about how horrible was to be Superman and nothing about the world being in awe before this exceptional being.

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Old 03-26-2014, 08:17 PM   #23
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I think the case is not the same. Audiences got used to have different Batmans long time ago, when Keaton was replaced by Kilmer and then Clooney. I speculate that everyone (well, most of people) will be saying "I don't care, Batman is in it."

Now, I'm not sure how many people had a real problem with Cavill, or Cavill not being Reeve. I think it had more to do with the tone of the movie that was all about how horrible was to be Superman and nothing about the world being in awe before this exceptional being.
I should make it clear then that I'm talking about fandom and critics because I agree with you in terms of the GA. Fandom and critics were basically the groups that had the most issues with MOS , whether comparing it to Donner or not liking that it did things differently .

Though I would disagree about people not caring Batman being in it. Batman being in it is a major selling point so I don't think that people will be indifferent to the character being in it. They're gonna want to see it. But I would agree that the GA will be more willing to judge Affleck on his own terms as opposed to what Bale did, which is what I suspect fans and critics will do.

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Old 03-26-2014, 08:21 PM   #24
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I should make it clear then that I'm talking about fandom and critics because I agree with you in terms of the GA. Fandom and critics were basically the groups that had the most issues with MOS , whether comparing it to Donner or not liking that it did things differently .
Point taken.

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Though I would disagree about people not caring Batman being in it. Batman being in it is a major selling point so I don't think that people will be indifferent to the character being in it. They're gonna want to see it. But I would agree that the GA will be more willing to judge Affleck on his own terms as opposed to what Bale did, which is what I suspect fans and critics will do.
I said exactly that: "I don't care [if Cavill is not Reeve or whatever the problem is that I had with MOS], [because] Batman is in it."

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Old 03-27-2014, 01:17 AM   #25
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Oh, Gothch'ta. I agree. Yeah, I think its gonna bring in alot of people who may be sat MOS out or who had issues with it.

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